Combat Effect Changes

Narvuntien · July 2017

I really needed this change.. my game would just break at the start of every boss fight when the AoEs were thrown down.
There were also plenty of times there was so many AoEs I couldn't see the red circles and my screen was just sparkles everywhere.

I think toggle is the best option here... but a toogle to turn on rather than off.

Enodoc · July 2017

If these changes are to increase server performance (i.e., latency), a toggle wouldn't help. When toggled off, the server would still have to perform the calculations for where everything is so that is can be shown in case anyone has it toggled on. If these changes are to improve client performance (i.e., FPS), then a toggle would be fine.

Meey · July 2017

Some group effects need to be seen to play effectively, please let us toggle the effects.

Feanor · July 2017

Next step: remove visuals of all skills used regardless who casted them. Welcome to the ESO combat bingo.

Seriously this needs to be an option, not a force.

evedgebah · July 2017

I'm not a fan of the visual changes as they are for similar reason, even in trials. A reduction in quality or change to simple circles from full visuals would achieve the purpose of improving frame rate while also allowing allies to see where friendly effects are to optimize positioning for coordinated events, PvP and PvE both.

Zardayne · July 2017

This has to have a toggle.

SanTii.92 · July 2017

A toggle would be appreciated,

Joy_Division · July 2017

If this is a toggle, what the help server performance as the server would still have to do all this stuff?

I personally would like to see ally ground effects, but I would willing to do away with some of them if it improved performance.

I dont really need to see familiar pulses, sorcerer hurricanes, templar rune focuses, stuff like this can be done away with. I do think seeing if allies drop ultiamtes is very important though.

ZOS_Wrobel · July 2017

To give everyone a bit more detail, you will still see the animations and initial cast FX of the ability to help give some feedback as to where your allies are casting their abilities. For example, with Caltrops, you still see the ball of spikes fly to the correct location and explode. With Elemental Storm, you'll still see a column of fire/frost/shock at the specified location.

We removed the persistent effect because it could be difficult to parse what was happening when many players activated them at the same time. We also wanted to keep the spells looking and feeling awesome so the caster of an effect always sees its full glory.

More detailed feedback on global combat clarity and on an ability-by-ability basis would be much appreciated if you guys could check this out on the PTS, both in large and small groups.

Feedback on the toggle duly noted.

rhapsodious · July 2017

Following up on the toggle comments, could you perhaps only render a shape (circle, cone, what have you) that represents the effect's coverage, perhaps colored green for healing-type effects e.g. Healing Springs and yellow for effects your allies placed that harm the enemy e.g. Caltrops? Like a minimalist mode or something?

For example, I would love this change in trials, as right now I have a hard time focusing sometimes due to all the particle barf (And have died more than once because I thought a lightning well on second boss vHOF up top was a sorc's Liquid Lightning...) . But people have brought up good points about when they'd want to see the attacks.

RMerlin · July 2017

While defending a keep, I will occasionally look at a wall breach to see if someone put caltrops in front of a breach. If there isn't any visible, then I might throw one myself. Removing the persistent effect will remove a bit of information which I consider rather useful during PvP combat.

JarlUlfric · July 2017

Wrobel wrote: »

To give everyone a bit more detail, you will still see the animations and initial cast FX of the ability to help give some feedback as to where your allies are casting their abilities. For example, with Caltrops, you still see the ball of spikes fly to the correct location and explode. With Elemental Storm, you'll still see a column of fire/frost/shock at the specified location.

This is nice, but if I don't see the initial cast then we're still left in the dark. If there was a way to differentiate the difference between types of attacks, like differences in the color of the ring around the AoE ability to know what they are, that could be better.

Wrobel wrote: »

We removed the persistent effect because it could be difficult to parse what was happening when many players activated them at the same time.

If it's difficult to parse for the server, then it's completely understood, but once again most PVPers understand what is happening in the battlefield because of the abilities that they see on their screen. IF I see all my allies begin to Proxy det up and trigger their ultimates I'm more likely to move my group in the same space.

Wrobel wrote: »

We also wanted to keep the spells looking and feeling awesome so the caster of an effect always sees its full glory.

