PuGing became so difficult since Morrowind.

Kneighbors · July 2017

I just noticed how many groups I started to leave which consist of cp400+.

Now CP doesn't means much. If the player isn't following guides or watches youtube videos there's no chance he will get to even mediocre dps of over 10k single target.

The main reason is the game can not be understood intuitively anymore. Not many players realize you must place AoEs and DoTs and then heavy attack. Most casuals go by the pattern "spam my strongest skills" which was working ok before Morrowind. But now he is running out of resources after 5 spams. Now you can easily witness cp500+ who is struggling to kill a mob in vet DLC dungeon.

I post this because I became a witness today to a group with 2 DD's of cp630 who get Grobul to 90% after he first laid down. Needless to say they couldn't kill enough netches and we lost the fight even tho my tank was holding alone between 30 netches (but couldn't res due to constant pushing). I was feeling amused leaving a group of 630cp DD's. Any average DD who put Necropotence and knows that you need to AoE+DoT+heavy can solo this boss.

Just feeling sad it turned up like this, I really liked playing in random groups. I liked to explain mechanics to new guys etc, but how can I explain someone how to gain more DPS during dungeon?

khele23eb17_ESO · July 2017

Kneighbors wrote: »

how can I explain someone how to gain more DPS during dungeon?

Didnt you just write: 'Not many players realize you must place AoEs and DoTs and then heavy attack'? Thats like one line :P

Tasear · July 2017

Vote to kick...kidding

Vipstaakki · July 2017

Tasear wrote: »

Vote to kick...kidding

Sheogorath is going to visit you tonight.

khele23eb17_ESO · July 2017

Vipstaakki wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Vote to kick...kidding

Sheogorath is going to visit you tonight.

And hes bringing cheese.

Bevik · July 2017

The problem is people don't know the basic mechanics. People don't know their skills, can't manage resources, can't act spontaneously, can't improvise when there is a situation they can't handle. And as you said they can't do proper DPS. No matter the CP when you are bad at a role you are playing. Should really do some ingame training session for new players or before entering, starting to play dungeons. I do dungeons a lot, I love them but I start to feel that if I'm not there on any char I play they won't make it. If I don't DPS on my new Templar Healer then they don't do damage, if I don't DPS on my Sorc Healer (changed to healer/sorc DPS to do dungeons faster) they don't do DPS, if I don't save their life as a tank and ress everyone everytime then they all dead and fail the dungeons. Not saying I'm pro. Saying the others are that bad, new players or bought the char or whatever but people really don't know the basic mechanics dungeon and role wise.
Sometimes I can't even explain the mechanics because they don't speak English.

Would be nice to have some targeting/assisting system anyway. So someone can be a Main Assist.

ArchMikem · July 2017

Kneighbors wrote: »

I just noticed how many groups I started to leave which consist of cp400+.

Now CP doesn't means much. If the player isn't following guides or watches youtube videos there's no chance he will get to even mediocre dps of over 10k single target.

The main reason is the game can not be understood intuitively anymore. Not many players realize you must place AoEs and DoTs and then heavy attack. Most casuals go by the pattern "spam my strongest skills" which was working ok before Morrowind.

You don't even need to watch other's guides and gameplay in order to "git gud". I learned all about Gear setup and Rotations practically on my own in-game, with maybe looking at a few builds posted online for ideas to make my own. All people really need to do is stop, look at how the players around them are playing, notice the differences, and adjust yourself. I think the turning point for me was a year and a half ago or so when I was mid Vet level in Sentinel and this guy farming Zombies started talking to me about my character, told me how my heavy armor and swords wasn't complimenting my MagSorc playstyle whatsoever and gave me pointers, even helped craft me new Light Armor to use.

disintegr8 · July 2017

I'd love to see a video of someone soloing Grobul in Vet mode.

For me the game has never been very intuitive and the only way to learn is for someone to teach you or use Google and YouTube. That has always been the case for me on PS4, not sure about other platforms. I have used these, can have all the right skills, food and potions slotted but still have it all turn to crap once the fight starts.

I can never remember rotations, cannot fight and track any buffs/debuffs, forget to reuse my potions, etc., etc. For some reason, in the heat of battle, everything I have tried to learn gets lost and my fingers all turn into thumbs. My DD's also always tend to melt mobs in no time but I have never had great single target damage.

