PLEASE DONT BUFF the *** out of MagWardens.

MLGProPlayer

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Comfortably_Buzzed wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

All I see is wardens are quite tanky, have tremendous burst damage and insane healing - the class seems a bit too strong in PVP.

I don't understand how they could be bad in PVE, somebody explain? They should be right up there close to templars as a healer, if not better in some ways.

PvE requires high sustained DPS where as PvP tends to require high burst damage. There are other factors at play but this is a big part of the reason Warden's PvE damage is mediocre but in PvP they're a threat.

I don't have a clue about PVE, but sounds like you are saying they don't have enough DoT class skills. Is there not a way to compensate for this using skills from outside their class lines or certain gear sets? Some of the other classes have to rely a lot on weapon skills, for example, there are very few class skills with stam morph if you are playing sorc or DK.

There aren't any good weapon skills for magicka classes other than wall of elements (which is already mandatory in every PvE magicka build).

The best PvE theorycrafters have been trying to make magicka warden work ever since Morrowind beta came out, but the class is simply too underpowered. On average, they parse between 5-10k behind the other magicka DPS classes which is not a gap you can close by swapping out a few abilities. The class needs some major buffs.

leepalmer95

Just need to buff the warden class dots thats all.

IcyDeadPeople

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Just need to buff the warden class dots thats all.

Hmm...maybe change deep fissure (which hits like a giant AOE truck in PVP) from delayed burst into a DoT, which might nerf PVP performance and buff PVE performance at the same time

Sarato

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Did i miss something?

Prepare..

Sarato

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Yeah reverse psychology isn't going to work.

..

Betheny

How about make the useless skills actually useful.

Sarato

Kay1 wrote: »

Cardhwion wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Balancing should be done in the following order: balance for noCP PvP, then balance the CP system so that it's balanced in CP PvP, then balance PvE around that. ZOS just doesn't want to do that effort.

I'd rather say: balance PVE first, and PVP as a distant second. The majority of this game is PVE.

The majority of noobs and casuals you mean, the majority of veterans and max levels only do PvP, that's how it works in every single MMO, trials and PvP.

lol

Sarato

@ZOS_AntonioP @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Excuse me for tagging so many, I just really want the community's thoughts on the matter to be addressed.

Sarato

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

MagDens are horrible from a PvE perspective. You know. The side of the game that is most important. And you don't want them buffed, because of their PvP performance...?

My opinion is they should be buffed in some areas and nerfed in others. So I want balance with the class. This thread is to withdraw people's thoughts and many agree. You're basically saying you don't care if they're too strong in PvP as long as they do well in PvE? How is that fair..

Mettaricana

Feanor wrote: »

The only problem is that every damage skill is delayed and has a long animation to boot. That should be solved, not the damage of the skills itself.

This right here both stam and mag warden are plagued by long animated heals, dmg, buffs even something as simple as netch takes too long

MarbleQuiche

Wardens can tank, heal or stamina DPS and have a role they can fill for each resource: health, magicka and, funnily enough, stamina.

Why does every class have to be able to do everything? Are they going to add a new healing line to sorcerer? Wait, why don't DKs have a stealth line? Outrageous!

Wardens are overpowered in PvP and, to be frank as someone who plays a magicka healer warden in PvE, they're overpowered there too. Heal as well as templars (I believe better, but don't tell them because they'll weep) while throwing out DPS that isn't invisible. Yes, they're at the low end, but coupled with their healing and utility they're overall off the scale.

Any buff to them would be a disaster for PvP. I don't care for the "PvE is valid too, suck it up" line. I mostly PvE and there are plenty of roles that a magicka warden can fill - they're not broken, they're just different. I also PvP. PvPers are usually way ahead of the curve when it comes to understanding a class' role and how to use it. Warden already dominates much of PvP, any buff to the magicka variety will decimate that whole part of the game.

ZOS will be making a tremendous mistake if they do this.

Vaoh

To everyone complaining about Cliff Racer in PvP - Wardens are in a very bad spot if not healing/tanking.

If Cliff Racer becomes dodgeable, the class spec becomes horrible. Cliff Racer props em up to be competitive in PvP, as well as providing those strictly noobie players that zerg in large numbers with a tool that they can actually touch you with for once before you oneshot them.

