Crit Resist Cap ?

raasdal · June 2017

With the release of Impregnable, i am seeing alot of people stacking up to 4-5k Impen.

Up untill now, i was under the impression that there was a floating cap, much like with resistances. With resistances the cap is at 50% mitigation, which is the 32.500 Mark of resistances. However, any penetration is counted the other way, so you could safely invest up to 40-50k Resistances, without them being wasted.

So, as mentioned, i thought it was the same for Crit Resist. You could reduce up to the standard 50% bonus damage, at around 3500 Impen. Anything more than that, would be wasted, unless your attacker had a higher Crit bonus, like ie. 70%, in which case you could have around 5000 Impen to reduce that bonus to 0%.

But what i have been told now, is that you can actually reduce an enemy's crit BELOW the non-crit value. Meaning that your Impen can effectively give your opponen a NEGATIVE crit-modifier.

This would not make any sense, in relations to how everything else works in this game, in respect to not allowing players to mitigate damage or reduce cost, down to a 0% rate (which for anything is gamebreaking). At least this would be so, if my other assumption of Crit Resist being a percentagepoint reduction to your opponents crit-modifier.

Could someone confirm this with testing from Live server?

Waffennacht · June 2017

There is no impen cap.

Beardimus · June 2017

^ 100% sure? @waffennacht

Any source for that, only I've been told multiple times 3300 is the cap. Or are you saying 3300 is max usable impen, in general, as it negates 50%. I.e. Anything over that is wasted unless the person has a Crit boost say trap / Shadow mundus etc.

Keen to know the answer on this!

NightbladeMechanics · June 2017

Crit resistance will reduce attackers' crit damage modifier by 1% per 68 crit resistance. You'll never make an opponent deal less than their noncrit base damage, but as long as they have crit damage to reduce, your resistance will do so linearly. There is no cap, and there are no diminishing returns.

Crit damage is also easier to stack with CP than crit resistance. You need to be careful not to stack too much crit resistance in no CP, though, because people lose a lot of crit damage and a little crit chance there.

Everyone's base crit damage is 50%. Nightblades get an additional 10%. Minor Force is 10%, and Major Force is 15%. CP can grant up to 25% more. Archer's Mind, an uncommon stamina set, grants 5% on unstealthed attacks and 15% on attacks from stealth.

Even with Impregnable, 8 impen, 100 Resistant, and Transmutation, you will not be able to mitigate all of the available crit damage in the game, but players stacking that much crit damage are as unlikely as those stacking all of this crit resistance.

Edit: I'm going to add a recommendation after all of these numbers. 4080 crit resistance reduces enemy crit damage by 60%. I wouldn't go above that number in no CP. That will negate all of a nightblade's crit damage unless they proc Rearming Trap on you. 4760 reduces crit damage by 70%. I wouldn't go above that number in CP, although getting that high takes real effort. Yes crit resistance is very valuable even in no CP because crit chance levels should still be around 35-40%, and people will be looking to coordinate to burst you down.

raasdal · June 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

There is no impen cap.

@Waffennacht

But that sentence means nothing in this regard?

There is a HUGE difference between saying "There is no Impen Cap" and "You can get impen BEYOND a full reduction".

As my text explains, i am aware that there is no hardcap at any point. But when there is no Cap, that would still usually mean that you could only mitigate down to 0%. What i have been told on the other hand, is that you can in fact mitigate a Crit Strike to take LESS damage than a Non-Crit. Which would mean that if you stacked enough Impen, you could reduce the total damage of an enemy crit strike to exactly 0 Damage.

So, the "No cap on Impen" makes no sense, in regard to my question here. Can you give your opponent a negative crit modifier?

@Asayre - I have my info on Crit Ratings (250 Impen = 3,5 %-point redux to enemy crit-modifier) from you (http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pts-2-1-2-sorcerer-arithmagic/). Did you ever test what happens when you have more Crit Resist than the attacker has Crit-Modifier?

Berenhir · June 2017

Today it should really be common knowledge that there is no cap for critical resistance. However, you cannot lower a critical strike's damage value below the non-critical value by the means of critical resistance.

Every 66 (at cp 160 = Level 66 for ESO) of critical resistance lower your opponents critical damge modifier by 1%. So at e.g. 5280 critresist, you can negate an average nightblade's damage modifier of 1.8.

raasdal · June 2017

Berenhir wrote: »

Today it should really be common knowledge that there is no cap for critical resistance. However, you cannot lower a critical strike's damage value below the non-critical value by the means of critical resistance.

