Explaining how scaling works and why a gear cap increase will never happen in ESO

SanTii.92 · June 2017

Scaling system isn't a reason why not to introduce a new gear cap, or better said a new stat cap. Before you dismiss me let me explain.

I think Zos just realize that their gear system is currently facing a troublesome issue. Veteran HoF hard mode was completed within hours of launch, when it was supposed to be content that lasted for months. Why? Because there was nothing new to be needed to pickup for it's completion.

Now of course we can't just add cp gear 200, or whatever and render years of farming for the current gear quite literally useless, so I think what Zos should implement is a new temper above legendary quality with the next big trial, that should be balanced around those stats.

josiahva · June 2017

The solution is to make existing gear UPGRADEABLE to CP170, CP180, etc, but that gear would still never drop above cp160. Make it take insane amounts of mats to upgrade to those next tiers...maybe years worth of material you have to collect, but make it possible to do so. There needs to be some path forward in the game, stagnation is not an answer. If I do 45k DPS now(not that I do, I mainly tank and when I do DPS, its lower than that) and that's all I will ever do...why continue to play? Aside from a marginal amount of new content to run every few months...my characters still aren't gaining in strength, so why continue to play exactly? So can repeat x version of fetch quest 1 in a new "chapter" next year? So I can capture Fort Warden for the 500th time? I think there should be a sense of your characters getting more powerful as time goes on, even if it takes years to raise them from 160 to 180 gear wise and doing so only increases your damage by 10%. Diminishing returns is fine...as long as there are still returns to be had.

FloppyTouch · June 2017

Bc finishing end game new content with ur old gold gear in a week bc there is nothing to work for is better...

No gear cap increase keeping ur old gear makes the game stale

NightbladeMechanics · June 2017

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

This makes a lot of sense.

It's also really frustrating to have to replenish builds, and this game has MASSIVE build diversity.

I know many people who would outright quit the game if the gear cap were raised.

it has a massive build diversity but very few meta viabilities for trials. the only reason the diversity can exist in four mans is because all but two have been nerfed to the point of being able to light attack your way through the content if you so chose to do it that way. we need them to expand and enrich the current game systems not throw more cp points or keep throwing the majority of content as single player tripe that does not require you to develop any build to get through it nor develop any cohesive group skills along the way.

Oh I was talking more about PvP. Build diversity can't really exist in end game PvE because of the nature of min maxing for something as binary as dps or tanking. There will always be one build that eeks out a sliver more dps than others, or blocks for a little longer before needing help healing or restoring resources. And then healers just slot the more useful utility sets for the patch.

PvP is more fluid than that, and even though there will always be meta builds defined by ease of use and accessibility by less skilled players, there will always be a ton of viable builds based around subtle play style differences.

MLGProPlayer · June 2017

josiahva wrote: »

If I do 45k DPS now(not that I do, I mainly tank and when I do DPS, its lower than that) and that's all I will ever do...why continue to play?

That's exactly how much damage you'll do at CP180, CP200, CP600, or CP1000 due to scaling. Your damage output will not change with a gear cap increase because enemy stats scale 1:1 with the gear cap.

MLGProPlayer · June 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Scaling system isn't a reason why not to introduce a new gear cap, or better said a new stat cap. Before you dismiss me let me explain.

I think Zos just realize that their gear system is currently facing a troublesome issue. Veteran HoF hard mode was completed within hours of launch, when it was supposed to be content that lasted for months. Why? Because there was nothing new to be needed to pickup for it's completion.

Now of course we can't just add cp gear 200, or whatever and render years of farming for the current gear quite literally useless, so I think what Zos should implement is a new temper above legendary quality with the next big trial, that should be balanced around those stats.

vHoF was completed within hours of release because:

1. All the top raiders were practising for a month in the closed beta
2. The CP level cap is way too high which has created power creep

Inarre · June 2017

Speaking personally, i enjoy eso and left another mmo i was playing SPECIFICALLY because there is no intense grind for end game content, and some sort of creativity and thinking involved with builds. I like that using your brain can make you more powerful than some person who can stay home all day mindlessly grinding out levels and coin.

I am one of the people who are sort of done with the classic mmo and i think increasing gear cap to artificially extend the games content is lazy when a *traditional* mmo does it, so doing the same in a game with untraditional scaling would be sort of selling out in my eyes. How exciting is it REALLY to do the same dungeons or quests over and over to get needed gear (whether thats gear itself or materials to make it) to complete new content? For me grinding has its lost its charm, and if it didnt there are tons of games out there that i can go play if i want to waste months or even years getting to end game. If zos wants to increase the challenge of this game they need to create good, new content, which hopefully is what subscribers money is going towards. I hope they realise that and that is why they have chosen to bring a new style of mmo to the table to capture that audience.

MLGProPlayer · June 2017

Xander3Zero wrote: »

With the current system, additional content could be added and the new gear sets that come with it could be useless, which to me is an issue.

Imagine a new dungeon/raid is added, but the new item sets aren't better than current item sets. I don't wanna start running/farming a new dungeon/raid that doesn't even drop better loot than old content. Or even worse, I don't want to still have to farm old content because its gear sets are still BIS for my build.

With a system that brings an increase in gear cap with new content, you will always be changing out your gear with new content, which is a major part of all MMOs.

I think level/gear scaling has tons of benefits for bringing players together, allowing different leveled players to group, and making all content "viable", but it has huge drawbacks in other areas. If you have a sharpened maelstrom weapon(s) and it is your BiS, then it will be BiS until some new content is released that happens to exceed it in power. This could take years potentially. I am a newish player, but I think vMA weapons have been BIS for most builds since vMA was launched (how long ago?). That's kinda lame if you ask me.

It takes around 500 hours on average to farm a sharpened vMA weapon (although I know a few players who needed well over 1000 hours). If you suddenly make them obsolete (for absolutely no reason, as scaling ensures), then you've just lost all the players who have spent the last 12 months grinding for this weapon.

