Do not let the naysayers get you down. - There is Hope.

Dubhliam · May 2017

Galwylin wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Finally we will have great build diversity, finally you will be able to "play the way you want" and still have a viable build.

I don't think sets will change greatly. Maybe in your secondary set. Biggest help will be the CP changes so you can spread points. But mobs will not change. And many still will become more dangerous the longer the fight goes. Which it will. Those aren't changing. If that was different, then you can find ways to simply outlast them. I hope. Sets aren't going to radically change so all junk sets will no longer be junk sets. If they only changed the CPs, diversity would happen today. But you still can't get past crap abilities. So we'll still have those. There are still things holding back hybrids. Mainly how damage is calculated. If you don't stack main resource, your damage is decreases. That could use some adjustment if diversity is the goal. I don't think that looks to be the case. I don't believe diversity is this patch's goal. I can't say what the goal is because presently, it just seems to want to make fights harder and longer. And no idea why but apparently many players are looking forward to them. And many aren't. Go figure.

Well exactly, people will mix and match sets more now. Of course you will have a damage set if you are speccing for a DD role, but I think a lot of people will choose a sustain set for the second set now.
So far, everybody was going two damage set setups.

Now you will have a choice to swap some jewelry enchantments for regen, to be able to keep two damage sets, or you can slot one sustain set and slap on damage enchantments.

Zardayne · May 2017

Knowledge wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

You posted examples of successes, that doesn't negate the other games that failed. Not saying eso will fail because of this, but that logic makes no sense.

There are people that agree and disagree with pretty much any game changing expansion in most any mmo. Some will fail and some will succeed.

One games success does not mean other games will see the same.

We will see who will be right and who will be wrong in the coming months. At that juncture, we should return to this thread to see who was right and who was wrong.

In recent memory no expansion has "killed a game". The closest example is StarWars: Galaxies NGE. That's one game out of how many?

I will add Trials of Atlantis killed Daoc..I know I was there. Other than that I agree with what you said.

Balamoor · May 2017

Zardayne wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

You posted examples of successes, that doesn't negate the other games that failed. Not saying eso will fail because of this, but that logic makes no sense.

There are people that agree and disagree with pretty much any game changing expansion in most any mmo. Some will fail and some will succeed.

One games success does not mean other games will see the same.

We will see who will be right and who will be wrong in the coming months. At that juncture, we should return to this thread to see who was right and who was wrong.

In recent memory no expansion has "killed a game". The closest example is StarWars: Galaxies NGE. That's one game out of how many?

I will add Trials of Atlantis killed Daoc..I know I was there. Other than that I agree with what you said.

Cacamas, ToA caused some folks to leave New Frontiers and catacombs brought a good portion of them back and the game isn't dead you know a good many people still play.

Dubhliam · May 2017

Just take a look at THIS one example of a whine thread (out of many) that was made on the forum when the game was about to be nerfed in a "big" way.

MaximusDargus wrote: »

..., they relentlessly hunt down anything that could help players to fight against this unjustified nerf:

You see... people are afraid of change by default.
Now, if that change is perceived as negative, players will unleash their anger and dissatisfaction on the forum.
And they will become frustrated all the while because their concerns aren't acknowledged by the devs.

In reality, these "negative" changes are necessary for the long term health of the game, and people will adjust in a very short period.

In the end, I'll just leave you with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPc-VEqBPHI

Uriel_Nocturne · May 2017

Personally? I'm researching other MMORPG's to play.

Got back into LotRO, Neverwinter, EQ2, FFXIV, and a couple of others. They're good MMO's. Not great, but good. They definitely have more stability in their development directions then ESO does.

Kind of interested in Ashes of Creation, but they're not even at the "Alpha test" stage yet.

So, when everything goes "south" once Morrowind releases (because after a significant amount of time crawling through the PTS, South is the only direction this game is going...), I'll probably stick to my core MMO's.

I've been playing MMORPG's for too many decades to not notice when a game is turning for the worse. I just didn't think it would come at the three-year mark for ESO.

But; MMO's come and MMO's go. Such is the nature of the industry. There's too many good MMO's on the market to get hung up on just one that doesn't have any kind of direction to the updates.

Knowledge · May 2017

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Personally? I'm researching other MMORPG's to play.

Got back into LotRO, Neverwinter, EQ2, FFXIV, and a couple of others. They're good MMO's. Not great, but good. They definitely have more stability in their development directions then ESO does.

Kind of interested in Ashes of Creation, but they're not even at the "Alpha test" stage yet.

So, when everything goes "south" once Morrowind releases (because after a significant amount of time crawling through the PTS, South is the only direction this game is going...), I'll probably stick to my core MMO's.

I've been playing MMORPG's for too many decades to not notice when a game is turning for the worse. I just didn't think it would come at the three-year mark for ESO.

But; MMO's come and MMO's go. Such is the nature of the industry. There's too many good MMO's on the market to get hung up on just one that doesn't have any kind of direction to the updates.

Ashes of Creation is a very ambitious MMORPG. It does sound great on paper but what people fail to realize is that using Unreal 4 will not be a walk in the park. Even Unreal have stated Unreal netcode is more catered to small multiplayer games and as such we've seen many shortcomings in MMOs that utilized Unreal engines in the past.

Unreal 3 in TERA had and still has massive optimization issues and UI problems. Lineage 2 suffered from tons of issues as well.

Unreal 4 is just enhancements upon the older engines and better textures. It's going to carry the same MMO-specific problems.

Lastly, it seems everyone keeps getting on the hype train for any MMO that hits kickstarter with the words " PVP, Open World, not Pay to Win ". Yet none of these games have come to fruition.

Long story short, don't buy the cake until they make it.

Galwylin · May 2017

We all know why people resist change. Its because change often is worst. When things improve, its a slow process. This patch is making sweeping changes to how the game is played currently. We really believe that in three years they figured it out and here is the perfect game? And developers are so slow to pull things back or don't. Just like with ganking. Did it just one day become terrible or was it those sets being introduced. And what's getting nerf? Not the sets. See, that's why people dislike change because even if its a bad change, they'll end up fixing the wrong thing. I can't think of one game that has done such a revision to how its played and it turned out well.

