Alteration Mastery getting buffed - how about Marksman's Crest?

Solariken · May 2017

From PTS 3.0.0:

Robes of Alteration Mastery: Fixed an issue where this item set was not reducing the cost of Sprint, Bash, or Block.

For the sake of fairness and consistency @Wrobel, can you please apply the Marksman 5% stamina cost reduction to Sprint, Bash, Roll, and Block? Please?

DocFrost72 · May 2017

Interesting. I'd like that too, as this has become my sustain set.

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

Why is this a matter of consistency? Marksman was only ever intended to reduce ability costs. Should Seducer and Worm reduce the costs of everything as well?

Marksman is already a really strong set. I could see it getting small buffs, but not one as significant as this.

DocFrost72 · May 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Why is this a matter of consistency? Marksman was only ever intended to reduce ability costs. Should Seducer and Worm reduce the costs of everything as well?

Marksman is already a really strong set. I could see it getting small buffs, but not one as significant as this.

Actually, I would be totally okay with both those sets reducing the magicka cost for block.

Solariken · May 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Why is this a matter of consistency? Marksman was only ever intended to reduce ability costs. Should Seducer and Worm reduce the costs of everything as well?

Marksman is already a really strong set. I could see it getting small buffs, but not one as significant as this.

How is this not a consistency issue? Yes, Seducer/Worm should reduce the cost of everything that uses magicka (which would basically only result in a buff to frost staff block cost reduction).

CTSCold · May 2017

Why do people want consistency? Wheres the fun in making Stamina and Magicka carbon copies of eachother? Wanting stam morphs of everything or mag dmg versions of evrything is way to homogenizing. Picking a certain playstyle should come with a certain set of pros and cons.

Alteration mastery being mag is a pro of mag and a con of stam.

Proc sets being stam is an (albeit controversial) pro of stam and a con of mag.

Don't fix what isn't broken. Marksman isn't broken. Alteration Mastery was.

Maybe buff Marksman to 8% since it only affects a single skill line but thats it.

Solariken · May 2017

CTSCold wrote: »

Why do people want consistency? Wheres the fun in making Stamina and Magicka carbon copies of eachother? Wanting stam morphs of everything or mag dmg versions of evrything is way to homogenizing. Picking a certain playstyle should come with a certain set of pros and cons.

Alteration mastery being mag is a pro of mag and a con of stam.

Proc sets being stam is an (albeit controversial) pro of stam and a con of mag.

Don't fix what isn't broken. Marksman isn't broken. Alteration Mastery was.

Maybe buff Marksman to 8% since it only affects a single skill line but thats it.

The anti-homogenization argument is not really relevant for these sets - both Alteration Mastery and Marksman tooltips say they reduce the cost of "abilities" yet for some reason Alteration is being buffed to the moon and Marksman is being left out in the cold.

CTSCold · May 2017

Except its not a buff. Its a bug fix.

The difference being one says all abilities and one says stamina abilities.

While i agree that the word abilites (didnt think it was) shouldnt be in the Alteration Mastery tooltip (as sprint, roll, bash and block are not abilities) it is now working as intended (hence the word 'fixed' instead of 'changed') so thats just a clerical error.

So yes (in my oppinion, which could very well be wrong) the anti-homogenization argument applies as your wanting a stam set changed to mirror a mag set in a way it was never intended to. Thereby making the two specs more similar than is necessary for competitivie gameplay between the two.

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Why is this a matter of consistency? Marksman was only ever intended to reduce ability costs. Should Seducer and Worm reduce the costs of everything as well?

Marksman is already a really strong set. I could see it getting small buffs, but not one as significant as this.

How is this not a consistency issue? Yes, Seducer/Worm should reduce the cost of everything that uses magicka (which would basically only result in a buff to frost staff block cost reduction).

Then that means Alteration mastery should only reduce the cost of magicka things too.

Your lines in the sand are arbitrary, and in the case of your buff request for Marksman, completely opinionated and outside ZOS's original design for the set.

Solariken · May 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Why is this a matter of consistency? Marksman was only ever intended to reduce ability costs. Should Seducer and Worm reduce the costs of everything as well?

