Schrodinger's Cloak: The act of being broken, but overpowered at the same time.

ak_pvp · July 2017

After many attempts and hard work... Its still broken. Things like riposte, things that shouldn't affect it, somehow does for some reason. What spaghetti code causes something unrelated to pull you out of cloak. How are things like this still an issue. I bet instead of spending money on hiring to fix their game, they just funnel it into cosmetics creations

On the otherhand. Cloak is also brokenly overpowered as it can negate any attack whilst its going through, they can cloak even whilst rooted, and if you pull them out, mthey can pop back in straight away. There should be a 1 sec cooldown after an attack before you can cloak, so LoSing or rolling would be needed and cloak spam would be reduced.

MalakithAlamahdi · July 2017

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

leepalmer95 · July 2017

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

NightbladeMechanics · July 2017

I feel like you just don't employ a proper counter and got yourself frustrated.

MalakithAlamahdi · July 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

Not more, but better ones. Magelight and evil hunter suck, not every class has a skill like curse to pull them out and they can simply recloak right away. The passives that reduce detect distance also hits skills like magelighst so they got to be closer than 6m, so they can litterally hit you with mele without magelight spotting them. Only pods are good as a counter which is on a cooldown and a big hit for a lot of builds. They can remove pods that reveal imo if they just make the skills that should counter it better. I liked radiant magelight because it reduced the burst from stealth, but it got nerfed.

thankyourat · July 2017

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

Not more, but better ones. Magelight and evil hunter suck, not every class has a skill like curse to pull them out and they can simply recloak right away. The passives that reduce detect distance also hits skills like magelighst so they got to be closer than 6m, so they can litterally hit you with mele without magelight spotting them. Only pods are good as a counter which is on a cooldown and a big hit for a lot of builds. They can remove pods that reveal imo if they just make the skills that should counter it better. I liked radiant magelight because it reduced the burst from stealth, but it got nerfed.

What about aoe abilities? They are every where and they pull nightblades out of stealth.

ak_pvp · July 2017

thankyourat wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

Not more, but better ones. Magelight and evil hunter suck, not every class has a skill like curse to pull them out and they can simply recloak right away. The passives that reduce detect distance also hits skills like magelighst so they got to be closer than 6m, so they can litterally hit you with mele without magelight spotting them. Only pods are good as a counter which is on a cooldown and a big hit for a lot of builds. They can remove pods that reveal imo if they just make the skills that should counter it better. I liked radiant magelight because it reduced the burst from stealth, but it got nerfed.

What about aoe abilities? They are every where and they pull nightblades out of stealth.

Use an AoE and they can go straight back into cloak. They can actually completely negate my burst combo whilst still rooted.

ChandraNalaar · July 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I feel like you just don't employ a proper counter and got yourself frustrated.

Basically. There have been numerous threads on cloak being broken and being too overpowered and needing nerfed. Cloak doesn't honestly need another nerf on top of all the other nightblade nerfs that are being tossed around. Everyone needs to learn how to counterplay somebody who is cloaking instead of just crying "nerf it! remove it!" in the forums constantly.

ak_pvp · July 2017

ChandraNalaar wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I feel like you just don't employ a proper counter and got yourself frustrated.

Basically. There have been numerous threads on cloak being broken and being too overpowered and needing nerfed. Cloak doesn't honestly need another nerf on top of all the other nightblade nerfs that are being tossed around. Everyone needs to learn how to counterplay somebody who is cloaking instead of just crying "nerf it! remove it!" in the forums constantly.

So you think its fair to be able to completely negate damage, even whilst rooted, even directly after you have been damaged?

Well ok then.

Knootewoot · July 2017

Cloak is the reason there are still LA melee magblades around it. We do not need better counters to cloak.

How about a counter to Dodgeroll. When rooted that should not even work.

Wing · July 2017

detection pots, 15 seconds of "gotcha!" and "HOW DO THEY SEE ME!!!!"

ak_pvp · July 2017

Knootewoot wrote: »

Cloak is the reason there are still LA melee magblades around it. We do not need better counters to cloak.

How about a counter to Dodgeroll. When rooted that should not even work.

w0t.

DR is the only way out of roots aside from time. That idea is awful.

Knootewoot · July 2017

Wing wrote: »

detection pots, 15 seconds of "gotcha!" and "HOW DO THEY SEE ME!!!!"