Every 66 (at cp 160 = Level 66 for ESO) of critical resistance lower your opponents critical damge modifier by 1%. So at e.g. 5280 critresist, you can negate an average nightblade's damage modifier of 1.8.

@Berenhir

Yes, this is also how i have always known it to be.

But in this specific Fengrush video linked below, someone named Fear Turbo (dunno if he is on forum or even a known player) is repeating that he / someone else has tested on Morrowind PTS, that they could stack Impen BEYOND a 0% Crit Modifier. As he says;

"as tested of PTS, you can get higher. there is no cap, and you can get so much CR, that a crit does less damage than a non crit."

Is this *** or not? Have anyone tested recently, what ACTUALLY happens, when you have more Crit Resist, than your opponent has Crit Modifier?

https://youtu.be/zEgKAaM9fEs

Berenhir · June 2017

raasdal wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Today it should really be common knowledge that there is no cap for critical resistance. However, you cannot lower a critical strike's damage value below the non-critical value by the means of critical resistance.

Every 66 (at cp 160 = Level 66 for ESO) of critical resistance lower your opponents critical damge modifier by 1%. So at e.g. 5280 critresist, you can negate an average nightblade's damage modifier of 1.8.

@Berenhir

Yes, this is also how i have always known it to be.

But in this specific Fengrush video linked below, someone named Fear Turbo (dunno if he is on forum or even a known player) is repeating that he / someone else has tested on Morrowind PTS, that they could stack Impen BEYOND a 0% Crit Modifier. As he says;

"as tested of PTS, you can get higher. there is no cap, and you can get so much CR, that a crit does less damage than a non crit."

Is this *** or not? Have anyone tested recently, what ACTUALLY happens, when you have more Crit Resist, than your opponent has Crit Modifier?

https://youtu.be/zEgKAaM9fEs

I haven't done any specific tests but I'll summon the master of ceremony @paulsimonps

raasdal · June 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Crit resistance will reduce attackers' crit damage modifier by 1% per 68 crit resistance. You'll never make an opponent deal less than their noncrit base damage, but as long as they have crit damage to reduce, your resistance will do so linearly. There is no cap, and there are no diminishing returns.

Crit damage is also easier to stack with CP than crit resistance. You need to be careful not to stack too much crit resistance in no CP, though, because people lose a lot of crit damage and a little crit chance there.

Everyone's base crit damage is 50%. Nightblades get an additional 10%. Minor Force is 10%, and Major Force is 15%. CP can grant up to 25% more. Archer's Mind, an uncommon stamina set, grants 5% on unstealthed attacks and 15% on attacks from stealth.

Even with Impregnable, 8 impen, 100 Resistant, and Transmutation, you will not be able to mitigate all of the available crit damage in the game, but players stacking that much crit damage are as unlikely as those stacking all of this crit resistance.

Edit: I'm going to add a recommendation after all of these numbers. 4080 crit resistance reduces enemy crit damage by 60%. I wouldn't go above that number in no CP. That will negate all of a nightblade's crit damage unless they proc Rearming Trap on you. 4760 reduces crit damage by 70%. I wouldn't go above that number in CP, although getting that high takes real effort. Yes crit resistance is very valuable even in no CP because crit chance levels should still be around 35-40%, and people will be looking to coordinate to burst you down.

@NightbladeMechanics

Thanks for the input. What you are saying is also how i view it / my knowledge of it.

Do you have any comment on this guy saying that you can in fact make an opponent deal less than their noncrit base damage, in the comments of Fengrush's Video. Is it BS ?

Waffennacht · June 2017

Yeah I know I wasn't answering your exact question as I could only say that I think you can't go below 0. However I do not have any way to prove it. So I had to cut my post short.

NightbladeMechanics · June 2017

Beardimus wrote: »

^ 100% sure? @waffennacht

Any source for that, only I've been told multiple times 3300 is the cap. Or are you saying 3300 is max usable impen, in general, as it negates 50%. I.e. Anything over that is wasted unless the person has a Crit boost say trap / Shadow mundus etc.

Keen to know the answer on this!

My sources are my own testing, Asayre's testing, and dev friends.

raasdal wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Today it should really be common knowledge that there is no cap for critical resistance. However, you cannot lower a critical strike's damage value below the non-critical value by the means of critical resistance.

