New Jump Points on almost every CP star - read before reassigning your CP

Celas_Dranacea · May 2017

Minno wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

I just usually take the square of the hypotenuse divided by banana - don't see the problem here

A function of the Dirty Elf. :P

Lol @Minno I see that we are both intent on contributing productively to this conversation

I accept jump points. But I also support any changes that reflect true matching to the tool tip values.

Basically whatever floats people's boat.

See you went and made a comment that is relevant so now I feel compelled to as well.

Yes - this should be cleaned up for the average player but I don't expect many are super concerned.

Personally I'm flexible I just wait for whatever CP meta to establish itself and adjust accordingly without thinking about it too much. Filthy casual here tho

Kildayen · May 2017

Victoria_Marquis wrote: »

ZOS needs to go in and fix the text discription on the tool tips on how Champion points actually work,... They need to state exactly the jump points, like Original Poster put down.

Hey ZOS, fix your game.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom please communicate with us on this.

Xylphan · May 2017

R_K wrote: »

For anyone who writes software, you can pretty much guess what's happening behind the scenes in the game's code...

Instead of something like this:

...
float cpThaumaturge = getPlayerCP("Thaumaturge");
return PuncturingSweepsDamage * ( 1 + ( cpThaumaturge / 100 ) );
...

There's likely something like this:

...
int cpThaumaturge = getPlayerCP("Thaumaturge");
return PuncturingSweepsDamage * ( 1 + ( cpThaumaturge / 100 ) );
...

A simple error such as this could lead to the undocumented "jump point" rounding errors being discussed here. Hopefully, at some point, a developer at ZOS will stumble upon these errors and simply refactor the variable(s) to use floating point instead of integer.

Your explanation of the simple error has an error.

CP points are whole numbers so the would naturally be ints. You'd need another factor in your calculation to include the max percentage boost for the category. More like:

return PuncturingSweepsDamage * ( 1 + maxPercentageBoost*( cpThaumaturge / 100 ) ); //at 100, you get the max 25%

But a percentage would naturally be stored as a float so would render the result as float. This would point to a deliberate truncation as opposed to an accidental one.

Now it's still possible to come up with an example that would truncate to an int as opposed to a float, but you'd have to be trying at that point as most approaches would have at least one part of the computation truncate to zero resulting in a really obvious error.

So my take on this is that it's done on purpose and is functioning as designed. Effectively, it's operating on the same principle as leveling. You don't get your attribute points until you cross an experience level. You don't get your CP effects until you cross a percentage level.

But that is far from obvious. At a bare minimum they should add a blurb of text describing this. But really they need something like a progress bar to be more intuitive.

Of course, I could be completely wrong and this is all a result of a junior level programming mistake.

max_only · May 2017

Gamanoid wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Some stars only take 23 points to get to 10% instead of the 43 points they were supposedly changed to, same as before patch. Is that intentional?

Yes, it is called front loading, makes it matter less that you have more cp.

But only some of them are "front loaded"... I thought it was supposed to be all of them

Are you sure they have the same max value? 15/25/35% have different frontloading proportions to get to 10%, so you can't have a generic "23 points to get to 10%" statement without comparing the same max valued nodes.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Some stars only take 23 points to get to 10% instead of the 43 points they were supposedly changed to, same as before patch. Is that intentional?

Yes, it is called front loading, makes it matter less that you have more cp.

But only some of them are "front loaded"... I thought it was supposed to be all of them

All of them are front loaded, as the other poster pointed out, but there are some that are 15% and take 100cp, there are some that are 25% and 100cp and there is one that is 55% and takes 100cp to max out, you can see why it takes different amounts of cp to reach 10% when 10% of 15% is different then 10% of 25 or 55%.

Thanks guys! Yeah, I don't have max cp yet so I've never gotten to the max of a star.

disintegr8 · May 2017

Maybe they should change how CP allocation is displayed so it is more like your character and skill levels - with only whole numbers displayed and a progress bar showing how much you have progressed towards the next whole number.