Mondini · June 2017

Increasing gear cap is confirmed.

MLGProPlayer · June 2017

dusk194 wrote: »

I agree with the overall design of the origional post, with the exception: you don't speak for the devs and they specificly left it open ended, because they're likley not sure themselves. As for some replies.

I'm just explaining why a gear cap increase is impossible in the game's current state.

If they decide to scrap One Tamriel, then it will be possible again. That's not outside the realm of possibility, but it's extremely unlikely given the critical and commercial success of One Tamriel.

FloppyTouch · June 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Xander3Zero wrote: »

With the current system, additional content could be added and the new gear sets that come with it could be useless, which to me is an issue.

Imagine a new dungeon/raid is added, but the new item sets aren't better than current item sets. I don't wanna start running/farming a new dungeon/raid that doesn't even drop better loot than old content. Or even worse, I don't want to still have to farm old content because its gear sets are still BIS for my build.

With a system that brings an increase in gear cap with new content, you will always be changing out your gear with new content, which is a major part of all MMOs.

I think level/gear scaling has tons of benefits for bringing players together, allowing different leveled players to group, and making all content "viable", but it has huge drawbacks in other areas. If you have a sharpened maelstrom weapon(s) and it is your BiS, then it will be BiS until some new content is released that happens to exceed it in power. This could take years potentially. I am a newish player, but I think vMA weapons have been BIS for most builds since vMA was launched (how long ago?). That's kinda lame if you ask me.

It takes around 500 hours on average to farm a sharpened vMA weapon (although I know a few players who needed well over 1000 hours). If you suddenly make them obsolete (for absolutely no reason, as scaling ensures), then you've just lost all the players who have spent the last 12 months grinding for this weapon.

Bc when ever a mmo increases gear cap lvl players leave lol

They re grind new gear nothing new

MLGProPlayer · June 2017

FloppyTouch wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Xander3Zero wrote: »

With the current system, additional content could be added and the new gear sets that come with it could be useless, which to me is an issue.

Imagine a new dungeon/raid is added, but the new item sets aren't better than current item sets. I don't wanna start running/farming a new dungeon/raid that doesn't even drop better loot than old content. Or even worse, I don't want to still have to farm old content because its gear sets are still BIS for my build.

With a system that brings an increase in gear cap with new content, you will always be changing out your gear with new content, which is a major part of all MMOs.

I think level/gear scaling has tons of benefits for bringing players together, allowing different leveled players to group, and making all content "viable", but it has huge drawbacks in other areas. If you have a sharpened maelstrom weapon(s) and it is your BiS, then it will be BiS until some new content is released that happens to exceed it in power. This could take years potentially. I am a newish player, but I think vMA weapons have been BIS for most builds since vMA was launched (how long ago?). That's kinda lame if you ask me.

It takes around 500 hours on average to farm a sharpened vMA weapon (although I know a few players who needed well over 1000 hours). If you suddenly make them obsolete (for absolutely no reason, as scaling ensures), then you've just lost all the players who have spent the last 12 months grinding for this weapon.

Bc when ever a mmo increases gear cap lvl players leave lol

They re grind new gear nothing new

There is no other MMO where it takes 500-1000 hours to grind one piece of gear. That's a huge difference between ESO and other MMOs.

And as I explained, other MMOs have a need for a gear cap increase (because it unlocks new content). ESO has no need for one due to scaling.

FloppyTouch · June 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Xander3Zero wrote: »

With the current system, additional content could be added and the new gear sets that come with it could be useless, which to me is an issue.

Imagine a new dungeon/raid is added, but the new item sets aren't better than current item sets. I don't wanna start running/farming a new dungeon/raid that doesn't even drop better loot than old content. Or even worse, I don't want to still have to farm old content because its gear sets are still BIS for my build.

With a system that brings an increase in gear cap with new content, you will always be changing out your gear with new content, which is a major part of all MMOs.

I think level/gear scaling has tons of benefits for bringing players together, allowing different leveled players to group, and making all content "viable", but it has huge drawbacks in other areas. If you have a sharpened maelstrom weapon(s) and it is your BiS, then it will be BiS until some new content is released that happens to exceed it in power. This could take years potentially. I am a newish player, but I think vMA weapons have been BIS for most builds since vMA was launched (how long ago?). That's kinda lame if you ask me.

It takes around 500 hours on average to farm a sharpened vMA weapon (although I know a few players who needed well over 1000 hours). If you suddenly make them obsolete (for absolutely no reason, as scaling ensures), then you've just lost all the players who have spent the last 12 months grinding for this weapon.

Bc when ever a mmo increases gear cap lvl players leave lol

They re grind new gear nothing new

There is no other MMO where it takes 500-1000 hours to grind one piece of gear. That's a huge difference between ESO and other MMOs.

Not true at all last mmo I played to get endgame full set could take 3-4 months non stop grinding then another month or two to improve it. Game was shaiya btw

And that was with a full raid working together

Every other piece of gear in this game can take a week or two to get just the wep takes time

abigfishy · June 2017

I am so glad that people think ESO will never change the max level of gear.

Can you imagine people having to farm their VMA weapons again?

Buy their jewelry from the Golden Vendor again?

Farm zones for sharpened weapons for Necropotence set again?

SWTOR did this recently in a game which was very alt friendly. You could level from 65 to 70 in 2-3 hours and then to get the new gear the ONLY way was initially was through a 100% RNG system called Galactic Command which the Devs said would "only" take 300 hours per character. No new raids, no new dungoens but a 300 hour grind to get gear PER CHARACTER!. People always talk about unsubbing but don't do it. I had two subbed accounts and cancelled them both.

If ESO ever makes every single piece of gear I have collected, crafted, farmed, bought over months worthless then I am out.

casinoguy · June 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

A minority of vocal players have been asking for a gear cap increase for a while. In this thread I am going to explain why a gear cap increase will NEVER happen in ESO (unless ZOS abandons One Tamriel).

"But WoW keeps increasing their gear cap, why can't ESO?"

