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Animation Cancelling (Possible Fix?)
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talon_vib14_ESO✭✭✭Making the skills cooldowns match the animations sounds like a good plan. You should still be able to rolldodge or block mid cast but rather than simply cancelling the animation it would also cancel the skill and damage. This is also assuming that dmg from a skill would be applied at the end of the animation rather than the beginning. Anyway not sure how to fix it and honestly they aren't going to.1 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »There is already a 1 second cool down for all skills regardless of whether the animation is cancelled. Are you suggesting it should be longer?
I would say the same just a week ago. But it's probably not about attack weaving.
A couple of days ago I saw something interesting. And I believe that's what all the topics about animation cancelling are about. So I was playing PVP and I this guy swung his sword ONCE and I died. I was running keeping Healing ward and heals up + with major armor buff, so instead of just rezzing as usual, I went to the death recap. What I saw there is 2 procs (which is whatever -a whole different subject of imbalance) AND THREE ATTACKS - Dizzying swing, heavy attack, and I think a surprise attack, I forgot now, from that one guy.
And mind you, inb4 l2p, I've been playing for a while. And I know how weave attacks and I've been doing that for years. I'm pretty confident I can tell attack weaving from ONE SWING.Just a heads up to all the anti-animation cancelling people.
The moment you start talking about ani-cancelled Wrecking Blows you loose all possible credibility. You do not even understand how it works but try to argue why it should be removed.
Please explain why what I described above is possible or should be possible.Drummerx04 wrote: »ThePaleItalian wrote: »If animation cancelling wasn't in the game, how much harder would trials and VMA be? I never get an answer to this.
You never get an answer because it is very difficult to speculate. Currently, there is a series of global cooldowns that are interconnected and set each other off, so it's not like the question is simply "what is the expected dps loss if animation cancelling is removed?"
With AC, I can freely cast a skill and then DODGE incoming damage with a roll, or block. If animation cancelling were removed, I guess I couldn't block or dodge until the animation is done... Basically, vMA/trials would take longer and the combat would FEEL slow and clunky, even to everyone who goes out of their way to avoid AC.
I can pretty much guarantee that most of the community complaining about AC actually does it without knowing. For example: spam dark flare button once per second. Congrats, you just animation cancelled.
And for those saying AC is unfair because not everyone is physically able to do it... that's like saying the NBA is unfair because they have physical requirements.
Yeah I would say something like that just a week ago. And indeed, it makes pve more dynamic and fun and smooth. And there's no problem in PvE, imo. However, see above.0 -
BigBragg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »There is already a 1 second cool down for all skills regardless of whether the animation is cancelled. Are you suggesting it should be longer?
I would say the same just a week ago. But it's probably not about attack weaving.
A couple of days ago I saw something interesting. And I believe that's what all the topics about animation cancelling are about. So I was playing PVP and I this guy swung his sword ONCE and I died. I was running keeping Healing ward and heals up + with major armor buff, so instead of just rezzing as usual, I went to the death recap. What I saw there is 2 procs (which is whatever -a whole different subject of imbalance) AND THREE ATTACKS - Dizzying swing, heavy attack, and I think a surprise attack, I forgot now, from that one guy.
And mind you, inb4 l2p, I've been playing for a while. And I know how weave attacks and I've been doing that for years. I'm pretty confident I can tell attack weaving from ONE SWING.
That is an old de-sink bug. As far as I know it isn't intentionally reproducible. I have had it happen from time to time, and you still need to time in all the attacks behind it while you are stuck in an animation. Then when it finally sinks back up, everything lands all at once. Sometimes it is based on the attackers side, other times the de-sink is from only the victims perspective. It is just more evidence that ZOS desperately needs to improve their netcode, especially in active, crowded environments.1 -
Alaztor91✭✭✭✭✭
✭That is an old de-sink bug. As far as I know it isn't intentionally reproducible. I have had it happen from time to time, and you still need to time in all the attacks behind it while you are stuck in an animation. Then when it finally sinks back up, everything lands all at once. Sometimes it is based on the attackers side, other times the de-sink is from only the victims perspective. It is just more evidence that ZOS desperately needs to improve their netcode, especially in active, crowded environments.
