Animation Cancelling (Possible Fix?)

Alaztor91

I could be wrong but wasn't the combat in this game based around visual and auditory cues, so for example if you see or hear someone do X you would probably want to do Y to counter it.

Doesn't animation cancel negates to some extent part of that?. Sure you can say that ZoS embraced it as part of the gameplay because they were too lazy to fix it, but why do mobs in pve keep doing their slow telegraphed attacks then, why don't they weave in light attacks between skills? It would be only fair that they are also allowed to do it.

You can argue that button mashing takes more skill than reacting to incoming attacks, but the second is present in the vast majority of the game.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Vilelated wrote: »

So, how do you light attack weave?

https://youtu.be/nTjhXLQXpac

Insandros

It's not an exploit, just a player made « safe » feature for players who are actualy scared to face the proper time planned for fights mechanics by boosting DPS. I use it, but i wouldn't mind at all if it wasn't there I don't even cancel stuff on my warden, i love the animations.

And you can't remove animation cancel, already people doing vMA are crying it's harder since Morrowind, imagine how much suicide % will rise up from those guys not able to easy go through vMA :P It'll be their end of the world.

Chims

Animation canceling is poor code design and a flaw. Rather than fix it since it likely requires significant coding and rebalancing ZOS just decided to say its acceptable and expected behavior. It is really as simple as that. Anyone with any kind of understanding of coding or software should know that.

idk

Seems there a quite a few people still figuring things out.

radiospam

wasn't a big issue with 'queuing' skills until DB patch. we voiced our concerns then and now most all animations are broken. GG

Kay1

Trashkan wrote: »

I hate how ******* stupid it makes the game look and the developers when you create different classes of weapons like duel wield and 2h you would think that the 2h would be slower. In every other instance in every other game. So it was not intended it was incorporated because it became a go to for a lot of players zos made it a thing rather than fixing this exploit. I think it's kinda dumb you go PvP and that's all you see a 2h crit rush and by the end of animation you get hit by wrecking blow incapacitating strike wrecking blow and if you survive that get ready for fear.

This is the clear example of someone who have no idea of what they are talking about.

Drummerx04

ThePaleItalian wrote: »

If animation cancelling wasn't in the game, how much harder would trials and VMA be? I never get an answer to this.

You never get an answer because it is very difficult to speculate. Currently, there is a series of global cooldowns that are interconnected and set each other off, so it's not like the question is simply "what is the expected dps loss if animation cancelling is removed?"

With AC, I can freely cast a skill and then DODGE incoming damage with a roll, or block. If animation cancelling were removed, I guess I couldn't block or dodge until the animation is done... Basically, vMA/trials would take longer and the combat would FEEL slow and clunky, even to everyone who goes out of their way to avoid AC.

I can pretty much guarantee that most of the community complaining about AC actually does it without knowing. For example: spam dark flare button once per second. Congrats, you just animation cancelled.

And for those saying AC is unfair because not everyone is physically able to do it... that's like saying the NBA is unfair because they have physical requirements.

Drummerx04

Alaztor91 wrote: »

(1) I could be wrong but wasn't the combat in this game based around visual and auditory cues, so for example if you see or hear someone do X you would probably want to do Y to counter it.

Doesn't animation cancel negates to some extent part of that?. Sure you can say that ZoS embraced it as part of the gameplay because they were too lazy to fix it, (2)but why do mobs in pve keep doing their slow telegraphed attacks then, why don't they weave in light attacks between skills? It would be only fair that they are also allowed to do it.

You can argue that button mashing takes more skill than reacting to incoming attacks, but the second is present in the vast majority of the game.

1. Probably. You can still react to what players hit you with, but honestly how many skills actually have true counters? If a skill has a cast time it can be interrupted via bash/crushing/(venom arrow?) but animation cancelling doesn't stop that from being possible. I guess the counter to Dizzying swing is to block, but given lag and realistic human reaction times, half the time you can't even react properly during that windup. PVP combat isn't about countering individual skills, it's actually centered around countering and working with groups of skills.
2. If mobs in pve actually used player like weaving and attacked on Cooldown like players, then the overland mobs would absolutely destroy 90% of the player base. How much does the average mob connect for with a light attack on a light armor player? 3k? Can you imaging pulling 3 overland mobs, that spammed light attacks once per second and weaved in steel tornado at the same time. That's quite a lot of damage to mitigate.

seedubsrun

I love when threads like this pop up again. I can just grab a snack and casually watch players of the same community berate each other for stupid reasons. Would love to get in on it but I feel pretty neutral about this one. I don't mind it's there, I think it's a great advantage to the skilled players that have mastered their rotations. The only part on the other side of the argument I get is Tamriel is a world where casting a spell or performing an ability requires an animation so if you could prevent the animation then logically you would not be casting or performing that skill. Since magic isn't real though, who cares?

kadar

CooTiE2oh7 wrote: »

I know that most of us are aware of animation cancelling and how much it affects this wrongful burst damage we are able to achieve. Similar games incorporate a decimal of a second cool down on instant casts to where the ability goes grey, cannot be used, and a little timer circle around the button makes one quick rotation in that time and becomes active available again. This would cut down on lag in the game big time because spam would no longer even registe. it would also make the game less broken and come more down to rotation and no so much how quick you can do your exploit. What do honest players think, as well as ZOS?