Indeed. Detection pots are already OP to find stealhed/cloaked NB's. No need to nerf cloak. Most people who have trouble with cloak are just to lazy to make pots or make use of any of the other available tools.

rfennell_ESO · July 2017

The Schrodinger's cloak as a title is actually pretty appropriate.

Cloak has been in many states, from flat out broken and nearly useless to clearly overpowered... and usually both those things, in some way, at the very same time.

Currently cloak is powerful, but not without it's flaws.

Those that want to do the l2p response are mostly those that don't want some of the issues regarding cloak being overpowered in certain situations that they likely abuse. Particularly running snare/root immunity coupled with movement speed... which makes locking down a cloaking nightblade nearly impossible. Not even a detect pot is really going to help when you are dealing with +movement speed + dodge rolling + sprinting to get out of range before they just start cloaking again.

The only real counter to cloaking nightblades is piercing mark.

With the nerfing of sustain, more people need to use resource potions and detect pots become less likely, besides.... it's only a 20 meter range detect.

I guess the problem people have with cloak is that... when used to it's fullest, it can act as effectively as a full tanking build. I think the counter argument would be that it's exactly what cloak is intended to be.

If you are prepared for dealing with a cloak spamming gank via proc (instead of skill) nightblade... they actually aren't very hard to deal with. But, in most situations of running in pvp... it's in your best interest of performance not to be in that setup.

Point being: cloak is both overpowered and totally broken or useless as the same time indeed.

Derra · July 2017

try hitting a nightblade thats moving away from you while cloaking with projectiles while you have a detection potion running.
you can not hit them due to spaghetticode - everything still misses.

I don´t even use detect pots against a competent nb bc it´s just a waste of a potion cooldown.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · July 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

Not more, but better ones. Magelight and evil hunter suck, not every class has a skill like curse to pull them out and they can simply recloak right away. The passives that reduce detect distance also hits skills like magelighst so they got to be closer than 6m, so they can litterally hit you with mele without magelight spotting them. Only pods are good as a counter which is on a cooldown and a big hit for a lot of builds. They can remove pods that reveal imo if they just make the skills that should counter it better. I liked radiant magelight because it reduced the burst from stealth, but it got nerfed.

What about aoe abilities? They are every where and they pull nightblades out of stealth.

Use an AoE and they can go straight back into cloak. They can actually completely negate my burst combo whilst still rooted.

I see no problem with this a you can still heal, block, shield and otherwise defend when rooted. Cloak is the defensive power for Nightblades.

ak_pvp wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

Not more, but better ones. Magelight and evil hunter suck, not every class has a skill like curse to pull them out and they can simply recloak right away. The passives that reduce detect distance also hits skills like magelighst so they got to be closer than 6m, so they can litterally hit you with mele without magelight spotting them. Only pods are good as a counter which is on a cooldown and a big hit for a lot of builds. They can remove pods that reveal imo if they just make the skills that should counter it better. I liked radiant magelight because it reduced the burst from stealth, but it got nerfed.

What about aoe abilities? They are every where and they pull nightblades out of stealth.

Use an AoE and they can go straight back into cloak. They can actually completely negate my burst combo whilst still rooted.

Again Cloak is the defending power for the class Nightblades are the only class without class shields. This is have they live. Your logic morales no sense when looking at other defensive powers. You can shield, heal and block after an attack and while rooted so why should Cloak not work the same way.

Dyride · July 2017

Just from personal experience, Hurricane it's not nearly a effective now as a counter to cloak. The AOE will pull them out on the next tick but commonly they cloak and are out of range by that time.

ak_pvp · July 2017

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

Not more, but better ones. Magelight and evil hunter suck, not every class has a skill like curse to pull them out and they can simply recloak right away. The passives that reduce detect distance also hits skills like magelighst so they got to be closer than 6m, so they can litterally hit you with mele without magelight spotting them. Only pods are good as a counter which is on a cooldown and a big hit for a lot of builds. They can remove pods that reveal imo if they just make the skills that should counter it better. I liked radiant magelight because it reduced the burst from stealth, but it got nerfed.

What about aoe abilities? They are every where and they pull nightblades out of stealth.

Use an AoE and they can go straight back into cloak. They can actually completely negate my burst combo whilst still rooted.

