The issues on the North American and European PC/Mac megaservers have been resolved at this time. If you continue to experience difficulties at login, please restart your client. Thank you for your patience!
Players are already too tanky & now sharpened is getting nerfed too, so....
GoodFella146
✭✭✭✭✭
What now? It feels like there's a war on damage with the last couple updates.
So with Sharpened getting nerfed, where exactly are players supposed to make up this loss of damage? It doesn't take long to run into one of these unkillable tank clowns in Cyrodill that take multiple ppl minutes to put down. Heavy is too strong, healing is too strong, and impen is too strong, then on top of it the sword and board ulti is getting cast seemingly every 30 seconds....
We're always just supposed to run with a zerg and that's it? I mean granted these guys can't kill a skeever 1v1 but how is that fun gameplay? DPS should be able to break tanks down after sometime not have it be futile
So with Sharpened getting nerfed, where exactly are players supposed to make up this loss of damage? It doesn't take long to run into one of these unkillable tank clowns in Cyrodill that take multiple ppl minutes to put down. Heavy is too strong, healing is too strong, and impen is too strong, then on top of it the sword and board ulti is getting cast seemingly every 30 seconds....
We're always just supposed to run with a zerg and that's it? I mean granted these guys can't kill a skeever 1v1 but how is that fun gameplay? DPS should be able to break tanks down after sometime not have it be futile
7
-
TimeDazzler✭✭✭✭✭Major/Minor defile got health regen debuff so that will help to some extent, but I agree 100% tank meta is coming back.PC NA
Characters:Aldmeri Dominion Champion - Stamina Warden - AD
Tımë Ðâzzłër - Magicka Nightblade - AD
Ðazzler - Stamina Arcanist - AD
Sugar Deady - Magicka Necromancer - AD
Sprint v X - Stamina Sorcerer - EP
Tımë Ðâzzlër Ðk - Stamina Dragonknight - EP
Tımë Ðâzzłêr - Stamina Templar - DC
Time Dazzler - Magicka Warden - DC7 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lover mundus gives penetration. I can't see how the sharp nerf will hurt that much.6 -
gpreid81✭✭Lol just ignore us seems ppl just love to attack tanks to see how good they are and fail then cry Ignore us at you peril
3 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tanks lost sharpened on their offense bar, and defending on their defense bar.
On paper this does look troubling, but I would like to see if it's an issue before I say it's an issue.Edited by Strider_Roshin on July 14, 2017 12:48AM4 -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭1H+S shield ultimate and Resto ultimate while channelled should disable ultimate gain. This would prevent builds that cast them back to back so frequently using essentially the invulnerability time period to generate ultimate with ult regen builds.PS4 NA DC3 -
Scyantific✭✭✭✭✭
✭Knight-Slayer + Torug's with Oblivion enchants.
Literally right there in the set name. Knight Slayer5 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »1H+S shield ultimate and Resto ultimate while channelled should disable ultimate gain. This would prevent builds that cast them back to back so frequently using essentially the invulnerability time period to generate ultimate with ult regen builds.
Then the same should be done for all duration ultimates, whether its protection, HoT or DoT.Lover mundus gives penetration. I can't see how the sharp nerf will hurt that much.
You can gain back a lot of it, even get more than you had if you go all divines, lover and sharpened. Only penetration set that got nerfed was Kraghs.Major/Minor defile got health regen debuff so that will help to some extent, but I agree 100% tank meta is coming back.
I don't think so, plus this:
can kill tanks, its effective if done right.Scyantific wrote: »Knight-Slayer + Torug's with Oblivion enchants.
Literally right there in the set name. Knight SlayerGoodFella146 wrote: »What now? It feels like there's a war on damage with the last couple updates.
So with Sharpened getting nerfed, where exactly are players supposed to make up this loss of damage? It doesn't take long to run into one of these unkillable tank clowns in Cyrodill that take multiple ppl minutes to put down. Heavy is too strong, healing is too strong, and impen is too strong, then on top of it the sword and board ulti is getting cast seemingly every 30 seconds....
We're always just supposed to run with a zerg and that's it? I mean granted these guys can't kill a skeever 1v1 but how is that fun gameplay? DPS should be able to break tanks down after sometime not have it be futile
Ignore them, if you say they can't kill anyone, not even a skeever as you put it, they why pursue them? They can't kill you and you can't kill them. I have had that happen to me, a Damage dealing PvPer could not take me down cause he was all projectiles and I was a tanky DK with a lot of mag regen and reflects and absorbs. I could not kill him and he could not kill me, we simply walk the other way after a bit instead of wasting our time. Or you can do as said above, go with the Knight Slayer and stuff, which is basically the Anti high HP build set up. There is more ways around it then Penetration. Remember as well, a smart tank will stack mitigation that CAN'T be penetrated, so there is that too to consider.6 -
GoodFella146✭✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »1H+S shield ultimate and Resto ultimate while channelled should disable ultimate gain. This would prevent builds that cast them back to back so frequently using essentially the invulnerability time period to generate ultimate with ult regen builds.