Every 66 (at cp 160 = Level 66 for ESO) of critical resistance lower your opponents critical damge modifier by 1%. So at e.g. 5280 critresist, you can negate an average nightblade's damage modifier of 1.8.

@Berenhir

Yes, this is also how i have always known it to be.

But in this specific Fengrush video linked below, someone named Fear Turbo (dunno if he is on forum or even a known player) is repeating that he / someone else has tested on Morrowind PTS, that they could stack Impen BEYOND a 0% Crit Modifier. As he says;

"as tested of PTS, you can get higher. there is no cap, and you can get so much CR, that a crit does less damage than a non crit."

Is this *** or not? Have anyone tested recently, what ACTUALLY happens, when you have more Crit Resist, than your opponent has Crit Modifier?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm their claims warrant further testing. This new patch did just come out, so something coulda changed! I'll go test it right meow.

raasdal · June 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

^ 100% sure? @waffennacht

Any source for that, only I've been told multiple times 3300 is the cap. Or are you saying 3300 is max usable impen, in general, as it negates 50%. I.e. Anything over that is wasted unless the person has a Crit boost say trap / Shadow mundus etc.

Keen to know the answer on this!

My sources are Asayre's testing and dev friends.

raasdal wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Today it should really be common knowledge that there is no cap for critical resistance. However, you cannot lower a critical strike's damage value below the non-critical value by the means of critical resistance.

Every 66 (at cp 160 = Level 66 for ESO) of critical resistance lower your opponents critical damge modifier by 1%. So at e.g. 5280 critresist, you can negate an average nightblade's damage modifier of 1.8.

@Berenhir

Yes, this is also how i have always known it to be.

But in this specific Fengrush video linked below, someone named Fear Turbo (dunno if he is on forum or even a known player) is repeating that he / someone else has tested on Morrowind PTS, that they could stack Impen BEYOND a 0% Crit Modifier. As he says;

"as tested of PTS, you can get higher. there is no cap, and you can get so much CR, that a crit does less damage than a non crit."

Is this *** or not? Have anyone tested recently, what ACTUALLY happens, when you have more Crit Resist, than your opponent has Crit Modifier?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm their claims warrant further testing. This new patch did just come out, so something coulda changed! I'll go test it right meow.

An actual test to prove / disprove would be just awesome!

NightbladeMechanics · June 2017

Alright the test is in. You can NOT mitigate a crit via crit resistance to deal less than noncrit damage. EVER.

Beardimus · June 2017

Learning some stuff on this thread that's for sure!

Uncle_Sweetshare · June 2017

Beardimus wrote: »

Learning some stuff on this thread that's for sure!

For real. Thanks for the solid info @NightbladeMechanics

raasdal · June 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Alright the test is in. You can NOT mitigate a crit via crit resistance to deal less than noncrit damage. EVER.

I love you Kena!

Asayre · June 2017

raasdal wrote: »

Did you ever test what happens when you have more Crit Resist than the attacker has Crit-Modifier?

You deal the same damage as a non-crit. I achieved a critical resistance of 3498 on the PC Live servers and this still occurs. I did not watch the linked video as it is too long. Could you specify the rough time when they discuss
"as tested of PTS, you can get higher. there is no cap, and you can get so much CR, that a crit does less damage than a non crit."
and how the testing was performed?

raasdal · June 2017

Asayre wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Did you ever test what happens when you have more Crit Resist than the attacker has Crit-Modifier?

You deal the same damage as a non-crit. I achieved a critical resistance of 3498 on the PC Live servers and this still occurs. I did not watch the linked video as it is too long. Could you specify the rough time when they discuss
"as tested of PTS, you can get higher. there is no cap, and you can get so much CR, that a crit does less damage than a non crit."
and how the testing was performed?

@Asayre - thanks for pinging in

It is not in the video, it is in the comment section.

But Kena already tested it on live server, and came back with he expected result. That you cannot resist more than the crit-modifier. So i don't think we need anymore testing on this.

Juhasow · June 2017

Ok i maded tests on live server and results are simple. CRIT RESIST DOES NOT HAVE A CAP

Here is description of numbers in testing. In all tries i had the same resistances and CP only thing that changes was my crit resistance. Enemie that attacked me had 0,79/79% crit modifier.

