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PLEASE DONT BUFF the *** out of MagWardens.
-
seedubsrun✭✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »seedubsrun wrote: »The Warden is the perfect example of the need to balance PvP and PvE separately. Amazing in one instance and junk in the other. Really though they need to, first, fix the bugs with the class, then, adjust the passives so they're actually useful and helpful, finally, adjust the skills themselves. Only 6 of the 18 class skills do any attack damage with a couple others offering mild nothing damage. The lack of an execute should change. A fletcher morph could easily fill that role. There should be more damage use from the ice skill line too. The burst damage skills are fine. There just needs to be more options.
Wont happen. Its not simple to balance separate, and its not worth it.
Ice is a tank specific tree. You really want more unkillable pvp tanks, that is what you are asking for
This is exactly the problem. Warden has an ice damage buff...but no ice damage skills to take advantage of said buff. Its like giving a DK a flame damage buff, then making the ardent flame tree a tanking line instead of DPS and leaving cinder-cloud as the only dmg spell. This forces you are an ice-damage focused warden to use just a whole 2 class skills for ice damage(both of which are AoE only)...any other ice or frost damage has to come from destro staff line and ice-comet morph of meteor.
The one and ONLY skill they got 100% correct on warden is the Ice storm ult. Its a great ult. The healing ult isnt bad either, but the bear is a terrible ult, absolutely worthless for a magicka build.
Last i checked the passive is not an ice damage buff, right?
Really, it is a magic damage and frost damage buff and the mag warden has quite a few magic damage attacks?
Sure they can only fill four slots with frost damage skills - ultimate, winter revenge, the reflecting shield and arctic blast for example - but they have more than enough magic damage skills to throw in to make that buff at least worth the pixels used to display it, right?
i mean if i read it correctly, between class magic damage and frost damage spells they can fill two ultimate sl;ots and six ability slots with different magic or frost damage abilities. Even if you dont want to count the shield because it is reactive, that is still over half their available slots that that one buff boosts **if** they want it to see more play.
No, i am not saying this makes for an awesome build nor that ice staff is great and powerful, just pointing out that the line about no abilities and that buff is as "exactly the problem" just flat out incorrect.
It's not the only problem but it is one of the bigger ones. There's only 2 ice abilities that do damage that's useful to a DPS build so yes the frost damage buff is wasted for the most part if you're making a mag warden DPS build. The magic damage buff is nice for sure but animal companion line has 4 damage dealing abilities, the ultimate sucks for mag DPS, and the rest only give you burst damage which is nice but not for PvE. It feels like they made the mag DPS warden like they make stam characters where a couple skills come from your class and the rest from weapon lines.1 -
Saint_Bud✭✭✭✭Cliffracer dogeable and reflectable. Why is there a differnt to the nb skill ( forget the name).PVP Saint-Bud magicka Templar: AR 49
PVE Lord Victarion mDK : dro'm-Athra-Destroyer pre Morrowind retired for crafting
PVE Ramsay-Bolton magicka NB: Voice of Reason Clockwork City Patch retired
VAA hm/ VHRC hm/ VSO hm/ VMOL hm/ VHOF hm/ VAS hm clear
Stop playing PVE because its boring, content not disigned for melee players and class balance and sustain is ***0 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I don't know but maybe, maybe it's because it's instant you know. Oh and the healing part, yeah.Cliffracer dogeable and reflectable. Why is there a differnt to the nb skill ( forget the name).Edited by SanTii.92 on July 20, 2017 7:47PMWhen the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IcyDeadPeople wrote: »All I see is wardens are quite tanky, have tremendous burst damage and insane healing - the class seems a bit too strong in PVP.
I don't understand how they could be bad in PVE, somebody explain? They should be right up there close to templars as a healer, if not better in some ways.
People want to play them as Alpha DPS instead of support. If you are doing a speed run you don't want a Warden DPS other than that nothing wrong with them. Just have to tweak your rotation to take into account the delay in some abilities.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."2 -
Maikon✭✭✭✭
The counter, or better said the trade off is that it is delayed. Also that the class itself have very limited offensive possibilities, so they are stucked with the same skills and patterns which makes them predictable, one dimensional.Something needs to be done about Cliff Racer in PvP. Everything should have some sort of counter.