Should Cliff Racer become dodgeable, they would require a tremendous amount of PvP-related buffs to compensate, which you would also QQ about.

I recommend actually learning how to fight them. I have yet to come across any Magicka Wardens (with the exception of a few of the best players on my server running builds made only for 1v1s) that have been able to give me serious trouble. Unless you are getting zerged by large numbers (which you would basically die from regardless), or you fail to attack a Magicka Warden or apply any pressure to them whatsoever to warrant their casting of shields/buffs/anything else, then yes Cliff Racer will hurt a lot. Against my own Magicka Warden, the only people who have QQed as many of you do are those who freak out and spam roll dodge 3+ times trying to escape Cliff Racers It is very much an issue that is only getting this much QQ because it is a new class, which is understandable since the other four classes have been here since launch. Once you understand how to fight a Warden, the only time they will kill you is if you are getting zerged.

Another way to look at it - every class is annoying in a certain scenario more than others. For example, Jesus Beam spamming Templars are strong when zerging someone down, moreso than Cliff Racer spam. What happens when the next class comes out and it creates a situation that affects your gameplay as well? Are we going to cry for nerfs and try to make the class so weak that they are locked out of certain roles completely? (thankfully warden can make strong support builds....)

Gonna write up a thread soonish on how we can fix Magicka Wardens (and slightly buff Stamina Wardens) in PvE. It's important to not cause an overbuffing of the class spec in PvP unless Cliff racer is changed!

Morbash

timidobserver wrote: »

I did a trial on my MagWarden as a DD the other day. It is complete garbage. It needs some help in that area. They just need to do it in a way that doesn't break PvP.

Implying PvP is intact.

Ch4mpTW

Vaoh wrote: »

To everyone complaining about Cliff Racer in PvP - Wardens are in a very bad spot if not healing/tanking.

If Cliff Racer becomes dodgeable, the class spec becomes horrible. Cliff Racer props em up to be competitive in PvP, as well as providing those strictly noobie players that zerg in large numbers with a tool that they can actually touch you with for once before you oneshot them.

Should Cliff Racer become dodgeable, they would require a tremendous amount of PvP-related buffs to compensate, which you would also QQ about.

I recommend actually learning how to fight them. I have yet to come across any Magicka Wardens (with the exception of a few of the best players on my server running builds made only for 1v1s) that have been able to give me serious trouble. Unless you are getting zerged by large numbers (which you would basically die from regardless), or you fail to attack a Magicka Warden or apply any pressure to them whatsoever to warrant their casting of shields/buffs/anything else, then yes Cliff Racer will hurt a lot. Against my own Magicka Warden, the only people who have QQed as many of you do are those who freak out and spam roll dodge 3+ times trying to escape Cliff Racers It is very much an issue that is only getting this much QQ because it is a new class, which is understandable since the other four classes have been here since launch. Once you understand how to fight a Warden, the only time they will kill you is if you are getting zerged.

Another way to look at it - every class is annoying in a certain scenario more than others. For example, Jesus Beam spamming Templars are strong when zerging someone down, moreso than Cliff Racer spam. What happens when the next class comes out and it creates a situation that affects your gameplay as well? Are we going to cry for nerfs and try to make the class so weak that they are locked out of certain roles completely? (thankfully warden can make strong support builds....)

Gonna write up a thread soonish on how we can fix Magicka Wardens (and slightly buff Stamina Wardens) in PvE. It's important to not cause an overbuffing of the class spec in PvP unless Cliff racer is changed!

@Vaoh I'm not even a hardcore PvP'er (anymore), and yet I can manhandle most Wardens with my MagDK. Unless of course they are running: Vitality pots, resource poisons, and TrollKing 2pcs. If they aren't using those 3 things, I will dominate a Warden in a 1v1 scenario with my DK. And that's with ease. The greatest of ease.

The sad thing and plot twist is that they actually don't do enough consistent damage in order to be dangerous. Whether it be magicka or stamina. And their CC is lacking heavily as well. It's pretty much free AP or a free win (duel-wise), if a Warden challenges me. Those who get bursted down by Wardens, or fall for the obvious mind games? Those are the folks who seriously need to pause for a moment, and really evaluate their build and what's going on in their encounters. I'd rather fight a Warden (in any setup), than fight a ProcBlade or SpamPlar. Hell, I'd even deal with a Warden over a Sorc. And DK's supposedly are the "hard counter" to Sorcs.

