Seriously, this skill is just stupid right now.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I spam Dark Conversion in melee range of magicka opponents when I have cc immunity all the time. If they bash, I use repeated casts to drain their stamina for a kill. If they don't bash, then I get free magicka return and go unpunished. That is very much not the intended use of the ability. Lol

What are your thoughts on this other perspective?

In my opinion, any gameplay involving "spam" can be countered. I get it. You can force him to drain his stamina. But, if your opponent choose to keep damaging you, you'll take "non-mitigated" damage (Not really, but you see my point, you're not blocking). Is that a real problem? Probably not, you have shields, and magicka returns from Dark Conversion. However, this ability costs stamina, and so do block and roll dodge. If your opponent can put enough pressure, you'll eventually run out of stamina and not be able to break free from a decisive CC, provided that you're against a decent player. But if it's not the case, you could win easily even without this specific ability.

Maybe you've already figured out a way to get CC immunity often enough and a good stamina regen. But if you did so, you're weaker on an other aspect of your build.

That's not free magicka as you say. You have to spend stamina, not a huge amount, but that's a significant cost for a magicka build.

I'm not really a pvp player. I'm quite decent. But inexperienced. I will really dive into this with the battlegrounds, as I have all the skill points but those from pvp rank However, with the little experience I have. I figured out that some magicka build had infinite magicka. Even without dark deal. And against magicka builds with shields, regen and heals (High rank players relatively skilled) I was only able to finish them off when they ran out of stamina. As long as your opponent is able to sustain the fight and keep pressure and CC on you, you can dark deal as much as you want, you can't have infinite pools of both ressources. (Or you can, but will you be able to deal enough damage?)

I just realized i didn't considered the heal in the equation. We'll just neglect it then.

Elwendryll wrote: »

Dark deal is a trade, an exchange.
If you interrupt a trade, you keep your first item, and you don't get the new one. The sorcerer changes his magicka in stamina/health with dark deal, but if he doesn't gain any stamina/health, there isn't any magicka to spend.

All the channeled abilities expose the casters as they can't block. That's risk vs reward. If they manage to get safe using LoS, sorry, you've been outplayed. That's not as if they were able to instantly regen their resources while damaging you, they have to take a step back. Each class has OP defining abilities, and this one actually has efficient counters.

Im sorry but ive had stamina sorcs waving their hand in my face with nothing i can do to stop them because of immovable pots. Also the exchange rate is wrong, its not 1:1, its more like 1:2 (health and stamina/magicka).

From a gameplay point of view, having counter play is good. Good Sorc's will use streak and break distance. Bad sorcs will get interrupted.

Seriously, can we add some real nerfs to Dark Deal please. It's really not okay for every other class in the game to lose massive parts of their resource management, yet the most overperforming class's resource management remains untouched.

The cast time changes are irrelevant because:
1. Any Sorc is just going to streak away first. Nobody blindly uses DD while being hit.
2. Getting interrupted (which should be punished hard) really does not punish you at all. If anything it is much more risky for the attacker as they have to waste stamina to bash.


I don't get why this skill even gets a heal on it. I don't get why the hell it returns so much resources (seriously you get more than 24 seconds of Betty on the Warden).

At the very least, because you refuse to actually nerf this class, just make it so getting interrupted gets punished.

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Elwendryll wrote: »

Dark deal is a trade, an exchange.
If you interrupt a trade, you keep your first item, and you don't get the new one. The sorcerer changes his magicka in stamina/health with dark deal, but if he doesn't gain any stamina/health, there isn't any magicka to spend.

All the channeled abilities expose the casters as they can't block. That's risk vs reward. If they manage to get safe using LoS, sorry, you've been outplayed. That's not as if they were able to instantly regen their resources while damaging you, they have to take a step back. Each class has OP defining abilities, and this one actually has efficient counters.

Im sorry but ive had stamina sorcs waving their hand in my face with nothing i can do to stop them because of immovable pots. Also the exchange rate is wrong, its not 1:1, its more like 1:2 (health and stamina/magicka).

