MLRPZ wrote: »

why is it absurd ? do you think because we play bombgroup we appreciate rollbacks/loadingscreens/queues/lag and crashes ?
We just want to play, just like you

Yeah but you play in a way that has direct and indirect effects on serverperformance - moreso than other ways of playing the game have.
You (and everyone else in any other large semiorganized group) are part of the problem you complain about.

Edit: It´s basically the same thing as the "solo players" fighting blues outside of warden/rayles in the morning while saras/bigboss is inside taking the keep/scrolls.

MLRPZ wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

MLRPZ wrote: »

why is it absurd ? do you think because we play bombgroup we appreciate rollbacks/loadingscreens/queues/lag and crashes ?
We just want to play, just like you

Yeah but you play in a way that has direct and indirect effects on serverperformance - moreso than other ways of playing the game have.
You (and everyone else in any other large semiorganized group) are part of the problem you complain about.

Edit: It´s basically the same thing as the "solo players" fighting blues outside of warden/rayles in the morning while saras/bigboss is inside taking the keep/scrolls.

So if everyone is the problem, maybe we should all accept that the problem is not on our end ?

That's why we decided to post multiples threads, just to try and catch ZOS attention on this issue. Tho I genuinly doubt it will happen..

Ofc it´s also on the players end just as much as it´s on ZOS.

Imo it´s on zos to fix playerbehavior as players won´t fix that themselves. I don´t think a code solution is possible at this point (either due to ressources it would require or due to being impossible to begin with).

Just gut the total groupsize to a point where it´s undesirable to have superspecific buffbots (ie rapidspambot) and make aoe healcaps subject to battlespirit reduction aswell as nonsingletarget heals only affect groupmembers.

@ZOS_GinaBruno still no answer from your crew...

HEY!

So what now. ZS played on Vivec today, @Isbilen . But it didn't crash. Unfriendly Fire didn't play today - so should we blame them? Since it crashes when they're raiding too.
Or wait - maybe we should blame Shadow's League. They didn't raid today either. But they used to raid same time as ZS. LET'S JUST BLAME EVERY GUILD, YES? Sounds good. Gotta love presenting arguments that suddenly doesn't hold water, right?

Or just poke @Rin_Senya and give her a cookie for not pushing the "Crash EU-server button"

@Derra
It's quite convient that none of your suggested changes have any impact on your playstyle, isn't it? I honestly dont see how changing groupsize to ~5 people would improve anything. People would just stop playing because they can't play with their friends in a largescale setting and still get ran over by a 3x 5 man ZS raid. Organisation will always overcome pugging especially with the amount of possibilities you have in this game. If they remove skills like purge and maneuver it will hurt groups ofc but what if we start just sitting in keeps spamming siege and roots on people. Fights will still be endless, nothing will change. Over time there have been so many skills that our raid was supposedly reliant on, yet when those skills got actually nerfed we were still fine, arguably even stronger because we figured out alternatives way before our enemies.

Performance is way better on Sotha Sil than it is on Vivec, so let's remove cp on all campaigns. The server cant handle CP obviously, they are the problem. Or would you disagree - perhaps because it will hurt your preferred playstyle? If so, then what if I told you that our playstyle was better since we dont need CP but yours does, effectively making you responsible for the lag? //not that I'm actually saying so, it's more about delivering a message

Of course there is a point at which you can blame players for causing issues by playing in a way that wasn't intended and the server can't handle (for example I would blame someone who is stacking 3 organised raids for lagging the server). However I honestly think it is extremely questionable that the 12-15 man groups we run is bigger than what the game was designed for, especially considering the history of the game, where for the longest time 24 man or even more was considered the standard for organised raids.
It's like if you buy a new car: If you try to drive with 300 km/h and something breaks it's your fault for pushing the limits of the car. If something breaks while you drive 120 km/h, it's the fault of the company that built the car.