You can also counter cliff racer with block or shields.
Nothing needs to be done to the only actual dps skill a class has.Edited by Maikon on July 20, 2017 3:21PM0 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MagDens are horrible from a PvE perspective. You know. The side of the game that is most important. And you don't want them buffed, because of their PvP performance...?
3 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭As for balancing PVE and PVP serparately.. please gods no.
From experience in development lines, that would be essentially managing two different but linked code streams. Doing so and having them gradually grow more and more diverse is a nightmare usually slowing the progress down by at least half, increasing bugs and effort for support by four times and so on. Bugs would go thru the roof and fewer updates.
Eventually it *will* lead to one day a bean counter getting good enough numbers to show "this isn't worth keeping both" and one going away.
All that for the hope and dream that balance will be easier if they are separated???
just say no.Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."1 -
Chufu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I was told to switch from warden to sorc, because this class do less damage than sorcs.
I really like the warden...
And who complains about warden in PvP? Sorry, if you got killed, YOU did something wrong, not the warden.
#buffwarden
#bufforcEdited by Chufu on July 20, 2017 3:29PM- @OrcTalk on Twitter
- ESO-Skillfactory.com[EN/DE/FR] Skillplanner/Skillplaner/Planificateur de compétences
4 -
Maikon✭✭✭✭If you get zerged down, regardless of how many pigeons you took to the face, you were gonna die regardless, so don't make countless posts about how warden is op, because it is not.
MagWarden cannot be super tanky and have good dps at the same time, it just doesn't work like all the other classes.
You need to sacrifice one for the other.Edited by Maikon on July 20, 2017 3:33PM1 -
Tryxus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MagDens are horrible from a PvE perspective. You know. The side of the game that is most important. And you don't want them buffed, because of their PvP performance...?
There's more to PvE than DPS, and the Warden is very good at the other 2 roles in PvEEdited by Tryxus on July 20, 2017 3:38PM"Stand strong, stay true and shelter all."
Tryxus - Guardian of the Green - Warden - PC/EU1 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭notimetocare wrote: »seedubsrun wrote: »The Warden is the perfect example of the need to balance PvP and PvE separately. Amazing in one instance and junk in the other. Really though they need to, first, fix the bugs with the class, then, adjust the passives so they're actually useful and helpful, finally, adjust the skills themselves. Only 6 of the 18 class skills do any attack damage with a couple others offering mild nothing damage. The lack of an execute should change. A fletcher morph could easily fill that role. There should be more damage use from the ice skill line too. The burst damage skills are fine. There just needs to be more options.
Wont happen. Its not simple to balance separate, and its not worth it.
Ice is a tank specific tree. You really want more unkillable pvp tanks, that is what you are asking for
This is exactly the problem. Warden has an ice damage buff...but no ice damage skills to take advantage of said buff. Its like giving a DK a flame damage buff, then making the ardent flame tree a tanking line instead of DPS and leaving cinder-cloud as the only dmg spell. This forces you are an ice-damage focused warden to use just a whole 2 class skills for ice damage(both of which are AoE only)...any other ice or frost damage has to come from destro staff line and ice-comet morph of meteor.
The one and ONLY skill they got 100% correct on warden is the Ice storm ult. Its a great ult. The healing ult isnt bad either, but the bear is a terrible ult, absolutely worthless for a magicka build.
Last i checked the passive is not an ice damage buff, right?
Really, it is a magic damage and frost damage buff and the mag warden has quite a few magic damage attacks?
Sure they can only fill four slots with frost damage skills - ultimate, winter revenge, the reflecting shield and arctic blast for example - but they have more than enough magic damage skills to throw in to make that buff at least worth the pixels used to display it, right?
i mean if i read it correctly, between class magic damage and frost damage spells they can fill two ultimate sl;ots and six ability slots with different magic or frost damage abilities. Even if you dont want to count the shield because it is reactive, that is still over half their available slots that that one buff boosts **if** they want it to see more play.
No, i am not saying this makes for an awesome build nor that ice staff is great and powerful, just pointing out that the line about no abilities and that buff is as "exactly the problem" just flat out incorrect.
