Why keep nerfing those *** dungeons that are already nerfed?

Vercingetorix · July 2017

Alcast wrote: »

Instead of keep nerfing those dungeons like WGT..already only needed half a braincell to complete those lmfao
Why not show people with actual USEFUL INGAME TIPS how they can improve their gamestyle and learn the game.

Maybe because some of us don't walk around with gold min-maxed gear and aren't disillusioned to how the other 99.9% of the player base works. You don't have to rely on the broken group finder, or hope that the other 3 players have decent gear, or pray that everyone else in the group is actually playing the role they queued for.

rhapsodious · July 2017

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Instead of keep nerfing those dungeons like WGT..already only needed half a braincell to complete those lmfao
Why not show people with actual USEFUL INGAME TIPS how they can improve their gamestyle and learn the game.

Maybe because some of us don't walk around with gold min-maxed gear and aren't disillusioned to how the other 99.9% of the player base works. You don't have to rely on the broken group finder, or hope that the other 3 players have decent gear, or pray that everyone else in the group is actually playing the role they queued for.

You don't need gold min-maxed gear though... The rifts as they are now on live have like, 4.5k health. For me that's one, maybe two plinks with a bow or my destro staff. What's the point of lowering it further? As long as you're getting portals, the inhibitor in particular is a pretty straightforward fight.

I just see this creating issues if it also applies to the inhibitor fight. Because all the guides will say something along the lines of "the person on portals is exempt from pinion duty" and it's assumed that someone who already has a job shouldn't take a second, we're going to get exactly what happens when I end up in a bad PUG. That being:

We get planar to below 50%.

Someone dies. There are now 3 people alive.

Planar goes blue.

I take the pinion.

The other two people have portals.

The pinion re-opens.

Nobody goes to take it, because "they have portals".

I try to tell them that if they do not take the damn pinion, I will die followed by them.

Nobody takes the pinion and I get burned to a crisp.

Inhibitor refocuses on one of them. Now they have portals, an angry inhibitor, and nobody to take her off them.

They die.

Rinse. Repeat.

The only difference is now this will happen at full health instead of only below 50.

I do, however, approve of the changes on Velidreth. The nerf to her poison spores seems to put it back inline to how it was pre-Morrowind, since our sustain got nerfed - it makes sense that her drain would, too. And I can't tell you how many times there was just one too many things going on and I got ganked by the statue AOE. ): So I'll be happy to see that go. But WGT, the Overfiend fight, Lord Warden's shades and Xal-Nur were fine, IMO. Can we do something about Lord Warden sometimes not spawning the second portal, instead?

deadlychaos1991 · July 2017

People. Stop complaining that vet dungeons are too hard. You can still complete your pledges on normal. That game would NOT be healthier if the elitists left because then no one would be able to complete some, if not all of the trials. I used to play this game and get excited when there was challenging 4 man content in this game. Small group of buds struggling to complete some of eso's most challenging content. Making all the dlc dungeons, and all dungeons for that matter, easier means that entitled people who can't actually learn to play are just getting the content catered to them. It's called a VETERAN dungeon for a reason. Like ***...they're not that hard. You just need to go to google and look up mechanics and actually practice them.

God forbid you put effort into obtaining some of the best and most desired gear in the game. They should just mail it to you ffs.

Vercingetorix · July 2017

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

There's already guides for every single boss online. Why not reach out to the creators(if possible) and ask if you can use them, saying that you write "Guide written by xxxx" at the bottom or top. Sure that must be a better way of doing it than completely ruining the experience for players that actually took the time to *learn* mechanics.

...And there's the typical snowflake elitist mentality that's harming this game. So you beat the dungeon day 1? Neat, no one cares but you. Oh, you have every achievement on day 1? Big deal, here's your imaginary gold star.

Barring players out of content just so you can appease your own ego is beyond ridiculous. Many players don't have the luxury of min-max gear and coordinated groups. Vet dungeons should require you to complete the associated mechanic, but still complete the dungeon.