Plus I remember EverQuest monks. That took years to finally undo some of the damage done. I'm not sure I care to wait years for ZOS to think maybe this was a bad idea. Its an experiment and even they don't seem to know exactly what the outcome will be. You certainly can't get any specifics from them on exactly how they think it should be played. All we know is people have infinite sustain. But I bet each of us know, or are, those people that can't sustain worth crap. And this is going to help them?

What gets me is people complaining the game is too easy. So the solution is to make the same thing you've been doing harder? How on earth is that even interesting much less fun. !00 runs of the same dungeon only this time you may run out of magicka or stamina. Oh, the tension. I can't help but wonder what new content or new systems did we not get so they could make this revision. I'm sort of looking forward to EQ's new familiars they're adding and all ESO got me is heavy attacks. I already use heavy attacks. I suppose I should be fine but something tells me, no. No one's going to be fine. Because that's not the purpose of the patch. Too many "this will be a buff unless" disclaimers attached to it.

Uriel_Nocturne · May 2017

Knowledge wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Personally? I'm researching other MMORPG's to play.

Got back into LotRO, Neverwinter, EQ2, FFXIV, and a couple of others. They're good MMO's. Not great, but good. They definitely have more stability in their development directions then ESO does.

Kind of interested in Ashes of Creation, but they're not even at the "Alpha test" stage yet.

So, when everything goes "south" once Morrowind releases (because after a significant amount of time crawling through the PTS, South is the only direction this game is going...), I'll probably stick to my core MMO's.

I've been playing MMORPG's for too many decades to not notice when a game is turning for the worse. I just didn't think it would come at the three-year mark for ESO.

But; MMO's come and MMO's go. Such is the nature of the industry. There's too many good MMO's on the market to get hung up on just one that doesn't have any kind of direction to the updates.

Ashes of Creation is a very ambitious MMORPG. It does sound great on paper but what people fail to realize is that using Unreal 4 will not be a walk in the park. Even Unreal have stated Unreal netcode is more catered to small multiplayer games and as such we've seen many shortcomings in MMOs that utilized Unreal engines in the past.

Unreal 3 in TERA had and still has massive optimization issues and UI problems. Lineage 2 suffered from tons of issues as well.

Unreal 4 is just enhancements upon the older engines and better textures. It's going to carry the same MMO-specific problems.

Lastly, it seems everyone keeps getting on the hype train for any MMO that hits kickstarter with the words " PVP, Open World, not Pay to Win ". Yet none of these games have come to fruition.

Long story short, don't buy the cake until they make it.

I said I was interested. I never said I was funding the Kickstarter myself.

I'm well aware of the limitations/issues with using the Unreal Engine for an MMO, even the AoC Devs acknowledge that in their ongoing messages. But they also say that since they're aware of those issues, they're working to overcome them while the game is still in it's pre-Alpha stage.

But the concept of the game intrigues me, the premise that Players build everything in the game (as well as lay siege to and destroy/conquer everything as well) is a great idea, and I'm intrigued to see if they can make it a reality.

Tera on the other hand, I agree with your assessment that it has many optimization issues. But it is a fairly pretty MMO as well, and the game play is like a mixture of DMC and a traditional High-Fantasy MMO. Again; this is a game that intrigues me, but hasn't sold me on it yet, and it's been running for three years already.

I've been playing MMORPG's for far too long for your brash generalization over what MMO's are in development or what they choose to run as a base engine or not. You mention a "hype train", but fail to even mention that a lot of MMO gamers "invest in" or more commonly simply "check out" a new "in-production" MMO because the concept intrigues. You seem to be of the opinion that; if anyone decides to check out a promising new MMO, that they must immediately place their intelligence on hold and hop on board the mindless-speculation-hype-train, when most often, the opposite is true.

But until AoC gets a bit further along, and until I get the chance/time/opportunity to sit down in front of my PC to give Tera a try (or if I get picked for the Console Closed Beta for it), I'll stick with my "Core" MMO's. EQ2, FFXIV, Neverwinter (which is actually a pretty decent MMORPG. It's not "great" by any means, but it is still very good), LotRO, and GW2.

And with that stable of MMO's to keep delving into, it would take a pretty mammoth accomplishment of development to drag me away from any one of those.

So yeah, I'm researching other MMO's, and I'm keeping up-to-date on Ashes of Creation, but there's no mindless "hype train" here.

Sabbathius · May 2017

I will just say one thing here. I see lots of folks using "people are afraid of change" argument. And to a degree, this is true. But with a good developer, there's a certain amount of trust involved. That is, with a good developer you KNOW they did their homework, crunched the numbers, ran the sims and then play-tested the absolute crap out of the change before putting it on PTS. And that, even if you don't see how, you can trust them that the change is for the better.

Well, this trust, or faith, just doesn't exist here. Because time and time again they keep doing dumb stuff. Remember Homestead's original patch notes? Where DK heal was for 33% of missing magicka? That was nonsense. It made no logical sense, in any application. Both best-case and worst-case scenarios for this proposed ability were absolutely awful. We did get them to change their minds about it, but the faith in their process and abilities took a major hit from that. Fast-forward to Morrowind PTS, and see them do the exact same nonsense with Siphoning Strikes. The first version they pushed out was mathematically unsound.

It's not that people are afraid of change. We're afraid of stupid change. We're even more afraid of a massive amount of stupid changes, piled together into a single update, which also introduces a new gameplay style (battlegrounds), all at the same time. Even the most basic science class should have taught them to control their variables.

Look, I'm not denying that sustain had to be looked at. But the way they did it, and the timeframe they did it in, can't result in anything good. In case you didn't notice, patch notes from earlier this week are full of last-minute band-aid solutions (heavy attack restore goes up 30%) to the problems created by these poorly thought-out changes. And the latest batch of changes (including the Sorc pet nerf we know nothing about yet) will literally go live with the update next week, without any testing at all.

