Lexxypwns wrote: »

You should always find a way to get your sustain without serpent/atro

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

I dont get the hype at all.

No CP battlegrounds are 10-30% crit, and 50% crit damage. And proc sets don't crit. Reinforced is already a decent choice without impreg.

Actually no CP battlegrounds are about 40% crit on proper builds. 10% base + (7.5-10.5% for 5-7 medium OR 10% for 5+ light) + 10% Major Savagery/Prophecy + 11% Thief.

You should always always always use the Thief in non CP if your build aims to kill people.

There are very few exceptions, and every one gives up lethality for something else.

SASQUATCH0 wrote: »

Been trying to find sturdy heavy chest and 2 shields but they are no where to be found lol. Really want to try this build!

ManDraKE wrote: »

SASQUATCH0 wrote: »

Been trying to find sturdy heavy chest and 2 shields but they are no where to be found lol. Really want to try this build!

use reinforced on big parts and sturdy on the small ones. Big parts with reinforced golded, give a ton *** of resistances, specially on the shield.

AAbrigo wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

SASQUATCH0 wrote: »

Been trying to find sturdy heavy chest and 2 shields but they are no where to be found lol. Really want to try this build!

use reinforced on big parts and sturdy on the small ones. Big parts with reinforced golded, give a ton *** of resistances, specially on the shield.

If you're at 15k resistance, impen prevents more DMG than reinforced just fyi.

Well it depends on how much impen you got?

Isnt it better to have reinforced if you only have 15k resistance and about 3500 crit resist. Only talking about no-cp and bgs

Waffennacht wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

SASQUATCH0 wrote: »

Been trying to find sturdy heavy chest and 2 shields but they are no where to be found lol. Really want to try this build!

use reinforced on big parts and sturdy on the small ones. Big parts with reinforced golded, give a ton *** of resistances, specially on the shield.

If you're at 15k resistance, impen prevents more DMG than reinforced just fyi.

Minalan wrote: »

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

Yea with some CPs, transmute, and impreg Im running 7k impen and critical strikes hit me less then non criticals

That's impossible, the highest critical damage mitigation you can do is zero, meaning every critical hit does normal damage (no bonus). Not less.

Derra wrote: »

I´d use it - but since staff builds don´t get to run 5 5 2 i can´t.

Come dual wield with me @Derra. You know you want to!

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

I dont get the hype at all.

No CP battlegrounds are 10-30% crit, and 50% crit damage. And proc sets don't crit. Reinforced is already a decent choice without impreg.

Actually no CP battlegrounds are about 40% crit on proper builds. 10% base + (7.5-10.5% for 5-7 medium OR 10% for 5+ light) + 10% Major Savagery/Prophecy + 11% Thief.

You should always always always use the Thief in non CP if your build aims to kill people.

There are very few exceptions, and every one gives up lethality for something else.

@NightbladeMechanics

Hmmm. You are technically right i guess. As you often are But what you line up there, is less than 5-10% of the BG population, IMO / based on my observations. Half are in Heavy Armor and/or not using Thief, and/or not getting Major Propechy. But i guess you are right, in the sense that you can't build for fighting potatoes and still expect to win against someone seasoned on a good build.

But always always always Thief? My Procstacking (RM+WayOfFire), Healthregen (Tollking, Steed, Jewelry - HA/Orc etc.) Stamsorc has 0 use of any kind of crit. No heals to benefit, no damage to benefit. But i guess that is bordering to exploit anyway, so i get why that might be an outlier here.

For Thief in general, i am aware it is the most Effective Mundus (not counting Shadow as that has no Set Item equivalent), in terms of providing X amount of equivalent set bonuses. And in terms of providing raw DPS when parsed out. But does that actually also hold true, when taking into account that everybody and their mother is running around with at least 2000 Impen? When Crit damage is cut down to 20%, the added DPS of 11% Crit is down to what - 2,2% ? I think that one might be able to find more damage, from a 5 pcs. Set or Monster set, which could be chosen over a regen set, when choosing for example Atro mundus? I would think (have no idea) that 400 Spell/Wep Damage from some 5 pcs. would give more than 2,2% increase, for most builds?

Your build has two procs. They may deal a lot of damage, but they won't kill good players alone. It sounds like a flurry dot stam sorc? Your dots will be applying a ton of pressure too, and crit is important to their damage. I bet you also have to heavy attack a lot to sustain in that setup. Don't discredit all of that nonproc damage.

And I said that some builds will trade lethality for other stats by using other munduses. In your case, you trade lethality for health regen and movement speed. Do you think either is critical to your survival?

Yes this holds true with impen in the picture as long as you're running a burst build. You still have to crit someone to kill them the majority of the time, so it follows that the tankier they are, the harder or more often you have to crit them. 2k crit resistance reduces enemy crit damage by 29.4%. Run the Shadow, and you gain 12% of that back. This means you go from hitting a 20k crit frag down to 16k, then back up to 17.6k. That 1600 damage increase is still more than any 5pc damage set will give you.

Except for Archer's Mind and procs

Run Thief, and you hit the 16k crit frag instead of the 13.3k noncrit more often. That's a 2.7k damage increase when you crit.

To understand crit's place in PvP, you need to stop thinking about dps parses. We are talking about very fast 2-4 ability burst combos here. The idea is to get as many of those hits to crit, and to get them to crit as hard as possible in order to kill the target within a few global cooldowns. Even with proc sets in the mix, your other damage sources are a greater percentage of your overall damage throughout a fight, and having that juicy incap, dizzying swing, leap, frag, or dawnbreaker crit makes or breaks combos all the time.