I see no problem with this a you can still heal, block, shield and otherwise defend when rooted. Cloak is the defensive power for Nightblades.

ak_pvp wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

Not more, but better ones. Magelight and evil hunter suck, not every class has a skill like curse to pull them out and they can simply recloak right away. The passives that reduce detect distance also hits skills like magelighst so they got to be closer than 6m, so they can litterally hit you with mele without magelight spotting them. Only pods are good as a counter which is on a cooldown and a big hit for a lot of builds. They can remove pods that reveal imo if they just make the skills that should counter it better. I liked radiant magelight because it reduced the burst from stealth, but it got nerfed.

What about aoe abilities? They are every where and they pull nightblades out of stealth.

Use an AoE and they can go straight back into cloak. They can actually completely negate my burst combo whilst still rooted.

Again Cloak is the defending power for the class Nightblades are the only class without class shields. This is have they live. Your logic morales no sense when looking at other defensive powers. You can shield, heal and block after an attack and while rooted so why should Cloak not work the same way.

NBs can shield/heal/block too. All of these things still take damage. Not completely negate the every single effect by making them untargetable, be it damage, stuns or any adverse affect non aoe. Its stupid. Not to mention the classes that can cloak indefinitely.

rfennell_ESO · July 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

Not more, but better ones. Magelight and evil hunter suck, not every class has a skill like curse to pull them out and they can simply recloak right away. The passives that reduce detect distance also hits skills like magelighst so they got to be closer than 6m, so they can litterally hit you with mele without magelight spotting them. Only pods are good as a counter which is on a cooldown and a big hit for a lot of builds. They can remove pods that reveal imo if they just make the skills that should counter it better. I liked radiant magelight because it reduced the burst from stealth, but it got nerfed.

What about aoe abilities? They are every where and they pull nightblades out of stealth.

Use an AoE and they can go straight back into cloak. They can actually completely negate my burst combo whilst still rooted.

I see no problem with this a you can still heal, block, shield and otherwise defend when rooted. Cloak is the defensive power for Nightblades.

ak_pvp wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

Not more, but better ones. Magelight and evil hunter suck, not every class has a skill like curse to pull them out and they can simply recloak right away. The passives that reduce detect distance also hits skills like magelighst so they got to be closer than 6m, so they can litterally hit you with mele without magelight spotting them. Only pods are good as a counter which is on a cooldown and a big hit for a lot of builds. They can remove pods that reveal imo if they just make the skills that should counter it better. I liked radiant magelight because it reduced the burst from stealth, but it got nerfed.

What about aoe abilities? They are every where and they pull nightblades out of stealth.

Use an AoE and they can go straight back into cloak. They can actually completely negate my burst combo whilst still rooted.

Again Cloak is the defending power for the class Nightblades are the only class without class shields. This is have they live. Your logic morales no sense when looking at other defensive powers. You can shield, heal and block after an attack and while rooted so why should Cloak not work the same way.

NBs can shield/heal/block too. All of these things still take damage. Not completely negate the every single effect by making them untargetable, be it damage, stuns or any adverse affect non aoe. Its stupid. Not to mention the classes that can cloak indefinitely.

Magblades are the only ones that truly can cloak indefinitely, and they lack true burst past their 5 light attacks to proc spectral bow and try and line that up with something else.

Any stamblade with unlimited sustain on magicka recovery is either up to no good or seriously reduced their potential damage. You have to give up something to get there, and that something is always damage.

Like your thread title said... cloak is both broken and overpowered at the same time much like the cat is both alive and dead. Those that take advantage of cloak to maximize the overpowered aspect of it and minimize it's weaknesses usually have to pay a price to do so.

The current balance of broken versus overpowered is in a fairly good place. It's not totally broken like it was pre-morrowind, and it's not totally overpowered like it was at IC release.

The thing is... the nature of the ability makes it both broken and overpowered at times. Those that know how to use it can make it seem overpowered, but really... it's their only defense.

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2017

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

Not more, but better ones. Magelight and evil hunter suck, not every class has a skill like curse to pull them out and they can simply recloak right away. The passives that reduce detect distance also hits skills like magelighst so they got to be closer than 6m, so they can litterally hit you with mele without magelight spotting them. Only pods are good as a counter which is on a cooldown and a big hit for a lot of builds. They can remove pods that reveal imo if they just make the skills that should counter it better. I liked radiant magelight because it reduced the burst from stealth, but it got nerfed.

What about aoe abilities? They are every where and they pull nightblades out of stealth.

Use an AoE and they can go straight back into cloak. They can actually completely negate my burst combo whilst still rooted.