What I am seeing lately in normal dungeons, are DD's with no AoE skills slotted. I am running a new healer through these dungeons for the new trophies and I am seeing DD's doing nothing but light and heavy attacks, killing mobs one target at a time. I end up putting out some HoT's and start assisting with the DPS just to speed things up.

akl77 · July 2017

I agree op, to learn how to dps is difficult in ESO, there's no explanation of rotations, no explanation of weaving, no explanation of aoes. Final fantasy online don't seem to have the problem.

KingYogi415 · July 2017

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

how can I explain someone how to gain more DPS during dungeon?

Didnt you just write: 'Not many players realize you must place AoEs and DoTs and then heavy attack'? Thats like one line :P

Have you tried telling these people to add volley or wall of elements to their rotation?

75% laugh and call you noob then get angry, the other 24% just ignore you.

Yesterday I have DD Q into a vet dungeon in double sword and board, then get angry when I only asked him if he had a lighting staff. This was a cp 630...

Go ahead and also try explaining light attack weaving to them while you are at it.....

Kneighbors · July 2017

disintegr8 wrote: »

I'd love to see a video of someone soloing Grobul in Vet mode.

For me the game has never been very intuitive and the only way to learn is for someone to teach you or use Google and YouTube. That has always been the case for me on PS4, not sure about other platforms. I have used these, can have all the right skills, food and potions slotted but still have it all turn to crap once the fight starts.

I can never remember rotations, cannot fight and track any buffs/debuffs, forget to reuse my potions, etc., etc. For some reason, in the heat of battle, everything I have tried to learn gets lost and my fingers all turn into thumbs. My DD's also always tend to melt mobs in no time but I have never had great single target damage.

What I am seeing lately in normal dungeons, are DD's with no AoE skills slotted. I am running a new healer through these dungeons for the new trophies and I am seeing DD's doing nothing but light and heavy attacks, killing mobs one target at a time. I end up putting out some HoT's and start assisting with the DPS just to speed things up.

KingYogi415 wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

how can I explain someone how to gain more DPS during dungeon?

Didnt you just write: 'Not many players realize you must place AoEs and DoTs and then heavy attack'? Thats like one line :P

Have you tried telling these people to add volley or wall of elements to their rotation?

75% laugh and call you noob then get angry, the other 24% just ignore you.

Yesterday I have DD Q into a vet dungeon in double sword and board, then get angry when I only asked him if he had a lighting staff. This was a cp 630...

Go ahead and also try explaining light attack weaving to them while you are at it.....

exactly what i wanted to say. I remember last time I tried something like that a dude with 2H sword told me that he is the one doing most damage in the dungeon and then cast a votekick on me, while my CM was showing above 80% group dps

code65536 · July 2017

disintegr8 wrote: »

I'd love to see a video of someone soloing Grobul in Vet mode.

For a magicka user, it's pretty easy to do. Lay down your Blockade, and other ground DoTs, and just heavy-attack the netchlings with a lightning staff. Tanks are pretty much useless on Grobull. And the damage isn't much, so you can do without a healer--your shields and self-heals will keep you alive, and since you're heavy-attacking the whole time, you'll have plenty of resources to shield as needed. Probably be easiest as either a sorc or magblade for their innate self-heals.

I imagine it'd be much harder to do as stam, though.

(I soloed Vet Darkshade II a number of times pre-One Tamriel, back when it was just known as Vet Darkshade. I haven't tried since the OT update, but it's really just more health and a longer slog.)

EnglishTea123 · July 2017

Marksman and Hawk = OP bow light attacks. Vet RoM has never been easier for me with bow light attacks now.

Sarcasm btw.... for those who don't get it...

SoLooney · July 2017

Tell them to git gud, if youre 400 plus cp and still cant get a proper rotation down, they are obvious skyreach babies and need to be carried

Magdalina · July 2017

Cp never meant much. You don't really need guides for 10-15k dps, just some common sense and paying attention. You can also still pull viable damage without doing heavy attacks. Supereasy open world doesn't really teach you that - or anything really - though.

Insomnia rex · July 2017

disintegr8 wrote: »

I'd love to see a video of someone soloing Grobul in Vet mode.

For me the game has never been very intuitive and the only way to learn is for someone to teach you or use Google and YouTube. That has always been the case for me on PS4, not sure about other platforms. I have used these, can have all the right skills, food and potions slotted but still have it all turn to crap once the fight starts.

I can never remember rotations, cannot fight and track any buffs/debuffs, forget to reuse my potions, etc., etc. For some reason, in the heat of battle, everything I have tried to learn gets lost and my fingers all turn into thumbs. My DD's also always tend to melt mobs in no time but I have never had great single target damage.