Experience should only function as a means to complete the dungeon with less soul gem usage and a faster completion time. It should NOT be a prerequisite to even get gear. Many players simply SKIP these DLC dungeons right now because they aren't even sure if their random group will be able to do it - they could spend a whole night and get NOTHING for it. ZoS wants to change that and frankly, it's a good change.

bebynnag · July 2017

Alcast wrote: »

Instead of keep nerfing those dungeons like WGT..already only needed half a braincell to complete those lmfao
Why not show people with actual USEFUL INGAME TIPS how they can improve their gamestyle and learn the game.

HA!

its funny cause your post suggests that the developers care about anything we have to say.

theyve already got our money our opinions no longer matter

techprince · July 2017

Oh cmon, stop crying. They made DLC dungs a bit more pug friendly. You have your vTrials to show your epeen.

Alucardo · July 2017

Ok, so I'm a PVPer, but I still have no problem completing vet dungeons. The issue is I don't have any friends or guildies who particularly like doing dungeons. I'm not in HODOR with pro pvers at my beck and call, which means I need to rely on PUGs. Have you ever done mazz with pugs before? Yeah, you can't. WGT is near impossible with pugs. Hell, we couldn't even complete Spindleclutch Whisperer because the tank kept dying. We couldn't finish Direfrost because the pugs would not break CC, no matter how much I shouted "BREAK THE [SNIP]ING CC".
They need to dumb down dungeons so that everybody can enjoy them. If you want hard, end-game PVE content, then unfortunately you need to stick with trials.
In a perfect would they wouldn't have to lower difficulty, but ESO has always had a strong influx of new players, which is my guess why the game is becoming more and more casual friendly.

Believe me man, I cried so hard when they nerfed the mobs in IC. You can mow them down now without thought.

Transairion · July 2017

Maybe because some of us don't walk around with gold min-maxed gear and aren't disillusioned to how the other 99.9% of the player base works. You don't have to rely on the broken group finder, or hope that the other 3 players have decent gear, or pray that everyone else in the group is actually playing the role they queued for.

You don't need gold min-maxed gear though...

I think their point was more that players who find Veteran DLC dungeons "faceroll easy" like Alcast, who as far as I know is one of the best ESO players in the game, don't really represent most of the playerbase at all. If everyone was as good as Alcast we'd already be up to "Nightmare" difficulty for Dungeons and everyone would be clearing Veteran no problem.

The DLC Dungeons now even in their nerfed states have horrendous completion rates on Veteran: I've still never even completed Vet RoM despite doing it a whole lot with very good players back then. A lot, if not the majority of Veteran-capable players just outright skip those pledges. Even on Normal difficulty they can be such a chore (and even unclearable with extreme low level beginners, assuming they don't listen) they still get skipped over.

That's a bad function for paid DLC, to be that hated and avoided after paying for them. Imperial City came with a PvPvE zone at least, but the Hist Dungeon Pack and the Nord Dungeon Pack are literally just Dungeons you pay to access. The more players that can complete and access them, the better for ZOS.

If you're an amazing player you can clear the hardest DLC dungeons no problem, but they'll still always be "too easy" for you no matter what. Veteran Trials have an even lower completion rate, and the highest rewards for PvE as a result. That doesn't mean certain Dungeons should be "farm mode" for the best players and "impossible mode" for those below.

Lieblingsjunge · July 2017

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

There's already guides for every single boss online. Why not reach out to the creators(if possible) and ask if you can use them, saying that you write "Guide written by xxxx" at the bottom or top. Sure that must be a better way of doing it than completely ruining the experience for players that actually took the time to *learn* mechanics.

...And there's the typical snowflake elitist mentality that's harming this game. So you beat the dungeon day 1? Neat, no one cares but you. Oh, you have every achievement on day 1? Big deal, here's your imaginary gold star.

Barring players out of content just so you can appease your own ego is beyond ridiculous. Many players don't have the luxury of min-max gear and coordinated groups. Vet dungeons should require you to complete the associated mechanic, but still complete the dungeon.