I guess that's the so called ''macroslice''?
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Voxicity✭✭✭✭✭
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Your forums account was created in March 2017 so I fail to see how you can miss the LOL button unless your first forums account was banned and this is a second one1 -
Trashkan✭✭✭Lol all these learn to play spammers would get wrecked without A.C. and you know it. I can pull my 30k dps without it and I can wreck your world in PvP without it and oh yeah I can out tank your sorry a**. You know why cause I'm a ****ing gamer for life that doesn't need to bend the rules or make stupid macros to help. I bet you guys still use game genie for f*** sake.1
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thebattlesaintb14_ESO wrote: »Shad0wfire99 wrote: »It's not broken. Use it or don't. It's your choice. You "animation cancelling is cheating/an exploit" need to let it go. Either learn to do it or shut up about it.
It is a textbook example of broken. It's an exploit. You "It's not broken and it's not an exploit" people need to accept that. Either learn to get over using your exploit crutch or shut up about it.
See how much of an ass you came across as?
In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers
Except Wrobel, the lead combat engineer has said on ESO Live that the studio has embraced it as part of the gameplay. So bickering on the thread about something the studio has officially green lighted is rather pointless.
https://youtu.be/ThZtwhYkKSs
= WROBEL IS LAZY AS AF1 -
laksikus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lol all these learn to play spammers would get wrecked without A.C. and you know it. I can pull my 30k dps without it and I can wreck your world in PvP without it and oh yeah I can out tank your sorry a**. You know why cause I'm a ****ing gamer for life that doesn't need to bend the rules or make stupid macros to help. I bet you guys still use game genie for f*** sake.
pls tell me the difference between animation canceling and macros.
And show me video proof with you doing 30k dps without any cancel. no light attack cancel and no bar swap cancel1 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Right, first off, the GCD for skills isn't 1 second, it's 0.6 seconds. Second, while I do hate the concept of light weaving I get that it's a way to raise a barrier between casuals and hardcore players and end-game people like that. Third, I would love them to consider all attacks like they consider wrecking blow or snipe, where you only consume stamina/magicka as soon as you fire/hit with the ability, but if you roll-dodge or block cast it does nothing.1 -
theamazingx✭✭✭✭Lol all these learn to play spammers would get wrecked without A.C. and you know it. I can pull my 30k dps without it and I can wreck your world in PvP without it and oh yeah I can out tank your sorry a**. You know why cause I'm a ****ing gamer for life that doesn't need to bend the rules or make stupid macros to help. I bet you guys still use game genie for f*** sake.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha2 -
BigBragg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭That is an old de-sink bug. As far as I know it isn't intentionally reproducible. I have had it happen from time to time, and you still need to time in all the attacks behind it while you are stuck in an animation. Then when it finally sinks back up, everything lands all at once. Sometimes it is based on the attackers side, other times the de-sink is from only the victims perspective. It is just more evidence that ZOS desperately needs to improve their netcode, especially in active, crowded environments.
I guess that's the so called ''macroslice''?
Correct0 -
Chims✭✭✭Merlin13KAGL wrote: »It's here to stay, and it makes some things more fluid.
What some people are seeing now is not AC, but a different bug involving queuing and desync.
Well, half right. So many people were doing it and it felt fluid enough that they left it, not because there would have been some major difficulty or balance required from any competent programmer.Animation canceling is poor code design and a flaw. Rather than fix it since it likely requires significant coding and rebalancing ZOS just decided to say its acceptable and expected behavior. It is really as simple as that. Anyone with any kind of understanding of coding or software should know that.- They could have adjusted times to match when people AC'd.
- They could have coded skills as a go/no-go condition after a certain point in the timing, each individually (would've added one whole variable).
- If it's before that timing mark, skill is canceled, along with the damage or benefit it would have provided.
- If it's after that timing mark, skill fires, but you're commited until the animation completes.