Then the same should be done for all duration ultimates, whether its protection, HoT or DoT.Lover mundus gives penetration. I can't see how the sharp nerf will hurt that much.
You can gain back a lot of it, even get more than you had if you go all divines, lover and sharpened. Only penetration set that got nerfed was Kraghs.Major/Minor defile got health regen debuff so that will help to some extent, but I agree 100% tank meta is coming back.
I don't think so, plus this:
can kill tanks, its effective if done right.Scyantific wrote: »Knight-Slayer + Torug's with Oblivion enchants.
Literally right there in the set name. Knight SlayerGoodFella146 wrote: »What now? It feels like there's a war on damage with the last couple updates.
So with Sharpened getting nerfed, where exactly are players supposed to make up this loss of damage? It doesn't take long to run into one of these unkillable tank clowns in Cyrodill that take multiple ppl minutes to put down. Heavy is too strong, healing is too strong, and impen is too strong, then on top of it the sword and board ulti is getting cast seemingly every 30 seconds....
We're always just supposed to run with a zerg and that's it? I mean granted these guys can't kill a skeever 1v1 but how is that fun gameplay? DPS should be able to break tanks down after sometime not have it be futile
Ignore them, if you say they can't kill anyone, not even a skeever as you put it, they why pursue them? They can't kill you and you can't kill them. I have had that happen to me, a Damage dealing PvPer could not take me down cause he was all projectiles and I was a tanky DK with a lot of mag regen and reflects and absorbs. I could not kill him and he could not kill me, we simply walk the other way after a bit instead of wasting our time. Or you can do as said above, go with the Knight Slayer and stuff, which is basically the Anti high HP build set up. There is more ways around it then Penetration. Remember as well, a smart tank will stack mitigation that CAN'T be penetrated, so there is that too to consider.
That set isn't going to beat their healing so it's a waste. Yeah I guess you can ignore them but the whole point of PvP is to kill other players not stand around like an unkillable statue2 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What's so bad about not being able to kill someone IF he does no damage in return? The only issue with tank builds is that they can indeed deal decent damage while being tanky.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.6 -
Glamdring✭✭✭✭✭Dont attack tanks in the first place. They are totally useless alone, just kill of their friends.1
-
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Heavy armor meta coming back, spriggans going to be deadly, a lot of players will suffer from defending nerf on backbar weapoms. Just a prediction.0 -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Heavy armor meta coming back, spriggans going to be deadly, a lot of players will suffer from defending nerf on backbar weapoms. Just a prediction.
Tanks can pick up the lady mundus for 2.7k spell and physical resist now tho. Then go precise for crit heals.
Edited by GreenSoup2HoT on July 14, 2017 10:08AMPS4 NA DC0 -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What's so bad about not being able to kill someone IF he does no damage in return? The only issue with tank builds is that they can indeed deal decent damage while being tanky.
Well, tanks can still pick up skoria or seleane and let procs do the work for them.
I have no issues with tanks in pvp. Its as simple as ignoring them. Just like how gankers need to pass on 30k+ targets.
Edited by GreenSoup2HoT on July 14, 2017 12:03PMPS4 NA DC0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭What's so bad about not being able to kill someone IF he does no damage in return? The only issue with tank builds is that they can indeed deal decent damage while being tanky.
Even if "tanks" weren't able to get 5k+ weapon damage in heavy armor & deal atleast the same amount of damage as medium, it'd still be a problem just like it has been in the past, when heavy was more "balanced" and couldn't deal any real damage.
It's not particularly engaging PvP when your only option is to try and escape from that Invasion, roots/snares & cloak breaking AoE spamming nuisance.
"Unkillable" builds simply shouldn't exist because they lower the quality of PvP for everyone else.Edited by DDuke on July 14, 2017 12:18PM6 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭What's so bad about not being able to kill someone IF he does no damage in return? The only issue with tank builds is that they can indeed deal decent damage while being tanky.
Even if "tanks" weren't able to get 5k+ weapon damage in heavy armor & deal atleast the same amount of damage as medium, it'd still be a problem just like it has been in the past, when heavy was more "balanced" and couldn't deal any real damage.