Marksman is already a really strong set. I could see it getting small buffs, but not one as significant as this.

How is this not a consistency issue? Yes, Seducer/Worm should reduce the cost of everything that uses magicka (which would basically only result in a buff to frost staff block cost reduction).

Then that means Alteration mastery should only reduce the cost of magicka things too.

Your lines in the sand are arbitrary, and in the case of your buff request for Marksman, completely opinionated and outside ZOS's original design for the set.

Sometimes I feel like you are just trying to goad me - Alteration specifically says ALL of your ABILITIES. Therefore it should reduce the cost of all abilities. Marksman says STAMINA abilities. Therefore it should reduce the cost of all STAMINA abilities. In case you didn't notice, roll/block/sprint/break cost stamina.

WhiteMage · May 2017

Iirc, alteration mastery once said it reduced all costs, which is very unique. I don't see a reason for sets that reduce the cost of abilities to extend to everything the way alteration mastery does. This is just a bug fix for alteration mastery, not a buff.

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Why is this a matter of consistency? Marksman was only ever intended to reduce ability costs. Should Seducer and Worm reduce the costs of everything as well?

Marksman is already a really strong set. I could see it getting small buffs, but not one as significant as this.

How is this not a consistency issue? Yes, Seducer/Worm should reduce the cost of everything that uses magicka (which would basically only result in a buff to frost staff block cost reduction).

Then that means Alteration mastery should only reduce the cost of magicka things too.

Your lines in the sand are arbitrary, and in the case of your buff request for Marksman, completely opinionated and outside ZOS's original design for the set.

Sometimes I feel like you are just trying to goad me - Alteration specifically says ALL of your ABILITIES. Therefore it should reduce the cost of all abilities. Marksman says STAMINA abilities. Therefore it should reduce the cost of all STAMINA abilities. In case you didn't notice, roll/block/sprint/break cost stamina.

Those aren't abilities though, in the technical meaning of the word. Abilities go on your bars.

WhiteMage wrote: »

Iirc, alteration mastery once said it reduced all costs, which is very unique. I don't see a reason for sets that reduce the cost of abilities to extend to everything the way alteration mastery does. This is just a bug fix for alteration mastery, not a buff.

^

Solariken · May 2017

WhiteMage wrote: »

Iirc, alteration mastery once said it reduced all costs, which is very unique. I don't see a reason for sets that reduce the cost of abilities to extend to everything the way alteration mastery does. This is just a bug fix for alteration mastery, not a buff.

Nope, Alteration verbatim from Live server: "Reduces the cost of all your abilities by 6%"

Versus Marksman: Reduces the cost of your Stamina abilities by 5% and increases the damage of your Bow abilities against Players by 8%

You guys are deliberately trying to make this muddy. Abilities are not just the skills on your bar, they are all actions you perform which have a cost.

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

Solariken wrote: »

WhiteMage wrote: »

Iirc, alteration mastery once said it reduced all costs, which is very unique. I don't see a reason for sets that reduce the cost of abilities to extend to everything the way alteration mastery does. This is just a bug fix for alteration mastery, not a buff.

Nope, Alteration verbatim from Live server: "Reduces the cost of all your abilities by 6%"

Versus Marksman: Reduces the cost of your Stamina abilities by 5% and increases the damage of your Bow abilities against Players by 8%

You guys are deliberately trying to make this muddy. Abilities are not just the skills on your bar, they are all actions you perform which have a cost.

He means its wording used to be different and should be changed back.

To actually maintain consistency, either Alteration Mastery should not use the word "abilities," or the phrase "basic abilities" should be amended into Marksman, Seducer, Worm Cult, and other such sets. The former would be how the game's vocabulary has worked since ever. The latter would be a new vocabulary to support the change ZOS made to Alteration Mastery's wording last patch.

It read like this before:

Feanor · May 2017

Don't say consistency when you simply mean buff Stamina.

Chilly-McFreeze · May 2017

Sure think, if you remove the damage bonus from marksman.

Sugaroverdose · May 2017

Solariken wrote: »

From PTS 3.0.0:

Robes of Alteration Mastery: Fixed an issue where this item set was not reducing the cost of Sprint, Bash, or Block.