Wrobel made a nice analogy on last ESO Live, that they are balancing the way people play golf. Use a big club to send the ball to the green, and then the putter to get the ball in the hole. Thing is, this only applies if you are a good golfer! If you are a bad golfer, and you whack the ball with all your might with a big club...while facing in the wrong direction...it'll take you quite a while to find the ball, and quite a few more whacks with a big club...while hopefully facing in the right-ish direction...to merely get back to where you were, never mind to actually get the ball on the green. And that's what we're afraid of. And it's not an unreasonable fear, based on ZOS performance in this area so far.

Uriel_Nocturne · May 2017

Sabbathius wrote: »

I will just say one thing here. I see lots of folks using "people are afraid of change" argument. And to a degree, this is true. But with a good developer, there's a certain amount of trust involved. That is, with a good developer you KNOW they did their homework, crunched the numbers, ran the sims and then play-tested the absolute crap out of the change before putting it on PTS. And that, even if you don't see how, you can trust them that the change is for the better.

Well, this trust, or faith, just doesn't exist here. Because time and time again they keep doing dumb stuff. Remember Homestead's original patch notes? Where DK heal was for 33% of missing magicka? That was nonsense. It made no logical sense, in any application. Both best-case and worst-case scenarios for this proposed ability were absolutely awful. We did get them to change their minds about it, but the faith in their process and abilities took a major hit from that. Fast-forward to Morrowind PTS, and see them do the exact same nonsense with Siphoning Strikes. The first version they pushed out was mathematically unsound.

It's not that people are afraid of change. We're afraid of stupid change. We're even more afraid of a massive amount of stupid changes, piled together into a single update, which also introduces a new gameplay style (battlegrounds), all at the same time. Even the most basic science class should have taught them to control their variables.

Look, I'm not denying that sustain had to be looked at. But the way they did it, and the timeframe they did it in, can't result in anything good. In case you didn't notice, patch notes from earlier this week are full of last-minute band-aid solutions (heavy attack restore goes up 30%) to the problems created by these poorly thought-out changes. And the latest batch of changes (including the Sorc pet nerf we know nothing about yet) will literally go live with the update next week, without any testing at all.

Wrobel made a nice analogy on last ESO Live, that they are balancing the way people play golf. Use a big club to send the ball to the green, and then the putter to get the ball in the hole. Thing is, this only applies if you are a good golfer! If you are a bad golfer, and you whack the ball with all your might with a big club...while facing in the wrong direction...it'll take you quite a while to find the ball, and quite a few more whacks with a big club...while hopefully facing in the right-ish direction...to merely get back to where you were, never mind to actually get the ball on the green. And that's what we're afraid of. And it's not an unreasonable fear, based on ZOS performance in this area so far.

This should be posted everywhere. +1

casparian · May 2017

Sabbathius wrote: »

I will just say one thing here. I see lots of folks using "people are afraid of change" argument. And to a degree, this is true. But with a good developer, there's a certain amount of trust involved. That is, with a good developer you KNOW they did their homework, crunched the numbers, ran the sims and then play-tested the absolute crap out of the change before putting it on PTS. And that, even if you don't see how, you can trust them that the change is for the better.

Well, this trust, or faith, just doesn't exist here. Because time and time again they keep doing dumb stuff. Remember Homestead's original patch notes? Where DK heal was for 33% of missing magicka? That was nonsense. It made no logical sense, in any application. Both best-case and worst-case scenarios for this proposed ability were absolutely awful. We did get them to change their minds about it, but the faith in their process and abilities took a major hit from that. Fast-forward to Morrowind PTS, and see them do the exact same nonsense with Siphoning Strikes. The first version they pushed out was mathematically unsound.

It's not that people are afraid of change. We're afraid of stupid change. We're even more afraid of a massive amount of stupid changes, piled together into a single update, which also introduces a new gameplay style (battlegrounds), all at the same time. Even the most basic science class should have taught them to control their variables.

Look, I'm not denying that sustain had to be looked at. But the way they did it, and the timeframe they did it in, can't result in anything good. In case you didn't notice, patch notes from earlier this week are full of last-minute band-aid solutions (heavy attack restore goes up 30%) to the problems created by these poorly thought-out changes. And the latest batch of changes (including the Sorc pet nerf we know nothing about yet) will literally go live with the update next week, without any testing at all.

Wrobel made a nice analogy on last ESO Live, that they are balancing the way people play golf. Use a big club to send the ball to the green, and then the putter to get the ball in the hole. Thing is, this only applies if you are a good golfer! If you are a bad golfer, and you whack the ball with all your might with a big club...while facing in the wrong direction...it'll take you quite a while to find the ball, and quite a few more whacks with a big club...while hopefully facing in the right-ish direction...to merely get back to where you were, never mind to actually get the ball on the green. And that's what we're afraid of. And it's not an unreasonable fear, based on ZOS performance in this area so far.

Well said. ZOS has themselves to blame for the poor reception of their changes, because they simply haven't earned players' trust. It would be one thing if their changes simply destroyed playstyles and removed certain classes from certain roles. But ZOS hasn't even shown us that they can do math. The best explanation I can come up with is that there are simply not enough devs and they don't have enough time to go through the proper steps that you described in the first paragraph.

Ojustaboo · May 2017

Maybe I am a naysayer, but maybe I'm simply saying it as I see it.

The simple fact for me and many other long term players is that while we personally have no intention of leaving at the moment, we are witnessing other long term players leaving left right and centre.

The following is taken from a chat I just had with a few other guild members in discord, all here since the start.

They don't want to keep old players in game consuming their resources, they would rather just attract new ones

The devs seem to come out with great ideas, and then for some reason (maybe the suits upstairs) release stuff that simply make many of us shake our heads in wonder (and I often wonder if the devs know the response they are going to get, but have no choice)

No guild houses for example, no storage etc. The housing could have been awesome and they could have made a fortune selling a ton of furniture to those that want to buy on the crown store. But it's so limited.

They could have done many things better in my opinion, such as instanced neighbourhoods for guilds so we can walk past our guild members houses and gardens etc with a huge guild house bang in the middle.