From a gameplay point of view, having counter play is good. Good Sorc's will use streak and break distance. Bad sorcs will get interrupted.

You can bash, crushing shock, and venom arrow people with cc immunity, including from immov pots.

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Elwendryll wrote: »

Dark deal is a trade, an exchange.
If you interrupt a trade, you keep your first item, and you don't get the new one. The sorcerer changes his magicka in stamina/health with dark deal, but if he doesn't gain any stamina/health, there isn't any magicka to spend.

All the channeled abilities expose the casters as they can't block. That's risk vs reward. If they manage to get safe using LoS, sorry, you've been outplayed. That's not as if they were able to instantly regen their resources while damaging you, they have to take a step back. Each class has OP defining abilities, and this one actually has efficient counters.

Im sorry but ive had stamina sorcs waving their hand in my face with nothing i can do to stop them because of immovable pots. Also the exchange rate is wrong, its not 1:1, its more like 1:2 (health and stamina/magicka).

From a gameplay point of view, having counter play is good. Good Sorc's will use streak and break distance. Bad sorcs will get interrupted.

You can bash, crushing shock, and venom arrow people with cc immunity, including from immov pots.

Good to know. Doesn't stop me from draining all my stamina trying to bash dark deal while the sorc has no drawbacks being interrupted over and over.

Yup.

KingJ wrote: »

Are Sorcs really this scared of being balanced?Are you guys really defending this?Like come on.

Yes we are scared of being "balanced" either by Wrobel or the forum community. You can ask non permablock DKs specifically how that will turn out. No thank you, we'd rather have a tiny bit of class distinction and some fun left when we log in to our Sorcs. It was not long ago that Sorcs were close to extinct in Cyro, when the stam overlords ruled everything. We don't want that again. Is that so hard to get at all? Fine, tweak any skill you like if you think it's the reason Sorc is OP. All you gonna accomplish is the bad Sorcs hopping to the next FOTM and the good ones still wrecking you. If that's worth wrecking the class - by all means go ahead.

@BohnT

It's not at all about what Sorcs can stand. It's what the rest of the "nerf plox" movement will find satisfying. Remember the threads when shield duration got changed? There were countless suggestions by Sorcs how to do it and get a more acceptable result. Didn't stop Wrobel from essentially force everyone into stacking even more than before. That's what gonna happen here too. Sorcs who love their class and main it will adapt to changes, sure. But if I was confident the dev in charge for changes like these had a clue and was open to reasonable arguments, I'd certainly not try to defend what Sorcs have left with every claw.

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

You guys are really funny. What are the names of those uber-stamsorcs on EU dark dealing their heart out without any competent player ever having a chance to interupt them? I really want to meet them, since I can`t think of a single sorc on EU (whos not exploting goblin) whos DD i cannot reliably bash.

You guys do realize DD is on a fine line to just not be used anymore, right? Heavy attacks gonna restore so much ressources and cant be interrupted. Why would I bring myself into danger of dying under pressure by using a DD that is as crippled as some of you suggest when I can just pop a vigor and heavy armor powered heavy attack until my stam bar is full?

2 out of 3 (Mag)sorcs who I consider to have mastered their setup are already building their morrowind setups without DD next patch, because the 0.2s change actually makes a difference in gameplay and is, indeed, easier to bash.

Do you guys even ask yourself those questions when talking about "bigger" pictures? I was completely fine with unbuffed stamsorc 2 years ago, I will be fine even if you delete dark deal from the game without replacement. But I think my points are valid. Who of you complainers actually plays a stamsorc on a high level and is willing to duel me to show me the entire imbalance next week In comparison to heavy attacks?

Best regards

Heh, yeah, I was just gonna say that I saw Hexy's new build - which used to rely on dark exchange, but has now dropped it, while trying to achieve a like-for-like build.

I can't see myself using it either unless on the overload bar - which means out of combat use only.

BohnT wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

You guys are really funny. What are the names of those uber-stamsorcs on EU dark dealing their heart out without any competent player ever having a chance to interupt them? I really want to meet them, since I can`t think of a single sorc on EU (whos not exploting goblin) whos DD i cannot reliably bash.

