Can you not decrease the duration and radius of Anti-Cavalry Caltrops?

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

I use that on my Overload bar on my magicka sorc to stop people from mounting to chase me.

It works really well.

Nerf the damage if you have to -- but not to zero. We need the tag to keep people in combat.

I'd appreciate if PvE buffs didn't nerf functioning PvP mechanics. Thanks.

IxSTALKERxI · May 2017

Yeah don't make this morph less effective at what it does. Works wonders for running a scroll home, or bombing a scroll that is getting escorted by 50 people on mounts.

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Yeah don't make this morph less effective at what it does. Works wonders for running a scroll home, or bombing a scroll that is getting escorted by 50 people on mounts.

That sounds hilarious.

Enemies will run right around an 8 meter radius aoe, though. I can't imagine the new version working very well in such a large fight.

Taleof2Cities · May 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

That sounds hilarious. Enemies will run right around an 8 meter radius aoe, though. I can't imagine the new version working very well in such a large fight.

Not sure if you totally missed why ZOS made the change ... or if you conveniently left that part out of the opening post.

So, I'll give you a free pass and assume you didn't know: Caltrops damage will now stack for multiple players that throw it.. That's why there are incoming changes to the tooltip.

Using Anti-Cavalry Caltrops for a Sorc is certainly inventive. However, I seriously question how often there are situations enemy players are chasing you on mounts. Especially when there are so many other defense skills that can be slotted. Streak and rune prison immediately come to mind ... but there are many more.

And, before you reply saying you have a Stam Sorc and don't want to spend magicka on streak, Stam Sorcs have other defense skills that I would rather slot than that morph of Caltrops.

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

That sounds hilarious. Enemies will run right around an 8 meter radius aoe, though. I can't imagine the new version working very well in such a large fight.

Not sure if you totally missed why ZOS made the change ... or if you conveniently left that part out of the opening post.

So, I'll give you a free pass and assume you didn't know: Caltrops damage will now stack for multiple players that throw it.. That's why there are incoming changes to the tooltip.

Using Anti-Cavalry Caltrops for a Sorc is certainly inventive. However, I seriously question how often there are situations enemy players are chasing you on mounts. Especially when there are so many other defense skills that can be slotted. Streak and rune prison immediately come to mind ... but there are many more.

Well you clearly did miss why ZOS made the Caltrops changes.

The tooltip changes are not caused by ZOS allowing caltrops to stack. The tooltip changes and stacking are all parallel changes caused by ZOS wanting Caltrops to be an effective stamina PvE dps ability.

Players chase me on mounts all the time. Several times every night I play, in fact. It's been a problem for me and many others ever since ZOS decreased the time needed to leave combat (a change which I strongly support). If you find your enemies growing in numbers and try to escape, they will mount up and chase you down. That's how it works these days.

I adapted on my sorc by slotting Anti-Cavalry Caltrops on my Overload bar. The large aoe forces them to either run though it or ride out of their way to avoid it. If they run through it, they are forced to dismount and put in combat by the damage ticks. If they run around it, I gain time to escape. I especially love positioning my trops beside buildings and rocks to force them even more out of the way.

I use Rune Prison as well, but that ability does nothing in that situation. Literally nothing.

I use Streak. Do you actually think I'm not using Streak? Even with Major Expedition and snare immunity from Rapids, though, Streak is not enough to escape mounted enemies.

This is a massive nerf to a niche PvP ability in order to buff the other morph for PvE use. Anti-Cavalry Caltrops won't even be chosen in PvE. Shameful.

ZOS should limit the PTS changes to Razor Caltrops. That's the best way to go about this.

Pallio · May 2017

Points for creativity, in the request to further nerf stam builds. See that is how these forms should be, use an obscure build using a counter intuitive skill, ask for it to be nerfed. Doesn't cause the normal triggers associated with nerf request, clever and creative, nicely done.

I will try that... As a magic NB, I like to use duel dagger throw for the CC, can you reduce the damage on DW and increase the CC duration please?

OK I am not as good at it, but, I like the premise.

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

Pallio wrote: »

Points for creativity, in the request to further nerf stam builds. See that is how these forms should be, use an obscure build using a counter intuitive skill, ask for it to be nerfed. Doesn't cause the normal triggers associated with nerf request, clever and creative, nicely done.

I will try that... As a magic NB, I like to use duel dagger throw for the CC, can you reduce the damage on DW and increase the CC duration please?