My apologies if this has been suggested already but I admit to not reading every post in the thread.

I also think they need it clearly stated that only the whole number is applied. There is no point someone thinking that 7.8% is so close to 8% for the difference to be inconsequential if they are only getting 7% benefit.

max_only · May 2017

Maybe this should be stickied

Boradordin · May 2017

Someone please explain why as a Stamblade I would be putting points into a tank constellation? Asinine!!! Putting points into such a constellation will make me less effective as a DPS. The same in reverse applies to a tank and a DPS constellation.

Furthermore, as pertains to front loading, why should those who have not been playing as long as others reap the benefits of low CP? It will not benefit anyone to reach higher than CP300. Please, please Zenimax, get someone on staff with a modicum of common sense. At this rate they'll have new players, who don't spend money, while those dedicated players with money to spend will have gotten frustrated and found another game to play. Common Sense Zenimax!!!

MCBIZZLE300 · May 2017

I don't think this was intended.

Boradordin · May 2017

Whether it was intended or not, it will happen. The day is coming when a CP300 is only marginally weaker than a CP630.

I'm going to miss this game, but not the aggrevation caused by the developers. I lose a game; they lose my money, my wife's money, and my daughter's money.

Anyone want to play Sword Coast Legends?

Juponen · May 2017

There should be a lot less CP's to be had and each one in itself should be a meaningful (not a fraction of meaningful) buff or ability from a large pool of possibilities, some of which purely for fun.

Then we would have some real diversity and the servers would not choke on doing 12.025678% buff hits 13,05887% negation calculations.

Linken · May 2017

Important Thread will Bump.

Skjoldur · May 2017

MaximusDargus wrote: »

If you dont follow PTS subforum, here is a thing, as @Asayre found out (and later other people joined in), starting from Morrowind almost every CP star will use so called "jump points" (before it was limited only to two CP stars). What does it mean? Even if we can distribute 100CP into specific star, it might happen that even if adding 5CP promises us X.X% of increase(decrease) of something, it wont happen because we did not reach next "jump point".

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/340367/impact-of-mage-champion-point-rebalances/p1

Taken from that thread, for a CP star that max out at 15% the jump points are at 0, 4, 7,11,15,19,23,27,32,37,43,49,56,64,75,100 CP's.
This practically means that if you are currently at 4CP in that tree and you want to add more CP in there, if you wont reach next jump point (at 7CP) all the new CP are wasted.
Other example is that if you are at 75CP, all the CP added in there, untill you reach 100CP, do not give you any benefit (beside generic slight increase to max resources). If its a "Reduce damage taken" CP passive, the damage you take will be exactly same at 75CP as at 99CP (despite that in between these points, CP passive tooltip is suggesting that you should notice difference).

Whoever wants to learn more about this, please visit mentioned thread while we go back to the point. And what is the point? Just like with many other things, players are not told about this anywhere. If nobody would discover it players would invest CP, expecting X.X% change in stats (as its promised by CP tooltip) while they are getting nothing.

Despite these jump points being in game, players are still told in CP toltips that adding 1CP will give them increase/decrease to stat while in most extreme cases they would need to add whole 24CP for a change to happen.

The sole existence of "jump points" aside, I personally thing that worst thing about it is that players are not properly informed about it. Why tell us we will get 0.5% increase of something if its not true? Why not make it show real numbers as "next increase at X CP"?

Even if the description were correct... who in his right mind would design something like this? This has always been bull****.

johu31 · May 2017

ZO$ exposed.

Thrasher91604 · May 2017

They aren't jump points. It's just truncation to the lowest integer. Happens a lot in computers. Deal with it.

JinMori · May 2017

Wait, there's such a big bug, and zos didn't say anything about it? That's just shows how much they care about this game.
*** pathetic.

