More magicka on magicka builds..

StereoLiz · July 2017

ForsakenSin wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

ForsakenSin wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

For 2 years I've been telling you how OP Necropotence is.

http://imgur.com/a/CPAfZ

well that only works in imperial city .. you are using imperial physique set with the Necropotence

Doesn't matter, you can stack at least 50% of that 7k mag that physique gives you (but without hp/stam and some regens of course) and achieve over 60k in Cyro. IC example allows you to keep good skills and rotations while also allowing use of destro/resto setup, Cyro requires a dual wield setup that although won't work against good players, can be fun against non experienced ones.

In IC you can go above 70k as a sorc and even higher as a NB. The point is, ever since soft caps got removed, nonsense like this started popping into existence.

for somebody that mostly dose pve i don' understand it , for me i love been able to get more out of my character to find out how to push out more damage ... why is this a bad thing ?

Its bad because its UNBALANCED. Sorc, warden - easy necro, nb - almost easy necro, dk, templar - almost impossible to use necro (only unrelable set pets). And there is close to no viable stam build with 70k stam. Even if stam user achieve 70k stam he can't take shields advantage of it.

ForsakenSin · July 2017

Aaa pvp vs pve got it

i can see your point from PVP view

Maybe when your are in PVP remove everything over 40k max stat, health magica and stamina ?

LegendaryMage · July 2017

ForsakenSin wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

ForsakenSin wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

For 2 years I've been telling you how OP Necropotence is.

http://imgur.com/a/CPAfZ

well that only works in imperial city .. you are using imperial physique set with the Necropotence

Doesn't matter, you can stack at least 50% of that 7k mag that physique gives you (but without hp/stam and some regens of course) and achieve over 60k in Cyro. IC example allows you to keep good skills and rotations while also allowing use of destro/resto setup, Cyro requires a dual wield setup that although won't work against good players, can be fun against non experienced ones.

In IC you can go above 70k as a sorc and even higher as a NB. The point is, ever since soft caps got removed, nonsense like this started popping into existence.

for somebody that mostly dose pve i don' understand it , for me i love been able to get more out of my character to find out how to push out more damage ... why is this a bad thing ?

It's a PVP thing. Everyone should always aim to make their characters as strong as possible, but there has to be a line that cannot be crossed. In the past, we had soft caps and for a reason.

The game back then used to be more about active combat, countering stuff and playing it well. Now, it's all about stacking stats, stacking maximum magicka, stacking weapon damage and spaming that one skill (I'm looking at you Dive spammers) ftw.

Subversus · July 2017

@Lord_Hev holy *** those shields

Lord_Hev · July 2017

Subversus wrote: »

@Lord_Hev holy *** those shields

My goal is to find a sweet spot to have enough sustain to run Dampen magic. My line of thinking: I don't need to waste magic shield-stacking when my shield stack can endure a full 5 second duration.

With a 17k ward, I might not even need to shield stack. My hardened ward and full health heal ward(21k) in that picture is about the same size as my overload build 46k magic Harness/Hardened shield stack(22/23k)

Lord_Hev · July 2017

31k shield stack with Dampen magic. 28k with Harness.

Biro123 · July 2017

More magica = stronger shields = more tears about sorc shields = more infused oblivion users = problem solved?

ofc, nobody has mentioned that more mag/stam = more damage done to those shields and bigger heals for everyone (although admittedly not to the same degree as the shield increase)

SodanTok · July 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

More magica = stronger shields = more tears about sorc shields = more infused oblivion users = problem solved?

ofc, nobody has mentioned that more mag/stam = more damage done to those shields and bigger heals for everyone (although admittedly not to the same degree as the shield increase)

People mentioned it. Without going to depth of how much of buff it is. Mag has simply better access to % stat increase and to defense scaling with resources more than healing does. So simply stated. Magicka did gain more than stamina out of this change. The more max stat they were focused the better for them. Necropotence mag wardens with inner light, sleet storm and high elf passive in PVP will just cry with happiness. While someone like nonSorc stam khajiit gets the lowest possible gain these changes.