I've done it, I use it, & It's fine. But please, @Chims , don't for a moment propose that this would have been remotely difficult to properly implement.
OP, the only thing I'll give you is they could use a better tutorial teaching new people what it is, how to do it, and a way to help perfect or see flaws in their timing.
To make any of the changes it wouldn't be that simple. Each skill animation has different cancel and completion times. Not all animations are equal so now you would have to adjust animation times or change the animation itself. Before even doing that you would have to figure out what the correct time of the skill should be. Now if you put every animation at a equal time, guess what you have to do next? Adjust DPS/Buff numbers. What numbers are OP or UP? Now regen is too high because of lack to spend resources. Who knows.
Screw it just throw it in production and we will adjust later is a dumb attitude to have but seems the norm these days for gaming balance.
TLDR: you would throw quite a bit out of balance with your solution. Even a .3 second delay will add up significantly.0 -
Mazbt✭✭✭✭Learn to play your class and your rotations and just go away. This topic is getting so old.Mazari the Resurrected (AD)- PVP stamplar main
Maz the Druid - PVP group stam warden
- many others
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Fantasia0 -
This thread is bad and you should feel bad.. also stupid.0 -
JackDaniell✭✭✭✭✭
✭CooTiE2oh7 wrote: »I know that most of us are aware of animation cancelling and how much it affects this wrongful burst damage we are able to achieve. Similar games incorporate a decimal of a second cool down on instant casts to where the ability goes grey, cannot be used, and a little timer circle around the button makes one quick rotation in that time and becomes active available again. This would cut down on lag in the game big time because spam would no longer even registe. it would also make the game less broken and come more down to rotation and no so much how quick you can do your exploit. What do honest players think, as well as ZOS?
I sincerely wish that ZOS would make a test server just for a bit with no cancelling on it. THEN YOU WOULD ALL SEE JUST HOW STALE COMBAT WOULD BE WITHOUT IT. seriously, cancelling is such an integral part of combat. If hey remove it you would feel like your playing a dumbed down slow and clunky version of ESO.Ebonheart Templar
www.youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic4 -
the_broo11✭✭✭JackDaniell wrote: »CooTiE2oh7 wrote: »I know that most of us are aware of animation cancelling and how much it affects this wrongful burst damage we are able to achieve. Similar games incorporate a decimal of a second cool down on instant casts to where the ability goes grey, cannot be used, and a little timer circle around the button makes one quick rotation in that time and becomes active available again. This would cut down on lag in the game big time because spam would no longer even registe. it would also make the game less broken and come more down to rotation and no so much how quick you can do your exploit. What do honest players think, as well as ZOS?
I sincerely wish that ZOS would make a test server just for a bit with no cancelling on it. THEN YOU WOULD ALL SEE JUST HOW STALE COMBAT WOULD BE WITHOUT IT. seriously, cancelling is such an integral part of combat. If hey remove it you would feel like your playing a dumbed down slow and clunky version of ESO.
Oh how satisfying this would be. Get stuck in the crit rush animation.... GG can't cancel itXbox One NA
GT: the broo11
Spell Casting Wizard - medium 2h/bow stam sorc0 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »Right, first off, the GCD for skills isn't 1 second, it's 0.6 seconds. Second, while I do hate the concept of light weaving I get that it's a way to raise a barrier between casuals and hardcore players and end-game people like that. Third, I would love them to consider all attacks like they consider wrecking blow or snipe, where you only consume stamina/magicka as soon as you fire/hit with the ability, but if you roll-dodge or block cast it does nothing.
The GCD for skills is ~0.9 seconds. If it was 0.6 you could do 5 Surprise Attacks in 3 seconds.Edited by kadar on June 8, 2017 9:35PM0 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭the_broo11 wrote: »Wifeaggro13 wrote: »thebattlesaintb14_ESO wrote: »Shad0wfire99 wrote: »It's not broken. Use it or don't. It's your choice. You "animation cancelling is cheating/an exploit" need to let it go. Either learn to do it or shut up about it.