I paid £50 for a house and there isn't one usable wardrobe in it

They make EVERYTHING far too easy. There's no desire from them to make any end level content that's challenging to those that like a challenge, they have to have it accessible to all. I'm not saying only cater for end level players, of course not, I'm simply saying that when you put vet mode dungeons in etc, make them dam hard

And then there's the sub, we just had a discussion on what we actually get from subbing with Morrowind.

xp gain (we're already max with many CP spare for further increases)
crown points (cheaper in sales) (and many of us only spend them as they're there, would never buy them if they weren't)
10% gold gain (sitting on 1.5 million right now, gold is really easy to make if you need some),
10% crafting research (most long term players don't need it, are already levelled)
access to dlc (not expansions) We've all bought the dlc with crowns from out subs anyway
Double bank space ( while nice, with inv and bank maxed and craft bag, we never run into huge problems now)
Craft bag, the one really essential thing, but who else pays £9 a month just for inv?

We all love this game and have put lot of time and effort (and money) over the years.

And as my guild leader said, "it's all looking rather bleak"

This isn't a case of not liking change or not getting what we want so are crying, it's simply long term players seeing the game go in a direction we are fairly unhappy with, Zos trying to please all and in the progress pleasing a few. And sure the forums only represent a few players, but I don't buy that argument entirely as it can easily be applied to the few praising the direction just as well as what appears to be far more unhappy. And again, we are seeing it with our own eyes, whether long term PvP players in other guilds leaving, or PvE players going, we've seen far far far too many leave over the past 6 months and want it to stop.

Elsonso · May 2017

Sabbathius wrote: »

I will just say one thing here. I see lots of folks using "people are afraid of change" argument. And to a degree, this is true. But with a good developer, there's a certain amount of trust involved. That is, with a good developer you KNOW they did their homework, crunched the numbers, ran the sims and then play-tested the absolute crap out of the change before putting it on PTS. And that, even if you don't see how, you can trust them that the change is for the better.

Well, this trust, or faith, just doesn't exist here. Because time and time again they keep doing dumb stuff. Remember Homestead's original patch notes? Where DK heal was for 33% of missing magicka? That was nonsense. It made no logical sense, in any application. Both best-case and worst-case scenarios for this proposed ability were absolutely awful. We did get them to change their minds about it, but the faith in their process and abilities took a major hit from that. Fast-forward to Morrowind PTS, and see them do the exact same nonsense with Siphoning Strikes. The first version they pushed out was mathematically unsound.

It's not that people are afraid of change. We're afraid of stupid change. We're even more afraid of a massive amount of stupid changes, piled together into a single update, which also introduces a new gameplay style (battlegrounds), all at the same time. Even the most basic science class should have taught them to control their variables.

Look, I'm not denying that sustain had to be looked at. But the way they did it, and the timeframe they did it in, can't result in anything good. In case you didn't notice, patch notes from earlier this week are full of last-minute band-aid solutions (heavy attack restore goes up 30%) to the problems created by these poorly thought-out changes. And the latest batch of changes (including the Sorc pet nerf we know nothing about yet) will literally go live with the update next week, without any testing at all.

Wrobel made a nice analogy on last ESO Live, that they are balancing the way people play golf. Use a big club to send the ball to the green, and then the putter to get the ball in the hole. Thing is, this only applies if you are a good golfer! If you are a bad golfer, and you whack the ball with all your might with a big club...while facing in the wrong direction...it'll take you quite a while to find the ball, and quite a few more whacks with a big club...while hopefully facing in the right-ish direction...to merely get back to where you were, never mind to actually get the ball on the green. And that's what we're afraid of. And it's not an unreasonable fear, based on ZOS performance in this area so far.

I see this from a different perspective.

Most of what I see in the forum amounts to a difference of opinion. There is no indication that most of these opinions are anything more than that. When facts and numbers are presented, it is usually fairly obvious that these are for specific scenarios and play styles. It is never clear that people in the forum "did their homework" and created something that can be applied to the whole game.

Wrobel has to look at the whole game, and that is something that a lot of players in this forum are not doing. He is actually the only person in any of this that I think has done their homework, sees the whole game, and has created something that can be applied to the whole game. He and his team have spent months getting here. By the time this gets to PTS, it has been iterated over for months. Data collected. Spreadsheets created. Numbers run. Interpretations challenged. Solutions debated. Changes made. Tested. Repeat. No player on PTS is going to have the scope, or time, to compete with that to the point of presenting an alternative plan.

Time. The idea that ZOS is changing too much is an opinion rooted in a specific perception related to time. We are seeing this all at once, and it is a lot of change to process in a short amount of time. When people see everything is sudden, they interpret the situation wrong. They inflate the scope and impact of the changes. For ZOS, this is all opposite. These changes were incremental, over months, and the scope and impact is much smaller than what the players think.

The purpose of PTS is to make last minute adjustments in the overall plan based on players playing the game. They look to see where the plan can be improved, and make changes to account for how players are playing. Players are unknowns, and so there will be some last minute changes to account for that. While ZOS has been known to back up and reconsider changes, this is not happening with resource management and sustain. They seem to be fine with it, aside from some adjustments from watching players playing the content.

On the subject of communication, all I have to say is that the vast majority of the players don't care about the details of why Wrobel did something. They don't care whether ZOS did their homework, crunched the numbers, ran the sims and then play-tested the absolute crap out of the change before putting it on PTS, because they assume that this was done, if they even think about it at all. This is a safe assumption.

Galwylin · May 2017

I don't buy the argument they see the whole game. Just balance between the classes show they need glasses. Its right there plainly. They hear us about nightblades but I thought they were looking at the whole game. Why did they need to hear it? Nope. Sorry but it was a good try.

Elsonso · May 2017

Galwylin wrote: »

I don't buy the argument they see the whole game. Just balance between the classes show they need glasses. Its right there plainly. They hear us about nightblades but I thought they were looking at the whole game. Why did they need to hear it? Nope. Sorry but it was a good try.

Sure they do.

Players have a tendency to become very focused with their specific form of play, and they tend to hang out with those who share that view. It is not uncommon to think that, when someone does something contrary to that form of play, that they are not connected with the game.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · May 2017

lordrichter wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

As others have said, you can't compare these changes to other games. In all my years of MMOs, I've never seen such massive gameplay changes.