What I am seeing lately in normal dungeons, are DD's with no AoE skills slotted. I am running a new healer through these dungeons for the new trophies and I am seeing DD's doing nothing but light and heavy attacks, killing mobs one target at a time. I end up putting out some HoT's and start assisting with the DPS just to speed things up.

We duoed that dungeon past mw and 99% of the damage is avoidable with good movement. Pretty sure @code65536 is right, and it should be doable with a good mag sorc f.e..

GeorgeBlack · July 2017

The problem is that these dungeons are group content. It's not about newbies or VR vs CP or recovery changes.

The problem is that the guild model in this game makes people feel alone even when they belong to 5 guilds with 400+ members. Shout lfm in a trading guild and you'll be ignored. Maybe people even mute their trading guilds.
In real guilds the members play with each other and teach/help each other.
Good luck finding any such guilds these days.
Grouping tools are not the way for group content. Especially when there isn't a way to group xp people with xp people, and newbies with newbies, in order to each category to achieve their goal of the run.

RainfeatherUK · July 2017

How its it surprising that they don't know the basics, or just spam abilities when overworld questing is about as challenging an effort as a pop to the toilet. IJS lol :P

tunepunk · July 2017

I think one problem is that many people have one or two skills they spam as their DPS skill, only using one bar. I think there's never going to be an end to that. Many people don't even use their back bar.

One problem is, they find builds online that require 2 bar rotation but they don't use it. I myself is pretty lazy so I've made some builds that focuses on doing massive damage on 1 bar. Weapon swapping and keeping buffs and debuffs up seems to be very hard for some people, and I don't blame them. It's hard and takes a lot of practice.

Some solutions would be for ZOS to:

* Add some kind of set that disable back bar, but increase front front bar skills dramatically.
* Or sets that disable back bar but add much more damage to light heavy attacks.

I wouldn't mind sticking to only using one bar, if i had everything covered on that bar. Damage, self heal, some buff, and maybe some AOE. I rarely use back bar anyway unless it's in a longer fight, for dots and buffs.

Septimus_Magna · July 2017

I always like it when DDs keep attacking Grobul and the dmg is simply reflected back. Great skill and knowledge indicator.

Some ppl will take advise and some wont listen. I personally try to help players who are willing to listen and improve. If not, I either solo the boss if possible or just leave. There not really a point in trying if something doesnt work and ppl are not willing to change.

Malmai · July 2017

What is funny is when people watch videos of players melting down vet bosses in seconds but they dont know they have perfect rotations, perfect horn and spc uptime and all other goodie buffs... In pugs tanks and healers dont use horns, spc etc... And dont contribute to dps at all just making each boss longer to fight instead boosting team and melt faster... Also not every puger have perfect gear, like VMA, yellow gear,monster sets enchants etc...

code65536 · July 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

The problem is that these dungeons are group content. It's not about newbies or VR vs CP or recovery changes.

The problem is that the guild model in this game makes people feel alone even when they belong to 5 guilds with 400+ members. Shout lfm in a trading guild and you'll be ignored. Maybe people even mute their trading guilds.
In real guilds the members play with each other and teach/help each other.
Good luck finding any such guilds these days.
Grouping tools are not the way for group content. Especially when there isn't a way to group xp people with xp people, and newbies with newbies, in order to each category to achieve their goal of the run.

That makes no sense. Shouting LFM in a trading guild isn't much different than shouting LFM in zone chat. I don't mean to disparage trading guilds (esp. since I am the GM of one), but you gotta realize that people join trading guilds to gain access to a trader stall, not to find dungeon buddies or PvP compatriots. Yes, you'll find some good dungeon and trial runners in trading guilds, but you'll also find newbies too. Just like zone chat, where you'll find some really good players along with some really bad players. Why anyone would expect a trade guild's demographic cross-section to be significantly different than that of zone chat is beyond me.

People have five guild slots. If they decide to fill all five with trading guilds, that their problem. I have a PvE guild, a PvP guild, and a trading guild. I'm not going to ask for price checks in my PvE guild. I'm not going to ask for a Cyrodiil group in my trading guild. I'm not going to ask for a trials group in my PvP guild.

So the question is, why aren't you using one of your many guild slots to be in a PvE guild, dedicated to pledges, trials, etc., with like-minded people who help each other get better at PvE content, instead of lashing out blame at the 5-guild system?

TazESO · July 2017

code65536 wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

The problem is that these dungeons are group content. It's not about newbies or VR vs CP or recovery changes.