Magicka DK Flame Damage
Flame Whip
Engulfing Flames
Burning Embers
Eruption
Burning Talons
Inhale
Standard
Magma Shell
(I am sure I am forgetting others, these just come to mind)
Magicka Sorc Lightning Damage
Liquid Lightning
Boundless Storm
Volatile Familiar
Storm Atronach
Overload
Mages Wrath
Streak
Magicka Warden Ice Damage
Northern Storm
Winter's Revenge
Arctic Blast(based on health though, worthless for a DPS build)
NOTHING ELSE
To say this isnt a problem is to be completely dishonest. Sure, it also buffs magic damage, but that is worthless when you are trying to take advantage of an elemental build like you can with a sorc or a DK. If you want to do a magic damage build, you are better off running a NB or Templar, both of which have faster-acting, more attractive magic damage skills.
1 -
IcyDeadPeople✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Comfortably_Buzzed wrote: »IcyDeadPeople wrote: »All I see is wardens are quite tanky, have tremendous burst damage and insane healing - the class seems a bit too strong in PVP.
I don't understand how they could be bad in PVE, somebody explain? They should be right up there close to templars as a healer, if not better in some ways.
PvE requires high sustained DPS where as PvP tends to require high burst damage. There are other factors at play but this is a big part of the reason Warden's PvE damage is mediocre but in PvP they're a threat.
I don't have a clue about PVE, but sounds like you are saying they don't have enough DoT class skills. Is there not a way to compensate for this using skills from outside their class lines or certain gear sets? Some of the other classes have to rely a lot on weapon skills, for example, there are very few class skills with stam morph if you are playing sorc or DK.
Edited by IcyDeadPeople on July 20, 2017 3:55PM0 -
seedubsrun✭✭✭✭As for balancing PVE and PVP serparately.. please gods no.
From experience in development lines, that would be essentially managing two different but linked code streams. Doing so and having them gradually grow more and more diverse is a nightmare usually slowing the progress down by at least half, increasing bugs and effort for support by four times and so on. Bugs would go thru the roof and fewer updates.
Eventually it *will* lead to one day a bean counter getting good enough numbers to show "this isn't worth keeping both" and one going away.
All that for the hope and dream that balance will be easier if they are separated???
just say no.
You wouldn't balance them separately by tweaking each skill and/or passive in PvE and then also PvP. That would be nonsensical and as you put it a development nightmare. To reasonably balance them separately you'd have to look at battle Spirit most likely and expand it. Take PvE and balance the classes then use the restrictions and buffs within an expanded Battle Spirit to balance PvP. The damage nerfs to proc sets could be a rule within Battle Spirit. Restrictions on how many proc sets that can be worn at once could be on there. Even a limit to how many Eye of the Storm ultimates that can be used at one time by a group could be in there. I don't necessarily support all those ideas, it's just some examples of common beefs within PvP.2 -
Tryxus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »
If only vMA could be done as a tank or healer
You can: let the bear do all the dps while you heal and tank
"Stand strong, stay true and shelter all."
Tryxus - Guardian of the Green - Warden - PC/EU0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »seedubsrun wrote: »The Warden is the perfect example of the need to balance PvP and PvE separately. Amazing in one instance and junk in the other. Really though they need to, first, fix the bugs with the class, then, adjust the passives so they're actually useful and helpful, finally, adjust the skills themselves. Only 6 of the 18 class skills do any attack damage with a couple others offering mild nothing damage. The lack of an execute should change. A fletcher morph could easily fill that role. There should be more damage use from the ice skill line too. The burst damage skills are fine. There just needs to be more options.
Wont happen. Its not simple to balance separate, and its not worth it.
Ice is a tank specific tree. You really want more unkillable pvp tanks, that is what you are asking for
This is exactly the problem. Warden has an ice damage buff...but no ice damage skills to take advantage of said buff. Its like giving a DK a flame damage buff, then making the ardent flame tree a tanking line instead of DPS and leaving cinder-cloud as the only dmg spell. This forces you are an ice-damage focused warden to use just a whole 2 class skills for ice damage(both of which are AoE only)...any other ice or frost damage has to come from destro staff line and ice-comet morph of meteor.
The one and ONLY skill they got 100% correct on warden is the Ice storm ult. Its a great ult. The healing ult isnt bad either, but the bear is a terrible ult, absolutely worthless for a magicka build.
Last i checked the passive is not an ice damage buff, right?