^^^

All of the above is how my theory has gone until Impregnable was introduced. If a person is stacking that + 7 or 8 impen in non cp, you won't crit them for anything... In that case, you're better off trying to outsustain them. That hasn't become meta yet, but I did predict long ago that it would. Proc sets and sustain is the way to go against impreg builds, but crit is still necessary against non-impreg builds.

Atro/serpent alone is insufficient sustain. It's more stat efficient in general to get your sustain from armor and a drink, then from glyphs or your mundus only if you absolutely have to.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

I dont get the hype at all.

No CP battlegrounds are 10-30% crit, and 50% crit damage. And proc sets don't crit. Reinforced is already a decent choice without impreg.

Actually no CP battlegrounds are about 40% crit on proper builds. 10% base + (7.5-10.5% for 5-7 medium OR 10% for 5+ light) + 10% Major Savagery/Prophecy + 11% Thief.

You should always always always use the Thief in non CP if your build aims to kill people.

There are very few exceptions, and every one gives up lethality for something else.

@NightbladeMechanics

Hmmm. You are technically right i guess. As you often are But what you line up there, is less than 5-10% of the BG population, IMO / based on my observations. Half are in Heavy Armor and/or not using Thief, and/or not getting Major Propechy. But i guess you are right, in the sense that you can't build for fighting potatoes and still expect to win against someone seasoned on a good build.

But always always always Thief? My Procstacking (RM+WayOfFire), Healthregen (Tollking, Steed, Jewelry - HA/Orc etc.) Stamsorc has 0 use of any kind of crit. No heals to benefit, no damage to benefit. But i guess that is bordering to exploit anyway, so i get why that might be an outlier here.

For Thief in general, i am aware it is the most Effective Mundus (not counting Shadow as that has no Set Item equivalent), in terms of providing X amount of equivalent set bonuses. And in terms of providing raw DPS when parsed out. But does that actually also hold true, when taking into account that everybody and their mother is running around with at least 2000 Impen? When Crit damage is cut down to 20%, the added DPS of 11% Crit is down to what - 2,2% ? I think that one might be able to find more damage, from a 5 pcs. Set or Monster set, which could be chosen over a regen set, when choosing for example Atro mundus? I would think (have no idea) that 400 Spell/Wep Damage from some 5 pcs. would give more than 2,2% increase, for most builds?

Your build has two procs. They may deal a lot of damage, but they won't kill good players alone. It sounds like a flurry dot stam sorc? Your dots will be applying a ton of pressure too, and crit is important to their damage. I bet you also have to heavy attack a lot to sustain in that setup. Don't discredit all of that nonproc damage.

And I said that some builds will trade lethality for other stats by using other munduses. In your case, you trade lethality for health regen and movement speed. Do you think either is critical to your survival?

Yes this holds true with impen in the picture as long as you're running a burst build. You still have to crit someone to kill them the majority of the time, so it follows that the tankier they are, the harder or more often you have to crit them. 2k crit resistance reduces enemy crit damage by 29.4%. Run the Shadow, and you gain 12% of that back. This means you go from hitting a 20k crit frag down to 16k, then back up to 17.6k. That 1600 damage increase is still more than any 5pc damage set will give you.

Except for Archer's Mind and procs

Run Thief, and you hit the 16k crit frag instead of the 13.3k noncrit more often. That's a 2.7k damage increase when you crit.

To understand crit's place in PvP, you need to stop thinking about dps parses. We are talking about very fast 2-4 ability burst combos here. The idea is to get as many of those hits to crit, and to get them to crit as hard as possible in order to kill the target within a few global cooldowns. Even with proc sets in the mix, your other damage sources are a greater percentage of your overall damage throughout a fight, and having that juicy incap, dizzying swing, leap, frag, or dawnbreaker crit makes or breaks combos all the time.

^^^

All of the above is how my theory has gone until Impregnable was introduced. If a person is stacking that + 7 or 8 impen in non cp, you won't crit them for anything... In that case, you're better off trying to outsustain them. That hasn't become meta yet, but I did predict long ago that it would. Proc sets and sustain is the way to go against impreg builds, but crit is still necessary against non-impreg builds.

Atro/serpent alone is insufficient sustain. It's more stat efficient in general to get your sustain from armor and a drink, then from glyphs or your mundus only if you absolutely have to.

That's the problem with every mundus that isn't thief or shadow, they offer an inadequate amount of what you're getting. Based off the assumption that every aggressive Pvp build should have their major crit buff included in their builds and adding the 12% from CP that every CP build will have, adding thief is all the crit you need, since adding more at that point will put you in that 50%+ area where you start to get less burst benefit as opposed to adding other damage. For light/medium builds shadow is more effective.

I think if you can effectively sustain with viper+widow and you're using 2x knife of shadows, the named viper daggers, that thief pulls ahead of shadow again for Pvp. You'd need some sort of Stam support to sustain that though.

Builds stacking tons of crit can get shut down by impregnable now though or give you an adequate amount of crit resist(tons if someone else is running trans) and allow you to increase sustain, resists, or damage. You're right, the only way to beat these kinds of tanks is going to be wear them down. Stacking impregnable and reactive with troll king tho...