The problem is that the guild model in this game makes people feel alone even when they belong to 5 guilds with 400+ members. Shout lfm in a trading guild and you'll be ignored. Maybe people even mute their trading guilds.
In real guilds the members play with each other and teach/help each other.
Good luck finding any such guilds these days.
Grouping tools are not the way for group content. Especially when there isn't a way to group xp people with xp people, and newbies with newbies, in order to each category to achieve their goal of the run.

That makes no sense. Shouting LFM in a trading guild isn't much different than shouting LFM in zone chat. I don't mean to disparage trading guilds (esp. since I am the GM of one), but you gotta realize that people join trading guilds to gain access to a trader stall, not to find dungeon buddies or PvP compatriots. Yes, you'll find some good dungeon and trial runners in trading guilds, but you'll also find newbies too. Just like zone chat, where you'll find some really good players along with some really bad players. Why anyone would expect a trade guild's demographic cross-section to be significantly different than that of zone chat is beyond me.

People have five guild slots. If they decide to fill all five with trading guilds, that their problem. I have a PvE guild, a PvP guild, and a trading guild. I'm not going to ask for price checks in my PvE guild. I'm not going to ask for a Cyrodiil group in my trading guild. I'm not going to ask for a trials group in my PvP guild.

So the question is, why aren't you using one of your many guild slots to be in a PvE guild, dedicated to pledges, trials, etc., with like-minded people who help each other get better at PvE content, instead of lashing out blame at the 5-guild system?

Yup.

Magdalina · July 2017

tunepunk wrote: »

I think one problem is that many people have one or two skills they spam as their DPS skill, only using one bar. I think there's never going to be an end to that. Many people don't even use their back bar.

One problem is, they find builds online that require 2 bar rotation but they don't use it. I myself is pretty lazy so I've made some builds that focuses on doing massive damage on 1 bar. Weapon swapping and keeping buffs and debuffs up seems to be very hard for some people, and I don't blame them. It's hard and takes a lot of practice.

Some solutions would be for ZOS to:

* Add some kind of set that disable back bar, but increase front front bar skills dramatically.
* Or sets that disable back bar but add much more damage to light heavy attacks.

I wouldn't mind sticking to only using one bar, if i had everything covered on that bar. Damage, self heal, some buff, and maybe some AOE. I rarely use back bar anyway unless it's in a longer fight, for dots and buffs.

With all due respect, and understanding that everyone likes to play differently...there's already a grand whole lot of 10(11 with ultis) skills you can use(out of oh so many skills available). I really don't think the combat must be made any easier than that. What's next, removing all skills and only leaving light/heavy attacks(and buffing them accordingly so the oh so popular light/heavy attack spam becomes more viable in endgame content)?

Flameheart · July 2017

code65536 wrote: »

disintegr8 wrote: »

I'd love to see a video of someone soloing Grobul in Vet mode.

For a magicka user, it's pretty easy to do. Lay down your Blockade, and other ground DoTs, and just heavy-attack the netchlings with a lightning staff. Tanks are pretty much useless on Grobull. And the damage isn't much, so you can do without a healer--your shields and self-heals will keep you alive, and since you're heavy-attacking the whole time, you'll have plenty of resources to shield as needed. Probably be easiest as either a sorc or magblade for their innate self-heals.

I imagine it'd be much harder to do as stam, though.

This is right not just for soloing him, it concerns group play too.

Grobul as a magicka DD is ezmode, just wait til all adds are close together, then cast your ground dots and do heavy lightning attacks. Decent AoE dps + no sustain issues.

It's pretty different as a stamina DD. You have no weapon heavy attack that gives you stamina back and does a lot of AoE damage. People might move around somewhat and pull the adds out of your caltrops and endless hail. Times are over where you could spam Steel Tornado or Power Extraction to no end. Even with pots on cooldown, a shard or bubble all 20 seconds you might encounter the experience to be totally out of stamina in the execute phase. If your second DD is a total fail (or perma-dead like yesterday as I was there with my stamina NB) you need to have a good build specialized for PvE and experienced playstyle to master that alone.

In a good guild group we might need to down Grobul 2 times on average, in a PUG this might become a 4-5 times easily.

but on topic:

I agree somewhat to the TOs post. Pugging isn't impossible, but it's not that easy anymore to carry a group through a vet instance if one is a total fail. A player who was a noob/fail before might experience no difference, the experienced player (especially a DD) who has to lift the weight of another DD will feel that now much more intense. Add to that a healer who hasn't ever heard of support and my temporal arteries start to pump due to upcoming anger.