Derra wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@Derra
It's quite convient that none of your suggested changes have any impact on your playstyle, isn't it? I honestly dont see how changing groupsize to ~5 people would improve anything. People would just stop playing because they can't play with their friends in a largescale setting and still get ran over by a 3x 5 man ZS raid. Organisation will always overcome pugging especially with the amount of possibilities you have in this game. If they remove skills like purge and maneuver it will hurt groups ofc but what if we start just sitting in keeps spamming siege and roots on people. Fights will still be endless, nothing will change. Over time there have been so many skills that our raid was supposedly reliant on, yet when those skills got actually nerfed we were still fine, arguably even stronger because we figured out alternatives way before our enemies.

Performance is way better on Sotha Sil than it is on Vivec, so let's remove cp on all campaigns. The server cant handle CP obviously, they are the problem. Or would you disagree - perhaps because it will hurt your preferred playstyle? If so, then what if I told you that our playstyle was better since we dont need CP but yours does, effectively making you responsible for the lag? //not that I'm actually saying so, it's more about delivering a message

Of course there is a point at which you can blame players for causing issues by playing in a way that wasn't intended and the server can't handle (for example I would blame someone who is stacking 3 organised raids for lagging the server). However I honestly think it is extremely questionable that the 12-15 man groups we run is bigger than what the game was designed for, especially considering the history of the game, where for the longest time 24 man or even more was considered the standard for organised raids.
It's like if you buy a new car: If you try to drive with 300 km/h and something breaks it's your fault for pushing the limits of the car. If something breaks while you drive 120 km/h, it's the fault of the company that built the car.

I can only attribute your lack in imagination on how groupsize affects largescale pvp (mostly for the better) on you never having played any other game than ESO that supported largescale open world pvp.

I´ve personally played four titles that placed a major focus on largescale open world pvp and retrospectively it´s very clear why the titles with somewhat chaotic fights (large scale small groups) were much better than the organised (large scale large group) titles.

Maybe you´ll play CU, maybe they´ll stick to their groupsize of 6 to 10. Maybe you´ll understand what i mean then.

Otherwise you can join me in TS and i´ll explain to you why the groupsize in eso is problematic in relation to the total amount of enemies it allows you to handle.
It has nothing to do with me wanting something bad for you personally. I want to participate in everythign pvp has to offer. Largegroups deny everyone not running a large group that possibility.
Smaller groups do/would not be able to achieve that.
The key for me is possibility of participation (the lag it creates is just a bonus).

The problem with your car analogy is: Yeah you´re maybe going 120mph - but youre towing 4 orther cars while doing so - which you ofc comfortably ignore.
I´ve said many times: The problem is not your groupsize. It´s the sheer amout of players you can attract (and need to for a desireable AP/H) and not die while farming them over and over creating fight symbols attracting more players in the process.
The fights last too long. It work in a way that either you kill them shortly after the first engagement or they kill you.

There lies the most important problem on your last argument the fact that death means kinda nothing in this game. Once we kill people they just rez in our face and we can't do much about it and that's mostly why the fights are prolonged unnecesarily. Since it's impossible for us to kill the zombie horde we have to settle for surviving long enough against them. We repeatedly asked zos to add even a small 20-30 sec cd on soul gem rezing after the first rez but to no avail.

kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@Derra
It's quite convient that none of your suggested changes have any impact on your playstyle, isn't it? I honestly dont see how changing groupsize to ~5 people would improve anything. People would just stop playing because they can't play with their friends in a largescale setting and still get ran over by a 3x 5 man ZS raid. Organisation will always overcome pugging especially with the amount of possibilities you have in this game. If they remove skills like purge and maneuver it will hurt groups ofc but what if we start just sitting in keeps spamming siege and roots on people. Fights will still be endless, nothing will change. Over time there have been so many skills that our raid was supposedly reliant on, yet when those skills got actually nerfed we were still fine, arguably even stronger because we figured out alternatives way before our enemies.