I see no problem with this a you can still heal, block, shield and otherwise defend when rooted. Cloak is the defensive power for Nightblades.

ak_pvp wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

Not more, but better ones. Magelight and evil hunter suck, not every class has a skill like curse to pull them out and they can simply recloak right away. The passives that reduce detect distance also hits skills like magelighst so they got to be closer than 6m, so they can litterally hit you with mele without magelight spotting them. Only pods are good as a counter which is on a cooldown and a big hit for a lot of builds. They can remove pods that reveal imo if they just make the skills that should counter it better. I liked radiant magelight because it reduced the burst from stealth, but it got nerfed.

What about aoe abilities? They are every where and they pull nightblades out of stealth.

Use an AoE and they can go straight back into cloak. They can actually completely negate my burst combo whilst still rooted.

Again Cloak is the defending power for the class Nightblades are the only class without class shields. This is have they live. Your logic morales no sense when looking at other defensive powers. You can shield, heal and block after an attack and while rooted so why should Cloak not work the same way.

NBs can shield/heal/block too. All of these things still take damage. Not completely negate the every single effect by making them untargetable, be it damage, stuns or any adverse affect non aoe. Its stupid. Not to mention the classes that can cloak indefinitely.

Magblades are the only ones that truly can cloak indefinitely, and they lack true burst past their 5 light attacks to proc spectral bow and try and line that up with something else.

Any stamblade with unlimited sustain on magicka recovery is either up to no good or seriously reduced their potential damage. You have to give up something to get there, and that something is always damage.

Like your thread title said... cloak is both broken and overpowered at the same time much like the cat is both alive and dead. Those that take advantage of cloak to maximize the overpowered aspect of it and minimize it's weaknesses usually have to pay a price to do so.

The current balance of broken versus overpowered is in a fairly good place. It's not totally broken like it was pre-morrowind, and it's not totally overpowered like it was at IC release.

The thing is... the nature of the ability makes it both broken and overpowered at times. Those that know how to use it can make it seem overpowered, but really... it's their only defense.

Their only defensive besides shields, block, dodge, mitigation, buffs and heals? So like what every other class has, besides cloak of course.

Edit: Ups, forgot shuffle.

rfennell_ESO · July 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

Not more, but better ones. Magelight and evil hunter suck, not every class has a skill like curse to pull them out and they can simply recloak right away. The passives that reduce detect distance also hits skills like magelighst so they got to be closer than 6m, so they can litterally hit you with mele without magelight spotting them. Only pods are good as a counter which is on a cooldown and a big hit for a lot of builds. They can remove pods that reveal imo if they just make the skills that should counter it better. I liked radiant magelight because it reduced the burst from stealth, but it got nerfed.

What about aoe abilities? They are every where and they pull nightblades out of stealth.

Use an AoE and they can go straight back into cloak. They can actually completely negate my burst combo whilst still rooted.

I see no problem with this a you can still heal, block, shield and otherwise defend when rooted. Cloak is the defensive power for Nightblades.

ak_pvp wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

Not more, but better ones. Magelight and evil hunter suck, not every class has a skill like curse to pull them out and they can simply recloak right away. The passives that reduce detect distance also hits skills like magelighst so they got to be closer than 6m, so they can litterally hit you with mele without magelight spotting them. Only pods are good as a counter which is on a cooldown and a big hit for a lot of builds. They can remove pods that reveal imo if they just make the skills that should counter it better. I liked radiant magelight because it reduced the burst from stealth, but it got nerfed.

What about aoe abilities? They are every where and they pull nightblades out of stealth.

Use an AoE and they can go straight back into cloak. They can actually completely negate my burst combo whilst still rooted.

Again Cloak is the defending power for the class Nightblades are the only class without class shields. This is have they live. Your logic morales no sense when looking at other defensive powers. You can shield, heal and block after an attack and while rooted so why should Cloak not work the same way.

NBs can shield/heal/block too. All of these things still take damage. Not completely negate the every single effect by making them untargetable, be it damage, stuns or any adverse affect non aoe. Its stupid. Not to mention the classes that can cloak indefinitely.

Magblades are the only ones that truly can cloak indefinitely, and they lack true burst past their 5 light attacks to proc spectral bow and try and line that up with something else.

Any stamblade with unlimited sustain on magicka recovery is either up to no good or seriously reduced their potential damage. You have to give up something to get there, and that something is always damage.