It's not particularly engaging PvP when your only option is to try and escape from that Invasion, roots/snares & cloak breaking AoE spamming nuisance.
"Unkillable" builds simply shouldn't exist because they lower the quality of PvP for everyone else.
It's not only heavy armor. I consider something like this also as unkillable (or pretty close to unkillable):
I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.3 -
TheHsN✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dont attack tanks in the first place. They are totally useless alone, just kill of their friends.Dont attack tanks in the first place. They are totally useless alone, just kill of their friends.
in the mean time he is tanking you???!!!
:):) Plays:
Magicka SORC - PvE/PvP
Stamina NB - PvE/PvP
Magicka NB - PvE/PvP
Magicka Templar - PvE
Stamina Templar - PvP
Magicka DK - PvE
Stamina DK - PvE0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭What's so bad about not being able to kill someone IF he does no damage in return? The only issue with tank builds is that they can indeed deal decent damage while being tanky.
Even if "tanks" weren't able to get 5k+ weapon damage in heavy armor & deal atleast the same amount of damage as medium, it'd still be a problem just like it has been in the past, when heavy was more "balanced" and couldn't deal any real damage.
It's not particularly engaging PvP when your only option is to try and escape from that Invasion, roots/snares & cloak breaking AoE spamming nuisance.
"Unkillable" builds simply shouldn't exist because they lower the quality of PvP for everyone else.
Okay, so in other words, what do you think SHOULD be the purpose of tanks in PvP?1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »What's so bad about not being able to kill someone IF he does no damage in return? The only issue with tank builds is that they can indeed deal decent damage while being tanky.
Even if "tanks" weren't able to get 5k+ weapon damage in heavy armor & deal atleast the same amount of damage as medium, it'd still be a problem just like it has been in the past, when heavy was more "balanced" and couldn't deal any real damage.
It's not particularly engaging PvP when your only option is to try and escape from that Invasion, roots/snares & cloak breaking AoE spamming nuisance.
"Unkillable" builds simply shouldn't exist because they lower the quality of PvP for everyone else.
Okay, so in other words, what do you think SHOULD be the purpose of tanks in PvP?
Being hard to kill, not being impossible to kill. This includes 1v1 situations.
Oh, and not having 5k weapon damage & dealing tons of damage while also being a "tank".Edited by DDuke on July 14, 2017 1:10PM4 -
BNOC✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Okay, so in other words, what do you think SHOULD be the purpose of tanks in PvP?
Actually a good question that I'm sure will get a lot of people thinking - What is the actual point or purpose of a tank in Cyrodil? They're literally just pointless mass, contributing nothing but wasted time - Their end and ours.
You can't taunt players into attacking you so I honestly don't think they have a place in Cyrodil; unless you're looking for someone to soak up hits / lock people up at a choke or maybe run a scroll.
In BG's there's at least regular objectives for them to play:- Standing on a Dom Flag tanking a push
- Holding a relic in CTR
- Tanking a choke point for your team to take advantage of (Assuming players are still stupid enough to not walk right by the tank)
I don't know, seems pointless and in general I think most tanks in Cyrodil come down to a L2p issue, there's safety in being able to permanently block and mitigate a tonne of damage, it lets people who can't get kills on their own feel good that they're surviving for so long.
Who cares anyway, everyone avoids them because they're useless anyway.vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)
vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)0 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Things I do with my "unkillable" tank in Cyrodiil:
Use Unrelenting Grip on EVERYONE, pulling them into the zerg.
Slot Swarm Mother to pull even more people.
Use Reverberating bash to stun and debuff targets.
Use Guard on a healer to make them really hard to kill while supporting the group.
Use Choking Talons to debuff and root targets.
Use Shield Assault to snare mist from spammers, and to catch up with them and streaking sorcs.
Wear Fasalla's to debuff anyone that gets close to me.
Stand at the front lines and reflect everything that is being shot about, works more often then you would think.
All of those things, when done in a group can really mess with the enemies. Especially the pulling part. Nothing more fun than to pull someone from a breach, whether it be defending or attack, and seeing them get immediately nuked by everyone in your faction. Keep doing that on people and there will be less enemies really fast, cause they can't be resurrected by their allies if they died right next to your lines. I can't kill anyone with this Cyrodiil with the exceptions of people that are dumb enough to target me with projectiles. Once had someone use the bow ultimate when I did the spell wall ultimate, he shot himself to death.
I can be a problem, but I also got a big weakness, bleed and bursts, never been able to survive well against a target using 2 hander, and especially not a 2 handed Axe. Bleed goes through resistance. Stacking magicka DoTs on me will kill me too, as long as they are not applied by projectiles. You don't need an army to kill me, just the right skill sets. Got to work around my hard counters, same thing goes for all classes of tanks.