I think that if I am unable to see these abilities I don't think it be as "awesome." Truly one of the most awesome things is to see your group rush in with ultimates and wipe the opponent. If I were only to see the abilities of myself, I don't think it would feel as awesome or rewarding. Just an opinion though.

Wrobel wrote: »

More detailed feedback on global combat clarity and on an ability-by-ability basis would be much appreciated if you guys could check this out on the PTS, both in large and small groups.

Feedback on the toggle duly noted.

It seems that most of the people in the thread have suggested this, I would highly recommend that you consider it, if possible.

QuebraRegra · July 2017

JarlUlfric wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

wait, whut?!?!?!

I kind glossed over this, but are you saying allies can't see my caltrops, Bahrahas curse circle etc? They need those visual clues so they can help to kite enemies into those effects.

"where'd you put the caltrops?!?!?"

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

list]
[*]Affected player abilities include the following:
Ash Cloud and its morphs

Path of Darkness and the Twisting Path morph

Volatile Familiar Special Ability

Hurricane

Rune Focus and its morphs

Impaling Shards and its morphs

Volley and its morphs

Wall of Elements and its morphs

Elemental Storm and its morphs

Caltrops and its morphs

Yep, this looks very very bad for PVP.

Looks bad for PVE!!! I mean it's a legit tactic for other grouped players in dungeons to kite enemies into AOEs right?

As for the initial cast, that's nice, but then allies can't see if the effect is still active or not. This has a real impact on tactics. I know animations, and animation priorities have been a struggle with this game for a while, but there has to be some other way to deal with the "parsing problems". I mean enemies will still see the full effects, so how much is really being gained by this change? Seems inefficient in terms of resources.

Perhaps just don't depict (to allies) stacks of the same kind of AOE (ie. caltrops), and only show the most recent cast in the case of an AOE overlap?

Avran_Sylt · July 2017

@Wrobel

Went and did some testing with a guy, and the Destro ultimate is completely invisible after the initial column gets shown, working as intended. I can certainly see why removing the effect will help improve (FPS) performance, however, it detracts from the visual impact of the skill.

Though IMO lightning splash needs to be addressed (that being everywhere in trials when you've got a lot of sorcs, though I know that it has a synergy effect)

Would it be possible to make this system more in depth?

I.E.
-Allow the player to toggle this change
-Allow the player to individually select this option for each skill (Custom Settings) / set effect (or just Effect Types)
-Expand this to influence all abilities that are not player originated (Including Synergy Abilities)
-Allow the player to select a 'Basic' ability particle effect option that's the middle ground (simplified animations for better performance, while still showing something)
-Add in preset options that: hide what is hidden currently | hide all allied skills | Simplify current | Simplify all

This undoubtedly wouldn't be done quickly (might take a year or so)

Koolio · July 2017

Wrobel wrote: »

To give everyone a bit more detail, you will still see the animations and initial cast FX of the ability to help give some feedback as to where your allies are casting their abilities. For example, with Caltrops, you still see the ball of spikes fly to the correct location and explode. With Elemental Storm, you'll still see a column of fire/frost/shock at the specified location.

We removed the persistent effect because it could be difficult to parse what was happening when many players activated them at the same time. We also wanted to keep the spells looking and feeling awesome so the caster of an effect always sees its full glory.

More detailed feedback on global combat clarity and on an ability-by-ability basis would be much appreciated if you guys could check this out on the PTS, both in large and small groups.

Feedback on the toggle duly noted.

This is worth pointing out. We need a lot more of these. Thank you for considering the toggle.

NBrookus · July 2017

Wrobel wrote: »

To give everyone a bit more detail, you will still see the animations and initial cast FX of the ability to help give some feedback as to where your allies are casting their abilities. For example, with Caltrops, you still see the ball of spikes fly to the correct location and explode. With Elemental Storm, you'll still see a column of fire/frost/shock at the specified location.

We removed the persistent effect because it could be difficult to parse what was happening when many players activated them at the same time. We also wanted to keep the spells looking and feeling awesome so the caster of an effect always sees its full glory.

More detailed feedback on global combat clarity and on an ability-by-ability basis would be much appreciated if you guys could check this out on the PTS, both in large and small groups.

Feedback on the toggle duly noted.