If it has any impact on balance considering what else changed remains to be seen.

DDuke · July 2017

NBrookus wrote: »

You realize of course, not all magicka builds are sorcs? Or even use damage shields based on magicka pools?

Yes, heavy armor cancer builds that take 0 dmg & deal a ton of dmg also remain a problem, though with these changes coming in light armor should certainly be pulling ahead in terms of competitiveness.

The good thing with shieldplars (I have to assume you're referring to these when talking about dmg shields not based on magicka pool) is that they deal zero damage if you don't hit them.

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Why started trolling? You can get more stam on stam builds using hulking set and bone pirate with good sustain

FYI.. its not much difference because 5th piece set bonus remain unchange and not just magicka stats go up but stam too with same buff values so whats the issue?

You could've read the previous posts before commenting.

An increase of 1k magicka gives a magicka user roughly 500 points stronger Hardened Ward/Dampen Magic.
An increase of 1k stamina gives a stamina user 185 points stronger Vigor over 5 seconds, or 37 health/second.

So yes, stamina goes up with the patch, but the defensive skill values don't - not in the same proportions as they do for magicka builds.

This is not even counting the fact that there are more passive modifiers that can further boost magicka.
The only stamina specific modifier in the game is stamina sorcerer's Bound Armaments for +8% max stamina.

NBrookus · July 2017

DDuke wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

You realize of course, not all magicka builds are sorcs? Or even use damage shields based on magicka pools?

Yes, heavy armor cancer builds that take 0 dmg & deal a ton of dmg also remain a problem, though with these changes coming in light armor should certainly be pulling ahead in terms of competitiveness.

The good thing with shieldplars (I have to assume you're referring to these when talking about dmg shields not based on magicka pool) is that they deal zero damage if you don't hit them.

I was referring to templars and DKs overall. While you *can* use harness/dampened on those classes, most don't because it doesn't suit the class well. I am going to have to dig my 52k magDK build out again and test it on PTS to see how it does.

Magblades using dampen are probably getting a big buff.

As for tanky cancer builds... tanky stam DKs stacking wrath + fury proc stacks for damage are unaffected. But in comparison, my light armor DK build for morrowind on PTS is near capped resists without Volatile Armor up, with no CP into resist and not using Lady either. (I do have one piece of reinforced.) I predict TTC is going way up.

Aedaryl · July 2017

There is something people don't understand about Necropotence :

First, this set was made for PETS SORCS, because it's the only way to make them kind of viable.

We need 4 slots and we can lost easly that bonus, when pets are killed.

Necropotence is a problem on non "pet sorc" build

With a monster set, people can have the necropotence bonus without counter play and with full slots available, stacking magicka way more than a pet sorc with Inner light, ect.

Also, regular sorc with Necropotence can still stack 3 shields without any downside.

Maybe ZoS should make all theze "monster pets" not affected by necro by changing the last bonus with a "when you have a class pet, give you 4k magicka"

Also, ZOS need to make annulment and Hardened ward not stackable.

Subversus · July 2017

@lord_hev that used to be the philosophy of pet sorcs in 1v1 pre morrowind actually, they get a 10k shield so there's no need to shield stack. Haven't played since so idk how it is nowadays though.

I believe this is what'll make this build so strong next patch, with a 17k non critable shield I doubt you'll need to stack anything. If anything, power surge will help out with head if you take health damage. I can't wait to get home and try it all out on my magblade, I sense a new meta inc...

Murador178 · July 2017

Subversus wrote: »

@lord_hev that used to be the philosophy of pet sorcs in 1v1 pre morrowind actually, they get a 10k shield so there's no need to shield stack. Haven't played since so idk how it is nowadays though.

I believe this is what'll make this build so strong next patch, with a 17k non critable shield I doubt you'll need to stack anything. If anything, power surge will help out with head if you take health damage. I can't wait to get home and try it all out on my magblade, I sense a new meta inc...