Can't fix something that is not broken. Can't exploit something that is working as intended. This is pretty much all that needs to be said on the subject.

idk

Drummerx04 wrote: »

ThePaleItalian wrote: »

If animation cancelling wasn't in the game, how much harder would trials and VMA be? I never get an answer to this.

You never get an answer because it is very difficult to speculate. Currently, there is a series of global cooldowns that are interconnected and set each other off, so it's not like the question is simply "what is the expected dps loss if animation cancelling is removed?"

With AC, I can freely cast a skill and then DODGE incoming damage with a roll, or block. If animation cancelling were removed, I guess I couldn't block or dodge until the animation is done... Basically, vMA/trials would take longer and the combat would FEEL slow and clunky, even to everyone who goes out of their way to avoid AC.

I can pretty much guarantee that most of the community complaining about AC actually does it without knowing. For example: spam dark flare button once per second. Congrats, you just animation cancelled.

And for those saying AC is unfair because not everyone is physically able to do it... that's like saying the NBA is unfair because they have physical requirements.

This shines light on the most important part. Without animation canceling it would mean we would be stuck in an animation, unable to block an incoming attack.

I guarantee you thise that have complained about animation canceling have done it. Either that or they did a lot just standing there getting hit by heavy attacks. It's a normal reaction for a great many players that are accustomed to the block and bash ability to use them when appropriate.

Get rid of canceling and we will see these same people back in the forums complaining about being one shot because they were not able to block due to the skill CD.

Trashkan

Royaji wrote: »

Just a heads up to all the anti-animation cancelling people.

The moment you start talking about ani-cancelled Wrecking Blows you loose all possible credibility. You do not even understand how it works but try to argue why it should be removed.

Maybe I don't know how it works but I think everyone agrees 2 wrecking blows in under a second is dumb and anyone who disagrees uses this dumb mechanic it's just dumb.

Spacemonkey

BigBragg wrote: »

thebattlesaintb14_ESO wrote: »

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

It's not broken. Use it or don't. It's your choice. You "animation cancelling is cheating/an exploit" need to let it go. Either learn to do it or shut up about it.

It is a textbook example of broken. It's an exploit. You "It's not broken and it's not an exploit" people need to accept that. Either learn to get over using your exploit crutch or shut up about it.

See how much of an ass you came across as?

In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers

Except Wrobel, the lead combat engineer has said on ESO Live that the studio has embraced it as part of the gameplay. So bickering on the thread about something the studio has officially green lighted is rather pointless.

https://youtu.be/ThZtwhYkKSs

Otherwise they would've had to ban 25% of the player base

ThePaleItalian

Drummerx04 wrote: »

ThePaleItalian wrote: »

If animation cancelling wasn't in the game, how much harder would trials and VMA be? I never get an answer to this.

You never get an answer because it is very difficult to speculate. Currently, there is a series of global cooldowns that are interconnected and set each other off, so it's not like the question is simply "what is the expected dps loss if animation cancelling is removed?"

With AC, I can freely cast a skill and then DODGE incoming damage with a roll, or block. If animation cancelling were removed, I guess I couldn't block or dodge until the animation is done... Basically, vMA/trials would take longer and the combat would FEEL slow and clunky, even to everyone who goes out of their way to avoid AC.

I can pretty much guarantee that most of the community complaining about AC actually does it without knowing. For example: spam dark flare button once per second. Congrats, you just animation cancelled.

And for those saying AC is unfair because not everyone is physically able to do it... that's like saying the NBA is unfair because they have physical requirements.

Ah OK, just curious, not against it or anything, just always wondered about the mechanic. Being a tank, it would be a bit more interesting not being able to block during a skill. I get both sides. Thank you for responding.

Sigtric

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

ThePaleItalian wrote: »

If animation cancelling wasn't in the game, how much harder would trials and VMA be? I never get an answer to this.

You never get an answer because it is very difficult to speculate. Currently, there is a series of global cooldowns that are interconnected and set each other off, so it's not like the question is simply "what is the expected dps loss if animation cancelling is removed?"