I really struggle to believe such a thing, that professional developers, Professional *** developers didn't realize/didn't inform/just ignored such an enormous bug.

And then these dudes wanna balance a game, dude don't make me laugh....

Thrasher91604 · May 2017

It's an optimization, as they seem obsessed that champion point calculations were somehow causing all the lag in Cyrodiil, which I thought they had debunked with no champion point tests on live, right? So, what is going on here?

Total chaos due to poor management? Or incredibly poor communication? Or lack of resources? All of the above?

Zyrudin · May 2017

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

They aren't jump points. It's just truncation to the lowest integer. Happens a lot in computers. Deal with it.

I think it is evident that truncating to the lowest integer causes fraction points to be useless and, therefore, for jump points to be present in the actual CP trees.

Thrasher91604 · May 2017

They aren't jump points, just truncation. Call it what it is rather than obsfucating "jump points".

Zyrudin · May 2017

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

They aren't jump points, just truncation. Call it what it is rather than obsfucating "jump points".

If 75 points are 14% and 100 points are 15%, with truncation to the lowest integer, all points between 76 and 99 are actually all 14%. So, 75 and 100 are, in reality and mathematically, jump points, due to the truncation you mentioned.

It is the truncation that causes them to be jump points.

Rinmaethodain · May 2017

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

They aren't jump points, just truncation. Call it what it is rather than obsfucating "jump points".

Jump points, truncation its just semantic. The whole point of this thread is that players are not informed inside of game of this phenomenon in any way. They thing they get 14.9% increase to something yet they get only 14%.

We still see decimals even if they dont count. We are not told in CP UI that decimals dont matter. And even more, in Morrowind final patch notes, even in developer comments they mention a fractal increase to stats from CP where in reality the fraction of CP bonus would be ignored.

This is what this thread is about, that lack of publicity and any acknowledgement of issue that is on right track to become "Animation Cancelling v.2.0" - lets just call it a creative combat mechanic that adds more depth into fight and theorycrafting.

kalarro · May 2017

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

They aren't jump points, just truncation. Call it what it is rather than obsfucating "jump points".

Jump points, truncation its just semantic. The whole point of this thread is that players are not informed inside of game of this phenomenon in any way. They thing they get 14.9% increase to something yet they get only 14%.

We still see decimals even if they dont count. We are not told in CP UI that decimals dont matter. And even more, in Morrowind final patch notes, even in developer comments they mention a fractal increase to stats from CP where in reality the fraction of CP bonus would be ignored.

This is what this thread is about, that lack of publicity and any acknowledgement of issue that is on right track to become "Animation Cancelling v.2.0" - lets just call it a creative combat mechanic that adds more depth into fight and theorycrafting.

I disagree. If spending a point increases something from 5% to 5.5%, leaving it at 5% is totally wrong.

Your argument would be valid if aftrer some calculations, for example weapon damage+skill+buffs+whatever leaves you at 10,5 dps, and since they dont handle decimals, its 10 dps, thats one thing. But spending a point that says it gives you an increase, and it does nothing, that is a blatant BUG or terrible design choice. Even spending it and sayuing it does nothing woudlnt be so bad but still look terrible. The alternative would be to make it cost several points and grant 1%.

Zyrudin · May 2017

kalarro wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

They aren't jump points, just truncation. Call it what it is rather than obsfucating "jump points".

Jump points, truncation its just semantic. The whole point of this thread is that players are not informed inside of game of this phenomenon in any way. They thing they get 14.9% increase to something yet they get only 14%.

We still see decimals even if they dont count. We are not told in CP UI that decimals dont matter. And even more, in Morrowind final patch notes, even in developer comments they mention a fractal increase to stats from CP where in reality the fraction of CP bonus would be ignored.

This is what this thread is about, that lack of publicity and any acknowledgement of issue that is on right track to become "Animation Cancelling v.2.0" - lets just call it a creative combat mechanic that adds more depth into fight and theorycrafting.