10k shield? my pet sorc is more like 16k with hardened ward

.

Murador178 · July 2017

@Aedaryl in a duel pet sorc is still suprior to a normal sorc so, even with these sets. Openworld/bgs this can rly get an issue bc a sorc with 32k shields without healing ward is for a soloplayer not even killalbe and even multiple players will have problems to take that shieldspammer down- with resto ult ontop u can prob easy tank 3-4 players.

Subversus · July 2017

@Murador178 as I said, I haven't played ESO since pre morrowind, came back recently and only played like 1h since then...

ForsakenSin · July 2017

yhea as i said i can see how this will be problem in PVP and

@LegendaryMage
"The game back then used to be more about active combat, countering stuff and playing it well. Now, it's all about stacking stats, stacking maximum magicka, stacking weapon damage and spaming that one skill (I'm looking at you Dive spammers) ftw."

i totally agree with you even though im PVE i had my fair share in PVP

The way i see it ESO its 2 games and not 1 there is PVP and PVE , and the problem is everything that people called for nerf or balance it affects PVE so why don't we change it this time?

why introduce max cap?

PVE you have 60k magica -- enter pvp its capped to max of 40k magica
PVE you have 60k Health -- enter pvp its capped to max of 35k Health
PVE you have 60k Stam-- enter pvp its capped to max of 55k Stam

This way , you will not have sorc with OP shields which will be called out to be nerferd yet again and PVE people will suffer
, you will not have trollplars with 60k health or even 70 k health running exploding shields and stam should be higher then magica as they use dodge roll ect so that would be equal to magica users.

This way PVP is set and any changes to PVP will not be reflect back to PVE

Adenoma · July 2017

How high are folks pushing max magicka on dw/resto magwardens on the PTS?

MLGProPlayer · July 2017

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Don't see a problem with it. Max magicka builds have weaknesses just like any other builds (except procblades)

So, about what weakness are you talking about? I know that you will tell me now again that I'm super stamblade biased and that magsorc players are quitting the game (because magsorcs are obviously underpowered Kappa) but *** it. Please enlighten me how to beat someone with 50k+ magicka. I can't do that without proc sets and I'm pretty sure that I can't do that as well if I would use proc sets. With the next patch basically everyone can wear Necropotence with almost perma uptime because of the shadow rend changes. So good luck bursting through these ridiculous shields. Oh, and on top of that they have now a damage debuff on you with shadowrend. And on top of that they can go vampire and get almost 30% less damage when they are low making it impossible to execute them even with 4,2k weapondamage. And on top of that they have a low cost ultimate which gives them Major Protection and heals them back to full health. Oh and I can't run them out of ressources because it's still possible to get up to 3k magicka regen despite having 100000000000000000000 max magicka. I see even stamina heavy armor DUELLBUILDS builds not being able to handle magicka builds who are still very viable in open world. The best part is that these high magicka builds are still pretty viable in open world (I guess they will be even best in slot in general if nothing on the pts changes). But at least stamina has better AoE and better group utility... oh wait, they don't have *** to compete in that area at all.

Yet you go ahead and tell me every single time that I'm the one who is stamblade biased (dunno why you always get triggered when I say medium armor is weak, it's not like medium armor is a stamblade only thing) while magicka, shields, soul strike and heavy armor are the meta. Basically every player who used to run around in medium armor is now either running around in heavy armor, quitted duels or quitted ESO at all. I guess there is a reason why you don't see anybody playing medium armor builds in duels at all (even former tournament winners struggle to play in medium armor but hey, maybe I should tell them to whisper you so you can teach them how to play medium armor against 50k+ magicka shieldspam cancer builds who can basically kill every medium armor build without popping an ult - yes, I did that against top tier medium armor players on my own sorc which is my second most played class by the way). It's not even about magsorcs, basically every magicka build turns into a fulltank with tons of damage if they have access to Necropotence and it will get much worse with the next update.