Mind you, I'm primarily a PvE'er (ex-PvP'er) saying this. My talent in a PvE setting outshines my PvP knowledge and skill dramatically. Yet, I have no problems in the slightest whooping on Wardens.

STEVIL

@josiahva

So yeah "the whole point" was in fact actually "what you really wanted" right? That's the nut of it? You think they shoulda coulda oughta done it differently.

Ok

As for could the warden benefit from wholesale rework, I can say if you got to rework the warden into another cookie cutter dps brute that would NOT benefit the class.

Can there be tweaks and adjustments sure but the core of the warden is not meant to be top line dps but support and healing and versatility.
It succeeds at that.

the fanatic devotion some have to the holy grail of every option being top dps and willing to sacrifice every ounce of individualization to get there is not a "benefit" to the game, imo.

SanTii.92

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Just need to buff the warden class dots thats all.

Hmm...maybe change deep fissure (which hits like a giant AOE truck in PVP) from delayed burst into a DoT, which might nerf PVP performance and buff PVE performance at the same time

what that's crazy.

Sylosi

seedubsrun wrote: »

Wardens are overpowered in PvP ...

They aren't overpowered in PvP, they are good in a group, but then every class has builds that can be good in a group, and frankly wardens whilst good don't really offer anything so special that is a huge miss not having a warden, they don't have a skill like negate that if used well can totally swing the outcome of an encounter, anything a warden can do, can basically be covered by other classes, so sure they are nice healers, but guess what there are these things calls Templars that are better.

Then outside of that if you look at solo/duo roaming / skimishing, then guess what, the same two classes that have been best at that before Warden existed, are still the best two classes at that.

ssewallb14_ESO

As a magwarden in PvP, I'd be fine with them nerfing the racer and buffing other things (like the duration of some of the buff skills). Sick of birdtatos giving the class a bad name anyway.

Ch4mpTW

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

As a magwarden in PvP, I'd be fine with them nerfing the racer and buffing other things (like the duration of some of the buff skills). Sick of birdtatos giving the class a bad name anyway.

So in other words, nerf their main spammable? Resulting in collateral damage to the PvE player base (which is vastly larger than the PvP player base)? Because people are struggling to deal with something in PvP, and feel it's "overperforming", PvE'ers have to suffer yet again?

Meanwhile, people are still wondering why it is that so many PvE'ers can't stand the PvP'ers... Maybe, just maybe, if the PvP player base would stop asking for nerfs of this and that? Than the PvE player base wouldn't revile them so much for having so many skills and other things nerfed.

Think about that for a second... Stamina regen while blocking (BlockKnights in PvP), Sorc shield strength and overall shield durations, Bolt Escape, Crystal Fragments, DK Wings, Stealth damage, Templar DPS, proc sets, etc. All of which having been hit hard due to how they were performing in PvP. And mind you, people can claim some of those changes weren't made due to PvP and we all know that's a lie. No one was in a dungeon or trial complaining about those things. It was the constant threads popping up about how and that needs to be nerfed, because so and so got killed off in PvP by it.

leepalmer95

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

As a magwarden in PvP, I'd be fine with them nerfing the racer and buffing other things (like the duration of some of the buff skills). Sick of birdtatos giving the class a bad name anyway.

So in other words, nerf their main spammable? Resulting in collateral damage to the PvE player base (which is vastly larger than the PvP player base)? Because people are struggling to deal with something in PvP, and feel it's "overperforming", PvE'ers have to suffer yet again?

Meanwhile, people are still wondering why it is that so many PvE'ers can't stand the PvP'ers... Maybe, just maybe, if the PvP player base would stop asking for nerfs of this and that? Than the PvE player base wouldn't revile them so much for having so many skills and other things nerfed. Thinks about that for a second.

How is making their spammable dodgeable going to affect pve?

ssewallb14_ESO

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

As a magwarden in PvP, I'd be fine with them nerfing the racer and buffing other things (like the duration of some of the buff skills). Sick of birdtatos giving the class a bad name anyway.

So in other words, nerf their main spammable? Resulting in collateral damage to the PvE player base (which is vastly larger than the PvP player base)? Because people are struggling to deal with something in PvP, and feel it's "overperforming", PvE'ers have to suffer yet again?