Like your thread title said... cloak is both broken and overpowered at the same time much like the cat is both alive and dead. Those that take advantage of cloak to maximize the overpowered aspect of it and minimize it's weaknesses usually have to pay a price to do so.

The current balance of broken versus overpowered is in a fairly good place. It's not totally broken like it was pre-morrowind, and it's not totally overpowered like it was at IC release.

The thing is... the nature of the ability makes it both broken and overpowered at times. Those that know how to use it can make it seem overpowered, but really... it's their only defense.

Their only defensive besides shields, block, dodge, mitigation, buffs and heals? So like what every other class has, besides cloak of course.

What I mean is that you can actually get away with just cloak and forego most other things if you know what you are doing with it and can maintain distance. In a perfect world, of course. Obviously many will augment the defensive ability of cloak.

The reason for the sheer effectiveness of many current gankblade setups (other than procs, of course) is that you can rely nearly entirely on cloak for defense (yah with a dodge roll just before it, no doubt). Keep in mind this is situational, and that situation is limited to small scale fights. In cases like this... you can make the argument that cloak is a bit overpowered.

It's probably the hardest "ability" to get right for ZOS.

edit: ps you can forego shuffle too.;p

Lexxypwns · July 2017

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

Not more, but better ones. Magelight and evil hunter suck, not every class has a skill like curse to pull them out and they can simply recloak right away. The passives that reduce detect distance also hits skills like magelighst so they got to be closer than 6m, so they can litterally hit you with mele without magelight spotting them. Only pods are good as a counter which is on a cooldown and a big hit for a lot of builds. They can remove pods that reveal imo if they just make the skills that should counter it better. I liked radiant magelight because it reduced the burst from stealth, but it got nerfed.

What about aoe abilities? They are every where and they pull nightblades out of stealth.

Use an AoE and they can go straight back into cloak. They can actually completely negate my burst combo whilst still rooted.

I see no problem with this a you can still heal, block, shield and otherwise defend when rooted. Cloak is the defensive power for Nightblades.

ak_pvp wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

Not more, but better ones. Magelight and evil hunter suck, not every class has a skill like curse to pull them out and they can simply recloak right away. The passives that reduce detect distance also hits skills like magelighst so they got to be closer than 6m, so they can litterally hit you with mele without magelight spotting them. Only pods are good as a counter which is on a cooldown and a big hit for a lot of builds. They can remove pods that reveal imo if they just make the skills that should counter it better. I liked radiant magelight because it reduced the burst from stealth, but it got nerfed.

What about aoe abilities? They are every where and they pull nightblades out of stealth.

Use an AoE and they can go straight back into cloak. They can actually completely negate my burst combo whilst still rooted.

Again Cloak is the defending power for the class Nightblades are the only class without class shields. This is have they live. Your logic morales no sense when looking at other defensive powers. You can shield, heal and block after an attack and while rooted so why should Cloak not work the same way.

NBs can shield/heal/block too. All of these things still take damage. Not completely negate the every single effect by making them untargetable, be it damage, stuns or any adverse affect non aoe. Its stupid. Not to mention the classes that can cloak indefinitely.

Magblades are the only ones that truly can cloak indefinitely, and they lack true burst past their 5 light attacks to proc spectral bow and try and line that up with something else.

Any stamblade with unlimited sustain on magicka recovery is either up to no good or seriously reduced their potential damage. You have to give up something to get there, and that something is always damage.

Like your thread title said... cloak is both broken and overpowered at the same time much like the cat is both alive and dead. Those that take advantage of cloak to maximize the overpowered aspect of it and minimize it's weaknesses usually have to pay a price to do so.

The current balance of broken versus overpowered is in a fairly good place. It's not totally broken like it was pre-morrowind, and it's not totally overpowered like it was at IC release.

The thing is... the nature of the ability makes it both broken and overpowered at times. Those that know how to use it can make it seem overpowered, but really... it's their only defense.

i
think cloak is fine, but Stamblade can cloak infinitely as well. 5pc shadow walker

Sylosi · July 2017

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

It's probably the hardest "ability" to get right for ZOS.

There is no getting invisibility right, the only MMORPG that has ever got it right is the only one that ever had really good PvP (Guild Wars 1), and they got it right by having the balls to come out with the truth that as a mechanic it is impossible to balance, so it was better for the game simply not to have it.

thankyourat · July 2017

Sylosi wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

It's probably the hardest "ability" to get right for ZOS.