With AC, I can freely cast a skill and then DODGE incoming damage with a roll, or block. If animation cancelling were removed, I guess I couldn't block or dodge until the animation is done... Basically, vMA/trials would take longer and the combat would FEEL slow and clunky, even to everyone who goes out of their way to avoid AC.

I can pretty much guarantee that most of the community complaining about AC actually does it without knowing. For example: spam dark flare button once per second. Congrats, you just animation cancelled.

And for those saying AC is unfair because not everyone is physically able to do it... that's like saying the NBA is unfair because they have physical requirements.

This shines light on the most important part. Without animation canceling it would mean we would be stuck in an animation, unable to block an incoming attack.

I guarantee you thise that have complained about animation canceling have done it. Either that or they did a lot just standing there getting hit by heavy attacks. It's a normal reaction for a great many players that are accustomed to the block and bash ability to use them when appropriate.

Get rid of canceling and we will see these same people back in the forums complaining about being one shot because they were not able to block due to the skill CD.

I'm frustrated just thinking how much more of a pain in the ass the last boss in VMA alone would be with having to wait for animations so I can block/bash/Dodge when needed.

Eirella

Nooooo, not another thread. Please. Please, stop.

FearlessOne_2014

Eirella wrote: »

Nooooo, not another thread. Please. Please, stop.

IKR Threads like this give me a reason to throw this new addition to my collection on t the forums.



That gif. will never get old for me.

Darkstorne

BigBragg wrote: »

thebattlesaintb14_ESO wrote: »

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

It's not broken. Use it or don't. It's your choice. You "animation cancelling is cheating/an exploit" need to let it go. Either learn to do it or shut up about it.

It is a textbook example of broken. It's an exploit. You "It's not broken and it's not an exploit" people need to accept that. Either learn to get over using your exploit crutch or shut up about it.

See how much of an ass you came across as?

In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers

Except Wrobel, the lead combat engineer has said on ESO Live that the studio has embraced it as part of the gameplay. So bickering on the thread about something the studio has officially green lighted is rather pointless.

https://youtu.be/ThZtwhYkKSs

For exactly the same reason as ZOS have embraced the game's memory leak, the jumping bug, and will inevitably embrace all the issues with BGs. They love adding content, but hate fixing core engine issues. I'm not sure if they can't fix it or simply won't fix it, but the end result is the same.

The only difference with Animation Cancelling is they've been able to fool so many of you into believing it's a "feature"

Skcarkden

BigBragg wrote: »

thebattlesaintb14_ESO wrote: »

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

It's not broken. Use it or don't. It's your choice. You "animation cancelling is cheating/an exploit" need to let it go. Either learn to do it or shut up about it.

It is a textbook example of broken. It's an exploit. You "It's not broken and it's not an exploit" people need to accept that. Either learn to get over using your exploit crutch or shut up about it.

See how much of an ass you came across as?

In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers

Except Wrobel, the lead combat engineer has said on ESO Live that the studio has embraced it as part of the gameplay. So bickering on the thread about something the studio has officially green lighted is rather pointless.

https://youtu.be/ThZtwhYkKSs

So you're saying it's not broken, based on a dev who clearly only 'green lighted' because they quite simply are unable to fix it? This may not be Bethesda but they are affiliated so obviously the "It's not a bug, it's a feature!" card falls into play here. If they were able to fix it they most definitely would not be okaying it, it's only because they don't know how to or are unable.

So while they okay it, it doesn't detract from the fact it's broken and an exploit no matter how many times you say the devs 'embraced' it

Coilbox

Please, leave that poor dead horse alone... We've been over this too many times. Animation cancel doesn't need a fix.


MOVE

ON.

kadar

Skcarkden wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

thebattlesaintb14_ESO wrote: »

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

It's not broken. Use it or don't. It's your choice. You "animation cancelling is cheating/an exploit" need to let it go. Either learn to do it or shut up about it.

It is a textbook example of broken. It's an exploit. You "It's not broken and it's not an exploit" people need to accept that. Either learn to get over using your exploit crutch or shut up about it.

See how much of an ass you came across as?

In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers

Except Wrobel, the lead combat engineer has said on ESO Live that the studio has embraced it as part of the gameplay. So bickering on the thread about something the studio has officially green lighted is rather pointless.

https://youtu.be/ThZtwhYkKSs

So you're saying it's not broken, based on a dev who clearly only 'green lighted' because they quite simply are unable to fix it? This may not be Bethesda but they are affiliated so obviously the "It's not a bug, it's a feature!" card falls into play here. If they were able to fix it they most definitely would not be okaying it, it's only because they don't know how to or are unable.

So while they okay it, it doesn't detract from the fact it's broken and an exploit no matter how many times you say the devs 'embraced' it

The burden of proof lies with you folks.