It is a textbook example of broken. It's an exploit. You "It's not broken and it's not an exploit" people need to accept that. Either learn to get over using your exploit crutch or shut up about it.
See how much of an ass you came across as?
In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers
Except Wrobel, the lead combat engineer has said on ESO Live that the studio has embraced it as part of the gameplay. So bickering on the thread about something the studio has officially green lighted is rather pointless.https://youtu.be/ThZtwhYkKSs
This is just poor design. It's a way to make combat more challenging with out actually making the combat mechanics have any layer of intricate behavior. the problem comes when you design your combat around DPS and nothing else and making People apply some behavior that was not inherent to the game design. Much like EQ 1 with kiting. EQ 1 had never intended you to be able to solo these group mobs but the community figured out how to achieve it. The difference is thats type of combat was not dependent upon a short coming of the game design and a twitch reflex to Achieve it. In all honesty, Worbel should not be in MMO game development. he has completely missed what MMO combat foundations were built upon and should be moved to a different part of ESO's development or fired. He has put ESO on an endless loop of combat eating itself like the god damned snake as their logo. there is no emerging gameplay just running itself in circles.
Perhaps try another game? Or should ZOS redesign the entire basis of the game to fit your perception of how all MMOs should be?
No just emerge your game play, don't run it in circles . I could care less that Animation canceling is a part of achieving High DPS . It adds something extra to an already rudimentary action combat system. but making the high number DPS the sole end requirement to do your end game and basing your encounter development around one aspect of your game is just dumb, boring and lazy. It has nothing to do with my perception it has to do with actually developing and emerging your game.0 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »@ OP you just have to lean how to do this like the others have.
https://youtu.be/jDW7ieQsp7E
https://youtu.be/ohJ91nRKFe0
Far as GCD. Lol what GCD? GCD to lot of the top end PvPers means the same thing in ESO. As gravity means to Neo in the Matrix. Absolutely nohting.
Anyways back on subject. This whole game is about glitching different systems and what not. In order to get the edge over your enemies. So you either man up and learn how to glitch with the best of them. Or you cry and quit and play something else. Animation Canceling and all the glitches that comes with that package is highly endorsed by the devs and this community. You just have to learn how to do it for your self.
there is nothing wrong with it as a layer of combat. this combat system is so rudimentary as it is it does add a layer. the problem is when it beomes the sole end game process and everything else is a secondary effect . Well.... then its lazy development0 -
theamazingx✭✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »@ OP you just have to lean how to do this like the others have.https://youtu.be/jDW7ieQsp7Ehttps://youtu.be/ohJ91nRKFe0
Far as GCD. Lol what GCD? GCD to lot of the top end PvPers means the same thing in ESO. As gravity means to Neo in the Matrix. Absolutely nohting.
Anyways back on subject. This whole game is about glitching different systems and what not. In order to get the edge over your enemies. So you either man up and learn how to glitch with the best of them. Or you cry and quit and play something else. Animation Canceling and all the glitches that comes with that package is highly endorsed by the devs and this community. You just have to learn how to do it for your self.
there is nothing wrong with it as a layer of combat. this combat system is so rudimentary as it is it does add a layer. the problem is when it beomes the sole end game process and everything else is a secondary effect . Well.... then its lazy development
And here is the fundamental misunderstanding that so many seem to have.
High dps isn't this sole bar to leap for endgame progression, because you need a mastery of mechanics and group synergy to even get high dps in endgame content. You can bring a group of Dummy parse-chasers into Rakkhat HM and still get wiped repeatedly. You can also clear it in one go with a group of 30k dd's.
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zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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You can do an heavy attack, then follow by a light, animation cancel it and an instant cast ability.ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »There is already a 1 second cool down for all skills regardless of whether the animation is cancelled. Are you suggesting it should be longer?
I would say the same just a week ago. But it's probably not about attack weaving.