The answer is simple: WoW doesn't have scaling.

When WoW introduces a new zone, dungeon, or raid, the mobs in said instance are also a higher level than the rest of the mobs in the game. Therefore, the player needs to farm new gear in order to complete this new content.

This is how ESO worked before One Tamriel (and is also why ESO had an increasing gear cap then).

As of One Tamriel, when ESO launches new content, the mobs are automatically scaled to the same level as all other mobs in the game. You don't need new gear to complete the new content. However, raising the gear cap would mean that all old content becomes inaccessible to the player until they've farmed gear at the new gear cap. When WoW increase the gear cap, old content is still accessible, it's only new content that requires new gear. This alone makes it impossible to increase the gear cap without breaking the game for everyone.

"But I want to become stronger, and I can only become stronger with higher level gear."

This statement is also incorrect. Gear levels do not make you stronger in ESO because mobs scale to the max gear level. Therefore, if the gear cap were raised to CP180 (for example), all mobs would be scaled to CP180. This means that all your stats would be increased 1:1 with mob stats. Your DPS would be identical at CP180 to what it was at CP160. A gear cap increase in ESO is not a means of progression (which is what some people seem to think).

As you can see, a gear cap increase in ESO accomplishes nothing. It isn't needed to unlock new content, nor does it make you more powerful. The only way it could work is if ZOS abandoned One Tamriel, which I highly doubt they will do.

Very clear Point. ESO will never have a large end game population and this is one of the reasons. One Tamriel was actually a step to far in one direction and burned the bridge behind it. It was almost an NGE for ESO in some small way. though they did far better with it than Sony did with SWG. right now ZOS is a washing machine of rinse cycle repeat with its customers. one way out of this is to Layer the cp system and make new constellations with a level increase that unlock at the new max level. it's something they should have done with Morrowind. unfortunately ZOS will continue to focus on content for its single player community. and the end game will continue as it has. Guilds will rise up with new player and a middling population of returnees and die off in a cycle. Long term players be come isolationists and the churn will continue. its unfortunate because even the console players are screaming for this to be a real MMO, their largest complaint is trials and add ons lol

Endgame content has nothing to do with a gear cap (in fact, an increasing gear cap is detrimental to endgame as it forces you to grind gear instead of play the actual content). There just needs to be a constant influx of new content (which there hasn't been for a while). Although this year it seems we're getting 2 raids, which is a step in the right direction.

If you constantly add new sets maybe. Every game that has lasted more then five year follows a formula of increasing levels and increasing the alternate advancment systems. As well as adding new gear. Just adding new content does not keep the end game player interested if there is nothing new to quire but questing. Sorry but it just does not work that way?

I mean, I fail to see how gear grinding is "fun". I spent 1 hour in DS1 and I almost uninstalled the game. Yes, ESO is different than traditional MMOs, but the question is this: is the traditional advancement system in other MMOs a right call? Because, as you see, the traditional MMO genre is dying very quickly. There's a reason for it: people are realizing that gear grinding isn't fun at all, there are better ways to spend their time to enjoy games. Right now, it's the rise of competitive games, and the thing in common of all these successful games is that they all have amazing gameplay. It's a clear indication that people prefer gameplay to grinding at this point. Sure, gear grinding is still needed for an MMO, but there's a point where it's enough. The game shouldn't be just a massive and boring grind.
The question is this, should ZOS stay on a sinking boat or should they abandon it and try something new instead? In my opinion, it would be a better choice of ZOS focusing on improving the gameplay and the competitive aspect of the game, instead of the old boring grind of a dying genre.

I think your argument aligns more to the console gamer than the PC gamer as they are very different breeds. The attention span of a console gamer is quite a bit lower. I say this as a long time console player. The only PC game that I have played or still play is WoW and have for about 7 years and over 9,000 hours. I have some console games that I have over 1,000 hours played including ESO, but I could never imagine putting Wow years/hours into a one console game.

I think the real problem is that they try and put console and PC gamers in the same bucket in terms of game play and long term it doesn't really work. I think that the sacrifices made for the console players in the end hurt the PC players.

MLGProPlayer · June 2017

casinoguy wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

A minority of vocal players have been asking for a gear cap increase for a while. In this thread I am going to explain why a gear cap increase will NEVER happen in ESO (unless ZOS abandons One Tamriel).

"But WoW keeps increasing their gear cap, why can't ESO?"

The answer is simple: WoW doesn't have scaling.

When WoW introduces a new zone, dungeon, or raid, the mobs in said instance are also a higher level than the rest of the mobs in the game. Therefore, the player needs to farm new gear in order to complete this new content.

This is how ESO worked before One Tamriel (and is also why ESO had an increasing gear cap then).

As of One Tamriel, when ESO launches new content, the mobs are automatically scaled to the same level as all other mobs in the game. You don't need new gear to complete the new content. However, raising the gear cap would mean that all old content becomes inaccessible to the player until they've farmed gear at the new gear cap. When WoW increase the gear cap, old content is still accessible, it's only new content that requires new gear. This alone makes it impossible to increase the gear cap without breaking the game for everyone.

"But I want to become stronger, and I can only become stronger with higher level gear."

This statement is also incorrect. Gear levels do not make you stronger in ESO because mobs scale to the max gear level. Therefore, if the gear cap were raised to CP180 (for example), all mobs would be scaled to CP180. This means that all your stats would be increased 1:1 with mob stats. Your DPS would be identical at CP180 to what it was at CP160. A gear cap increase in ESO is not a means of progression (which is what some people seem to think).

As you can see, a gear cap increase in ESO accomplishes nothing. It isn't needed to unlock new content, nor does it make you more powerful. The only way it could work is if ZOS abandoned One Tamriel, which I highly doubt they will do.