OK I am not as good at it, but, I like the premise.

What am I asking to nerf exactly? Razor Caltrops is the new "PvE" morph, and I said I'm not asking for any revisions to its PTS changes. I'm asking for the other morph to be unchanged from live, where it performs its function nicely. The PTS changes will reduce its effectiveness, but it will never be chosen in PvE regardless of changes due to Razor Caltrops doing more damage.

SodanTok · May 2017

What's sad is how stupid the morph is now. Rapidly drains mount stamina if they ride through it? Unless it is keep gate or bridge there is like no reason for any mount to ever ride through with such small radius.
This morph should definitely get back to work as it was working before. Even if that means it wont stack anymore.

GreenSoup2HoT · May 2017

@NightbladeMechanics You really sticking your neck out there with all these balance request threads. Thanks

Just a thought, maybe get power extraction or red diamond some love

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics You really sticking your neck out there with all these balance request threads. Thanks

Just a thought, maybe get power extraction or red diamond some love

It's not sticking your neck out if your ideas are sound and well thought out.

You could make some complex rework to Red Diamond to scale with max health but also be relevant under Battle Spirit at lower health pools, but a more realistic request would be to make it scale with character level like Battle Roar and Adrenaline Rush. That's how ZOS wants to design things these days. Red Diamond would still have to be balanced for Battle Spirit, though.

Power Extraction's problem is twofold:

Stamblades are inferior to all other classes in large group fights, so aoe damage isn't generally sought after in stamblade builds. When aoe damage is desired, Steel Tornado is stronger.
It gives the same buff as Rally. Stamblades have weak healing, so Rally is core to most stamblade builds. I have seen people run heavy armor snb/bow builds using PE, but I've also seen them run Dreugh King Slayer for their buff. I don't consider those builds to be terribly competitive for lack of healing.

In order for Power Extraction to see regular use, it needs to be reworked so that it serves a purpose, even a niche one, better than any other ability.

It could deal additional damage, apply a debuff or dot, or be given an execute component to compete with Steel Tornado's damage. Something as simple as a guaranteed Major or Minor Defile would make it immediately desirable in group fights. You could get fancy and have it apply those minor debuffs that reduce spell and weapon damage -- the ones applied by some poisons -- to enemies and Minor Brutality to you if you damage an enemy. It is Power Extraction after all. That would be interesting.
It could heal for a portion per enemy hit, like Sap Essence, in order to increase stamblade's lacking survivability in large group fight scenarios.
It could apply a little ticking debuff that heals you for a burst amount after you deal X amount of damage to afflicted enemies. That would be cool and let it compete with Rally in smaller scale scenarios as long as you remain able to damage enemies.

Overall, though, Power Extraction is just poor design, wedged between Rally and Steel Tornado with no explicit identity of its own.

My recommendation would be to completely rework the very design of the ability.

It could be another kind of little aoe trap laid on the ground, akin to Manifestation of Terror, which explodes for disease damage and roots or debuffs enemies that walk over it (think Eternal Hunt rune as a class ability, but longer lasting).
It could be an aoe web that tethers nearby enemies together and deals additional damage and roots if they walk outside of the radius from you or each other (think of synergy with Shadow Image > Ambushing back in).
It could be an aoe web that tethers nearby enemies together and deals additional damage if they remain within range of you for X seconds (the opposite, and good for timing with burst combos against single targets as well as groups).

Thoughts or additional ideas?

IxSTALKERxI · May 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Yeah don't make this morph less effective at what it does. Works wonders for running a scroll home, or bombing a scroll that is getting escorted by 50 people on mounts.

That sounds hilarious. Enemies will run right around an 8 meter radius aoe, though. I can't imagine the new version working very well in such a large fight.

Yep it's pretty funny. My best memories are of the wooden bridge east of Fort warden, we waited in stealth as the entire DC faction was mounted and rode across the bridge at full speed into trops at the end and fall of their mounts into a meat grinder of tornado spam.

Ash Milegate is also a good one, if you place trops there ahead of the mounted DC zerg they all ride in and fall off their mounts into a meat grinder, it's always a glorious sight.

But yeah, the radius nerf on that particular morph hurts running the scroll as it's best to keep anti cavalry trops behind you as you run the scroll home to slow down everyone chasing on mounts.