Experience should only function as a means to complete the dungeon with less soul gem usage and a faster completion time. It should NOT be a prerequisite to even get gear. Many players simply SKIP these DLC dungeons right now because they aren't even sure if their random group will be able to do it - they could spend a whole night and get NOTHING for it. ZoS wants to change that and frankly, it's a good change.

I'm not an elitist, neither a snowflake. I'm a PvP-player and I don't do PvE that often anymore. So my argument should be stronger, as I have barely any continious experience in PvE. Yet I manage the hardest achievements - all it takes is a random group of people wanting to complete it, then you work together as agroup to complete that. If you read my post you would see thatI spent 4 hours getting to the last stage of Planar Inhib - just to try it another day.

As I said - you don't need min/maxed or golden out gear. That's a straight up lie. Veteran(!!) dungeons should require you to 1) KNow the mechanics 2) Know the basic of the game 3) Have semi-decent gear(that doesn't include green random weapons and white random gear). It's called veteran after all. So some knowledge, skills and gear should be mandatory to complete them.

Then they can 1) Ask in a guild for assistance. There's guilds made in every language, in every aspect of the game. We can be a part of up to 5 guilds, don't tell me you can't ask in any of those. 2) I spent my whole night clearing the first 2 stages of Planar inhib back when IC launched and I just started the game - and got nothing for it. Yet I didn't advocate for a nerf. It just feels better once you complete it.

Rohamad_Ali · July 2017

Statistics can be brought up on the ps4 , you don't have to be a ZoS employee to view them . I've completed everything already I've wanted to complete on ps4 and PC . So now it makes no difference to me because I've already done and all I do now is rerun dungeons .

Just remember on ps4 and Xbox it's a different demographic . You got a lot of guys that log in after work with a beer for an hour an play two or three different games . They don't read forums or watch YouTube . They listen to their spouses rant and go to bed after minimal game time . You call them casuals but they call you you elitists unemployed nerds . The point is it's a whole different type of gamer on console and PC players should of seen it coming eventually . As a unemployed nerd even I'm not so daft to think things will never change for the larger demographics . I play more on PC now because on console they really rip into you for the elitists comments . Even if I make more money then them I'm a unemployed nerd , there's no winning with a Dro'mothra destroyer title .

I don't personally care if they nerf dungeons or not because it's all just grinding zones for me .

NBrookus · July 2017

I think the old "hard" dungeons should be made more casual-friendly. There are a lot of players who never had the chance to complete that content. Players not completing content = waste of dev resources.

I think CoS and RoM nerfs are too soon, though.

rhapsodious · July 2017

Right, sure. I don't think they're faceroll easy, to be clear. I just don't see the point of nerfing WGT in particular the way they have. As I said, I think the Velidreth nerfs were fair. And I've taken countless people new to the dungeons through there, and have no issue teaching mechanics or dealing with a few wipes while we learn.

I disagree with Xal-Nur (except for making the swamp spice more visible, that's exactly the kind of change that I'd suggest if you needed to change something) and the portal changes through WGT because they're mechanically intensive. That's the point. They're also very rewarding if you pay attention to mechanics. Xal-Nur is hard on the tank, sure, but the rest of it is all paying attention to what's going on. You have to hustle whenever he's shielded, but other than that if you've got the adds under control (which, I may point out, the wamasu are there for that express purpose) you can take your time.

I don't know what reducing the health of the portals on Veteran WGT is supposed to accomplish. They were already two-shottable, one if you crit.

I think the DLC dungeons get a bad rap just because they're supposed to be more difficult than the vanilla content. They punish you if you don't follow mechanics, and they reward you if you do. People get it in their head that they should be able to just do damage to the boss while the tank tanks and the healer heals, and that eventually the boss will die and that will be that. The lack of self-preservation or consideration of their surroundings - the proverbial standing in red - will lead to wipes in the DLC dungeons, and instead of looking at their playstyle and what's happening, they instead say it's too haaaaaard! or get discouraged because they didn't get it after a few tries.

Sure, I've got vet trials, but when I don't feel like getting 12 people together, I like being able to group up with 3 of my friends and just run through COS or ROM for another delicious motif page. And we're not amazing players, we just take the time to learn from our mistakes.