Actually the "heaving-the-floor-and-lowering-the ceiling-doctrine" ZOS announced as a reason for the Morrowind patch and CP sustain nerfs worked not at all for the "floor".

Asardes · July 2017

RIP pugging One Tamriel patch. Before that most dungeons were cakewalk.

tunepunk · July 2017

Magdalina wrote: »

With all due respect, and understanding that everyone likes to play differently...there's already a grand whole lot of 10(11 with ultis) skills you can use(out of oh so many skills available). I really don't think the combat must be made any easier than that. What's next, removing all skills and only leaving light/heavy attacks(and buffing them accordingly so the oh so popular light/heavy attack spam becomes more viable in endgame content)?

No but they could try to close the gap a little. I wouldn't mind having single bar, light attack spammers in my Pug if they were actually doing some decent damage. A seasoned player would always do more damage, with a good solid build and rotation, but the gap between a good player and a bad player restricts them from enjoying the same content in PUGS. (We were only talking about pugs here) They get kicked for not doing good enough damage, groups get grumpy for having to carry or kick them.

The gap currently. A bad player has a hard time reaching 10k dps. A good player can pass 30k dps. So I don't mind if Zos made some effort to close that gap a little bit so i could enjoy grouping with less seasoned players.

If you were doing VET trials, there's probably different DPS criteria you would need to meet, and most trial runs are with guilds, not Pugs.

Feanor · July 2017

tunepunk wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

With all due respect, and understanding that everyone likes to play differently...there's already a grand whole lot of 10(11 with ultis) skills you can use(out of oh so many skills available). I really don't think the combat must be made any easier than that. What's next, removing all skills and only leaving light/heavy attacks(and buffing them accordingly so the oh so popular light/heavy attack spam becomes more viable in endgame content)?

No but they could try to close the gap a little. I wouldn't mind having single bar, light attack spammers in my Pug if they were actually doing some decent damage. A seasoned player would always do more damage, with a good solid build and rotation, but the gap between a good player and a bad player restricts them from enjoying the same content in PUGS. (We were only talking about pugs here) They get kicked for not doing good enough damage, groups get grumpy for having to carry or kick them.

The gap currently. A bad player has a hard time reaching 10k dps. A good player can pass 30k dps. So I don't mind if Zos made some effort to close that gap a little bit so i could enjoy grouping with less seasoned players.

If you were doing VET trials, there's probably different DPS criteria you would need to meet, and most trial runs are with guilds, not Pugs.

That's the thing I don't get. Why does a bad player have to be able to do veteran content? There are all the overland zones and the normal dungeons with the exact same story lines and bosses. It's just pure entitlement.

Flameheart · July 2017

tunepunk wrote: »

The gap currently. A bad player has a hard time reaching 10k dps. A good player can pass 30k dps. So I don't mind if Zos made some effort to close that gap a little bit so i could enjoy grouping with less seasoned players.

Actually it was ZOS intent to change that with the Morrowind patch ("heaving-the-floor-lowering-the-ceiling"). Why am I not suprized that it didn't work ?

tunepunk · July 2017

Feanor wrote: »

That's the thing I don't get. Why does a bad player have to be able to do veteran content? There are all the overland zones and the normal dungeons with the exact same story lines and bosses. It's just pure entitlement.

So how are you ever going to be good at Vet content if you're not allowed to play vet content even as a cp630 character? Go practice rotations on thunderbugs in overland content?

The Scenario OP explained was about players who probably could do decent damage before by spamming their highest damage skill, but now they get out of resources too fast since Morrowind. The skill spammer playstyle has been nerfed further increasing the gap between a good player and a bad player, probably due to resource management.

I'm experiencing the same issues on some of my characters. I used to have no problems with resource management just spamming my my dps skills. I think ZOS wanted to make it harder to reach insane sustained dps. Good players adapt their rotation and playstyle. Bad players run out of Resources and do less damage. I think that change backfired furthering the gap between good and bad players.

zaria · July 2017

Flameheart wrote: »

tunepunk wrote: »

The gap currently. A bad player has a hard time reaching 10k dps. A good player can pass 30k dps. So I don't mind if Zos made some effort to close that gap a little bit so i could enjoy grouping with less seasoned players.

Actually it was ZOS intent to change that with the Morrowind patch ("heaving-the-floor-lowering-the-ceiling"). Why am I not suprized that it didn't work ?

As it was predicted by everybody outside ZOS.
Good players adapted fast, causal players did not, for the light attack brigade it did not affect them.