Across the whole game, this is not that massive. Maybe to you, and obviously to a lot of people on the forum, it is. I think you are looking at this through the hysteria. It isn't that way to me, and I can't be the only one. As a matter of fact, I think I am far from alone in this.

Heavy Attack is a tool to regenerate resources. One tool. One that they introduced quite a while ago. It is one of several tools. It is not supposed to be The Answer. Yes, you can do HA to regain resources, but you don't do it all the time.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

When these casuals and new players realize that they run out of resources in a few abilities and need to sit through countless heavy attack animations to sustain themselves, how long do you think they'll stay?

This is no different from today, and yet people are staying around. Presumably.

There are other aspects to the game, but at the end of the day, it IS about the combat. Crafting is to aid you in combat as well. The one exception might be those who play solely for housing / housing items or RPers, but based on my experiences so far those are a tiny minority. So, a major shift in combat IS a major shift across the whole game.

I guess there is the matter of how frequently you will actually have to HA, but IMO any heavy attacking is too much, so significantly increasing the amount which all players will have to HA is just messed up.

Heavy attacking is a tool that never should have existed. It's a serious design flaw to incorporate slow-paced swordplay mechanics with 1s gcd ability usage in the same game, using the same resource pool. It's like a really bad tool, like a nail gun whose barrel is actually curved and points back at the user.

Again, I'll refer back to how the game was apparently (I wasn't around) really bad when it came out, because it was centered around balancing large amounts of heavy attacks with your spells and abilities. I'd imagine it was more "frantic-yet-boring micromanagement online" than Elder Scrolls Online.

Even though I'm just now dipping into the CP tree (185) I can tell that, within the realm of PvE, working to mitigate the importance of heavy attacks was a great move.

lordrichter wrote: »

Sabbathius wrote: »

I will just say one thing here. I see lots of folks using "people are afraid of change" argument. And to a degree, this is true. But with a good developer, there's a certain amount of trust involved. That is, with a good developer you KNOW they did their homework, crunched the numbers, ran the sims and then play-tested the absolute crap out of the change before putting it on PTS. And that, even if you don't see how, you can trust them that the change is for the better.

Well, this trust, or faith, just doesn't exist here. Because time and time again they keep doing dumb stuff. Remember Homestead's original patch notes? Where DK heal was for 33% of missing magicka? That was nonsense. It made no logical sense, in any application. Both best-case and worst-case scenarios for this proposed ability were absolutely awful. We did get them to change their minds about it, but the faith in their process and abilities took a major hit from that. Fast-forward to Morrowind PTS, and see them do the exact same nonsense with Siphoning Strikes. The first version they pushed out was mathematically unsound.

It's not that people are afraid of change. We're afraid of stupid change. We're even more afraid of a massive amount of stupid changes, piled together into a single update, which also introduces a new gameplay style (battlegrounds), all at the same time. Even the most basic science class should have taught them to control their variables.

Look, I'm not denying that sustain had to be looked at. But the way they did it, and the timeframe they did it in, can't result in anything good. In case you didn't notice, patch notes from earlier this week are full of last-minute band-aid solutions (heavy attack restore goes up 30%) to the problems created by these poorly thought-out changes. And the latest batch of changes (including the Sorc pet nerf we know nothing about yet) will literally go live with the update next week, without any testing at all.

Wrobel made a nice analogy on last ESO Live, that they are balancing the way people play golf. Use a big club to send the ball to the green, and then the putter to get the ball in the hole. Thing is, this only applies if you are a good golfer! If you are a bad golfer, and you whack the ball with all your might with a big club...while facing in the wrong direction...it'll take you quite a while to find the ball, and quite a few more whacks with a big club...while hopefully facing in the right-ish direction...to merely get back to where you were, never mind to actually get the ball on the green. And that's what we're afraid of. And it's not an unreasonable fear, based on ZOS performance in this area so far.

I see this from a different perspective.

Most of what I see in the forum amounts to a difference of opinion. There is no indication that most of these opinions are anything more than that. When facts and numbers are presented, it is usually fairly obvious that these are for specific scenarios and play styles. It is never clear that people in the forum "did their homework" and created something that can be applied to the whole game.

Wrobel has to look at the whole game, and that is something that a lot of players in this forum are not doing. He is actually the only person in any of this that I think has done their homework, sees the whole game, and has created something that can be applied to the whole game. He and his team have spent months getting here. By the time this gets to PTS, it has been iterated over for months. Data collected. Spreadsheets created. Numbers run. Interpretations challenged. Solutions debated. Changes made. Tested. Repeat. No player on PTS is going to have the scope, or time, to compete with that to the point of presenting an alternative plan.

Time. The idea that ZOS is changing too much is an opinion rooted in a specific perception related to time. We are seeing this all at once, and it is a lot of change to process in a short amount of time. When people see everything is sudden, they interpret the situation wrong. They inflate the scope and impact of the changes. For ZOS, this is all opposite. These changes were incremental, over months, and the scope and impact is much smaller than what the players think.

The purpose of PTS is to make last minute adjustments in the overall plan based on players playing the game. They look to see where the plan can be improved, and make changes to account for how players are playing. Players are unknowns, and so there will be some last minute changes to account for that. While ZOS has been known to back up and reconsider changes, this is not happening with resource management and sustain. They seem to be fine with it, aside from some adjustments from watching players playing the content.

On the subject of communication, all I have to say is that the vast majority of the players don't care about the details of why Wrobel did something. They don't care whether ZOS did their homework, crunched the numbers, ran the sims and then play-tested the absolute crap out of the change before putting it on PTS, because they assume that this was done, if they even think about it at all. This is a safe assumption.

Just as we are assuming no meaningful thought went into this, you are assuming great amounts of meaningful thought went into this. Either side could be right, but regardless of who turns out to be correct in the end, it doesn't matter. These changes are going to make things worse. If the devs really theorycrafted these changes extensively, then their "experience" and data are pointing in the wrong direction.