But again, if you can't kill me, and I can't kill you, then don't try it, waste of time. I like the fact that I can contribute to the fight as my tank, I should have a purpose, Tanks should not be useless in PvP. But I agree that they should also not be great damage dealers, which I don't see them being atm, only ones that are super hard to kill and still deals a crap ton of damage are shield stackers.2 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »What's so bad about not being able to kill someone IF he does no damage in return? The only issue with tank builds is that they can indeed deal decent damage while being tanky.
Even if "tanks" weren't able to get 5k+ weapon damage in heavy armor & deal atleast the same amount of damage as medium, it'd still be a problem just like it has been in the past, when heavy was more "balanced" and couldn't deal any real damage.
It's not particularly engaging PvP when your only option is to try and escape from that Invasion, roots/snares & cloak breaking AoE spamming nuisance.
"Unkillable" builds simply shouldn't exist because they lower the quality of PvP for everyone else.
Okay, so in other words, what do you think SHOULD be the purpose of tanks in PvP?
Being hard to kill, not being impossible to kill. This includes 1v1 situations.
Oh, and not having 5k weapon damage & dealing tons of damage while also being a "tank".
Maybe I'm wrong but wasn't the aim in cyro to play the map, to capture strongholds, outposts, resources, scrolls etc? So it should hardly matter if you need a gang to bash a tank down. I have yet to see someone truely unkillable who doesn't runs around a rock for ages. But kudos then to their LoS, in the open I never met someone a group couldn't bring down.
But I guess that plays into OPs opening statement:GoodFella146 wrote: »I mean granted these guys can't kill a skeever 1v1 but how is that fun gameplay? DPS should be able to break tanks down after sometime not have it be futile
If a DD should kill a Tank, but a Tank can't kill a DD, what is the reason to play a tank? To get bashed for a while? Okay, here I'm assuming that OP is right with "these guys can't kill a skeever 1v1".
Now back to your assumption, 5k wpn dmg, tons of hurt-hurt and adamant carapace.
If a tank can achieve 5K, a DD should be able to achieve even higher, right? Or should 5k be a glass ceiling for DD and tanks should have much lower dmg stats? I asume the latter.
So we have a few ways we can go from here:
First off, the developers could nerf any set that makes tanks a tank. Would be no good 'cause it eliminates tanks as a whole.
ZOS could change/ nerf all sets that allow high damage. Would be a lot of work and especially DDs would be touched by this.
They could change proc sets. ZOS is already doing this. But they will still deal a decent amount of damage. So should we get rid of them completely? Again, this wouldn't only hurt these unkillable bulldozers but also gankers, brawlers, DDs as a whole etc. You know where this is going.
Zeni "could" alter CP, Sets and classes so nobody could possibly be ever able to achieve high survivability with high damage. But that would be a lot of work, possibly leading into a lot more balancing issues than we have now.
OR, and this is what was already mentioned in this forum, ZOS could simply change the formula for block cost reduction. Right now, on live, flat values (e.g. from glyphs) get substracted AFTER percentual reduction. In combination with their last failed attempt to end permablocks by doubling the block cost ticks per seconds, this only hurts normal builds, but hardly touches permablocking tanks. If they simply substract flat values first and percentages afterwards + revert the ticks Zeni could make permablock a lot harder if not impossible.
For the math, look here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/355523/permablocking-and-block-cost-calculations-analysis/p1
And just like that, no more unkillable damagedealers.Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on July 14, 2017 3:03PM1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »Things I do with my "unkillable" tank in Cyrodiil:
Use Unrelenting Grip on EVERYONE, pulling them into the zerg.
Slot Swarm Mother to pull even more people.
Use Reverberating bash to stun and debuff targets.
Use Guard on a healer to make them really hard to kill while supporting the group.
Use Choking Talons to debuff and root targets.
Use Shield Assault to snare mist from spammers, and to catch up with them and streaking sorcs.
Wear Fasalla's to debuff anyone that gets close to me.
Stand at the front lines and reflect everything that is being shot about, works more often then you would think.
All of those things, when done in a group can really mess with the enemies. Especially the pulling part. Nothing more fun than to pull someone from a breach, whether it be defending or attack, and seeing them get immediately nuked by everyone in your faction. Keep doing that on people and there will be less enemies really fast, cause they can't be resurrected by their allies if they died right next to your lines. I can't kill anyone with this Cyrodiil with the exceptions of people that are dumb enough to target me with projectiles. Once had someone use the bow ultimate when I did the spell wall ultimate, he shot himself to death.