Very clear Point. ESO will never have a large end game population and this is one of the reasons. One Tamriel was actually a step to far in one direction and burned the bridge behind it. It was almost an NGE for ESO in some small way. though they did far better with it than Sony did with SWG. right now ZOS is a washing machine of rinse cycle repeat with its customers. one way out of this is to Layer the cp system and make new constellations with a level increase that unlock at the new max level. it's something they should have done with Morrowind. unfortunately ZOS will continue to focus on content for its single player community. and the end game will continue as it has. Guilds will rise up with new player and a middling population of returnees and die off in a cycle. Long term players be come isolationists and the churn will continue. its unfortunate because even the console players are screaming for this to be a real MMO, their largest complaint is trials and add ons lol

Endgame content has nothing to do with a gear cap (in fact, an increasing gear cap is detrimental to endgame as it forces you to grind gear instead of play the actual content). There just needs to be a constant influx of new content (which there hasn't been for a while). Although this year it seems we're getting 2 raids, which is a step in the right direction.

If you constantly add new sets maybe. Every game that has lasted more then five year follows a formula of increasing levels and increasing the alternate advancment systems. As well as adding new gear. Just adding new content does not keep the end game player interested if there is nothing new to quire but questing. Sorry but it just does not work that way?

I mean, I fail to see how gear grinding is "fun". I spent 1 hour in DS1 and I almost uninstalled the game. Yes, ESO is different than traditional MMOs, but the question is this: is the traditional advancement system in other MMOs a right call? Because, as you see, the traditional MMO genre is dying very quickly. There's a reason for it: people are realizing that gear grinding isn't fun at all, there are better ways to spend their time to enjoy games. Right now, it's the rise of competitive games, and the thing in common of all these successful games is that they all have amazing gameplay. It's a clear indication that people prefer gameplay to grinding at this point. Sure, gear grinding is still needed for an MMO, but there's a point where it's enough. The game shouldn't be just a massive and boring grind.
The question is this, should ZOS stay on a sinking boat or should they abandon it and try something new instead? In my opinion, it would be a better choice of ZOS focusing on improving the gameplay and the competitive aspect of the game, instead of the old boring grind of a dying genre.

I think your argument aligns more to the console gamer than the PC gamer as they are very different breeds. The attention span of a console gamer is quite a bit lower. I say this as a long time console player. The only PC game that I have played or still play is WoW and have for about 7 years and over 9,000 hours. I have some console games that I have over 1,000 hours played including ESO, but I could never imagine putting Wow years/hours into a one console game.

I think the real problem is that they try and put console and PC gamers in the same bucket in terms of game play and long term it doesn't really work. I think that the sacrifices made for the console players in the end hurt the PC players.

It's a general trend in gaming. People want actual content, not fluff. Technology allows developers to do a lot more with games than in the past. Development costs are also lower due to advances in technology.

You can't just create a game world anymore and then artificially hold people's attention by forcing them to replay the same thing over and over again. People will replay the same thing over and over again if there is a competitive element to it. If it's just grinding for the sake of grinding, there are better ways to spend your time.

Sigtric · June 2017

All of @MLGProPlayer's reasoning in the OP + the fact they just did a lot of big changes try to combat power creep that was mostly not met well by the player base = the last thing I can see them doing is adding another tier of even more powerful gear.

NecroEnzo · June 2017

I SWEAR IF THEY INCREASE THE GEAR CAP I'LL... I'LL...

Wait, I did quit.

Wifeaggro13 · June 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

A minority of vocal players have been asking for a gear cap increase for a while. In this thread I am going to explain why a gear cap increase will NEVER happen in ESO (unless ZOS abandons One Tamriel).

"But WoW keeps increasing their gear cap, why can't ESO?"

The answer is simple: WoW doesn't have scaling.

When WoW introduces a new zone, dungeon, or raid, the mobs in said instance are also a higher level than the rest of the mobs in the game. Therefore, the player needs to farm new gear in order to complete this new content.

This is how ESO worked before One Tamriel (and is also why ESO had an increasing gear cap then).

As of One Tamriel, when ESO launches new content, the mobs are automatically scaled to the same level as all other mobs in the game. You don't need new gear to complete the new content. However, raising the gear cap would mean that all old content becomes inaccessible to the player until they've farmed gear at the new gear cap. When WoW increase the gear cap, old content is still accessible, it's only new content that requires new gear. This alone makes it impossible to increase the gear cap without breaking the game for everyone.

"But I want to become stronger, and I can only become stronger with higher level gear."

This statement is also incorrect. Gear levels do not make you stronger in ESO because mobs scale to the max gear level. Therefore, if the gear cap were raised to CP180 (for example), all mobs would be scaled to CP180. This means that all your stats would be increased 1:1 with mob stats. Your DPS would be identical at CP180 to what it was at CP160. A gear cap increase in ESO is not a means of progression (which is what some people seem to think).

As you can see, a gear cap increase in ESO accomplishes nothing. It isn't needed to unlock new content, nor does it make you more powerful. The only way it could work is if ZOS abandoned One Tamriel, which I highly doubt they will do.

Very clear Point. ESO will never have a large end game population and this is one of the reasons. One Tamriel was actually a step to far in one direction and burned the bridge behind it. It was almost an NGE for ESO in some small way. though they did far better with it than Sony did with SWG. right now ZOS is a washing machine of rinse cycle repeat with its customers. one way out of this is to Layer the cp system and make new constellations with a level increase that unlock at the new max level. it's something they should have done with Morrowind. unfortunately ZOS will continue to focus on content for its single player community. and the end game will continue as it has. Guilds will rise up with new player and a middling population of returnees and die off in a cycle. Long term players be come isolationists and the churn will continue. its unfortunate because even the console players are screaming for this to be a real MMO, their largest complaint is trials and add ons lol

Endgame content has nothing to do with a gear cap (in fact, an increasing gear cap is detrimental to endgame as it forces you to grind gear instead of play the actual content). There just needs to be a constant influx of new content (which there hasn't been for a while). Although this year it seems we're getting 2 raids, which is a step in the right direction.