Really, it is a magic damage and frost damage buff and the mag warden has quite a few magic damage attacks?
Sure they can only fill four slots with frost damage skills - ultimate, winter revenge, the reflecting shield and arctic blast for example - but they have more than enough magic damage skills to throw in to make that buff at least worth the pixels used to display it, right?
i mean if i read it correctly, between class magic damage and frost damage spells they can fill two ultimate sl;ots and six ability slots with different magic or frost damage abilities. Even if you dont want to count the shield because it is reactive, that is still over half their available slots that that one buff boosts **if** they want it to see more play.
No, i am not saying this makes for an awesome build nor that ice staff is great and powerful, just pointing out that the line about no abilities and that buff is as "exactly the problem" just flat out incorrect.
Magicka DK Flame Damage
Flame Whip
Engulfing Flames
Burning Embers
Eruption
Burning Talons
Inhale
Standard
Magma Shell
(I am sure I am forgetting others, these just come to mind)
Magicka Sorc Lightning Damage
Liquid Lightning
Boundless Storm
Volatile Familiar
Storm Atronach
Overload
Mages Wrath
Streak
Magicka Warden Ice Damage
Northern Storm
Winter's Revenge
Arctic Blast(based on health though, worthless for a DPS build)
NOTHING ELSE
To say this isnt a problem is to be completely dishonest. Sure, it also buffs magic damage, but that is worthless when you are trying to take advantage of an elemental build like you can with a sorc or a DK. If you want to do a magic damage build, you are better off running a NB or Templar, both of which have faster-acting, more attractive magic damage skills.
Again the buff is to magica and frost not just frost. there are about 8 different skills that cause these damage effects in the warden magica line. So there is nota problem with the buff as that figure is on par with the other classes for the most part. its at least as good as most damage producing builds slot since some use buffs and other types of effects, not just damaging effects in all 12 slots.
I would say the "problem" is someone deciding to take a mostly defensive line from a class and a mostly defensive weapon line (destro-ice) and deciding to build a DD around that.
I for one do not look at ice staff and the mostly defensive ice skill line and see dps role screaming at me to the point that i think "heck lets toss all those other damaging abilities" one bit..
if you do, one of us needs glasses or better contacts.
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
What makes me think that PvE is more important than PvP...? Well... Let's see here for a moment...
- Most zones are PvE-based (literally all but Cyrodiil)
- The best weapons drop from PvE environments
- Most of the quests are PvE-based
- There's tons of dungeons
- There's a handful of trials
- Most events are PvE-based (as they should be)
- There's less lag in PvE-based environments (Cyordiil is atrocious)
- Most if the player base indulged in PvE over PvP
- PvE is dramatically less toxic than PvP
- PvP is literally a game of who can out-cheese who
- Most of the people who lace ZOS' pockets are PvE'ers
Do I need to continue...? Please say, "Yes." so I can lay out more reasons why. Please do.
0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
What makes me think that PvE is more important than PvP...? Well... Let's see here for a moment...
- Most zones are PvE-based (literally all but Cyrodiil)
- The best weapons drop from PvE environments
- Most of the quests are PvE-based
- There's tons of dungeons
- There's a handful of trials
- Most events are PvE-based (as they should be)
- There's less lag in PvE-based environments (Cyordiil is atrocious)
- Most if the player base indulged in PvE over PvP
- PvE is dramatically less toxic than PvP
- PvP is literally a game of who can out-cheese who
- Most of the people who lace ZOS' pockets are PvE'ers
Do I need to continue...? Please say, "Yes." so I can lay out more reasons why. Please do.
Yes.
(I want to read more reasons cuz it's true)
I'm a PvPer and it's obvious the majority never step foot into Cyrodiil1 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭notimetocare wrote: »seedubsrun wrote: »The Warden is the perfect example of the need to balance PvP and PvE separately. Amazing in one instance and junk in the other. Really though they need to, first, fix the bugs with the class, then, adjust the passives so they're actually useful and helpful, finally, adjust the skills themselves. Only 6 of the 18 class skills do any attack damage with a couple others offering mild nothing damage. The lack of an execute should change. A fletcher morph could easily fill that role. There should be more damage use from the ice skill line too. The burst damage skills are fine. There just needs to be more options.
Wont happen. Its not simple to balance separate, and its not worth it.