You guys do realize DD is on a fine line to just not be used anymore, right? Heavy attacks gonna restore so much ressources and cant be interrupted. Why would I bring myself into danger of dying under pressure by using a DD that is as crippled as some of you suggest when I can just pop a vigor and heavy armor powered heavy attack until my stam bar is full?

2 out of 3 (Mag)sorcs who I consider to have mastered their setup are already building their morrowind setups without DD next patch, because the 0.2s change actually makes a difference in gameplay and is, indeed, easier to bash.

Do you guys even ask yourself those questions when talking about "bigger" pictures? I was completely fine with unbuffed stamsorc 2 years ago, I will be fine even if you delete dark deal from the game without replacement. But I think my points are valid. Who of you complainers actually plays a stamsorc on a high level and is willing to duel me to show me the entire imbalance next week In comparison to heavy attacks?

Best regards

There are some like Donatoo, Hromis but most of them run in a zerg so the individual skill of a sorc is hard to measure.
The problem with DD is that even if you interrupt the sorc that he loses nothing. The problem is you have to be good to bash someone but there is not much of a benefit if you bash them while the sorc loses nothing but some time. And we haven't considered dodge cancel yet.
You still need an enemy for heavy attacks but none for DD which also gives you a huge heal. There is a problem there

I meet both of em often in open world cyro. Ask both of those, if they think they can out dark deal me in a duel. I'm pretty sure, they will say "nope".

You dont DD for the heal, why would you ever do that when you can just pop a vigor with surge giving a stable 2k pvp hps foundation, heck, most even have rally, too. You sound like someone who doesn't understand the dynamics of when and where to use DD. Point is, the heal is a "nice to have", not something you use the skill for (since it has the potential to be counterplayed). People use DD for the ressource return.

So, again, why would I bring myself in danger using DD, when I can use a heavy attack which also deals dmg, cannot beinterrupted, has the potential to proc enchants and armor bonuses, ALSO has a high probability to RETURN HP due to crit surge and most importantly doessnt leave the opponent unpressured? All that while keeping me infight to proc constitution bonuses, whereas going LOS for DD would prolly make me miss a tick.

My point still stands. Not to convince you or other guys on the forums. But because that's exactly what I and many other sorcs will be asking themselves: Why not just heavy attack?

Regards

Kalante wrote: »

make shields critible too.

Yes, if I could increase the size of my ward by 50% with a crit, that would be great... Thanks for suggesting it!

STEVIL wrote: »

i have been noted as not being a nerf sorc fanatic, far from it, but IMO...
dark deal and all its flavors should:
1 - on interrupt lose the feeder, if other casting times do. Should not be an exception.
2 - have a 4s window where after a successful cast EITHER cost is increased or gains reduced*. too much gained from a 3s window of opportunity for 2 casts right now IMO.

that is even while acknowledging that it is already a sustain vs dps trade-off in its own right, unlike many passive sustains.

*personally, i think the 4s windows on dodge roll and streak should also be "reduced gains" not increased costs but that is me. let quick succession dodges drop the odds to 50/50 not 1005 and let quick repeat streak cover half the distance... for example. Reduce spamming that trick itself not everything else by hitting costs.

Again, why would anyone use that version of DD, if they can get similar effects with heavy attacks while getting BUFFS (resto: major mending, destro: mag on kill + element specifics, 2h: empowered, ...), multiple other gameplay benefits (as mentioned a few posts above) and doesnt make me as vulnerable?

Please tell me, you have thought that through from to pov of a user, because what you just posted was just a bunch of ignorance instead of actually considering trade-offs. A DD user will NEVER compare it to the choices other classes have when thinking about choosing the skill, he will think whether or not it offers benefits in comparison to other ressource restore mechanics available to him.

There is no reason to ever use the skill you just suggested, when looking at PTS heavy attacks.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

You guys are really funny. What are the names of those uber-stamsorcs on EU dark dealing their heart out without any competent player ever having a chance to interupt them? I really want to meet them, since I can`t think of a single sorc on EU (whos not exploting goblin) whos DD i cannot reliably bash.