I hope that you are glad about the patch notes, you will finally be able to brainafk facetank three people with shields and you don't give a *** about duel balance anyways like the other "medium is OP in 1vX" junkies (what if I tell you, that you can't 1vX me if you can't beat me 1v1? Sound legit and still many 1vX fanatics don't understand that lol).

Keep in mind that the weakest class in the game (magicka warden) also relies on max magicka builds. So by nerfing those builds, you also make wardens even worse than they already are. Any nerfs to sorcs should be directly to sorcs, not the sets they use.

And max magicka builds deal less damage than spell power builds. That's their weakness.

DDuke · July 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Don't see a problem with it. Max magicka builds have weaknesses just like any other builds (except procblades)

So, about what weakness are you talking about? I know that you will tell me now again that I'm super stamblade biased and that magsorc players are quitting the game (because magsorcs are obviously underpowered Kappa) but *** it. Please enlighten me how to beat someone with 50k+ magicka. I can't do that without proc sets and I'm pretty sure that I can't do that as well if I would use proc sets. With the next patch basically everyone can wear Necropotence with almost perma uptime because of the shadow rend changes. So good luck bursting through these ridiculous shields. Oh, and on top of that they have now a damage debuff on you with shadowrend. And on top of that they can go vampire and get almost 30% less damage when they are low making it impossible to execute them even with 4,2k weapondamage. And on top of that they have a low cost ultimate which gives them Major Protection and heals them back to full health. Oh and I can't run them out of ressources because it's still possible to get up to 3k magicka regen despite having 100000000000000000000 max magicka. I see even stamina heavy armor DUELLBUILDS builds not being able to handle magicka builds who are still very viable in open world. The best part is that these high magicka builds are still pretty viable in open world (I guess they will be even best in slot in general if nothing on the pts changes). But at least stamina has better AoE and better group utility... oh wait, they don't have *** to compete in that area at all.

Yet you go ahead and tell me every single time that I'm the one who is stamblade biased (dunno why you always get triggered when I say medium armor is weak, it's not like medium armor is a stamblade only thing) while magicka, shields, soul strike and heavy armor are the meta. Basically every player who used to run around in medium armor is now either running around in heavy armor, quitted duels or quitted ESO at all. I guess there is a reason why you don't see anybody playing medium armor builds in duels at all (even former tournament winners struggle to play in medium armor but hey, maybe I should tell them to whisper you so you can teach them how to play medium armor against 50k+ magicka shieldspam cancer builds who can basically kill every medium armor build without popping an ult - yes, I did that against top tier medium armor players on my own sorc which is my second most played class by the way). It's not even about magsorcs, basically every magicka build turns into a fulltank with tons of damage if they have access to Necropotence and it will get much worse with the next update.

I hope that you are glad about the patch notes, you will finally be able to brainafk facetank three people with shields and you don't give a *** about duel balance anyways like the other "medium is OP in 1vX" junkies (what if I tell you, that you can't 1vX me if you can't beat me 1v1? Sound legit and still many 1vX fanatics don't understand that lol).

Keep in mind that the weakest class in the game (magicka warden) also relies on max magicka builds. So by nerfing those builds, you also make wardens even worse than they already are. Any nerfs to sorcs should be directly to sorcs, not the sets they use.

And max magicka builds deal less damage than spell power builds. That's their weakness.

I don't know, I've seen some crazy strong magicka warden builds out there too.

On paper, warden has the biggest burst combo in the game (and rather simple to actually perform) - I'll do some testing when I find the time/motivation.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2017

So whats the solution? Whats the compromise?

I really hope its not another Shield Breaker moment. I dont want a set to solve a fundamental problem with shields. I don't want toraqs infused oblivion to go to live either because its simply dumb.... i like to see the odd 0 damage tanks every once in awhile... however i don't like sorcs who can push insane damage/defence and sustain so easily either.

What do we do that doesnt involve any kind of cap? Is necro the issue? Do we scale shields off spell power instead of magicka?