If you constantly add new sets maybe. Every game that has lasted more then five year follows a formula of increasing levels and increasing the alternate advancment systems. As well as adding new gear. Just adding new content does not keep the end game player interested if there is nothing new to quire but questing. Sorry but it just does not work that way?

I mean, I fail to see how gear grinding is "fun". I spent 1 hour in DS1 and I almost uninstalled the game. Yes, ESO is different than traditional MMOs, but the question is this: is the traditional advancement system in other MMOs a right call? Because, as you see, the traditional MMO genre is dying very quickly. There's a reason for it: people are realizing that gear grinding isn't fun at all, there are better ways to spend their time to enjoy games. Right now, it's the rise of competitive games, and the thing in common of all these successful games is that they all have amazing gameplay. It's a clear indication that people prefer gameplay to grinding at this point. Sure, gear grinding is still needed for an MMO, but there's a point where it's enough. The game shouldn't be just a massive and boring grind.
The question is this, should ZOS stay on a sinking boat or should they abandon it and try something new instead? In my opinion, it would be a better choice of ZOS focusing on improving the gameplay and the competitive aspect of the game, instead of the old boring grind of a dying genre.

I dont find ESO gameplay amazing though. aquiring rewards from challenging content is far different from grinding i never once asked for a gear grind which eso already has in form of its trait system. and for game play there really is none because you canlight attack your way naked to lvl 50 if you so chose too. there are games that have good game play. and i dont think the traditional mmo is dying at all. some of these games are still going strong 12 years post launch.

ESO gameplay isn't amazing, but at least it's action based so it's better than WoW and most of the point-and-click MMOs in my opinion. Plus, that's also why I said ZOS should focus on improving the gameplay.

You know that traditional MMO dying is a fact and is backed up with numbers, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8t4h53k29s

it must be dying , because that English accent youtuber says Google trends are down . ZOS sold 1.6 million copies of this game at launch, more then any MMO title to ever sell on its launch day. the intrest is there . Its not dying enough that Zenimax online was willing to borrow 300 million dollars on top of the Bethesda capital to start ZOS specifically to make ESO and a potential Fallout MMO. there is no doubt MOBA's are attracting large numbers of gamers i do agree. MMO's are not going anywhere most of the Genres godfathers and development teams are shying away from those big corporate dollars to work on indie projects because they get screwed out of their own creations.

The reason that ESO is doing well for an MMO is that ESO is an unique experience compared to other MMOs, in the sense that it is not a traditional MMORPG. The game doesn't follow the traditional progression system that you suggested. This is the exact reason why I said ESO shouldn't follow the same old MMO formula, traditional MMOs are dying because of it, people are realizing that gear grinding isn't fun at all, there are better ways to spend their time to enjoy games. The game shouldn't be just a massive and boring grind, people just don't enjoy a grindfest anymore, this isn't 2004.

Apart from ESO, if you look at the numbers, WoW's sub number is declining rapidly, traditional grindfest MMOs are dying like flies. About indie MMOs, if they want to be successful, they have to be unique, they have to try out new creative things, if they keep the same old grindfest formula, they will die like all the traditional MMOs are dying.

ESO is doing well because of the damn cash shop and you know it. it has huge population of people that dont even play the game dont give me that garbage. It sold tons of copies and has a bunch of revenue from its crown store feeding of the barbie doll community If you look at its rention it did horribly in a 18 month windo from launch, the only thing that help it was console sales. And you keep going on and on about gear grinds Jesus dude they exist right here in its trait system people grind one solo instance for VMA weapons for a specific trait and the fact that you don't see ESO for what it is in its end game just lets me know your not playing the whole game. the gear grind is no different here than it is in any other MMO. ESO 's retention from Launch was horrible and they keep redesigning the game to better fit the crown store and the player base that uses it. the that plays the game like its candy crush. quit trying to paint this game as the MMO messiah its just not. Its business model is predatory and had they not written their TOS the way it is there would have been legal consequences for what they did with Morrowind. ESO is not a unique experience its just like every other MMO just far more shallow. the old ones are dying because they are old they were designned for a 10 year life cycle and they far exceeded it.

Lol dude. As I have explained above, ESO is unique in the sense that it is not a traditional MMORPG, the game doesn't follow the traditional progression system in other MMOs that you suggested. You see, gear grinding is already bad, so why on Earth do you want them to raise gear cap to make it even worse? It did horribly at launch because most of the feedbacks told ZOS that the game was just a generic WoW clone, not "Elder Scrolls-ish" enough, and feedbacks were pretty clear that players didn't want another WoW clone. So they changed things. They added the Justice System, they added more content like Craglorn, Orsinium, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, and guess what, they added One Tamriel which is basically Skyrim's progression system. Take a look at the numbers from Steam chart: http://steamcharts.com/app/306130
October 2016, the game tripled the number of avg. players, from 3k to 9k. That's just steam, a small part of PC playerbase, it doesn't even count the new players from Bethesda launcher, PS4 and Xbox one. You see it now? People want something unique, something new, no one wants to play another WoW clone.
The old ones are dying because they are old, so where are all the new and successful ones with the same progression system? If traditional MMO is doing sooooo well, there would be a tons of successful new titles, so where are they? There are so few new MMOs released, and as time flies, new projects are less grand and less impressive. Number talks, as you see, the decline of traditional MMOs is a fact and is backed up by actual numbers. No one cares if you think traditional MMO is not dying, because all the numbers suggest that in fact it is dying.

If new MMOs want to be successful, they have to be unique, they have to try out new creative things, if they keep the same old grindfest formula (raising gearcap each expansion), they will die like all the traditional MMOs are dying.