You guys do realize DD is on a fine line to just not be used anymore, right? Heavy attacks gonna restore so much ressources and cant be interrupted. Why would I bring myself into danger of dying under pressure by using a DD that is as crippled as some of you suggest when I can just pop a vigor and heavy armor powered heavy attack until my stam bar is full?

2 out of 3 (Mag)sorcs who I consider to have mastered their setup are already building their morrowind setups without DD next patch, because the 0.2s change actually makes a difference in gameplay and is, indeed, easier to bash.

Do you guys even ask yourself those questions when talking about "bigger" pictures? I was completely fine with unbuffed stamsorc 2 years ago, I will be fine even if you delete dark deal from the game without replacement. But I think my points are valid. Who of you complainers actually plays a stamsorc on a high level and is willing to duel me to show me the entire imbalance next week In comparison to heavy attacks?

Best regards

If they continue buffing heavy attacks, then yes, those will become meta, and yes, stam sorcs and other classes will eliminate other sources of sustain from their builds in favor of heavies. Congratulations, you understand how meta shifting works.

But things come around and go around. Even if Dark Exchange falls out of the meta for stam sorcs next patch, if and when ZOS nerfs heavy attacks or further constricts sustain or in any other way shifts the meta in certain ways, Dark Exchange could rise right back to its current prominence, which it's held since Dark Brotherhood patch a year ago. The ability will be no less powerful and one-sided next patch. It may just be unnecessary if ZOS buffs heavies enough. Dark Exchange still needs attention, and has needed it for four patches now.

Also magicka sorcs have never relied on Dark Exchange.

Dark Exchange does not require a target to fire at, especially not a melee one like many heavy attacks. It will have those differences.

The goblin costume does not conceal the crystals formed under the player's feet by the Dark Exchange animation. The goblin costume only prevents Dark Exchange from being bashed by potatoes.

And good players will adapt to anything. That doesn't mean mechanics cannot be overpowered or lack counterplay. You would have been able to perform well on your stam sorc through the last four patches without Dark Deal, but did you not perform better with it? Your personal competence with a class or ability is no bar by which to judge its state of balance.

Your argument here is that heavy attacks are going to be op, not that Dark Exchange is balanced. Distinguish the two.

Honestly. I also have no issue with stamsorcs using dark deal on the pts with nerfed heavy armor.
I´ve never had issues with magsorcs or medium armor stamsorcs using dark deal because on those builds getting interrupted only once usually results in them dying (excluding pirate+tripplestack - but those don´t have enough dmg to be threatening in return).

I still can´t decide if darkdeal will be worth it at all for magsorc next patch - simply because you will 100% loose it´s sustain when pressured.
But then i already play without darkdeal on live most of the time because i find the setup to be lacking a skillslot. It´s not that good imo.

@NightbladeMechanics

Your last comment prompted me to look up the history of Dark Exchange. So I fired up the forum search. The skill has had 3 changes so far:

1.6.5, March 2015

Dark Exchange
It is now possible to move while channeling all ranks and morphs of Dark Exchange.
Dark Deal (morph): This ability now converts magicka into health and stamina.

2.3.5, March 2016

Dark Exchange: Increased the cost of this ability and its morphs by 20%, but they now return 20% more Health, Magicka, or Stamina.

2.4.5, May 2016

Dark Exchange: Increased the amount of resources gained from this ability and its morphs: Health by 100%, Stamina and Magicka by 75%.

1.6.5 was the change that brought Dark Exchange for stam Sorcs and removed one thing that was always a hindrance in using it, as not being able to move is a death sentence in Cyrodiil.

Almost exactly after a year and the fact that nobody used it because the cast time and the low return still made it impractical, the skill got its first slight buff.

It was still not widely used, and then @Wrobel came in and said he wanted it to be exciting. You see: It was always interruptible and it never charged the cost on interrupt. Even a 20% buff didn't prompt people to use it. It was only after the return was practically doubled that players began using it.

Thus it's very safe to say that Dark Exchange is indeed on the verge of being unused again. Thanks @Mojomonkeyman for your posts, they reflect my opinion on this exactly.