I disagree. If spending a point increases something from 5% to 5.5%, leaving it at 5% is totally wrong.

Your argument would be valid if aftrer some calculations, for example weapon damage+skill+buffs+whatever leaves you at 10,5 dps, and since they dont handle decimals, its 10 dps, thats one thing. But spending a point that says it gives you an increase, and it does nothing, that is a blatant BUG or terrible design choice. Even spending it and sayuing it does nothing woudlnt be so bad but still look terrible. The alternative would be to make it cost several points and grant 1%.

From your argument, I am sorry to say, it looks like you agree, actually.

OmniDo · May 2017

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

You need to stop taking things you read on here like it's a personal attack on your self worth. Often wonder how people like you function when faced with non trivial and non irrelevant *** in life.

Well, many of us shout obscenities and fill with a hulk-equivalent rage at our inability to purge those who embrace mediocrity, inferiority, and overall apathy towards their own laziness.
Be thankful the world isnt currently ruled by our ilk...yet.
Life under our non-trivial and relevant dictates would be a torturous hell for everyone who lived to accept and perpetuate all the aforementioned flaws.

Tonturri · May 2017

So ZOS adding a zero onto a bunch of stuff - stat values for example - a while back so that 'players could more easily see their growth via the CP system' was a bunch of BS?

MarzAttakz · May 2017

Tonturri wrote: »

So ZOS adding a zero onto a bunch of stuff - stat values for example - a while back so that 'players could more easily see their growth via the CP system' was a bunch of BS?

Only after the Morrowind patch...

There are only two possible outcomes from this change:

1) Tooltips will be updated to reflect "jump points, truncation points, integers" - pick the semantics, while they're at it please state the maximum percentage for each node, and the required number of points to achieve the next percentage increase.

2) The integer based calculations will be changed back to floats and things will go back to normal.

I'm fine with scenario 1 as long as they're upfront, soundly justify their alterations and communicate with us.

Asardes · May 2017

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

It's an optimization, as they seem obsessed that champion point calculations were somehow causing all the lag in Cyrodiil, which I thought they had debunked with no champion point tests on live, right? So, what is going on here?

Total chaos due to poor management? Or incredibly poor communication? Or lack of resources? All of the above?

It's as laggy as ever on the CP campaign. Probably because there are more people there.

Gedalya · May 2017

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Misleading players.

If the "jump point" findings are accurate, then the tooltips are inaccurate, therefore misleading to players.

I agree; can we get an official comment on this? @ZOS_GinaBruno, somebody?

Thrasher91604 · May 2017

Zyrudin wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

They aren't jump points, just truncation. Call it what it is rather than obsfucating "jump points".

If 75 points are 14% and 100 points are 15%, with truncation to the lowest integer, all points between 76 and 99 are actually all 14%. So, 75 and 100 are, in reality and mathematically, jump points, due to the truncation you mentioned.

It is the truncation that causes them to be jump points.

Wrong. There is no such thing in mathematics called a "jump point". This is just gamer nerd obsfucation of the correct math term, which is truncation.

Thrasher91604 · May 2017

Asardes wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

It's an optimization, as they seem obsessed that champion point calculations were somehow causing all the lag in Cyrodiil, which I thought they had debunked with no champion point tests on live, right? So, what is going on here?

Total chaos due to poor management? Or incredibly poor communication? Or lack of resources? All of the above?

It's as laggy as ever on the CP campaign. Probably because there are more people there.

And when they did the no CP campaign tests, they said they didn't see any significant performance improvements, so the reason for this truncation or flooring of champion point percentages is what?

Ruze · May 2017

Wait, so my 85 points spread between elemental defender and hardy, for example, are actually only giving me the values as if I only had 75 points spread between them, and I have to get 15 more warrior CP into that constellation before they will actually give the percentages they list? Lame...