Performance is way better on Sotha Sil than it is on Vivec, so let's remove cp on all campaigns. The server cant handle CP obviously, they are the problem. Or would you disagree - perhaps because it will hurt your preferred playstyle? If so, then what if I told you that our playstyle was better since we dont need CP but yours does, effectively making you responsible for the lag? //not that I'm actually saying so, it's more about delivering a message

Of course there is a point at which you can blame players for causing issues by playing in a way that wasn't intended and the server can't handle (for example I would blame someone who is stacking 3 organised raids for lagging the server). However I honestly think it is extremely questionable that the 12-15 man groups we run is bigger than what the game was designed for, especially considering the history of the game, where for the longest time 24 man or even more was considered the standard for organised raids.
It's like if you buy a new car: If you try to drive with 300 km/h and something breaks it's your fault for pushing the limits of the car. If something breaks while you drive 120 km/h, it's the fault of the company that built the car.

I can only attribute your lack in imagination on how groupsize affects largescale pvp (mostly for the better) on you never having played any other game than ESO that supported largescale open world pvp.

I´ve personally played four titles that placed a major focus on largescale open world pvp and retrospectively it´s very clear why the titles with somewhat chaotic fights (large scale small groups) were much better than the organised (large scale large group) titles.

Maybe you´ll play CU, maybe they´ll stick to their groupsize of 6 to 10. Maybe you´ll understand what i mean then.

Otherwise you can join me in TS and i´ll explain to you why the groupsize in eso is problematic in relation to the total amount of enemies it allows you to handle.
It has nothing to do with me wanting something bad for you personally. I want to participate in everythign pvp has to offer. Largegroups deny everyone not running a large group that possibility.
Smaller groups do/would not be able to achieve that.
The key for me is possibility of participation (the lag it creates is just a bonus).

The problem with your car analogy is: Yeah you´re maybe going 120mph - but youre towing 4 orther cars while doing so - which you ofc comfortably ignore.
I´ve said many times: The problem is not your groupsize. It´s the sheer amout of players you can attract (and need to for a desireable AP/H) and not die while farming them over and over creating fight symbols attracting more players in the process.
The fights last too long. It work in a way that either you kill them shortly after the first engagement or they kill you.

There lies the most important problem on your last argument the fact that death means kinda nothing in this game. Once we kill people they just rez in our face and we can't do much about it and that's mostly why the fights are prolonged unnecesarily. Since it's impossible for us to kill the zombie horde we have to settle for surviving long enough against them. We repeatedly asked zos to add even a small 20-30 sec cd on soul gem rezing after the first rez but to no avail.

And i 100% agree. Rezzing should cost atleast 100 ultimate and be interrupted by every attack (like placing camps/siege).
Burning camps should not be interrupted by anything.

The problem remaining would be large groups forming an exclusive club where they have no competition outside of other large groups.
I´d be in favor of making the zombiehorde killable but also breaking the largegroup monarchy on pvp at the same time

Edit: In a way that when good groups finally can bring closure to an outnumbered fight they need to reduce the amount of people these groups can handle and win - because as you said: when half of the DC faction is following you and you can kill half of an entire faction that´s not healthy for the game imo.

MLRPZ wrote: »

@Derra were you here yesterday prime time to witness the scroll fight or even roe fight ? How can those fight be perfectly lag free with no server crash involved and sometimes server just can't handle.
We literally fought the entire D.C pop with a 14 man group between roe and fare as nothing else was happening on the map D.C side and yet the server was handling just fine

I was - it wouldn´t call it exactly lag free but in general the performance was pretty decent since mondays patch.

MLRPZ wrote: »

Lag free is anything below 200 ping in this game xD

Meeeh Marc you know that's not true.

well ping indicator in the game is rip anyway. Sometimes it says 85 yet it takes two seconds to bar swap

Docmandu wrote: »

kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@Derra
It's quite convient that none of your suggested changes have any impact on your playstyle, isn't it? I honestly dont see how changing groupsize to ~5 people would improve anything. People would just stop playing because they can't play with their friends in a largescale setting and still get ran over by a 3x 5 man ZS raid. Organisation will always overcome pugging especially with the amount of possibilities you have in this game. If they remove skills like purge and maneuver it will hurt groups ofc but what if we start just sitting in keeps spamming siege and roots on people. Fights will still be endless, nothing will change. Over time there have been so many skills that our raid was supposedly reliant on, yet when those skills got actually nerfed we were still fine, arguably even stronger because we figured out alternatives way before our enemies.