There is no getting invisibility right, the only MMORPG that has ever got it right is the only one that ever had really good PvP (Guild Wars 1), and they got it right by having the balls to come out with the truth that as a mechanic it is impossible to balance, so it was better for the game simply not to have it.

Cloak is pretty balanced in eso right now because it's strong but it also has alot of counters. the fact that you can spam it isn't so broken because you can also spam aoes to pull nightblades out of cloak

Brutusmax1mus · July 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

Not more, but better ones. Magelight and evil hunter suck, not every class has a skill like curse to pull them out and they can simply recloak right away. The passives that reduce detect distance also hits skills like magelighst so they got to be closer than 6m, so they can litterally hit you with mele without magelight spotting them. Only pods are good as a counter which is on a cooldown and a big hit for a lot of builds. They can remove pods that reveal imo if they just make the skills that should counter it better. I liked radiant magelight because it reduced the burst from stealth, but it got nerfed.

What about aoe abilities? They are every where and they pull nightblades out of stealth.

Use an AoE and they can go straight back into cloak. They can actually completely negate my burst combo whilst still rooted.

I see no problem with this a you can still heal, block, shield and otherwise defend when rooted. Cloak is the defensive power for Nightblades.

ak_pvp wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

Not more, but better ones. Magelight and evil hunter suck, not every class has a skill like curse to pull them out and they can simply recloak right away. The passives that reduce detect distance also hits skills like magelighst so they got to be closer than 6m, so they can litterally hit you with mele without magelight spotting them. Only pods are good as a counter which is on a cooldown and a big hit for a lot of builds. They can remove pods that reveal imo if they just make the skills that should counter it better. I liked radiant magelight because it reduced the burst from stealth, but it got nerfed.

What about aoe abilities? They are every where and they pull nightblades out of stealth.

Use an AoE and they can go straight back into cloak. They can actually completely negate my burst combo whilst still rooted.

Again Cloak is the defending power for the class Nightblades are the only class without class shields. This is have they live. Your logic morales no sense when looking at other defensive powers. You can shield, heal and block after an attack and while rooted so why should Cloak not work the same way.

NBs can shield/heal/block too. All of these things still take damage. Not completely negate the every single effect by making them untargetable, be it damage, stuns or any adverse affect non aoe. Its stupid. Not to mention the classes that can cloak indefinitely.

Magblades are the only ones that truly can cloak indefinitely, and they lack true burst past their 5 light attacks to proc spectral bow and try and line that up with something else.

Any stamblade with unlimited sustain on magicka recovery is either up to no good or seriously reduced their potential damage. You have to give up something to get there, and that something is always damage.

Like your thread title said... cloak is both broken and overpowered at the same time much like the cat is both alive and dead. Those that take advantage of cloak to maximize the overpowered aspect of it and minimize it's weaknesses usually have to pay a price to do so.

The current balance of broken versus overpowered is in a fairly good place. It's not totally broken like it was pre-morrowind, and it's not totally overpowered like it was at IC release.

The thing is... the nature of the ability makes it both broken and overpowered at times. Those that know how to use it can make it seem overpowered, but really... it's their only defense.

i
think cloak is fine, but Stamblade can cloak infinitely as well. 5pc shadow walker

Shadow walker is just stam and health recovery. It also takes a large amount of magicka to pull off unless you're fighting a potato.

glavius · July 2017

Mark target poisons counter cloak quite well. Especially because the NB cant see that he is market like he can with the mark target skill.

Sylosi · July 2017

thankyourat wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

It's probably the hardest "ability" to get right for ZOS.

There is no getting invisibility right, the only MMORPG that has ever got it right is the only one that ever had really good PvP (Guild Wars 1), and they got it right by having the balls to come out with the truth that as a mechanic it is impossible to balance, so it was better for the game simply not to have it.

Cloak is pretty balanced in eso right now because it's strong but it also has alot of counters. the fact that you can spam it isn't so broken because you can also spam aoes to pull nightblades out of cloak

Invisibility has never been balanced in MMORPGs, especially in open world type PvP, the simple act of me being crouched stealth in ESO in Cyrodil and then attacking someone riding by unaware of me is completely imbalanced, impossible to balance, let alone cloak.

As a mechanic (at least as it is implemented 99% of the time in MMORPGs) it is simply impossible to balance, because it is massively one sided, in both terms of information and skill onus, and that even the laughably termed counterplay much of the time relies on guesswork to "work".