In PVE, this is manageable by communication, dropping AOEs on the tank, and seeing the initial effect. (Although it may make pugs even harder.)

In PvP, where the visual simplification is needed even more, you are almost always fighting with allies not in your group or in comms and focusing on not just one direction, but watching flanks, too. Seeing what you other allies are doing is pretty critical if you are to work together. And since we aren't going to see large battles in Cyro until it goes live, it's hard to gauge what the end result is going to be.

Perhaps some sort of persistent, simplified visual circle on the ground would help. Making those animations unique -- for example, caltrops shows a yellow circle and a few of the caltrops along the edge instead of all of them -- might be too much work at this stage but even the yellow (or whatever color) circle/effect would be an improvement.

Feanor · July 2017

@Wrobel

Thanks for explaining and getting involved. Will definitely test a bit more once I have the time to check PTS.

Recremen · July 2017

Wrobel wrote: »

To give everyone a bit more detail, you will still see the animations and initial cast FX of the ability to help give some feedback as to where your allies are casting their abilities. For example, with Caltrops, you still see the ball of spikes fly to the correct location and explode. With Elemental Storm, you'll still see a column of fire/frost/shock at the specified location.

We removed the persistent effect because it could be difficult to parse what was happening when many players activated them at the same time. We also wanted to keep the spells looking and feeling awesome so the caster of an effect always sees its full glory.

More detailed feedback on global combat clarity and on an ability-by-ability basis would be much appreciated if you guys could check this out on the PTS, both in large and small groups.

Feedback on the toggle duly noted.

I'll see if folks can pull in to test this, but my initial take is that it's usually very beneficial to know where your allies' effects are hitting and how long they're lasting. Caltrops, for example, is an extremely slow-moving ability that's nearly impossible to place dynamically when mirroring an enemy force. It is highly beneficial for the group to see where the effect is while it remains active so they can try to coax the enemy to fight in it. I'm sure there are other abilities with similar issues, that's just the one I use that I know the group is better served seeing.

Avran_Sylt · July 2017

@Wrobel

Will abilities such as Fire rune, and Negate receive the same treatment? or is this focused more on heavily used Trial Abilities?

Thraben · July 2017

Caltrops and Negates have to be visible. The rest can be optional.

Tevalaur · July 2017

Copying my comment that I'd made in the Patch Notes thread as I'm not seeing that have any sign Developer's are reading there and just want to add another voice of serious concern regarding this change:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

General
In an effort to reduce the visual effect noise in group combat situations, we’ve hidden most visual effects from persistent damaging area of effect abilities cast by your allies. Area of effect abilities that have a synergy, healing, or defensive component that can benefit you will still be visible, and area of effect abilities cast by enemies will also still be visible.
Affected player abilities include the following:
Ash Cloud and its morphs

Path of Darkness and the Twisting Path morph

Volatile Familiar Special Ability

Hurricane

Rune Focus and its morphs

Impaling Shards and its morphs

Volley and its morphs

Wall of Elements and its morphs

Elemental Storm and its morphs

Caltrops and its morphs

Affected Item Set abilities include the following:
Bahraha’s Curse

Essence Thief

Grothdarr

Hand of Mephala

Ilambris

Infernal Guardian

Leeching Plate

Nerien’eth

Sellistrix

Sheer Venom

Storm Knight’s Plate

Thunderbug’s Carapace

Tremorscale

Velidreth

Winterborn

Developer Comments:
Having less visual effects on your screen improves both visual clarity and performance, which makes it easier to respond to the more important visuals that come from enemy attacks.

My original response in the Patch Notes thread: @ZOS_GinaBruno
This raises a concern over how allies will know a good area to draw enemies into so that they sustain Damage over Time effects. While the visual lag reduction sounds promising, I fear a loss to group DPS when players don't see where these DoT skills are occurring.

Adding: @Wrobel and it's easy to miss that initial burst if not turned in toward that direction in that instant.

Maryal · July 2017

If this improves performance ... you know ... when I press a skill key (or combination thereof) it actually goes off when it is supposed to, or when I press my 'change skill bar' key it works without delay ... then I am all for it.