I hate WOW i dont want a WOW clone but i do want actual group content . but with that said there afar more people playing WOW right now then ESO. ESO does not have the active player base you think it does. im glad you like them game. I do not anymore, i did at one point. The justice system is half baked. TG and DB were a scam those were supposed to guilds they added for free shortly after craglorn. Orssinium was decent single player addition and the delve was enjoyable. Craglorn was redone not because it sucked but because people had no reason to do it anymore, when it launched it was packed i mean packed , for months it was the hub of the game. i may be harsh on ESO true. but this game isnot the MMO messiah you think it is it does not have the player base you think it does and out of flushing my firends list three time and joing 20 different guilds not one person i played with at launch plays this game anymore, not one person i played this game with in 2015 plays anymore. the game is a constant churn player base and every 6 to 9 months it flushes. MMO's period are not being made much anymore and his to do with the economics of them and the people who know how to make good ones wont work for corporate america anymore thats just the facts.

Your point yesterday: ESO is doing well.
Your point today: ESO is not doing well.

Make up your mind, bro.

Btw it has nothing to do with my point. Traditional MMOs are dying and you can't deny that.

Eso is making money of the cash shop. The end game community is a vapid wasteland . Eso has found their cow and are milking it. There are traditional MMos in development right now . Pretty sure you wont be any where near this game or the forums in six months anyway

Inarre · June 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Xander3Zero wrote: »

With the current system, additional content could be added and the new gear sets that come with it could be useless, which to me is an issue.

Imagine a new dungeon/raid is added, but the new item sets aren't better than current item sets. I don't wanna start running/farming a new dungeon/raid that doesn't even drop better loot than old content. Or even worse, I don't want to still have to farm old content because its gear sets are still BIS for my build.

With a system that brings an increase in gear cap with new content, you will always be changing out your gear with new content, which is a major part of all MMOs.

I think level/gear scaling has tons of benefits for bringing players together, allowing different leveled players to group, and making all content "viable", but it has huge drawbacks in other areas. If you have a sharpened maelstrom weapon(s) and it is your BiS, then it will be BiS until some new content is released that happens to exceed it in power. This could take years potentially. I am a newish player, but I think vMA weapons have been BIS for most builds since vMA was launched (how long ago?). That's kinda lame if you ask me.

It takes around 500 hours on average to farm a sharpened vMA weapon (although I know a few players who needed well over 1000 hours). If you suddenly make them obsolete (for absolutely no reason, as scaling ensures), then you've just lost all the players who have spent the last 12 months grinding for this weapon.

Bc when ever a mmo increases gear cap lvl players leave lol

They re grind new gear nothing new

There is no other MMO where it takes 500-1000 hours to grind one piece of gear. That's a huge difference between ESO and other MMOs.

And as I explained, other MMOs have a need for a gear cap increase (because it unlocks new content). ESO has no need for one due to scaling.

I hate to say you are wrong (about no other game existing that takes that long to farm gear)

not that i am saying this is a good thing to have. Grind sucks, just that eso is not unique in grind or even the worst offender. Rng is a cruel mistress.

MLGProPlayer · June 2017

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

A minority of vocal players have been asking for a gear cap increase for a while. In this thread I am going to explain why a gear cap increase will NEVER happen in ESO (unless ZOS abandons One Tamriel).

"But WoW keeps increasing their gear cap, why can't ESO?"

The answer is simple: WoW doesn't have scaling.

When WoW introduces a new zone, dungeon, or raid, the mobs in said instance are also a higher level than the rest of the mobs in the game. Therefore, the player needs to farm new gear in order to complete this new content.

This is how ESO worked before One Tamriel (and is also why ESO had an increasing gear cap then).

As of One Tamriel, when ESO launches new content, the mobs are automatically scaled to the same level as all other mobs in the game. You don't need new gear to complete the new content. However, raising the gear cap would mean that all old content becomes inaccessible to the player until they've farmed gear at the new gear cap. When WoW increase the gear cap, old content is still accessible, it's only new content that requires new gear. This alone makes it impossible to increase the gear cap without breaking the game for everyone.

"But I want to become stronger, and I can only become stronger with higher level gear."

This statement is also incorrect. Gear levels do not make you stronger in ESO because mobs scale to the max gear level. Therefore, if the gear cap were raised to CP180 (for example), all mobs would be scaled to CP180. This means that all your stats would be increased 1:1 with mob stats. Your DPS would be identical at CP180 to what it was at CP160. A gear cap increase in ESO is not a means of progression (which is what some people seem to think).

As you can see, a gear cap increase in ESO accomplishes nothing. It isn't needed to unlock new content, nor does it make you more powerful. The only way it could work is if ZOS abandoned One Tamriel, which I highly doubt they will do.

Very clear Point. ESO will never have a large end game population and this is one of the reasons. One Tamriel was actually a step to far in one direction and burned the bridge behind it. It was almost an NGE for ESO in some small way. though they did far better with it than Sony did with SWG. right now ZOS is a washing machine of rinse cycle repeat with its customers. one way out of this is to Layer the cp system and make new constellations with a level increase that unlock at the new max level. it's something they should have done with Morrowind. unfortunately ZOS will continue to focus on content for its single player community. and the end game will continue as it has. Guilds will rise up with new player and a middling population of returnees and die off in a cycle. Long term players be come isolationists and the churn will continue. its unfortunate because even the console players are screaming for this to be a real MMO, their largest complaint is trials and add ons lol

Endgame content has nothing to do with a gear cap (in fact, an increasing gear cap is detrimental to endgame as it forces you to grind gear instead of play the actual content). There just needs to be a constant influx of new content (which there hasn't been for a while). Although this year it seems we're getting 2 raids, which is a step in the right direction.

If you constantly add new sets maybe. Every game that has lasted more then five year follows a formula of increasing levels and increasing the alternate advancment systems. As well as adding new gear. Just adding new content does not keep the end game player interested if there is nothing new to quire but questing. Sorry but it just does not work that way?