1. 0 crit resistance : non crit 1992 / crit 3566 (79% stronger crit dmg)
2. 3301 crit resistance : non crit 1992 / crit 2570 (29% stronger crit dmg )
3. 4937 crit resistance : non crit 1992 / crit 2092 (5% stronger crit dmg)

So as we can see when we have 3,3k crit resistance which supposed to be the cap we actually cut base critical dmg modifier which is 0,5 but it doesnt stop there and further lowers other sources of critical dmg bonus. With something around 5,2k we could lower crit dmg of test subject to the point he would deal 1992 with and without crit.

I've seen some people think You can go to the point where enemie deals less critical dmg then non critical one. That;s not true. I've maded additional test my friend tooked off CP's from precise strikes so his critical modifier was 0,6 I had 5029 crit resist. Result was exact the same crit and non crit dmg 1992.

So what does that mean ? In non cp enviroment there is no huge point in having more then 3,3k crit resist because only nb and templar can deal additonal 10% more crit dmg and maybe enemie with trap beast so max crit resist that is reasonable in non CP is around 3,5-3,7k. Hovewer in CP enviroment when people using champion points to boost their critical dmg , also using traps more often and thx for higher resource pool and resource managment they can deal more constant dmg , having crit resistance a lot above the number that is belived to be cap have a lot of sense for builds that doesnt rely heavily on shieldstacking or permablocking.

rfennell_ESO · June 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

There is no impen cap.

There is no impen cap.

However there is a point where it is reducing all critical damage and more does nothing for you.

That will vary based on who you are facing.

Rickter · June 2017

I have 1200-ish crit resistance with 6 pieces impen in no cp - how are people getting their crit resistance in the 4k ballpark in no cp?

Juhasow · June 2017

Rickter wrote: »

I have 1200-ish crit resistance with 6 pieces impen in no cp - how are people getting their crit resistance in the 4k ballpark in no cp?

Impregnable set. it gives 2,5k crit resist at 5 piece bonus.

Rickter · June 2017

Juhasow wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

I have 1200-ish crit resistance with 6 pieces impen in no cp - how are people getting their crit resistance in the 4k ballpark in no cp?

Impregnable set. it gives 2,5k crit resist at 5 piece bonus.

thanks. thats why its selling like hot cakes!

Joy_Division · June 2017

Rickter wrote: »

I have 1200-ish crit resistance with 6 pieces impen in no cp - how are people getting their crit resistance in the 4k ballpark in no cp?

Impeg armor + transmutation is nearly 4K

Minalan · June 2017

Rickter wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

I have 1200-ish crit resistance with 6 pieces impen in no cp - how are people getting their crit resistance in the 4k ballpark in no cp?

Impregnable set. it gives 2,5k crit resist at 5 piece bonus.

thanks. thats why its selling like hot cakes!

Because it's ridiculously overpowered?

ZOS are a bunch of halfwitted clowns. Why else would they give a five piece bonus worth TEN impen armor pieces at 250 each?

It's like Wrobel didn't pay attention in math class.

paulsimonps · June 2017

Berenhir wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Today it should really be common knowledge that there is no cap for critical resistance. However, you cannot lower a critical strike's damage value below the non-critical value by the means of critical resistance.

Every 66 (at cp 160 = Level 66 for ESO) of critical resistance lower your opponents critical damge modifier by 1%. So at e.g. 5280 critresist, you can negate an average nightblade's damage modifier of 1.8.

@Berenhir

Yes, this is also how i have always known it to be.

But in this specific Fengrush video linked below, someone named Fear Turbo (dunno if he is on forum or even a known player) is repeating that he / someone else has tested on Morrowind PTS, that they could stack Impen BEYOND a 0% Crit Modifier. As he says;

"as tested of PTS, you can get higher. there is no cap, and you can get so much CR, that a crit does less damage than a non crit."

Is this *** or not? Have anyone tested recently, what ACTUALLY happens, when you have more Crit Resist, than your opponent has Crit Modifier?

https://youtu.be/zEgKAaM9fEs

I haven't done any specific tests but I'll summon the master of ceremony @paulsimonps

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1

I need to update it slightly and change some wordings. But like many others have said so far and I can't understand why we need to keep telling people, there is no cap and it can't make people deal less than base damage. Simple, bang, boom, done.

Also thanks for the tag

raasdal · June 2017

@paulsimonps

Why am i only seeing your thread now? That's like candy for a Theorycrafter and numbers-lover like myself. Thank you for the hard work!