Apherius · July 2017

What next ? A nerf to Vmol because " casual " people can't pass it ?

Alucardo · July 2017

Apherius wrote: »

What next ? A nerf to Vmol because " casual " people can't pass it ?

No, trials are end-game competitive PVE and should remain difficult. We're talking about general pledge dungeons.

Apherius · July 2017

Alucardo wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

What next ? A nerf to Vmol because " casual " people can't pass it ?

No, trials are end-game competitive PVE and should remain difficult. We're talking about general pledge dungeons.

Ouf ,thank for this information !

SirSocke · July 2017

I'm with Alcast, too.

Especial the planar inhibiter. You can burst her down and ignore all mechanics with two DDs 25k+ DPS.

So, why more nerfs to this easy Dungeon?

Feanor · July 2017

For all the players who want veteran dungeons nerfed even further:

There is a normal version!

The normal version is exactly the same, looks the same, has the same loot, and you can experience the same atmosphere and story. The only difference is: You don't get the monster helm and 1 key less on the pledge.

I don't get why players who can't beat veteran dungeons insist that their difficulty has to be lowered to their level when a normal version that does exactly that and is there just for this purpose is in the game. I really don't understand.

Also you can clear about any content in purple Julianos or Hundings. Hardly BiS stuff in gold quality needed.

Transairion · July 2017

I think the DLC dungeons get a bad rap just because they're supposed to be more difficult than the vanilla content. They punish you if you don't follow mechanics, and they reward you if you do. People get it in their head that they should be able to just do damage to the boss while the tank tanks and the healer heals, and that eventually the boss will die and that will be that. The lack of self-preservation or consideration of their surroundings - the proverbial standing in red - will lead to wipes in the DLC dungeons, and instead of looking at their playstyle and what's happening, they instead say it's too haaaaaard! or get discouraged because they didn't get it after a few tries.

Some of the DLC dungeons also have infuriating mechanics that are just RNG based rather than skill based, which is part of why I personally hate them so much. All Vet Dungeons punish "standing in stupid", but Vet DLC Dungeons are just vicious.

For example, Vet RoM again: getting stuck destroying the statues and having no abilities until you destroy the correct one is horrible to deal with. The tank or healer gets that at the wrong time and you pretty much wipe. Velidreth's "ground spike of death" is another I hate, but that's more due to never getting the timing right on my end and always dodging too early or too late. Knowing the mechanic and executing it flawlessly repeatedly, or wiping if you don't can be very rough.

They're especially unforgivable dungeons, even if you know how everything is meant to work. "Stand in stupid and just burn boss, we'll heal through it" is more of a flaw of other dungeons and content, I always try to follow mechanics even if that's an option. Do know if any of this means anything to you of course, but the DLC dungeons have always been hated.

The new DLC dungeons will be the new "top tier hardmode" of Vet Dungeons like SotH and Imperial City before it, and get steadily nerfed as time goes on to make way for another Dungeon DLC. I doubt it'll change much.

rhapsodious · July 2017

Yes, the healer getting statues during the final phase of ROM sucks, but we usually have someone slot off-heals or everyone slots self-heals to help out (as a Nightblade, I slap on Funnel Health and have Siphoning Attacks going). Whoever has taunt never gets the debuff btw, so the tank should only get it if they don't taunt her immediately after she gets out of her cage thingy and she decides to toss it (and admittedly, that sucks, but you have a second to throw out an Inner Fire). If the healer gets it, it's just bad luck, but everything else can be worked around.

Dodge Velidreth's spike when the ground below you rumbles and you get a little dust poof. Works every time unless you roll into your friend. (:

And again, I'm not really commenting on the fact that they want more people to be able to complete the dungeons. I can get behind that. It's just that the changes are kind of counter-intuitive to that, and that they're nerfing mechanics that worked perfectly fine before and weren't RNG based.