We've got a mechanic that has been in play since the beginning. It adds a lot of depth and responsiveness to the combat system. The entire game has been balanced around it's use. We are, according the Devs, expected to AC. They have verbally expressed that it is neither a bug, nor an exploit. The laws of the game (Global Cooldown and animation priority) are not bypassed by AC.

Often I've found that when boiled down, people's aversion to AC is usually based on either their own inability (or refusal) to AC, or a lack of education on what AC actually is. Neither of those cases are grounds to re-build the entire combat system.

So: What is your proof that it is 1: broken (not functioning correctly) and 2: an exploit? The only argument I've seen in favor of it's removal is that it looks odd and handicapped people are unable to do it. Lastly, consider what it would actually take to remove AC from ESO. Consider what that would actually look like in a practical sense instead of calling for it's removal and just stating your opinion over and over when every evidence actually points to the opposite.

McCracken79

Having played multiple MMO's it was hard to get used to having virtually no cools downs on skills and having very little skills active on your bar. I didn't like it at first and I still do not but I am used to it now. I know ZOS wanted to make a unique MMO, and they have, but this wouldn't be an issue if we could put 20 skills on our bars and have real cool downs. For example cloak for a nightblade, lets say there was a 60 second cool down but it would last for 30 seconds unless you attack.

Allowing 15 or more skills up at once and having cools downs adds dimension in gaming that makes you think which in return makes you a better player. I mean look at BoL, spam this skill and heal to full almost every time, I mean come on... where is the skill in that?

vyndral13preub18_ESO

McCracken79 wrote: »

Having played multiple MMO's it was hard to get used to having virtually no cools downs on skills and having very little skills active on your bar. I didn't like it at first and I still do not but I am used to it now. I know ZOS wanted to make a unique MMO, and they have, but this wouldn't be an issue if we could put 20 skills on our bars and have real cool downs. For example cloak for a nightblade, lets say there was a 60 second cool down but it would last for 30 seconds unless you attack.

Allowing 15 or more skills up at once and having cools downs adds dimension in gaming that makes you think which in return makes you a better player. I mean look at BoL, spam this skill and heal to full almost every time, I mean come on... where is the skill in that?

It is why I still load up and go fight giant monsters in Tera from time to time. I think they called them B.A.M.s To much fun.

Merlin13KAGL

It's here to stay, and it makes some things more fluid.

What some people are seeing now is not AC, but a different bug involving queuing and desync.

Chims wrote: »

Animation canceling is poor code design and a flaw. Rather than fix it since it likely requires significant coding and rebalancing ZOS just decided to say its acceptable and expected behavior. It is really as simple as that. Anyone with any kind of understanding of coding or software should know that.

Well, half right. So many people were doing it and it felt fluid enough that they left it, not because there would have been some major difficulty or balance required from any competent programmer.

• They could have adjusted times to match when people AC'd.
• They could have coded skills as a go/no-go condition after a certain point in the timing, each individually (would've added one whole variable).
  • If it's before that timing mark, skill is canceled, along with the damage or benefit it would have provided.
  • If it's after that timing mark, skill fires, but you're commited until the animation completes.

I've done it, I use it, & It's fine. But please, @Chims , don't for a moment propose that this would have been remotely difficult to properly implement.

OP, the only thing I'll give you is they could use a better tutorial teaching new people what it is, how to do it, and a way to help perfect or see flaws in their timing.

theamazingx

McCracken79 wrote: »

I mean look at BoL, spam this skill and heal to full almost every time, I mean come on... where is the skill in that?

RIP magicka lol

WTB templars that can wave at the group indefinitely

Bam_Bam

OMG IT NOT EXPLOYT! SHUTT UPPP ALREADY K. LEARN PLAY. K BAI

kevlarto_ESO

The best fix for animation canceling is when you cancel an attack you get no benefit from it , you would still have smooth transition to another attack but you can't rack'em and stack'em, If I give you a check then cancel it you get no money, cancel needs to mean cancel.

idk

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

The best fix for animation canceling is when you cancel an attack you get no benefit from it , you would still have smooth transition to another attack but you can't rack'em and stack'em, If I give you a check then cancel it you get no money, cancel needs to mean cancel.

@kevlarto_ESO

It currently works this way. If an attack is canceled before the required time programmed into it has passed the skill will not execute.

It's merely some confuse the animation with the time required for the skill. It's really that simple.

Coilbox

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

The best fix for animation canceling is when you cancel an attack you get no benefit from it , you would still have smooth transition to another attack but you can't rack'em and stack'em, If I give you a check then cancel it you get no money, cancel needs to mean cancel.

There is an internal cool down on attacks and skills, 1 per second. Thats it, you cant stack anything. You cant bypass it.