Ice is a tank specific tree. You really want more unkillable pvp tanks, that is what you are asking for
This is exactly the problem. Warden has an ice damage buff...but no ice damage skills to take advantage of said buff. Its like giving a DK a flame damage buff, then making the ardent flame tree a tanking line instead of DPS and leaving cinder-cloud as the only dmg spell. This forces you are an ice-damage focused warden to use just a whole 2 class skills for ice damage(both of which are AoE only)...any other ice or frost damage has to come from destro staff line and ice-comet morph of meteor.
The one and ONLY skill they got 100% correct on warden is the Ice storm ult. Its a great ult. The healing ult isnt bad either, but the bear is a terrible ult, absolutely worthless for a magicka build.
Last i checked the passive is not an ice damage buff, right?
Really, it is a magic damage and frost damage buff and the mag warden has quite a few magic damage attacks?
Sure they can only fill four slots with frost damage skills - ultimate, winter revenge, the reflecting shield and arctic blast for example - but they have more than enough magic damage skills to throw in to make that buff at least worth the pixels used to display it, right?
i mean if i read it correctly, between class magic damage and frost damage spells they can fill two ultimate sl;ots and six ability slots with different magic or frost damage abilities. Even if you dont want to count the shield because it is reactive, that is still over half their available slots that that one buff boosts **if** they want it to see more play.
No, i am not saying this makes for an awesome build nor that ice staff is great and powerful, just pointing out that the line about no abilities and that buff is as "exactly the problem" just flat out incorrect.
Magicka DK Flame Damage
Flame Whip
Engulfing Flames
Burning Embers
Eruption
Burning Talons
Inhale
Standard
Magma Shell
(I am sure I am forgetting others, these just come to mind)
Magicka Sorc Lightning Damage
Liquid Lightning
Boundless Storm
Volatile Familiar
Storm Atronach
Overload
Mages Wrath
Streak
Magicka Warden Ice Damage
Northern Storm
Winter's Revenge
Arctic Blast(based on health though, worthless for a DPS build)
NOTHING ELSE
To say this isnt a problem is to be completely dishonest. Sure, it also buffs magic damage, but that is worthless when you are trying to take advantage of an elemental build like you can with a sorc or a DK. If you want to do a magic damage build, you are better off running a NB or Templar, both of which have faster-acting, more attractive magic damage skills.
Again the buff is to magica and frost not just frost. there are about 8 different skills that cause these damage effects in the warden magica line. So there is nota problem with the buff as that figure is on par with the other classes for the most part. its at least as good as most damage producing builds slot since some use buffs and other types of effects, not just damaging effects in all 12 slots.
I would say the "problem" is someone deciding to take a mostly defensive line from a class and a mostly defensive weapon line (destro-ice) and deciding to build a DD around that.
I for one do not look at ice staff and the mostly defensive ice skill line and see dps role screaming at me to the point that i think "heck lets toss all those other damaging abilities" one bit..
if you do, one of us needs glasses or better contacts.
Again, if you want to base something off of magicka damage...you are better off using nightblade or templar, both of which have better DPS. The whole point of Warden is that its supposed to fill the 3rd ELEMENTAL damage slot. Look at Ysgramor's Birthright set. How useless is that set? Its obvious ZoS made that set with the intention of cold damage being a viable elemental tree...but then they release warden with only 2 cold damage skills? No, the cold damage skill line needs a re-work, or the shalk/cliff racer skills need to deal cold damage to put it on a par sorc/DK. Just because cold damage is more focused on immobilization and slowing enemies doesnt mean it cant damage enemies. Thats like saying sing flame is more single target focused it cant deal AoE damage...patently flase, or since lightning is more AoE focused it cant deal single target...again false. Just because something has a specific focus doesnt mean it cant be flexible to a degree, just that it wont be best. I never asked for warden cold damage to be better than sorc lightning damage...just that it be viable. To accomplish that, the skill lines NEED a re-work. This is INDEED a problem.0 -
Betheny✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭And here's the problem - PVE (raid PVE) only cares about DPS, while PVP hates survivors.
We need the two balanced separately already.0 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭And here's the problem - PVE (raid PVE) only cares about DPS, while PVP hates survivors.
We need the two balanced separately already.