For the sake of fairness and consistency @Wrobel, can you please apply the Marksman 5% stamina cost reduction to Sprint, Bash, Roll, and Block? Please?

It's not buffed, but fixed, alteration mastery description tells that it reduces all costs while stamina cost of abilities is only about castable stuff

Solariken · May 2017

I am honestly surprised at the doublethink from many of you guys on this issue. The Alteration change isn't simply a bug fix - ZOS either straight forgot to include the non-bar ability costs OR never intended it and later decided to buff the crap out of it. My money is on the latter.

Both tooltips currently use the word "abilities" in a way that should absolutely result in a buff to the scope of Marksman's cost reduction.

Juhasow · May 2017

Solariken wrote: »

From PTS 3.0.0:

Robes of Alteration Mastery: Fixed an issue where this item set was not reducing the cost of Sprint, Bash, or Block.

For the sake of fairness and consistency @Wrobel, can you please apply the Marksman 5% stamina cost reduction to Sprint, Bash, Roll, and Block? Please?

Yes and Alternation Mastery should get 6% more dmg to players then...

And now seriously fixing isnt buffing. It's making something that was not working as intended to work that way. In the past when Alternation Mastery had 4% reductions it was also working with bash , block etc later they increased that to 6% but screwed something in procces.

Chilly-McFreeze · May 2017

Solariken wrote: »

I am honestly surprised at the doublethink from many of you guys on this issue. The Alteration change isn't simply a bug fix - ZOS either straight forgot to include the non-bar ability costs OR never intended it and later decided to buff the crap out of it. My money is on the latter.

Both tooltips currently use the word "abilities" in a way that should absolutely result in a buff to the scope of Marksman's cost reduction.

Even if, for the sake of "balance", should AM also get a damage buff? One reduces the costs of everything, the other reduces the cost of abilities AND adds damage to players. Sounds okay to me.

Solariken · May 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I am honestly surprised at the doublethink from many of you guys on this issue. The Alteration change isn't simply a bug fix - ZOS either straight forgot to include the non-bar ability costs OR never intended it and later decided to buff the crap out of it. My money is on the latter.

Both tooltips currently use the word "abilities" in a way that should absolutely result in a buff to the scope of Marksman's cost reduction.

Even if, for the sake of "balance", should AM also get a damage buff? One reduces the costs of everything, the other reduces the cost of abilities AND adds damage to players. Sounds okay to me.

Not IMO - it would still be balanced if Marksman got the buff because AM reduces the cost of more things and by a greater amount.

Magıc · May 2017

Solariken wrote: »

I am honestly surprised at the doublethink from many of you guys on this issue. The Alteration change isn't simply a bug fix - ZOS either straight forgot to include the non-bar ability costs OR never intended it and later decided to buff the crap out of it. My money is on the latter.

Both tooltips currently use the word "abilities" in a way that should absolutely result in a buff to the scope of Marksman's cost reduction.

I worry about you.

Chilly-McFreeze · May 2017

Solariken wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I am honestly surprised at the doublethink from many of you guys on this issue. The Alteration change isn't simply a bug fix - ZOS either straight forgot to include the non-bar ability costs OR never intended it and later decided to buff the crap out of it. My money is on the latter.

Both tooltips currently use the word "abilities" in a way that should absolutely result in a buff to the scope of Marksman's cost reduction.

Even if, for the sake of "balance", should AM also get a damage buff? One reduces the costs of everything, the other reduces the cost of abilities AND adds damage to players. Sounds okay to me.

Not IMO - it would still be balanced if Marksman got the buff because AM reduces the cost of more things and by a greater amount.

Fair point, but:

AM
- reduces skill costs of magicka abilites by 6%
- reduces skill costs of stam abilities by 6%
- reduces costs of sprint, block, dodge, break free (?) by 6%

MM
- reduces skill costs of stam abilites by 5% (just one percent less than AM)
- boosts dmg of bow abilites by 8%

While I tend to say most mag builds don't use many stam skills and 1% lower costs isn't that much difference, the increased 8% dmg (is that stackable with minor berserk? should be) of one skill line offsets the reduced sprint etc. costs.

But however, there are more important things atm.