A couple of days ago I saw something interesting. And I believe that's what all the topics about animation cancelling are about. So I was playing PVP and I this guy swung his sword ONCE and I died. I was running keeping Healing ward and heals up + with major armor buff, so instead of just rezzing as usual, I went to the death recap. What I saw there is 2 procs (which is whatever -a whole different subject of imbalance) AND THREE ATTACKS - Dizzying swing, heavy attack, and I think a surprise attack, I forgot now, from that one guy.
And mind you, inb4 l2p, I've been playing for a while. And I know how weave attacks and I've been doing that for years. I'm pretty confident I can tell attack weaving from ONE SWING.
That is an old de-sink bug. As far as I know it isn't intentionally reproducible. I have had it happen from time to time, and you still need to time in all the attacks behind it while you are stuck in an animation. Then when it finally sinks back up, everything lands all at once. Sometimes it is based on the attackers side, other times the de-sink is from only the victims perspective. It is just more evidence that ZOS desperately needs to improve their netcode, especially in active, crowded environments.
Hard hitting ranged attacks like snipe and crystal fragment also has travel time so you can do an instant cast last and it hit you first.
Its some talk of an way to getting off an heavy attack and an ability with casting time at once, then do LA and instant but no idea if this is possible.
Add the lag who generate the desync so an entire zerg hit you at once.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
KerinKor✭✭✭✭✭
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That this subject was thrashed to death over two years ago when ZOS said EXPLICITLY this is a feature they intend players to use: I could be wrong but I think it was actually Wrobel who said it, on here or a stream.CooTiE2oh7 wrote: »What do honest players think, as well as ZOS?
Also your thread title includes the word 'fix' which means that something's broken, there's nothing broken about AC so ...
/thread
Edited by KerinKor on June 9, 2017 2:00PM0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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This, they could add casting time to all skills, and to LA, this would remove light attacks as you would either do HA or an ability instead. It would also make bar swap more expensive as you could use two abilities rather than go on back bar.
That this subject was thrashed to death over two years ago when ZOS said EXPLICITLY this is a feature they intend players to use.CooTiE2oh7 wrote: »What do honest players think, as well as ZOS?
Also your thread title includes the word 'fix' which means that something's broken, there's nothing broken about AC, get over it!
/thread
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »Avran_Sylt wrote: »Right, first off, the GCD for skills isn't 1 second, it's 0.6 seconds. Second, while I do hate the concept of light weaving I get that it's a way to raise a barrier between casuals and hardcore players and end-game people like that. Third, I would love them to consider all attacks like they consider wrecking blow or snipe, where you only consume stamina/magicka as soon as you fire/hit with the ability, but if you roll-dodge or block cast it does nothing.
The GCD for skills is ~0.9 seconds. If it was 0.6 you could do 5 Surprise Attacks in 3 seconds.
Beat me to it...
The only way you can really take advantage of it is with a macro. Even then what difference is .1 second going to make, so I just say 1 second. Playing since beta...0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ThePaleItalian wrote: »If animation cancelling wasn't in the game, how much harder would trials and VMA be? I never get an answer to this.
easier actualy. if animation times matched cast times, meaning there is no need to animation cancel - more people would be able to put out higher dps, since it would be less twitch/ping dependent.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
They just need to make skill animations to last as long as their global cooldowns and the issue should be resolved, because some skill animations currently last more than the global cooldowns which is bypassed with animation calnceling (barswaps, blocks or dodge rolls).
To the ignorant people that did not understand the sentance above: animation canceling will NOT removed the skill's global colldowns but it will let you cast another one faster as for most skills the skill animation times are longer than their global colldowns. And when you animation cancel the skill you don't need to wait for it animation to end, just the global cooldown.
This is a completely different thing thant ZOS's statement of allowing animation canceling. Animation canceling is a good thing as it is essential for blocking and dodge rolling attack.
The issue is that animation canceling allows you to do more DPS as some skill animations are not adjusted to match the global colldowns which needs to be corrected!!!0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »
Shortening animations so the complete during the skil CD would looks very odd and unappealing.
and abruptly cut shot animation.. doesn't?dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0