I mean, I fail to see how gear grinding is "fun". I spent 1 hour in DS1 and I almost uninstalled the game. Yes, ESO is different than traditional MMOs, but the question is this: is the traditional advancement system in other MMOs a right call? Because, as you see, the traditional MMO genre is dying very quickly. There's a reason for it: people are realizing that gear grinding isn't fun at all, there are better ways to spend their time to enjoy games. Right now, it's the rise of competitive games, and the thing in common of all these successful games is that they all have amazing gameplay. It's a clear indication that people prefer gameplay to grinding at this point. Sure, gear grinding is still needed for an MMO, but there's a point where it's enough. The game shouldn't be just a massive and boring grind.
The question is this, should ZOS stay on a sinking boat or should they abandon it and try something new instead? In my opinion, it would be a better choice of ZOS focusing on improving the gameplay and the competitive aspect of the game, instead of the old boring grind of a dying genre.

I dont find ESO gameplay amazing though. aquiring rewards from challenging content is far different from grinding i never once asked for a gear grind which eso already has in form of its trait system. and for game play there really is none because you canlight attack your way naked to lvl 50 if you so chose too. there are games that have good game play. and i dont think the traditional mmo is dying at all. some of these games are still going strong 12 years post launch.

ESO gameplay isn't amazing, but at least it's action based so it's better than WoW and most of the point-and-click MMOs in my opinion. Plus, that's also why I said ZOS should focus on improving the gameplay.

You know that traditional MMO dying is a fact and is backed up with numbers, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8t4h53k29s

it must be dying , because that English accent youtuber says Google trends are down . ZOS sold 1.6 million copies of this game at launch, more then any MMO title to ever sell on its launch day. the intrest is there . Its not dying enough that Zenimax online was willing to borrow 300 million dollars on top of the Bethesda capital to start ZOS specifically to make ESO and a potential Fallout MMO. there is no doubt MOBA's are attracting large numbers of gamers i do agree. MMO's are not going anywhere most of the Genres godfathers and development teams are shying away from those big corporate dollars to work on indie projects because they get screwed out of their own creations.

The reason that ESO is doing well for an MMO is that ESO is an unique experience compared to other MMOs, in the sense that it is not a traditional MMORPG. The game doesn't follow the traditional progression system that you suggested. This is the exact reason why I said ESO shouldn't follow the same old MMO formula, traditional MMOs are dying because of it, people are realizing that gear grinding isn't fun at all, there are better ways to spend their time to enjoy games. The game shouldn't be just a massive and boring grind, people just don't enjoy a grindfest anymore, this isn't 2004.

Apart from ESO, if you look at the numbers, WoW's sub number is declining rapidly, traditional grindfest MMOs are dying like flies. About indie MMOs, if they want to be successful, they have to be unique, they have to try out new creative things, if they keep the same old grindfest formula, they will die like all the traditional MMOs are dying.

ESO is doing well because of the damn cash shop and you know it. it has huge population of people that dont even play the game dont give me that garbage. It sold tons of copies and has a bunch of revenue from its crown store feeding of the barbie doll community If you look at its rention it did horribly in a 18 month windo from launch, the only thing that help it was console sales. And you keep going on and on about gear grinds Jesus dude they exist right here in its trait system people grind one solo instance for VMA weapons for a specific trait and the fact that you don't see ESO for what it is in its end game just lets me know your not playing the whole game. the gear grind is no different here than it is in any other MMO. ESO 's retention from Launch was horrible and they keep redesigning the game to better fit the crown store and the player base that uses it. the that plays the game like its candy crush. quit trying to paint this game as the MMO messiah its just not. Its business model is predatory and had they not written their TOS the way it is there would have been legal consequences for what they did with Morrowind. ESO is not a unique experience its just like every other MMO just far more shallow. the old ones are dying because they are old they were designned for a 10 year life cycle and they far exceeded it.

Lol dude. As I have explained above, ESO is unique in the sense that it is not a traditional MMORPG, the game doesn't follow the traditional progression system in other MMOs that you suggested. You see, gear grinding is already bad, so why on Earth do you want them to raise gear cap to make it even worse? It did horribly at launch because most of the feedbacks told ZOS that the game was just a generic WoW clone, not "Elder Scrolls-ish" enough, and feedbacks were pretty clear that players didn't want another WoW clone. So they changed things. They added the Justice System, they added more content like Craglorn, Orsinium, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, and guess what, they added One Tamriel which is basically Skyrim's progression system. Take a look at the numbers from Steam chart: http://steamcharts.com/app/306130
October 2016, the game tripled the number of avg. players, from 3k to 9k. That's just steam, a small part of PC playerbase, it doesn't even count the new players from Bethesda launcher, PS4 and Xbox one. You see it now? People want something unique, something new, no one wants to play another WoW clone.
The old ones are dying because they are old, so where are all the new and successful ones with the same progression system? If traditional MMO is doing sooooo well, there would be a tons of successful new titles, so where are they? There are so few new MMOs released, and as time flies, new projects are less grand and less impressive. Number talks, as you see, the decline of traditional MMOs is a fact and is backed up by actual numbers. No one cares if you think traditional MMO is not dying, because all the numbers suggest that in fact it is dying.

If new MMOs want to be successful, they have to be unique, they have to try out new creative things, if they keep the same old grindfest formula (raising gearcap each expansion), they will die like all the traditional MMOs are dying.

I hate WOW i dont want a WOW clone but i do want actual group content . but with that said there afar more people playing WOW right now then ESO. ESO does not have the active player base you think it does. im glad you like them game. I do not anymore, i did at one point. The justice system is half baked. TG and DB were a scam those were supposed to guilds they added for free shortly after craglorn. Orssinium was decent single player addition and the delve was enjoyable. Craglorn was redone not because it sucked but because people had no reason to do it anymore, when it launched it was packed i mean packed , for months it was the hub of the game. i may be harsh on ESO true. but this game isnot the MMO messiah you think it is it does not have the player base you think it does and out of flushing my firends list three time and joing 20 different guilds not one person i played with at launch plays this game anymore, not one person i played this game with in 2015 plays anymore. the game is a constant churn player base and every 6 to 9 months it flushes. MMO's period are not being made much anymore and his to do with the economics of them and the people who know how to make good ones wont work for corporate america anymore thats just the facts.

Your point yesterday: ESO is doing well.
Your point today: ESO is not doing well.