I can be a problem, but I also got a big weakness, bleed and bursts, never been able to survive well against a target using 2 hander, and especially not a 2 handed Axe. Bleed goes through resistance. Stacking magicka DoTs on me will kill me too, as long as they are not applied by projectiles. You don't need an army to kill me, just the right skill sets. Got to work around my hard counters, same thing goes for all classes of tanks.
But again, if you can't kill me, and I can't kill you, then don't try it, waste of time. I like the fact that I can contribute to the fight as my tank, I should have a purpose, Tanks should not be useless in PvP. But I agree that they should also not be great damage dealers, which I don't see them being atm, only ones that are super hard to kill and still deals a crap ton of damage are shield stackers.
If you're using those group utility sets/skills, then no wonder you can actually be killed with enough bleeds. Equip something more 1v1/1vX oriented and it's a different story.
Try 7th Legion+Fury for example - 5k weapon damage, tons of mitigation and Vigor that outheals all those pesky bleeds and other DoTs you might have on you, while you also deal more damage than medium armor builds. #balanced #wrobel
I also don't agree with the "if you can't kill me then don't try it" line - it's not always an option when you're getting hit by everything you wrote above: roots, snares, heal debuffs, cloak breaking AoE etc.
It might be fun for the tank and his/her zerg, but not for the other person.0 -
DHale✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you leave tanks alone they will be bored and drop the build.Sorcerna, proud beta sorc. RIP April 2014 to May 31 2016 DArk Brotherhood. Out of retirement for negates and encases. Sorcerna will be going back into retirement to be my main crafter Fall 2018. Because an 8 k shield is f ing useless. Died because of baddies on the forum. Too much qq too little pew pew. 16 AD 2 DC. 0 EP cause they bad, CP 2300 plus 18 level 50 toons. NA, PC, Grey Host#SORCLIVESMATTER actually they don’t or they wouldn’t keep getting nerfed constantly.0 -
ManDraKE✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yeah, buff sharpaned so running in medium armor is like running naked.
Players wouldn't be so tanky if it wasn't for the 1h&s and resto ultimate, nerf those and problem solved. Major/minor defile affecting healing recovery will help a lot.1 -
Scyantific✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you leave tanks alone they will be bored and drop the build.
lmao. My sorc negate tank is pretty much ignored these days by any group that knows what they're doing and I'm STILL not bored yet. Not everyone wants to be a 1vX hero or ~*sick-nasty kill machine*~. Some people actually get a rush from playing 100% support setups. Hell I have more fun with my healer in BGs than any of my DPS toons because it's so damn satisfying to swoop into a brawl, tossing out heals, guards, and resto ultis and just watching everyone go ham.
/derail0 -
Valencer✭✭✭✭✭
✭What's so bad about not being able to kill someone IF he does no damage in return? The only issue with tank builds is that they can indeed deal decent damage while being tanky.
The fact he can spam gap closers, keep resource poisons up on you, perma-root you, CC you whenever youre not immune, keep (healing) debuffs on you, heal allies, etc etc?
Dealing damage is 1 of a dozen things someone can do to be dangerous. It's also the only thing you can't do if you spec yourself to be so tanky you have almost no damage.
The bottom line is being tanky and hard to kill used to be something you needed to be skilled at before the ridiculous Dark Brotherhood buffs. Devs didn't like it, overbuffed heavy to the point of silliness and now any scrub can put on some heavy armour and do it. Game started going downhill from there. Get zerged by "useless" tanks everywhere you go.Edited by Valencer on July 14, 2017 4:26PM2 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭What's so bad about not being able to kill someone IF he does no damage in return? The only issue with tank builds is that they can indeed deal decent damage while being tanky.
The fact he can spam gap closers, keep resource poisons up on you, perma-root you, CC you whenever youre not immune, keep (healing) debuffs on you, heal allies, etc etc?
Dealing damage is 1 of a dozen things someone can do to be dangerous. It's also the only thing you can't do if you spec yourself to be so tanky you have almost no damage.
The bottom line is being tanky and hard to kill used to be something you needed to be skilled at before the ridiculous Dark Brotherhood buffs. Devs didn't like it, overbuffed heavy to the point of silliness and now any scrub can put on some heavy armour and do it. Game started going downhill from there. Get zerged by "useless" tanks everywhere you go.
Isn't that what a tank should do? Deal little damage but "taunt" in form of annoy people until they jump you instead of the glass cannons and healers behind? Standing there as a solid rock throwing cottonballs doesn't sound appealing, they have to have a use. Like I said before, if they fix block cost reduction this thread will become obsolete.0