How true. I once went into PvP skyshard hunting on my health regen tank...I just walked along ignoring everyone because I was just after skyshards. I got so many people following me across half the map trying to kill me as I ignored them then send me hate tells. I wasn't trying to kill them, I couldn't if I tried...but they sure hated that they couldn't kill me.0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Again, if you want to base something off of magicka damage...you are better off using nightblade or templar, both of which have better DPS. The whole point of Warden is that its supposed to fill the 3rd ELEMENTAL damage slot. Look at Ysgramor's Birthright set. How useless is that set? Its obvious ZoS made that set with the intention of cold damage being a viable elemental tree...but then they release warden with only 2 cold damage skills? No, the cold damage skill line needs a re-work, or the shalk/cliff racer skills need to deal cold damage to put it on a par sorc/DK. Just because cold damage is more focused on immobilization and slowing enemies doesnt mean it cant damage enemies. Thats like saying sing flame is more single target focused it cant deal AoE damage...patently flase, or since lightning is more AoE focused it cant deal single target...again false. Just because something has a specific focus doesnt mean it cant be flexible to a degree, just that it wont be best. I never asked for warden cold damage to be better than sorc lightning damage...just that it be viable. To accomplish that, the skill lines NEED a re-work. This is INDEED a problem.
Bold - once again you look at half a buff and decide to ignore the other. Its just as flawed as looking at only the ice part.
italics - You and i totally disagree on what "the whole point" of the warden was. See, for me to conclude that the whole point of the warden was frost, specifically frost damage role, i would have expected to see a lot more attack frost capability and an offensively designed weapon to match it.
I believe the whole point of the warden was nature-based jack-of-all-trades, master of none and i think they achieved that.
But, hey, who knows right, its not like the devs said any of these things in writing articles about the warden and its skills...
Interested in creating a new character with this nature-based class?
or
If you create a Warden character, you will get access to a series of highly versatile skill lines that can help you heal, defend, and do damage.
or
With Winter's Embrace, your Warden manipulates the cold to create defensive barriers and shields. This skill line helps you weather your enemies' blows with abilities such as Frost Cloak or Crystallized Shield and even allows you to heal yourself via Arctic Wind.
or
At first glance, the Warden's three skill lines appear relatively easy to identify ( Animal Companions for damage, Green Balance for healing, and Winter's Embrace for tanking), making them welcoming to newcomers and experienced veterans alike.
or
The Warden class is an adaptable, support-orientated option for players who want to be able to fill a specific role while simultaneously providing assistance to others.
etc etc etc...
i am sure somewhere the devs told you (maybe in a personal email or singing telegram delivered by an orcish bard) that the warden's whole point was to be the ice elemental damage dps guy, right?
or is it possible that when you typed "the whole point of the warden" you just had a typo and meant to say "what i had hoped the warden would be"?Edited by STEVIL on July 20, 2017 6:40PMProudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »
What makes me think that PvE is more important than PvP...? Well... Let's see here for a moment...
- Most zones are PvE-based (literally all but Cyrodiil)
- The best weapons drop from PvE environments
- Most of the quests are PvE-based
- There's tons of dungeons
- There's a handful of trials
- Most events are PvE-based (as they should be)
- There's less lag in PvE-based environments (Cyordiil is atrocious)
- Most if the player base indulged in PvE over PvP
- PvE is dramatically less toxic than PvP
- PvP is literally a game of who can out-cheese who
- Most of the people who lace ZOS' pockets are PvE'ers
Do I need to continue...? Please say, "Yes." so I can lay out more reasons why. Please do.
Yes.
(I want to read more reasons cuz it's true)
I'm a PvPer and it's obvious the majority never step foot into Cyrodiil
@Waffennacht Say no more. I got you, bruh. More reasons as requested:
-The whole design of PvP (in a nutshell) is based on zerging and who has the bigger numbers
- A lot of people don't care for PvP, because getting emperor is pretty much dependent upon whether or not you're in a emp-sharing guild (it's horrible)
- The AP system is flawed at its very core
- Class imbalances are clearly seen in PvP environments, where in PvE not so much. The game clearly wasn't designed with PvP in mind as its core feature.
- General fighting mechanics (e.g. Stealth play) turns small-based PvP and solo'ing into a "gank n' spank" game.