Dps is going to go down, barriers to entry will become intrinsically higher. A gameplay mechanic that is generally accepted as being "unfun" is heavily promoted in the new meta. That helps no one, and only causes players to leave the game. You don't nerf your entire playerbase by a sizeable amount while keeping content the same, that's insane.

As many have already said, they're lowering the ceiling, but also lowering the floor. I'd imagine that far more players are successful because CP sustain allows them to do high dps regardless of their rotation than they will be because they are able to weave in light and heavy attacks. That's just common sense; right now, many can achieve high dps by putting points into passives. If it takes careful weaving to sustain and do almost as much dps in Morrowind, then average dps will go down because most will not be effective at doing that.

You can say "this will force players to learn to play" all you want, but for every new / casual player who "learns to play" two more will leave. I've seen it happen before in other games. There are about a dozen more interesting ways to promote skillful play and create challenging combat.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · May 2017

Sabbathius wrote: »

I will just say one thing here. I see lots of folks using "people are afraid of change" argument. And to a degree, this is true. But with a good developer, there's a certain amount of trust involved. That is, with a good developer you KNOW they did their homework, crunched the numbers, ran the sims and then play-tested the absolute crap out of the change before putting it on PTS. And that, even if you don't see how, you can trust them that the change is for the better.

Well, this trust, or faith, just doesn't exist here. Because time and time again they keep doing dumb stuff. Remember Homestead's original patch notes? Where DK heal was for 33% of missing magicka? That was nonsense. It made no logical sense, in any application. Both best-case and worst-case scenarios for this proposed ability were absolutely awful. We did get them to change their minds about it, but the faith in their process and abilities took a major hit from that. Fast-forward to Morrowind PTS, and see them do the exact same nonsense with Siphoning Strikes. The first version they pushed out was mathematically unsound.

It's not that people are afraid of change. We're afraid of stupid change. We're even more afraid of a massive amount of stupid changes, piled together into a single update, which also introduces a new gameplay style (battlegrounds), all at the same time. Even the most basic science class should have taught them to control their variables.

Look, I'm not denying that sustain had to be looked at. But the way they did it, and the timeframe they did it in, can't result in anything good. In case you didn't notice, patch notes from earlier this week are full of last-minute band-aid solutions (heavy attack restore goes up 30%) to the problems created by these poorly thought-out changes. And the latest batch of changes (including the Sorc pet nerf we know nothing about yet) will literally go live with the update next week, without any testing at all.

Wrobel made a nice analogy on last ESO Live, that they are balancing the way people play golf. Use a big club to send the ball to the green, and then the putter to get the ball in the hole. Thing is, this only applies if you are a good golfer! If you are a bad golfer, and you whack the ball with all your might with a big club...while facing in the wrong direction...it'll take you quite a while to find the ball, and quite a few more whacks with a big club...while hopefully facing in the right-ish direction...to merely get back to where you were, never mind to actually get the ball on the green. And that's what we're afraid of. And it's not an unreasonable fear, based on ZOS performance in this area so far.

+1 Best post on this subject I have seen.

All The Best

Gandrhulf_Harbard · May 2017

lordrichter wrote: »

Wrobel has to look at the whole game, and that is something that a lot of players in this forum are not doing. He is actually the only person in any of this that I think has done their homework, sees the whole game, and has created something that can be applied to the whole game. He and his team have spent months getting here. By the time this gets to PTS, it has been iterated over for months. Data collected. Spreadsheets created. Numbers run. Interpretations challenged. Solutions debated. Changes made. Tested. Repeat.

If this is true, and after ALL of that the very best they can deliver is the PoS on the PTS now then they are woefully under equipped for the responsibility they have been given.

Personally, after experiencing these last few weeks of PTS I wouldn't let Wrobel balance my kitchen scales if I only had two equal weights - because he would still manage to get it wrong.

All The Best

Hawco10 · May 2017

Your wall of text could have been cut down to: "People come,people go."
Nothing new there.

Elsonso · May 2017

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

You can say "this will force players to learn to play" all you want, but for every new / casual player who "learns to play" two more will leave. I've seen it happen before in other games. There are about a dozen more interesting ways to promote skillful play and create challenging combat.

This is based on speculation that I don't agree with.

A lot of people in the forum have a very definite way of looking at the game, with certain things that they feel must be achieved in order to be successful. Certain ways of doing things must be maintained because that is how Important Things are measured. The measure goes down, Important Things do not measure up.

So, yeah, there is a "learn to play" involved. Actually, it is more of a "remember how to play", by my time on PTS.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · May 2017

lordrichter wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

You can say "this will force players to learn to play" all you want, but for every new / casual player who "learns to play" two more will leave. I've seen it happen before in other games. There are about a dozen more interesting ways to promote skillful play and create challenging combat.

This is based on speculation that I don't agree with.

A lot of people in the forum have a very definite way of looking at the game, with certain things that they feel must be achieved in order to be successful. Certain ways of doing things must be maintained because that is how Important Things are measured. The measure goes down, Important Things do not measure up.

So, yeah, there is a "learn to play" involved. Actually, it is more of a "remember how to play", by my time on PTS.

What am I speculating on? The system is becoming less fun and intuitive, player dps (on average) will 100% go down and if it doesn't I will post a video of myself eating a sock on here, and as of now no content is being nerfed to compensate. This is a recipe for a mass migration, and the least invested and most likely to leave are the new players and casuals (of which, for now, I consider myself in this game).

Zvorgin · May 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

The game ain't gonna die over the patch . There's no where to run to . Where we going to go ? CU was never released . I don't think Star Citizen is ever going to release . AC got postponed . BDO is poop grind fest worse then here . Swtor is crap . WoW is so old I can only log in for nostalgia . There's no real place to run too even if people are unhappy . We are hostages until something decent falls on the market . If you play Skyrim remastered it's a constant reminder you should probably login an feed your horse an check your sales ... There's just no escape !

CU is about to go into Beta in the next couple of months.

Elsonso · May 2017

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

You can say "this will force players to learn to play" all you want, but for every new / casual player who "learns to play" two more will leave. I've seen it happen before in other games. There are about a dozen more interesting ways to promote skillful play and create challenging combat.