Juhasow · May 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I am honestly surprised at the doublethink from many of you guys on this issue. The Alteration change isn't simply a bug fix - ZOS either straight forgot to include the non-bar ability costs OR never intended it and later decided to buff the crap out of it. My money is on the latter.

Both tooltips currently use the word "abilities" in a way that should absolutely result in a buff to the scope of Marksman's cost reduction.

Even if, for the sake of "balance", should AM also get a damage buff? One reduces the costs of everything, the other reduces the cost of abilities AND adds damage to players. Sounds okay to me.

Not IMO - it would still be balanced if Marksman got the buff because AM reduces the cost of more things and by a greater amount.

Fair point, but:

AM
- reduces skill costs of magicka abilites by 6%
- reduces skill costs of stam abilities by 6%
- reduces costs of sprint, block, dodge, break free (?) by 6%

MM
- reduces skill costs of stam abilites by 5% (just one percent less than AM)
- boosts dmg of bow abilites by 8%

While I tend to say most mag builds don't use many stam skills and 1% lower costs isn't that much difference, the increased 8% dmg (is that stackable with minor berserk? should be) of one skill line offsets the reduced sprint etc. costs.

But however, there are more important things atm.

1 correction AM also reducing ultimates costs by 6%

Solariken · May 2017

Juhasow wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I am honestly surprised at the doublethink from many of you guys on this issue. The Alteration change isn't simply a bug fix - ZOS either straight forgot to include the non-bar ability costs OR never intended it and later decided to buff the crap out of it. My money is on the latter.

Both tooltips currently use the word "abilities" in a way that should absolutely result in a buff to the scope of Marksman's cost reduction.

Even if, for the sake of "balance", should AM also get a damage buff? One reduces the costs of everything, the other reduces the cost of abilities AND adds damage to players. Sounds okay to me.

Not IMO - it would still be balanced if Marksman got the buff because AM reduces the cost of more things and by a greater amount.

Fair point, but:

AM
- reduces skill costs of magicka abilites by 6%
- reduces skill costs of stam abilities by 6%
- reduces costs of sprint, block, dodge, break free (?) by 6%

MM
- reduces skill costs of stam abilites by 5% (just one percent less than AM)
- boosts dmg of bow abilites by 8%

While I tend to say most mag builds don't use many stam skills and 1% lower costs isn't that much difference, the increased 8% dmg (is that stackable with minor berserk? should be) of one skill line offsets the reduced sprint etc. costs.

But however, there are more important things atm.

1 correction AM also reducing ultimates costs by 6%

^

I'm calling it now, AM is going to be the new hotness and is going to be the biggest buff (to mSorc and mDk at least) in the entire patch notes.

Chilly-McFreeze · May 2017

Juhasow wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I am honestly surprised at the doublethink from many of you guys on this issue. The Alteration change isn't simply a bug fix - ZOS either straight forgot to include the non-bar ability costs OR never intended it and later decided to buff the crap out of it. My money is on the latter.

Both tooltips currently use the word "abilities" in a way that should absolutely result in a buff to the scope of Marksman's cost reduction.

Even if, for the sake of "balance", should AM also get a damage buff? One reduces the costs of everything, the other reduces the cost of abilities AND adds damage to players. Sounds okay to me.

Not IMO - it would still be balanced if Marksman got the buff because AM reduces the cost of more things and by a greater amount.

Fair point, but:

AM
- reduces skill costs of magicka abilites by 6%
- reduces skill costs of stam abilities by 6%
- reduces costs of sprint, block, dodge, break free (?) by 6%

MM
- reduces skill costs of stam abilites by 5% (just one percent less than AM)
- boosts dmg of bow abilites by 8%

While I tend to say most mag builds don't use many stam skills and 1% lower costs isn't that much difference, the increased 8% dmg (is that stackable with minor berserk? should be) of one skill line offsets the reduced sprint etc. costs.

But however, there are more important things atm.

1 correction AM also reducing ultimates costs by 6%

Ooops, I didn't knew that. Thanks for correction.

DocFrost72 · May 2017

Juhasow wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I am honestly surprised at the doublethink from many of you guys on this issue. The Alteration change isn't simply a bug fix - ZOS either straight forgot to include the non-bar ability costs OR never intended it and later decided to buff the crap out of it. My money is on the latter.