Performance is way better on Sotha Sil than it is on Vivec, so let's remove cp on all campaigns. The server cant handle CP obviously, they are the problem. Or would you disagree - perhaps because it will hurt your preferred playstyle? If so, then what if I told you that our playstyle was better since we dont need CP but yours does, effectively making you responsible for the lag? //not that I'm actually saying so, it's more about delivering a message

Of course there is a point at which you can blame players for causing issues by playing in a way that wasn't intended and the server can't handle (for example I would blame someone who is stacking 3 organised raids for lagging the server). However I honestly think it is extremely questionable that the 12-15 man groups we run is bigger than what the game was designed for, especially considering the history of the game, where for the longest time 24 man or even more was considered the standard for organised raids.
It's like if you buy a new car: If you try to drive with 300 km/h and something breaks it's your fault for pushing the limits of the car. If something breaks while you drive 120 km/h, it's the fault of the company that built the car.

I can only attribute your lack in imagination on how groupsize affects largescale pvp (mostly for the better) on you never having played any other game than ESO that supported largescale open world pvp.

I´ve personally played four titles that placed a major focus on largescale open world pvp and retrospectively it´s very clear why the titles with somewhat chaotic fights (large scale small groups) were much better than the organised (large scale large group) titles.

Maybe you´ll play CU, maybe they´ll stick to their groupsize of 6 to 10. Maybe you´ll understand what i mean then.

Otherwise you can join me in TS and i´ll explain to you why the groupsize in eso is problematic in relation to the total amount of enemies it allows you to handle.
It has nothing to do with me wanting something bad for you personally. I want to participate in everythign pvp has to offer. Largegroups deny everyone not running a large group that possibility.
Smaller groups do/would not be able to achieve that.
The key for me is possibility of participation (the lag it creates is just a bonus).

The problem with your car analogy is: Yeah you´re maybe going 120mph - but youre towing 4 orther cars while doing so - which you ofc comfortably ignore.
I´ve said many times: The problem is not your groupsize. It´s the sheer amout of players you can attract (and need to for a desireable AP/H) and not die while farming them over and over creating fight symbols attracting more players in the process.
The fights last too long. It work in a way that either you kill them shortly after the first engagement or they kill you.

There lies the most important problem on your last argument the fact that death means kinda nothing in this game. Once we kill people they just rez in our face and we can't do much about it and that's mostly why the fights are prolonged unnecesarily. Since it's impossible for us to kill the zombie horde we have to settle for surviving long enough against them. We repeatedly asked zos to add even a small 20-30 sec cd on soul gem rezing after the first rez but to no avail.

Funny people taking issues with individual soul gem rezzing, while all these ball groups do is have 1 person sneak out with streak/stealth to insta pop a forward camp and resurrect their entire AoE ball in 0.0001s

It's part of the reason why these AoE ball fights are almost endless.


Anyway they should take a look at DAoC and have something like resurrection sickness, which is a debuff you get after getting resurrected. That helps counter the combat rezzing.

Difference being: Soul Gems got no cooldown. Camps got 5 minutes. I agree they should add some sort of penalty for soul gem ressing - but with the 5 minutes cooldown oncamps - there's already a penalty.

Docmandu wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

@Derra
It's quite convient that none of your suggested changes have any impact on your playstyle, isn't it? I honestly dont see how changing groupsize to ~5 people would improve anything. People would just stop playing because they can't play with their friends in a largescale setting and still get ran over by a 3x 5 man ZS raid. Organisation will always overcome pugging especially with the amount of possibilities you have in this game. If they remove skills like purge and maneuver it will hurt groups ofc but what if we start just sitting in keeps spamming siege and roots on people. Fights will still be endless, nothing will change. Over time there have been so many skills that our raid was supposedly reliant on, yet when those skills got actually nerfed we were still fine, arguably even stronger because we figured out alternatives way before our enemies.