This is based on speculation that I don't agree with.

A lot of people in the forum have a very definite way of looking at the game, with certain things that they feel must be achieved in order to be successful. Certain ways of doing things must be maintained because that is how Important Things are measured. The measure goes down, Important Things do not measure up.

So, yeah, there is a "learn to play" involved. Actually, it is more of a "remember how to play", by my time on PTS.

What am I speculating on? The system is becoming less fun and intuitive, player dps (on average) will 100% go down and if it doesn't I will post a video of myself eating a sock on here, and as of now no content is being nerfed to compensate. This is a recipe for a mass migration, and the least invested and most likely to leave are the new players and casuals (of which, for now, I consider myself in this game).

You are speculating about what others will do based on your own opinions. For every one that learns to play, two more will leave? I don't buy that. These changes will drive new players away? I don't buy that, either. I can't speak for casual players because, frankly, that term has never been defined to the point where anyone can speak for them.

Player DPS probably will go down. In a lot of cases, this is not going to make a difference. The majority of PVE content in this game, and by that I mean the entire overworld, including delves, public dungeons, and every world boss that I have done, is not a DPS race. Normal group content is also not a DPS race. We don't get into DPS races until we get past this, and the majority of the players are not even doing this content, if you can believe console achievement statistics.

Galwylin · May 2017

lordrichter wrote: »

Sure they do.

Players have a tendency to become very focused with their specific form of play, and they tend to hang out with those who share that view. It is not uncommon to think that, when someone does something contrary to that form of play, that they are not connected with the game.

I am not sure what you're saying now. All I have to do is see the changes they've made of late to know there's a disconnect somewhere. Sorcerers have moved above other classes while nightblades have moved behind. Now, to take your assertion that this is for the good of the game then I must know what are they thinking. Elder Sorcerers Online?

But forget all that. This sustain issue. Why does this need to be address if they know what's going on. Did one you us sneak in there and adjust the numbers for them? How does something like that happen if resource management has always been important. If its always been important then they are very poor at their jobs.

You don't just throw stuff into the game and hope it doesn't break anything. A few proc sets here, a few there. Easy resources everywhere. It wasn't done properly so now they have to fix it. And if they screwed up that time then why will they not this time. Plus I'd like to know why they didn't just scale back what they did do before instead of this butchering of classes they're doing now. They can't admit a mistake? That maybe they weren't paying attention.

Skinless_Jerk · May 2017

Knowledge wrote: »

In the past decade I have been a part of many MMO expansion launches. I have seen the best and the worst in the aforementioned decade and I want to reassure this community that it's par for the course.

I'd like to start off by using one of the most recent examples of an expansion launch - World of Warcraft: Legion. In World of Warcraft: Legion a large group of veteran players would echo across the forums complaining about PVP changes (the removal of PVP gear) and there was even a group of players that formed a "no fly - no buy" group which stated they would not buy the game unless flying as IN the game at launch. Blizzard didn't comply with either demand and Legion launched with great success.

Moving on, Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward saw a so-called exodus in the form of many Bards over "Wanderer's Paean" requiring them to remain stationary. SquareEnix did not comply with the Bards pleas and the expansion launched with great success.

I could go on and on but I think my point can now be made. This game isn't going to collapse in a few months as people have said, they aren't going to close the servers down, and I can assure you that these forum posters represent a minority of people in this game. There will be MORE people coming to the game JUST for this expansion as first-time players than there will be people LEAVING.

This happens every time a major change is made in a game that impacts the upper tier player base. These changes aren't going to ruin the fun of the casual player and it most certainly won't kill the 'elite' or hardcore tier. There are those of us that will simply adapt and not become a victim of evolution.

Moreover, I want this to be a time for opportunity for you. You could be the next great theory crafter to replace Deltia. Or perhaps you could be an authority on your class if you try hard enough - people will look to you for answers. There are benefits to everything and this expansion launch is more of a new chapter for the community at large.

Lastly, I am glad that ZeniMax remains steadfast in their intent to shape the game in the direction they want to.

See you guys in Vvarderfell.

shape the game in a direction they want to go... you mean like shaping it around VR system, then taking it away, then shaping it around the CP system... then taking it away... i'm not complaining i like change, but adding things to grind towards and then taking them all away after every one has earned them, can be disenchanting to most.

Furinol · May 2017

alexkdd99 wrote: »

You posted examples of successes, that doesn't negate the other games that failed. Not saying eso will fail because of this, but that logic makes no sense.

There are people that agree and disagree with pretty much any game changing expansion in most any mmo. Some will fail and some will succeed.

One games success does not mean other games will see the same.

Unless you have a magic crystal that can predict the rise and falls off companies and games then you don't know what will happen with this expansion.

Exactly.

EDIT: never mind SW galaxies has already been mentioned. Holy hell that was a turd.

Agreed that I don't think ESO is headed for that fate but there are examples of utter failure out there as well as success.

Furinol · May 2017

GriMTriAd wrote: »

I've played plenty of games where a balance pass at this scale effectively killed the games.

City of Heroes has a mass exodus after Enhancement Diversification where the devs told you how to play. Star Wars Galaxies died due to a major refactoring. Tabula Rasa was a better game in better before they made combat slower which caused the almost immediate death of the game after it launched. Ignoring signs or disenfranchised people that you rely on for support of your company is a very dangerous game. The hope is that you can replace them faster than they leave, and if that happens you survive, if it doesn't you struggle for a while and die.

MANY, MANY MMO's have died on the vine and only a few have survived for a decade or longer.

Just because they are able to keep the game running doesn't mean the game survived a critical patch. At this point WoW is an after thought to blizzard as the 14 million subscribers they had at peak was killed by bad expansion after bad expansion. They lost almost 4 million players per expansion starting with cataclysm.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/18695100881
https://forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/08/05/world-of-warcraft-has-lost-44-of-its-subscribers-in-six-months-but-thats-okay/#4073929827f6

Does it matter if the game continues to have subscribers but you aren't one of them and never will be again? Dead can means a lot of things. Most people saying the game will be dead mean dead to them.