Both tooltips currently use the word "abilities" in a way that should absolutely result in a buff to the scope of Marksman's cost reduction.

Even if, for the sake of "balance", should AM also get a damage buff? One reduces the costs of everything, the other reduces the cost of abilities AND adds damage to players. Sounds okay to me.

Not IMO - it would still be balanced if Marksman got the buff because AM reduces the cost of more things and by a greater amount.

Fair point, but:

AM
- reduces skill costs of magicka abilites by 6%
- reduces skill costs of stam abilities by 6%
- reduces costs of sprint, block, dodge, break free (?) by 6%

MM
- reduces skill costs of stam abilites by 5% (just one percent less than AM)
- boosts dmg of bow abilites by 8%

While I tend to say most mag builds don't use many stam skills and 1% lower costs isn't that much difference, the increased 8% dmg (is that stackable with minor berserk? should be) of one skill line offsets the reduced sprint etc. costs.

But however, there are more important things atm.

1 correction AM also reducing ultimates costs by 6%

^

CTSCold · May 2017

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Can we get the tooltip on Alteration Mastery reverted to it's old wording, now that it actually lowers all costs, so that people stop calling this 'fix' a 'buff'?

Thanks a bunch.

Solariken · May 2017

CTSCold wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Can we get the tooltip on Alteration Mastery reverted to it's old wording, now that it actually lowers all costs, so that people stop calling this 'fix' a 'buff'?

Thanks a bunch.

Either some ZOS coder didn't read his instructions or the set wasn't originally intended to reduce non-bar skills. It's disingenuous for ZOS to say it's a "bug fix" and naive for players to believe this.

CTSCold · May 2017

Before one tamriel it reduced everything. The only nerf was to the cost reduction which used to be 8%. Even after the bug with One Tam it still worked on bash and dodge roll. So how can you say it wasn't designed to do all especially when the original tooltip stated 'all costs' not 'all ability costs' and it worked on everything?

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

Solariken wrote: »

CTSCold wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Can we get the tooltip on Alteration Mastery reverted to it's old wording, now that it actually lowers all costs, so that people stop calling this 'fix' a 'buff'?

Thanks a bunch.

Either some ZOS coder didn't read his instructions or the set wasn't originally intended to reduce non-bar skills. It's disingenuous for ZOS to say it's a "bug fix" and naive for players to believe this.

It was always intended to reduce the costs of everything.

Solariken wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I am honestly surprised at the doublethink from many of you guys on this issue. The Alteration change isn't simply a bug fix - ZOS either straight forgot to include the non-bar ability costs OR never intended it and later decided to buff the crap out of it. My money is on the latter.

Both tooltips currently use the word "abilities" in a way that should absolutely result in a buff to the scope of Marksman's cost reduction.

Even if, for the sake of "balance", should AM also get a damage buff? One reduces the costs of everything, the other reduces the cost of abilities AND adds damage to players. Sounds okay to me.

Not IMO - it would still be balanced if Marksman got the buff because AM reduces the cost of more things and by a greater amount.

Fair point, but:

AM
- reduces skill costs of magicka abilites by 6%
- reduces skill costs of stam abilities by 6%
- reduces costs of sprint, block, dodge, break free (?) by 6%

MM
- reduces skill costs of stam abilites by 5% (just one percent less than AM)
- boosts dmg of bow abilites by 8%

While I tend to say most mag builds don't use many stam skills and 1% lower costs isn't that much difference, the increased 8% dmg (is that stackable with minor berserk? should be) of one skill line offsets the reduced sprint etc. costs.

But however, there are more important things atm.

1 correction AM also reducing ultimates costs by 6%

^

I'm calling it now, AM is going to be the new hotness and is going to be the biggest buff (to mSorc and mDk at least) in the entire patch notes.

This was called weeks ago and died down when people realized there are better options for sustain. That was even before all of the heavy attack buffs, which threaten to leave us with a heavy armor, all damage meta.

The best two sets in the game next patch are Transmutation and Impregnable, with Knight's Slayer as a gloriously broken honorable mention. That's been my call since the start.