IMO, I suspect that macro splicing, lag, frame rate problems, etc., hurt gameplay more than an absence of friendly persistent visual effects would. As a side note, there is an added benefit in that now when I see a persistent visual effect (i.e., caltrops for example) I will know it is the enemy's and can avoid it.

I really think this is something we need to give a chance, we need to try out this change in both small and large group settings (pve & pvp) before we decide whether it is a beneficial change or not.

Own · July 2017

thanks for the reply @Wrobel
I prefer the chaos and to see everything possible! GTX 1080 ftw.

I will (actually) test skills on the pts before posting anything else related to this

Maole1989 · July 2017

Please make this a toggle. Toggle would be a good compromise.

Zaldan · July 2017

lol talk about grasping at straws to help server performance, I didn't realise persistent effects were there just to look pretty

Turelus · July 2017

Thanks for the clarification Wrobel.

This doesn't sound as bad as I first thought so I am not as upset, but if it is possible to get this reworked as a toggle before it goes live I think myself and many others would appreciate it. I know a lot of players are excited to have the option to have these off whilst many also would miss them, so sorry to keep repeating it but a toggle please!

I'm a little confused still if these changes are going into PvP or not? I didn't see anything in the notes stating they were PvE only but that could be a learn to read issue on my part.

My issue PvP wise is when I am running with a group I want to know when I should update the cast of something (if we're sharing/alternating) without needing my team mates to call out when their effects end.

PvE wise I am not super fussed but sometimes it's sill helpful to see where an allies effects currently are in order to reposition myself there.

Also being selfish, as someone with an expensive PC I kind of want to have explosions and sparkles cluttering my screen making things look crazy as I paid money to be able to do that.

hydrocynus · July 2017

From a tanks point of view we need this on so would be grateful for the toggle option.

I can just imagine the rage from my DDs every time I move the enemies out of their beautiful elemental storms.

Sordidfairytale · July 2017

Without voice chat it's pretty much bonkers for tanks to keep the bad guys in the bad stuff. I can understand the reasoning, but I don't agree with it. It's just really bad without the visual cues. As a tank, I feel like I'm always in the dark, I'm living in a powder keg and giving off sparks.

tommalmm · July 2017

Please note, that I have not tested it on PTS yet, so my concerns are based purely on patch notes and the response given in this thread. Recently I'm tanking and healing much more than DPSing. I see these changes as a problem in tanking. Much less in organised groups, but in PUGs it can become an issue. It is simply impossible (for me at least) to observe entire battlefield, take note of every skill going off (and remembering it's placement), properly positioning a boss, paying attention to telegraphs, so I can bash/block/roll, keeping my debuffs and buffs up, etc. Not at the same time. True, usually you just keep the boss still at one place, moving only slightly if avoiding damage, but there are a few cases when the bosses ignore you for a while and mind their own business (like spawning adds, charging, etc). If I miss the first animation of, say, destro ulti, I might move the boss/adds back to an optimal position (eg. easiest to avoid damage, etc.) instead of keeping it where the ultis are (for normal skills it's not such a big issue, DPS is lost, but not that much).

As for a DPS perspective - it really sounds good, especially in trials. For many it is much easier to properly maintain rotation if they see what they're doing. At least when it comes to PVE. In PVP seeing other people AOE is, IMO, very helpful.

PS4_ZeColmeia · July 2017

Wrobel wrote: »

To give everyone a bit more detail, you will still see the animations and initial cast FX of the ability to help give some feedback as to where your allies are casting their abilities. For example, with Caltrops, you still see the ball of spikes fly to the correct location and explode. With Elemental Storm, you'll still see a column of fire/frost/shock at the specified location.

We removed the persistent effect because it could be difficult to parse what was happening when many players activated them at the same time. We also wanted to keep the spells looking and feeling awesome so the caster of an effect always sees its full glory.

More detailed feedback on global combat clarity and on an ability-by-ability basis would be much appreciated if you guys could check this out on the PTS, both in large and small groups.

Feedback on the toggle duly noted.

perhaps another modification would be to have the effect disappear but have Blue or Green circles replace the area (not red so they are not confused with enemy telegraphs). This way you can see what was cast, but not have performance of the machine impacted. Toggle if you don't care about performance, or have a beast machine.

And because I have to: update carnage to affect spell critical as well as its current weapon critical.