Meanwhile, people are still wondering why it is that so many PvE'ers can't stand the PvP'ers... Maybe, just maybe, if the PvP player base would stop asking for nerfs of this and that? Than the PvE player base wouldn't revile them so much for having so many skills and other things nerfed. Thinks about that for a second.

There are ways to nerf it without affecting PvE, while achieving a net buff to PvE dps. You should stop knee-jerk reacting to literally everything, you'll probably enjoy life more.

SodanTok

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

As a magwarden in PvP, I'd be fine with them nerfing the racer and buffing other things (like the duration of some of the buff skills). Sick of birdtatos giving the class a bad name anyway.

So in other words, nerf their main spammable? Resulting in collateral damage to the PvE player base (which is vastly larger than the PvP player base)? Because people are struggling to deal with something in PvP, and feel it's "overperforming", PvE'ers have to suffer yet again?

Meanwhile, people are still wondering why it is that so many PvE'ers can't stand the PvP'ers... Maybe, just maybe, if the PvP player base would stop asking for nerfs of this and that? Than the PvE player base wouldn't revile them so much for having so many skills and other things nerfed. Thinks about that for a second.

There are ways to nerf it without affecting PvE, while achieving a net buff to PvE dps. You should stop knee-jerk reacting to literally everything, you'll probably enjoy life more.

This is the guy what wanted to remove PVP from game so his PVE experience could get better so go figure...
He is blind to any buffs/nerfs that would not impact PVP/PVE in slightest, let alone compromises

Sylosi

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Meanwhile, people are still wondering why it is that so many PvE'ers can't stand the PvP'ers... Maybe, just maybe, if the PvP player base would stop asking for nerfs of this and that? Than the PvE player base wouldn't revile them so much for having so many skills and other things nerfed. Thinks about that for a second.

Good PvE players were calling for nerfs, because mechanics were being completely trivialized (or even bypassed) due to powercreep, so nerfs were down to PvE aswell, though baddies couldn't understand that.

Which is of course a problem with some PvE players, they think (and i use that word loosely) all nerfs are bad, that nothing should be nerfed ever, because they don't care about gameplay, all they want are "shiny rewards", so anything that slows down their brainless pursuit of shiny things, regardless of how merited a nerf may be, is "bad" in their narrow little view, frankly that sort are the cancer on MMORPGs and are part of the reason the MMORPG genre is in the state it is in.

Ch4mpTW

SodanTok wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

As a magwarden in PvP, I'd be fine with them nerfing the racer and buffing other things (like the duration of some of the buff skills). Sick of birdtatos giving the class a bad name anyway.

So in other words, nerf their main spammable? Resulting in collateral damage to the PvE player base (which is vastly larger than the PvP player base)? Because people are struggling to deal with something in PvP, and feel it's "overperforming", PvE'ers have to suffer yet again?

Meanwhile, people are still wondering why it is that so many PvE'ers can't stand the PvP'ers... Maybe, just maybe, if the PvP player base would stop asking for nerfs of this and that? Than the PvE player base wouldn't revile them so much for having so many skills and other things nerfed. Thinks about that for a second.

There are ways to nerf it without affecting PvE, while achieving a net buff to PvE dps. You should stop knee-jerk reacting to literally everything, you'll probably enjoy life more.

This is the guy what wanted to remove PVP from game so his PVE experience could get better so go figure...
He is blind to any buffs/nerfs that would not impact PVP/PVE in slightest, let alone compromises

Can you truly blame me...? Ask yourself for a moment how many things received nerfs due to them overperforming from a PvP perspective, compared to the things which received nerfs due to them overperforming from a PvE perspective. It's ridiculous. Granted of course that none of this would be an issue, IF ZOS actually seperated the balancing of PvE and PvP. But since they've made it clear (on numerous occasions) that the concept of balancing the 2 separately will never take shape, all that is left is collateral damage. And let's not kid ourselves. Way more people partake in PvE, than PvP. So if the common denominator, AND lower amount of the player base happens to indulge in the same thing... What is the logical approach (when considering all things)? You tell me.

Now in this specific case, OP is asking that Wardens not receive a dramatic increase in damage. Due to the fact that in PvP, they're capable of doing a few parlor tricks and niche things here and there. That's goofy. It really is.