Performance is way better on Sotha Sil than it is on Vivec, so let's remove cp on all campaigns. The server cant handle CP obviously, they are the problem. Or would you disagree - perhaps because it will hurt your preferred playstyle? If so, then what if I told you that our playstyle was better since we dont need CP but yours does, effectively making you responsible for the lag? //not that I'm actually saying so, it's more about delivering a message

Of course there is a point at which you can blame players for causing issues by playing in a way that wasn't intended and the server can't handle (for example I would blame someone who is stacking 3 organised raids for lagging the server). However I honestly think it is extremely questionable that the 12-15 man groups we run is bigger than what the game was designed for, especially considering the history of the game, where for the longest time 24 man or even more was considered the standard for organised raids.
It's like if you buy a new car: If you try to drive with 300 km/h and something breaks it's your fault for pushing the limits of the car. If something breaks while you drive 120 km/h, it's the fault of the company that built the car.

I can only attribute your lack in imagination on how groupsize affects largescale pvp (mostly for the better) on you never having played any other game than ESO that supported largescale open world pvp.

I´ve personally played four titles that placed a major focus on largescale open world pvp and retrospectively it´s very clear why the titles with somewhat chaotic fights (large scale small groups) were much better than the organised (large scale large group) titles.

Maybe you´ll play CU, maybe they´ll stick to their groupsize of 6 to 10. Maybe you´ll understand what i mean then.

Otherwise you can join me in TS and i´ll explain to you why the groupsize in eso is problematic in relation to the total amount of enemies it allows you to handle.
It has nothing to do with me wanting something bad for you personally. I want to participate in everythign pvp has to offer. Largegroups deny everyone not running a large group that possibility.
Smaller groups do/would not be able to achieve that.
The key for me is possibility of participation (the lag it creates is just a bonus).

The problem with your car analogy is: Yeah you´re maybe going 120mph - but youre towing 4 orther cars while doing so - which you ofc comfortably ignore.
I´ve said many times: The problem is not your groupsize. It´s the sheer amout of players you can attract (and need to for a desireable AP/H) and not die while farming them over and over creating fight symbols attracting more players in the process.
The fights last too long. It work in a way that either you kill them shortly after the first engagement or they kill you.

There lies the most important problem on your last argument the fact that death means kinda nothing in this game. Once we kill people they just rez in our face and we can't do much about it and that's mostly why the fights are prolonged unnecesarily. Since it's impossible for us to kill the zombie horde we have to settle for surviving long enough against them. We repeatedly asked zos to add even a small 20-30 sec cd on soul gem rezing after the first rez but to no avail.

Funny people taking issues with individual soul gem rezzing, while all these ball groups do is have 1 person sneak out with streak/stealth to insta pop a forward camp and resurrect their entire AoE ball in 0.0001s

It's part of the reason why these AoE ball fights are almost endless.


Anyway they should take a look at DAoC and have something like resurrection sickness, which is a debuff you get after getting resurrected. That helps counter the combat rezzing.

Difference being: Soul Gems got no cooldown. Camps got 5 minutes. I agree they should add some sort of penalty for soul gem ressing - but with the 5 minutes cooldown oncamps - there's already a penalty.

So basically you're saying... nerf except the thing I'm using myself?!

Both should get the debuff imho... the camp is super strong... it's basically a 20 people insta AOE rez on a low cooldown.

No. Just saying that a camp already is "nerfed" by having a 5 minute - cooldown. Whereas Soul Gems got literally no counter-play in a large-scale whatsoever. Low cooldown - how is 5 minutes low cooldown?
And fyi - if you watched the videos - you'll see that ZS utilises soul gems quite a lot as well to ress one unlucky boi that got killed.