And again-again, the dungeons are hated by people who haven't even given them an honest shot, they've just heard that they're so hard or they require super-leet DPS or experience when they really don't. Or they don't look inwards and consider that what they're doing might be the issue, not the dungeon itself. Sure, you can't just fart your way through, and don't take this as me thinking you're saying you should be able to, but I 'd like to have more challenging 4 man content left in the game as opposed to rebalancing it such that I only have 2-4 options each patch.

That being said, I understand the feeling of a dungeon just being ***. I always loathe the Lord Warden fight because of how frustrating it is to have someone accidentally fall into a portal, then someone else misses the Darklight Burst, or the remaining portal rolls right over the center as you're falling down and you die to portal feedback, or the stupid god damn fricking meteors prevent you from rezzing during shades... But it makes me reconsider my build. I swapped to popping immovability pots to get a rez off during the meteors.

My point amidst all this rambling, I guess, is that the changes feel like a misrepresentation of where the actual problem lies. The portals are easy to understand especially if you're paying attention to the dialogue, and Xal-Nur's charge was pretty easy to mitigate. I don't understand why they needed to be changed, or how this will help completion.

e: words

Vercingetorix · July 2017

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

I'm not an elitist, neither a snowflake. I'm a PvP-player and I don't do PvE that often anymore. So my argument should be stronger, as I have barely any continious experience in PvE. Yet I manage the hardest achievements - all it takes is a random group of people wanting to complete it, then you work together as agroup to complete that. If you read my post you would see thatI spent 4 hours getting to the last stage of Planar Inhib - just to try it another day.

As a PvP player, your argument is WEAKER, not stronger as the content you are whining about doesn't even pertain to you. Second, you just stated you had a group carry you through the dungeons to get you the skins and achievements - proving my point, lol. Lastly, neither I nor anyone else cares that it took you 4 hours to complete one boss. Good for you.

Just because it took you 4 hours to finish the boss, doesn't mean a family man working all day wants to spend what little time he has at night making no progress. Hate to burst your bubble snowflake, but a big chunk of the player base is composed of working adults with responsibilities outside of sitting on their parents' couch all day. They don't have the luxury of farming vMA for days straight or staying up til 2AM on a boss fight. Allowing "pug" groups have a more reasonable timeframe to complete a DLC dungeon (a PAID dungeon) is a welcome change by ZoS. There are plenty of players who will tell you that they haven't even touched the Hist dungeons because those dungeons were designed for coordinated groups with "nearly-BiS" gear - they don't want to spend all night burning through soul gems/gold and then get nothing for it when someone has to leave because the group's been in the dungeon for 2+ hours.

Jawasa · July 2017

@Vercingetorix then play normal mode if you think veteran takes to much time or is too hard.

And you Def do not need to farm vma weapons or gold tempers. Crafted sets and boe gear will work fine.

timb16_ESO85 · July 2017

SirSocke wrote: »

I'm with Alcast, too.

Especial the planar inhibitor. You can burst her down and ignore all mechanics with two DDs 25k+ DPS.

So, why more nerfs to this easy Dungeon?

So exactly nothing changes if you have sufficient DPS to ignore all the mechanics, thus no nerf for the elite players. For the players in vet dungeons who aren't able to pull 25k+ DPS, and heal through all the mobs, this decreases the difficulty of this fight, making it more pug-friendly (while still requiring to do mechanics), while changing nothing for speedrunning full dps groups.

Maryal · July 2017

Alcast wrote: »

Instead of keep nerfing those dungeons like WGT..already only needed half a braincell to complete those lmfao
Why not show people with actual USEFUL INGAME TIPS how they can improve their gamestyle and learn the game.

In principle I agree with this statement. I believe that, for many, there is too much of a jump between 'normal' and 'vet' modes (due to increased difficulty/game mechanics). Game guides, videos, ect., are helpful, but nothing can replace actual in-game-experience. IMO, having a difficulty level between 'normal' and 'vet,' modes would provide a better way for many players to learn increased difficulty/game mechanics (because they are learning on a gradient). I don't like seeing what is "suppose to be" some of the most difficult content constantly nerfed.

The most difficult content in the game is like the preverbal 'carrot on a string' ... the carrot dangling above you, but just out of reach, provides motivation, but, if you keep lowering it, before you know it, it's gonna get eaten up.