3 -
Destyran✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »They're the worst PvE class, by a country mile. They desperately need buffs.
I know PvP is a different story, but this isn't just a PvP game. Classes need to be balanced for both modes.
The easiest solution would be to improve the class passives (warden passives don't do enough to buff damage at the moment) and give the bear an AOE attack when cast. If this makes them too strong in PvP, just make cliff racer dodgeable. Simple.
Reminds me of a stamina templar we just got nerfed. So... lets nerf warden0 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
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Again, if you want to base something off of magicka damage...you are better off using nightblade or templar, both of which have better DPS. The whole point of Warden is that its supposed to fill the 3rd ELEMENTAL damage slot. Look at Ysgramor's Birthright set. How useless is that set? Its obvious ZoS made that set with the intention of cold damage being a viable elemental tree...but then they release warden with only 2 cold damage skills? No, the cold damage skill line needs a re-work, or the shalk/cliff racer skills need to deal cold damage to put it on a par sorc/DK. Just because cold damage is more focused on immobilization and slowing enemies doesnt mean it cant damage enemies. Thats like saying sing flame is more single target focused it cant deal AoE damage...patently flase, or since lightning is more AoE focused it cant deal single target...again false. Just because something has a specific focus doesnt mean it cant be flexible to a degree, just that it wont be best. I never asked for warden cold damage to be better than sorc lightning damage...just that it be viable. To accomplish that, the skill lines NEED a re-work. This is INDEED a problem.
Bold - once again you look at half a buff and decide to ignore the other. Its just as flawed as looking at only the ice part.
italics - You and i totally disagree on what "the whole point" of the warden was. See, for me to conclude that the whole point of the warden was frost, specifically frost damage role, i would have expected to see a lot more attack frost capability and an offensively designed weapon to match it.
I believe the whole point of the warden was nature-based jack-of-all-trades, master of none and i think they achieved that.
But, hey, who knows right, its not like the devs said any of these things in writing articles about the warden and its skills...
Interested in creating a new character with this nature-based class?
or
If you create a Warden character, you will get access to a series of highly versatile skill lines that can help you heal, defend, and do damage.
or
With Winter's Embrace, your Warden manipulates the cold to create defensive barriers and shields. This skill line helps you weather your enemies' blows with abilities such as Frost Cloak or Crystallized Shield and even allows you to heal yourself via Arctic Wind.
or
At first glance, the Warden's three skill lines appear relatively easy to identify ( Animal Companions for damage, Green Balance for healing, and Winter's Embrace for tanking), making them welcoming to newcomers and experienced veterans alike.
or
The Warden class is an adaptable, support-orientated option for players who want to be able to fill a specific role while simultaneously providing assistance to others.
etc etc etc...
i am sure somewhere the devs told you (maybe in a personal email or singing telegram delivered by an orcish bard) that the warden's whole point was to be the ice elemental damage dps guy, right?
or is it possible that when you typed "the whole point of the warden" you just had a typo and meant to say "what i had hoped the warden would be"?
Sure, it buffs magic dmg, great. Now name another class with cold dmg skills that was meant to fill the 3rd elemental DPS role? Cant? Didnt think so. All classes have damage skills, my argument here is that the Warden's damage skills should be cold based, or have at the VERY least one more cold damage based skill, but instead they focus heavily on the magic damage to the exclusion of the cold damage. Its also true that the warden may not be the best cold dmg class like the templar isnt the best flame dmg class, but if this is the case, where is our cold damage DPS class? The fact remains that ZoS could EASILY have built the warden in such a way to fill this role and didnt. It would hurt nothing to have say fletcher flies, or shalk, etc be cold damage based. it would take nothing away and add in much more DPS viability via the Ysgramor set. my argument isnt that the winter's embrace skill line should be solely cold damage(the DK for instance has flame damage through multiple skill lines and the sorc has lightning damage through multiple skill lines). ZoS may well have intended for the class to be the way it is...but its poor design and would definitely benefit from changes making it more elemental like EQUIVALENT classes. Aside from lack of elemental abilities, the clunky delayed DPS abilities the warden class possesses are also poorly designed. Are you arguing that just because ZoS created it the way it is, that the class wouldn't benefit from a re-work of the skills? ZoS has ALWAYS supported the "play your way" idea with any class being able to fill any role, but here we are with ZoS failing to fulfill its promise of the magicka warden being able to DPS equivalent to the other classes.0 -
Tryxus✭✭✭✭✭
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Again, if you want to base something off of magicka damage...you are better off using nightblade or templar, both of which have better DPS. The whole point of Warden is that its supposed to fill the 3rd ELEMENTAL damage slot. Look at Ysgramor's Birthright set. How useless is that set? Its obvious ZoS made that set with the intention of cold damage being a viable elemental tree...but then they release warden with only 2 cold damage skills? No, the cold damage skill line needs a re-work, or the shalk/cliff racer skills need to deal cold damage to put it on a par sorc/DK. Just because cold damage is more focused on immobilization and slowing enemies doesnt mean it cant damage enemies. Thats like saying sing flame is more single target focused it cant deal AoE damage...patently flase, or since lightning is more AoE focused it cant deal single target...again false. Just because something has a specific focus doesnt mean it cant be flexible to a degree, just that it wont be best. I never asked for warden cold damage to be better than sorc lightning damage...just that it be viable. To accomplish that, the skill lines NEED a re-work. This is INDEED a problem.