Make up your mind, bro.

Btw it has nothing to do with my point. Traditional MMOs are dying and you can't deny that.

Eso is making money of the cash shop. The end game community is a vapid wasteland . Eso has found their cow and are milking it. There are traditional MMos in development right now . Pretty sure you wont be any where near this game or the forums in six months anyway

There really aren't any big budget MMOs in development at the moment. Just a bunch of kickstarter projects and niche titles. None of them have widespread appeal.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

So, what's your thought on them removing the gear level caps.

MLGProPlayer · June 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

So, what's your thought on them removing the gear level caps.

It would make sense to get rid of the cap altogether. But there is already barely a cap. Getting to CP160 only takes a few hours (if you grind). It's not the end of the world if they keep it as is.

Avran_Sylt · June 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

So, what's your thought on them removing the gear level caps.

It would make sense to get rid of the cap altogether. But there is already barely a cap. Getting to CP160 only takes a few hours (if you grind). It's not the end of the world if they keep it as is.

True, for the hardcore gamer. But a casual gamer (the likely target audience (or at least the largest audience)), will likely have a much longer time between level one and first CP160.

SanTii.92 · June 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Scaling system isn't a reason why not to introduce a new gear cap, or better said a new stat cap. Before you dismiss me let me explain.

I think Zos just realize that their gear system is currently facing a troublesome issue. Veteran HoF hard mode was completed within hours of launch, when it was supposed to be content that lasted for months. Why? Because there was nothing new to be needed to pickup for it's completion.

Now of course we can't just add cp gear 200, or whatever and render years of farming for the current gear quite literally useless, so I think what Zos should implement is a new temper above legendary quality with the next big trial, that should be balanced around those stats.

vHoF was completed within hours of release because:

1. All the top raiders were practising for a month in the closed beta
2. The CP level cap is way too high which has created power creep

Yes, which couldn't have been possible with my solution.

Vargrim · June 2017

I've spent hunderds of hours farming for VMA weapons etc, if they just told me all that is useless one day I'd rather quit the game than farm it again lol, all that time wasted? no thank you ...

Taleof2Cities · June 2017

You make a lot of excellent points, @MLGProPlayer.

But, I think ZOS will raise the cap eventually at some point.

Exactly when that is remains to be seen ... but it could be as soon as the new Trial release in Q4.

In their statement about not raising the cap for Morrowind, ZOS didn't say they would never raise the gear cap in the future ... so it seems like an open door to me.

I don't altogether agree that the gear cap is intimately tied to OneTamriel. The purpose of OneTamriel is to go where ever you want with whomever you want. The CP cap could be anything from CP10 to CP3600 ... but you and your friends are still scaled with your new CP180 gear.

Finally, it's been over a year since the new CP180 mats were datamined. I'm sure ZOS is itching to use those.

So, we can hope that ZOS is reading these comments ... I'm in the same boat as the next player in not liking to farm new gear.

alexkdd99 · June 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

NiclasFridholm wrote: »

They already stated it will happen this year...

No they didn't. They said they will let us know when (and if) an increase was coming.

As I explained, it's impossible to raise the gear cap without getting rid of One Tamriel, so I don't imagine we'll be getting a gear cap increase any time soon, if ever.

No. They said it will happen. They didn't state when our even if it will be this year. Just that they will be mindful of people's time investment.

Unless you are a zos employee or have some secret knowledge this is all just your opinion. You don't know whether it will or won't. We do know they said they would be mindful of our investment in the game when they do a gear cap increase.

Also where do you come up with that only a minority want this? More opinion?

MLGProPlayer · June 2017

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

You make a lot of excellent points, @MLGProPlayer.

But, I think ZOS will raise the cap eventually at some point.

Exactly when that is remains to be seen ... but it could be as soon as the new Trial release in Q4.

In their statement about not raising the cap for Morrowind, ZOS didn't say they would never raise the gear cap in the future ... so it seems like an open door to me.

I don't altogether agree that the gear cap is intimately tied to OneTamriel. The purpose of OneTamriel is to go where ever you want with whomever you want. The CP cap could be anything from CP10 to CP3600 ... but you and your friends are still scaled with your new CP180 gear.

Finally, it's been over a year since the new CP180 mats were datamined. I'm sure ZOS is itching to use those.

So, we can hope that ZOS is reading these comments ... I'm in the same boat as the next player in not liking to farm new gear.

Before One Tamriel, ZOS would release a new zone/trial which would be at the new level. For example, Clockwork City might be a CP180 zone. Therefore, you would need to farm CP180 gear to complete it.

Now, the entire game is scaled to a single level. This makes any increase to the gear cap obsolete as your stats don't change with new gear (you do the exact same damage you did at CP160). Instead, you are just made weaker and forced to re-grind the same gear you already have. You can't even compete for leader boards on old trials until you've farmed the new gear because everything is scaled to the new gear cap (old and new content).

Those mats were datamined from before OT, when the gear cap was raised regularly (because the game didn't have scaling).

MLGProPlayer · June 2017

alexkdd99 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

NiclasFridholm wrote: »

They already stated it will happen this year...

No they didn't. They said they will let us know when (and if) an increase was coming.

As I explained, it's impossible to raise the gear cap without getting rid of One Tamriel, so I don't imagine we'll be getting a gear cap increase any time soon, if ever.

No. They said it will happen. They didn't state when our even if it will be this year. Just that they will be mindful of people's time investment.

Unless you are a zos employee or have some secret knowledge this is all just your opinion. You don't know whether it will or won't. We do know they said they would be mindful of our investment in the game when they do a gear cap increase.

Also where do you come up with that only a minority want this? More opinion?

I'm stating facts. A gear cap increase is impossible with One Tamriel. No opinion there. Sure it's possible that they get rid of One Tamriel and implement a gear treadmill, but it's unlikely given the success of OT.

And create a poll if you'd like. I'd be willing to bet all my gold in this game that the majority of players, casual and hardcore, don't want a gear treadmill.