Rainteal · July 2017

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

I'm not an elitist, neither a snowflake. I'm a PvP-player and I don't do PvE that often anymore. So my argument should be stronger, as I have barely any continious experience in PvE. Yet I manage the hardest achievements - all it takes is a random group of people wanting to complete it, then you work together as agroup to complete that. If you read my post you would see thatI spent 4 hours getting to the last stage of Planar Inhib - just to try it another day.

As a PvP player, your argument is WEAKER, not stronger as the content you are whining about doesn't even pertain to you. Second, you just stated you had a group carry you through the dungeons to get you the skins and achievements - proving my point, lol. Lastly, neither I nor anyone else cares that it took you 4 hours to complete one boss. Good for you.

Just because it took you 4 hours to finish the boss, doesn't mean a family man working all day wants to spend what little time he has at night making no progress. Hate to burst your bubble snowflake, but a big chunk of the player base is composed of working adults with responsibilities outside of sitting on their parents' couch all day. They don't have the luxury of farming vMA for days straight or staying up til 2AM on a boss fight. Allowing "pug" groups have a more reasonable timeframe to complete a DLC dungeon (a PAID dungeon) is a welcome change by ZoS. There are plenty of players who will tell you that they haven't even touched the Hist dungeons because those dungeons were designed for coordinated groups with "nearly-BiS" gear - they don't want to spend all night burning through soul gems/gold and then get nothing for it when someone has to leave because the group's been in the dungeon for 2+ hours.

@Vercingetorix

I am a working man with a family, a very stressful grown-up career, and a few hours at night to play (like many of the men and women in my vMoL guild). I just don't believe your argument stands up or reflects the reality of who the elite are. I think it is just a differing perception of progress and the reasonable time it takes to complete challenging content. Wiping on hard bosses and failing IS progress. It gives you the opportunity to fail miserably and learn from yours and other members of the group's mistakes, and over time, adapt to and overcome serious challenges.

Sure, most people don't have the luxury of farming vMA for days straight. I don't, so I practiced it over and over and over again in my limited play time outside of work over a long period of time and got very good at it. There are try hards that could get those crazy scores shortly after it launched ( I was not one of them), but now, over this long period of time, my scores have crept a good way up the weekly leaderboard.

Just stick with the challenge, learn from mistakes, and try to look for people that have similar playtime and goals as you. They are out there wanting to work on that content too. I assure your, the taste of victory over difficult content will taste all that much sweeter when your victory did not stem from a nerf.

If you are on NA PS4, hit me up. I would love to help give you a different perspective on hard content and the folks that beat it.

Scyantific · July 2017

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Instead of keep nerfing those dungeons like WGT..already only needed half a braincell to complete those lmfao
Why not show people with actual USEFUL INGAME TIPS how they can improve their gamestyle and learn the game.

Maybe because some of us don't walk around with gold min-maxed gear and aren't disillusioned to how the other 99.9% of the player base works. You don't have to rely on the broken group finder, or hope that the other 3 players have decent gear, or pray that everyone else in the group is actually playing the role they queued for.

Lmao. Bro the dungeons can be completed by groups of 4dps already, no minmax gear needed.

Scyantific · July 2017

@Dantaria the meld rifts thing is probably because too many scrub groups wipe repeatedly at Planar Inhibitor and fail the dungeon right there.

Vaoh · July 2017

I've said it for awhile - ESO should have an Undaunted Tutorial (1-49) and Advanced Undaunted Tutorial (Lvl50+) that shows how to play your role effectively.

That's all it would take.

Ghost-Shot · July 2017

Nerfing 2 year old dungeons doesn't bother me much, if someone wanted to experience these dungeons as challenging content they've had 2 years to do so.

acw37162 · July 2017

Alcast, love your work, appreciate every single thing you do for the community but your not even on the same continent as an average player.

I'm not saying they needed nerfs but if the sevs see an issue I am more likely to trust their analysis.

Asardes · July 2017

RIP. At least back in the day I really sweated for a little insect and 2 skins.