Brutusmax1mus · July 2017

Derra wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Don't see a problem with it. Max magicka builds have weaknesses just like any other builds (except procblades)

Procblades got huge weaknesses... , they got less weapondmg/stam in return for procced dmg --> lower healing, they just tend to hide in cloak until selene incap is up and cloak again- when u see ambush that's ur detectpot timing get ur boundless going and stay on him.

This patch magicka got the better proc sets anyways:
- Torugspact+ obilivion echant infused staff procs everyweave--> equals 3k dmg on ever weave through shields
- Skoria: bit lower dmg as selene without counterplay- awesome
- infernalguardian

So my mag sorc on pts is like always broken -nice tripple shield stack.
Almost 60k magicka with shadowrend (minor maim on 3ple shield)+ necro with over 2k mag reg. I get bored of these mag sorc flaming the forums how weak they are. Mag sorcs have easy burst, very good and easy surviveability(with 60k magicka its called not forgetting to shield every 6 sec ur 2 monster shields and maybe healing ward).

And yes the max ressource pools buff is a buff to the anyways broken shieldstacking.
I think even @Derra will agree here with me.

WIth the oblivion stuff - I don't think a sorc can just rely on huge shields anymore. Won't have bar space for more than one with all the healing that will be needed.

I think especially with these enchatments huge magica pool gains importance and trippleshieldstack gets promoted.

Shadowrend + 5 necro + 3 ancient grace is exactly what i would play to counter torugs. You have so enormous shields that they allow you to cast hardened harness healing and let healing ward run out to get the end heal from healing ward.

I don´t think that´s a good thing.

You need 6 seconds before that ward expires. I'm 6 seconds you can do 12k dmg wth thhose glyphs. I'm guessing you have at max 20k hp with that stack build. Your healing ward cast at 15k hp will heal for 5k tops. So you're now at 5k or less hp after more oblivion procs, 5k heal ticks. You're at 10k hp. They will kill you before your next healing ward expires.

Counter pressure, stuns, and more than just healing ward will be enough through. If they have shield breaker then they are just trolls.

Vapirko · July 2017

Murador178 wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Don't see a problem with it. Max magicka builds have weaknesses just like any other builds (except procblades)

Procblades got huge weaknesses... , they got less weapondmg/stam in return for procced dmg --> lower healing, they just tend to hide in cloak until selene incap is up and cloak again- when u see ambush that's ur detectpot timing get ur boundless going and stay on him.

This patch magicka got the better proc sets anyways:
- Torugspact+ obilivion echant infused staff procs everyweave--> equals 3k dmg on ever weave through shields
- Skoria: bit lower dmg as selene without counterplay- awesome
- infernalguardian

So my mag sorc on pts is like always broken -nice tripple shield stack.
Almost 60k magicka with shadowrend (minor maim on 3ple shield)+ necro with over 2k mag reg. I get bored of these mag sorc flaming the forums how weak they are. Mag sorcs have easy burst, very good and easy surviveability(with 60k magicka its called not forgetting to shield every 6 sec ur 2 monster shields and maybe healing ward).

And yes the max ressource pools buff is a buff to the anyways broken shieldstacking.
I think even @Derra will agree here with me.

thank you for being honest

Derra · July 2017

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Don't see a problem with it. Max magicka builds have weaknesses just like any other builds (except procblades)

Procblades got huge weaknesses... , they got less weapondmg/stam in return for procced dmg --> lower healing, they just tend to hide in cloak until selene incap is up and cloak again- when u see ambush that's ur detectpot timing get ur boundless going and stay on him.

This patch magicka got the better proc sets anyways:
- Torugspact+ obilivion echant infused staff procs everyweave--> equals 3k dmg on ever weave through shields
- Skoria: bit lower dmg as selene without counterplay- awesome
- infernalguardian

So my mag sorc on pts is like always broken -nice tripple shield stack.
Almost 60k magicka with shadowrend (minor maim on 3ple shield)+ necro with over 2k mag reg. I get bored of these mag sorc flaming the forums how weak they are. Mag sorcs have easy burst, very good and easy surviveability(with 60k magicka its called not forgetting to shield every 6 sec ur 2 monster shields and maybe healing ward).