It is especially imbalanced in open world type PvP, because at least in small team instanced PvP there is a limited play area where fights are often forced into an area, objectives that often anti-invisibility (can't carry flags or contest capture points), a score ticking away to provide punishment to disengaging from fights and that players can somewhat keep track of each other on a team size of 4 or 5, there is none of that in open world type PvP where invisibility (and extreme mobility in regard to engage/disengage) simply break a fundamental principle of PvP - risk vs reward.

The way invisibility is implemented in PvP in nearly every MMORPG is just one of the many reasons the PvP in them is regarded as a joke.

MalakithAlamahdi · July 2017

Just checked the counter again this update. AOE doesn't hit cloaked people the majority of the time even from 1m away for no reason. Evil hunter does nothing and has less range than uppercut, the same go's for magelight (they need to touch you to work to begin with). Purifying light and curse are okay ish, but isn't really a counter as you'll have to reapply it right after it go's off which forces you to wait again. Mark is a good counter but only available to NB's. Potion is on a cooldown much greater than the duration the person can't cloak, so you either have to burst him right after if he's in the radius of it, or wait again. Dot's get suppressed and don't do anything. Calltrops is good but is stam only, and also doesn't always pull the person out for some reason.

I get that NB's need a defence because they're generally squishy, but cloak isn't balanced and it never will be the way it's implemented.

worsttankever · July 2017

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

Potion is on a cooldown much greater than the duration the person can't cloak, so you either have to burst him right after if he's in the radius of it, or wait again.

Potion is even worse in non-vet - e.g. level 20 detect potion (cornflower, wormwood, whitecap) lasts 5.2 seconds.

On my Magicka DK I'm hoping Revealing Flare works out. Magelight was a joke.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · July 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

Not more, but better ones. Magelight and evil hunter suck, not every class has a skill like curse to pull them out and they can simply recloak right away. The passives that reduce detect distance also hits skills like magelighst so they got to be closer than 6m, so they can litterally hit you with mele without magelight spotting them. Only pods are good as a counter which is on a cooldown and a big hit for a lot of builds. They can remove pods that reveal imo if they just make the skills that should counter it better. I liked radiant magelight because it reduced the burst from stealth, but it got nerfed.

What about aoe abilities? They are every where and they pull nightblades out of stealth.

Use an AoE and they can go straight back into cloak. They can actually completely negate my burst combo whilst still rooted.

I see no problem with this a you can still heal, block, shield and otherwise defend when rooted. Cloak is the defensive power for Nightblades.

ak_pvp wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

They should just fix being pulled out for no reason but buff the counters to it. Currently only pods are good and skills like curse, but you can just claok again. Wish they didn't need radiant magelight 50% damage reduction form sneak.

Cloak really doesn't need more counters..

Not more, but better ones. Magelight and evil hunter suck, not every class has a skill like curse to pull them out and they can simply recloak right away. The passives that reduce detect distance also hits skills like magelighst so they got to be closer than 6m, so they can litterally hit you with mele without magelight spotting them. Only pods are good as a counter which is on a cooldown and a big hit for a lot of builds. They can remove pods that reveal imo if they just make the skills that should counter it better. I liked radiant magelight because it reduced the burst from stealth, but it got nerfed.

What about aoe abilities? They are every where and they pull nightblades out of stealth.

Use an AoE and they can go straight back into cloak. They can actually completely negate my burst combo whilst still rooted.

Again Cloak is the defending power for the class Nightblades are the only class without class shields. This is have they live. Your logic morales no sense when looking at other defensive powers. You can shield, heal and block after an attack and while rooted so why should Cloak not work the same way.

NBs can shield/heal/block too. All of these things still take damage. Not completely negate the every single effect by making them untargetable, be it damage, stuns or any adverse affect non aoe. Its stupid. Not to mention the classes that can cloak indefinitely.

It's not that we can't shield be you have to have a healing staff or use the nerfed Harness. Bone Shield is health based. You can't put a good shield on One hand and Shield as a Nightblade.

We can heal but we have a long list a weak heals and HoTs good as the HoT maybe it's not as good as a burst heal. We are more limited in weapons while also needing to kick off heal while at 100%.

I'm sure you never played a Nightblade we can't negate AoE damage and AoE damage is everywhere. You take it cloaked or not.

KingYogi415 · July 2017

If only there was some type of magic potion that could help you detect invisable enemy combatants....

Oh well guess not, better down to our NightBlade overlords!!!