A quick question if i may? Currently doing something with resistances, trying to make a functional 45-50k resistances PvP build and noticed your section on the resistance Cap. You mention that if someone debuffs you, it will be beneficial to have above-cap resistances. I was under the impression that the same was true for any other penetration from opponent. Such as Sharpened Weapon og Spinners etc. My impression was that the cap is not really on the specific resistance number, but more on the end-result, wiht 50% mitigation being maximum. So if someone in Light Armor and Spinner, with Sharp weapon ignores 15k resistances, i can count that towards what i could "overstack" my resistances with, right?

I am asking because, there could potentially be a big difference between having ones own resistance numbers debuffed, or having them be ignored by opponent "buff".

Stigant · June 2017

raasdal wrote: »

This would not make any sense, in relations to how everything else works in this game...

Very few mechanics actually do ... welcome

edit: typo

paulsimonps · June 2017

raasdal wrote: »

@paulsimonps

Why am i only seeing your thread now? That's like candy for a Theorycrafter and numbers-lover like myself. Thank you for the hard work!

A quick question if i may? Currently doing something with resistances, trying to make a functional 45-50k resistances PvP build and noticed your section on the resistance Cap. You mention that if someone debuffs you, it will be beneficial to have above-cap resistances. I was under the impression that the same was true for any other penetration from opponent. Such as Sharpened Weapon og Spinners etc. My impression was that the cap is not really on the specific resistance number, but more on the end-result, wiht 50% mitigation being maximum. So if someone in Light Armor and Spinner, with Sharp weapon ignores 15k resistances, i can count that towards what i could "overstack" my resistances with, right?

I am asking because, there could potentially be a big difference between having ones own resistance numbers debuffed, or having them be ignored by opponent "buff".

Any form of penetration as well as debuff will lower your Resistance, when calculating your resistance towards their attack you subtract their debuff and penetration to see your total resistance. Remember the elemental part of that section though that the sub categories of a ressitance type adds to their main type but if you get debuffed or penetrated it debuffs and penetraits the sub category too if it goes that far.

Capsaica · June 2017

raasdal wrote: »

@paulsimonps

Why am i only seeing your thread now? That's like candy for a Theorycrafter and numbers-lover like myself. Thank you for the hard work!

A quick question if i may? Currently doing something with resistances, trying to make a functional 45-50k resistances PvP build and noticed your section on the resistance Cap. You mention that if someone debuffs you, it will be beneficial to have above-cap resistances. I was under the impression that the same was true for any other penetration from opponent. Such as Sharpened Weapon og Spinners etc. My impression was that the cap is not really on the specific resistance number, but more on the end-result, wiht 50% mitigation being maximum. So if someone in Light Armor and Spinner, with Sharp weapon ignores 15k resistances, i can count that towards what i could "overstack" my resistances with, right?

I am asking because, there could potentially be a big difference between having ones own resistance numbers debuffed, or having them be ignored by opponent "buff".

Then someone comes along and smacks you upside the head with the 2h ultimate ignoring all of that lovely resist and steals your resistances for 8s...

Get Wrobeled...

paulsimonps · June 2017

Capsaica wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

@paulsimonps

Why am i only seeing your thread now? That's like candy for a Theorycrafter and numbers-lover like myself. Thank you for the hard work!

A quick question if i may? Currently doing something with resistances, trying to make a functional 45-50k resistances PvP build and noticed your section on the resistance Cap. You mention that if someone debuffs you, it will be beneficial to have above-cap resistances. I was under the impression that the same was true for any other penetration from opponent. Such as Sharpened Weapon og Spinners etc. My impression was that the cap is not really on the specific resistance number, but more on the end-result, wiht 50% mitigation being maximum. So if someone in Light Armor and Spinner, with Sharp weapon ignores 15k resistances, i can count that towards what i could "overstack" my resistances with, right?

I am asking because, there could potentially be a big difference between having ones own resistance numbers debuffed, or having them be ignored by opponent "buff".

Then someone comes along and smacks you upside the head with the 2h ultimate ignoring all of that lovely resist and steals your resistances for 8s...

Get Wrobeled...

Its really powerful in non CP PvP cause in CP PvP you get so many other passive sources of mitigation. Its still possible to get a lot of mitigation that is not CP in PvP but it will drain your damage capabilities going with those options.