SodanTok

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

As a magwarden in PvP, I'd be fine with them nerfing the racer and buffing other things (like the duration of some of the buff skills). Sick of birdtatos giving the class a bad name anyway.

So in other words, nerf their main spammable? Resulting in collateral damage to the PvE player base (which is vastly larger than the PvP player base)? Because people are struggling to deal with something in PvP, and feel it's "overperforming", PvE'ers have to suffer yet again?

Meanwhile, people are still wondering why it is that so many PvE'ers can't stand the PvP'ers... Maybe, just maybe, if the PvP player base would stop asking for nerfs of this and that? Than the PvE player base wouldn't revile them so much for having so many skills and other things nerfed. Thinks about that for a second.

There are ways to nerf it without affecting PvE, while achieving a net buff to PvE dps. You should stop knee-jerk reacting to literally everything, you'll probably enjoy life more.

This is the guy what wanted to remove PVP from game so his PVE experience could get better so go figure...
He is blind to any buffs/nerfs that would not impact PVP/PVE in slightest, let alone compromises

Can you truly blame me...? Ask yourself for a moment how many things received nerfs due to them overperforming from a PvP perspective, compared to the things which received nerfs due to them overperforming from a PvE perspective. It's ridiculous. Granted of course that none of this would be an issue, IF ZOS actually seperated the balancing of PvE and PvP. But since they've made it clear (on numerous occasions) that the concept of balancing the 2 separately will never take shape, all that is left is collateral damage. And let's not kid ourselves. Way more people partake in PvE, than PvP. So if the common denominator, AND lower amount of the player base happens to indulge in the same thing... What is the logical approach (when considering all things)? You tell me.

I am disappointed.I was hoping you will list all of them

Btw, when you have 2 groups that indulge in different activities. Even if one is bigger, it is not logical to ignore the second.

mvffins

Character buffs and nerfs should only be done in consideration with PvP. If a class is weak in PvP the only way for ZOS to fix this is to buff some of their skills, but if a class is weak in PvE they could not only buff the skills but also change attributes of the mobs. When choosing to buff or nerf a skill because it is weak in PvE they are buffing or nerfing it in PvP at the same time even if it doesn't need it in PvP, but if ZOS chooses to change the attributes of mobs then it will only affect PvE situations and not PvP.

Sarato

@Vaoh MagWard is easy to kill for me in PvP, so I'm not against them due to any past experiences or biases. I want them balanced, if they have an incredible buff and nothing is done about cliff racer etc then it becomes UNBALANCED. See where I'm coming from?

EDIT: In fact I want to main a magden soon lol. I don't want easy mode.

Sarato

mvffins wrote: »

Character buffs and nerfs should only be done in consideration with PvP. If a class is weak in PvP the only way for ZOS to fix this is to buff some of their skills, but if a class is weak in PvE they could not only buff the skills but also change attributes of the mobs. When choosing to buff or nerf a skill because it is weak in PvE they are buffing or nerfing it in PvP at the same time even if it doesn't need it in PvP, but if ZOS chooses to change the attributes of mobs then it will only affect PvE situations and not PvP.

Mm this is very true, I feel like PvE should be handled differently by ALL stam or mag classes but will be fair and will not be frustrating as is PvP(Example: You die, you NEED to spawn to the nearest fort and can't just spawn where you died). AND if mobs and other specific configurations were made then the PvE community would be happier, as well as PvP since changes won't be negatively affecting it. An example to fixing downsides on limited classes could be extra PvE ONLY type of buffs.

leepalmer95

Sarato wrote: »

@Vaoh MagWard is easy to kill for me in PvP, so I'm not against them due to any past experiences or biases. I want them balanced, if they have an incredible buff and nothing is done about cliff racer etc then it becomes UNBALANCED. See where I'm coming from?

EDIT: In fact I want to main a magden soon lol. I don't want easy mode.

I've been running one for like a week, full pigeon spam mode with a 14k tooltip.

Highest pigeon hit was a 12.5k which i 2 hit a guy.

Highest shalk is 16k.

Good times.

Sarato

@leepalmer95 How powerful magwarden is......hey I just created a stamsorc btw, know of any good PvE builds, and are stamsorcs even good for PvE?