And yes the max ressource pools buff is a buff to the anyways broken shieldstacking.
I think even @Derra will agree here with me.

WIth the oblivion stuff - I don't think a sorc can just rely on huge shields anymore. Won't have bar space for more than one with all the healing that will be needed.

I think especially with these enchatments huge magica pool gains importance and trippleshieldstack gets promoted.

Shadowrend + 5 necro + 3 ancient grace is exactly what i would play to counter torugs. You have so enormous shields that they allow you to cast hardened harness healing and let healing ward run out to get the end heal from healing ward.

I don´t think that´s a good thing.

You need 6 seconds before that ward expires. I'm 6 seconds you can do 12k dmg wth thhose glyphs. I'm guessing you have at max 20k hp with that stack build. Your healing ward cast at 15k hp will heal for 5k tops. So you're now at 5k or less hp after more oblivion procs, 5k heal ticks. You're at 10k hp. They will kill you before your next healing ward expires.

Counter pressure, stuns, and more than just healing ward will be enough through. If they have shield breaker then they are just trolls.

I´m somewhere between 22 and 25k hp with my builds. Most likely only high magica won´t be enough - no idea yet.
But in combination with surge heals + blood magica a really high tripplestack should be sufficient for most 1v1 encounters.
If it isn´t rapid regen will help.

But that wasn´t my argument to begin with. I´ve only said that having really high shields is better than having low(ish) shields when dealing with this.
It promotes a more defensive gameplay approach to be able to deal with this.

Feanor · July 2017

I just hope any change - if there is any - will take noCP into account. Most of the perceived problems are ones that have their root in the champion system.

Derra · July 2017

Feanor wrote: »

I just hope any change - if there is any - will take noCP into account. Most of the perceived problems are ones that have their root in the champion system.

You just made drool like a moron thinking about torugs builds in nonCP - where you can´t even heal properly

Feanor · July 2017

Derra wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I just hope any change - if there is any - will take noCP into account. Most of the perceived problems are ones that have their root in the champion system.

You just made drool like a moron thinking about torugs builds in nonCP - where you can´t even heal properly

Well yeah, when people talk about Sorcs they always picture those 20k Bastion powered shields. If they tried a Sorc in noCP they would quickly see that OP is the last attribute coming to mind there.

Biro123 · July 2017

I kind of think that a bigger magical pool is going to lend itself to just running a single shield, freeing up slots for heals to survive oblivion.

I'm not sure how people are getting 60k mag and 2k recov though, at least without either being unable to heal through oblivion or having a weakness on the stamina side.

Septimus_Magna · July 2017

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

And max magicka builds deal less damage than spell power builds. That's their weakness.

Max magicka has more benefits than spell dmg if you ask me.
Depending on the build you give in a little dmg to gain bigger shields and improve sustain.

There are a lot of factors that increase max magicka and only a couple that increase spell dmg.

Aedaryl · July 2017

Murador178 wrote: »

@Aedaryl in a duel pet sorc is still suprior to a normal sorc so, even with these sets. Openworld/bgs this can rly get an issue bc a sorc with 32k shields without healing ward is for a soloplayer not even killalbe and even multiple players will have problems to take that shieldspammer down- with resto ult ontop u can prob easy tank 3-4 players.

I thought that too, bur it's false, normal sorc kill your pet then he can break and streak after you and interrupt you each time you will recast him. I dueled a sorc hwo does that, and this way is 100% counter and you can just don't do anything as a pet sorc. Hopefully peoole don't know...

Dark_Aether · July 2017

Why is unmitigated damage a thing? Why is there a mechanic with no counter-play? It's not needed for npcs so it was definitely put there for PVP, introduced with Shield-Breaker bandage fix for Sorc shield stacking.