Bold - once again you look at half a buff and decide to ignore the other. Its just as flawed as looking at only the ice part.
italics - You and i totally disagree on what "the whole point" of the warden was. See, for me to conclude that the whole point of the warden was frost, specifically frost damage role, i would have expected to see a lot more attack frost capability and an offensively designed weapon to match it.
I believe the whole point of the warden was nature-based jack-of-all-trades, master of none and i think they achieved that.
But, hey, who knows right, its not like the devs said any of these things in writing articles about the warden and its skills...
Interested in creating a new character with this nature-based class?
or
If you create a Warden character, you will get access to a series of highly versatile skill lines that can help you heal, defend, and do damage.
or
With Winter's Embrace, your Warden manipulates the cold to create defensive barriers and shields. This skill line helps you weather your enemies' blows with abilities such as Frost Cloak or Crystallized Shield and even allows you to heal yourself via Arctic Wind.
or
At first glance, the Warden's three skill lines appear relatively easy to identify ( Animal Companions for damage, Green Balance for healing, and Winter's Embrace for tanking), making them welcoming to newcomers and experienced veterans alike.
or
The Warden class is an adaptable, support-orientated option for players who want to be able to fill a specific role while simultaneously providing assistance to others.
etc etc etc...
i am sure somewhere the devs told you (maybe in a personal email or singing telegram delivered by an orcish bard) that the warden's whole point was to be the ice elemental damage dps guy, right?
or is it possible that when you typed "the whole point of the warden" you just had a typo and meant to say "what i had hoped the warden would be"?
Sure, it buffs magic dmg, great. Now name another class with cold dmg skills that was meant to fill the 3rd elemental DPS role? Cant? Didnt think so. All classes have damage skills, my argument here is that the Warden's damage skills should be cold based, or have at the VERY least one more cold damage based skill, but instead they focus heavily on the magic damage to the exclusion of the cold damage. Its also true that the warden may not be the best cold dmg class like the templar isnt the best flame dmg class, but if this is the case, where is our cold damage DPS class? The fact remains that ZoS could EASILY have built the warden in such a way to fill this role and didnt. It would hurt nothing to have say fletcher flies, or shalk, etc be cold damage based. it would take nothing away and add in much more DPS viability via the Ysgramor set. my argument isnt that the winter's embrace skill line should be solely cold damage(the DK for instance has flame damage through multiple skill lines and the sorc has lightning damage through multiple skill lines). ZoS may well have intended for the class to be the way it is...but its poor design and would definitely benefit from changes making it more elemental like EQUIVALENT classes. Aside from lack of elemental abilities, the clunky delayed DPS abilities the warden class possesses are also poorly designed. Are you arguing that just because ZoS created it the way it is, that the class wouldn't benefit from a re-work of the skills? ZoS has ALWAYS supported the "play your way" idea with any class being able to fill any role, but here we are with ZoS failing to fulfill its promise of the magicka warden being able to DPS equivalent to the other classes.
And that design right there is what messes up every class"Stand strong, stay true and shelter all."
Tryxus - Guardian of the Green - Warden - PC/EU0