Feanor · May 2017

@NightbladeMechanics

No, please no. Please no more roots and snares. The game is already plagued with an abundance of them. As long as a global root and snare immunity on a cooldown is no thing I don't want to get snared and rooted for every meter my character walks.

Also I generally dislike giving offensive options to defensive mechanics and the other way round. You shouldn't gain extra survivability for higher damage output. As it is everyone is stacking max stat max damage anyway.

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

Feanor wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics

No, please no. Please no more roots and snares. The game is already plagued with an abundance of them. As long as a global root and snare immunity on a cooldown is no thing I don't want to get snared and rooted for every meter my character walks.

Also I generally dislike giving offensive options to defensive mechanics and the other way round. You shouldn't gain extra survivability for higher damage output. As it is everyone is stacking max stat max damage anyway.

Are you replying to my suggestions for Power Extraction? The ones with roots would turn it into a low damage utility ability.

And keep in mind that I also support adding root and snare removal and immunity durations to Boundless Storm, Double Take, and other sources in the game which I've discussed on these forums. My suggestions here would best work in an ecosystem of the game containing multiple of my proposals, as my proposals are all aimed at improving gameplay both compared to live and in the context of each other.

Magıc · May 2017

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

That sounds hilarious. Enemies will run right around an 8 meter radius aoe, though. I can't imagine the new version working very well in such a large fight.

Not sure if you totally missed why ZOS made the change ... or if you conveniently left that part out of the opening post.

So, I'll give you a free pass and assume you didn't know: Caltrops damage will now stack for multiple players that throw it.. That's why there are incoming changes to the tooltip.

Using Anti-Cavalry Caltrops for a Sorc is certainly inventive. However, I seriously question how often there are situations enemy players are chasing you on mounts. Especially when there are so many other defense skills that can be slotted. Streak and rune prison immediately come to mind ... but there are many more.

And, before you reply saying you have a Stam Sorc and don't want to spend magicka on streak, Stam Sorcs have other defense skills that I would rather slot than that morph of Caltrops.

Play on PC EU and you get chased by zergs on mounts every 10-15 minutes. On NA streams, I see them get chased by zergs on mount atleast 1-2 times every hour. Unless your build is built on infinite streaking, you're not getting away. They have detect pots, rapids the lot. The only counter is anti cavalry caltrops or having a friend with maneuver and hoping you get out of combat long enough to mount up and start running back to your closest keep/outpost.

Drummerx04 · May 2017

Magıc wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

That sounds hilarious. Enemies will run right around an 8 meter radius aoe, though. I can't imagine the new version working very well in such a large fight.

Not sure if you totally missed why ZOS made the change ... or if you conveniently left that part out of the opening post.

So, I'll give you a free pass and assume you didn't know: Caltrops damage will now stack for multiple players that throw it.. That's why there are incoming changes to the tooltip.

Using Anti-Cavalry Caltrops for a Sorc is certainly inventive. However, I seriously question how often there are situations enemy players are chasing you on mounts. Especially when there are so many other defense skills that can be slotted. Streak and rune prison immediately come to mind ... but there are many more.

And, before you reply saying you have a Stam Sorc and don't want to spend magicka on streak, Stam Sorcs have other defense skills that I would rather slot than that morph of Caltrops.

Play on PC EU and you get chased by zergs on mounts every 10-15 minutes. On NA streams, I see them get chased by zergs on mount atleast 1-2 times every hour. Unless your build is built on infinite streaking, you're not getting away. They have detect pots, rapids the lot. The only counter is anti cavalry caltrops or having a friend with maneuver and hoping you get out of combat long enough to mount up and start running back to your closest keep/outpost.

Same, the few forays I made into solo pvp in the last month, I probably got chased down on mount by at least two players at least once per hour.

CavalryPK · May 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I use that on my Overload bar on my magicka sorc to stop people from mounting to chase me.

It works really well.

Nerf the damage if you have to -- but not to zero. We need the tag to keep people in combat.

I'd appreciate if PvE buffs didn't nerf functioning PvP mechanics. Thanks.

When I read the Title.... took me a second to process that it is not about me... lol

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

CavalryPK wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I use that on my Overload bar on my magicka sorc to stop people from mounting to chase me.

It works really well.

Nerf the damage if you have to -- but not to zero. We need the tag to keep people in combat.

I'd appreciate if PvE buffs didn't nerf functioning PvP mechanics. Thanks.

When I read the Title.... took me a second to process that it is not about me... lol