This expansion as is, may cause a mass exodus when it hits live. Will the game survive it? Maybe. We don't know, but unless you follow subscriptions numbers closely you won't know what actual impact this expansion had either.

_WAter_

Had nearly forgotten about Tabula Rasa. Another example of disappointing dev decisions. Cata was the end of WoW for me as well.

Furinol · May 2017

Linaleah wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

You posted examples of successes, that doesn't negate the other games that failed. Not saying eso will fail because of this, but that logic makes no sense.

There are people that agree and disagree with pretty much any game changing expansion in most any mmo. Some will fail and some will succeed.

One games success does not mean other games will see the same.

We will see who will be right and who will be wrong in the coming months. At that juncture, we should return to this thread to see who was right and who was wrong.

In recent memory no expansion has "killed a game". The closest example is StarWars: Galaxies NGE. That's one game out of how many?

5.0 very nearly killed SWTOR.
It was so bad that within 7 days EA had sent out a customer satisfaction survey to find out why so many people were unsubbing; and eventually lead to the "sideways promotion" of Lead Producer Ben Irving to other projects and his replacement by Keith Kanneg.

All The Best

Nearly.

its star wars. galaxies was limping along until their license ran out. so will swtor, by sheer virtue of being star wars. now. ESO has a benefit of being Elder scrolls game, so they likely have as much wiggle room there as bioware with TOR, but... you really do not want the insane population drop that swtor experienced that it STILL hasn't recovered from for ESO. do you?

also, in case of WoW and flying? it wasn't supposed to be added to warlords of draenor at all. but the backlash was so big that they 1. ended up adding it to the game anyways and 2. worked out a meta to add flying to Legion - and not at the tail end either (its available right now btw) 3. released it earlier then planned and removed some of the requirements from the META achievement to get it - specifically achievement that would delay it by another 11 weeks. entirely due to backlash/feedback.

aka - companies that live through backlash? tend to listen to feedback and implement changes based on that feedback. companies that ignore feedback? their games die.

now. Morrowind changes are not nearly as bad as some would like to claim they are. but a lot of them are not great either. so ZOS may not want to ignore feedback, or even this being Elder scrolls will not save them from population drop.

Excellent point about companies listening to feedback surviving. Blizzard's failure and resurrection of Diablo 3 is probably the best example I can think of.

Elsonso · May 2017

Galwylin wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Sure they do.

Players have a tendency to become very focused with their specific form of play, and they tend to hang out with those who share that view. It is not uncommon to think that, when someone does something contrary to that form of play, that they are not connected with the game.

I am not sure what you're saying now. All I have to do is see the changes they've made of late to know there's a disconnect somewhere. Sorcerers have moved above other classes while nightblades have moved behind. Now, to take your assertion that this is for the good of the game then I must know what are they thinking. Elder Sorcerers Online?

But forget all that. This sustain issue. Why does this need to be address if they know what's going on. Did one you us sneak in there and adjust the numbers for them? How does something like that happen if resource management has always been important. If its always been important then they are very poor at their jobs.

You don't just throw stuff into the game and hope it doesn't break anything. A few proc sets here, a few there. Easy resources everywhere. It wasn't done properly so now they have to fix it. And if they screwed up that time then why will they not this time. Plus I'd like to know why they didn't just scale back what they did do before instead of this butchering of classes they're doing now. They can't admit a mistake? That maybe they weren't paying attention.

Well, what I am saying is that a lot of problems that people have with changes to the game tend to be centered around their own narrow perception of what those changes mean to their characters. They are definitely not looking at the whole game. If anyone can, and anyone is, it has to be ZOS and Wrobel. No one else can do it, although many find it fun to try.

I have no idea what the goals they have are regarding class balance. Sorcerers should be powerful. This is a magical game rooted very solidly in magic, and Sorcerers are the very definition of that. Dragonknights, Nightblades, and Templars, not so much. Wardens, we will see on Monday. What I do think is that the classes have not been perfect equals, by design. With this update, they talk about balance, but I do not think that being perfectly balanced is the goal. I think they are more interested, in this update, in making the choice of class be less rigid and more flexible. Homogenization, but not perfectly so.

There is a certain class of player that does not care. Where things are not perfectly balanced, they will take whatever race, class, weapon, and armor they think offers the best of whatever it is they are looking for. The forum is filled with this sort of talk. I don't think that ZOS should put a lot of emphasis on ending this.

More specific to this conversation, I'm not really here to discuss how we got to where we are. Suffice it to say that it has been pretty obvious that certain other game design goals are in conflict with core combat game design goals. As priorities shift, things like this happen. The thing is that I believe that they achieved whatever goals they had, at the time. Now, we are here with Update 14, and they have apparently decided that the core combat goals have been untended for too long, and with the introduction of a new class, decided on certain goals for the other classes regarding utility and flexibility. This work needs to be done.

Back to the top, ZOS does have a view of the entire game, in a manner that the players cannot have. It is not unlike being in a thunderstorm on the ground and watching that thunderstorm on satellite. Watching a football game from the first row in the stadium and watching it from a blimp floating over the stadium. Wrobel is getting statistics about class and weapon skills being used, DPS and RPS from those skills, how monsters are performing, and a whole lot of other numbers. He is in a sea of numbers from the perspective the whole game. The player is getting that same information, but only about themselves and those around them, and only about the limited manner in which they play. Because neither has a perfect view, one having detail, but not scope, the other having scope, but not detail, multiple perspectives are necessary. This is why they have a PTS where players can comment. This is why they do internal play testing. This is why they play the Live game themselves. ZOS is the one who gets perspectives from both. How aggressively they collect and use that information, we can debate, but any player that thinks they can have a better view than ZOS, is mistaken.

Dubhliam · May 2017

Sabbathius wrote: »

...
Look, I'm not denying that sustain had to be looked at. But the way they did it, and the timeframe they did it in, can't result in anything good. ...

Actually, this IS the best time for them to make these changes.
Morrowind is one of the first contact with the franchise for many players, and the pure nostalgia element here will play a great role in the influx of new players in the upcoming weeks.

They (probably) won't have such a big influx of players ever again.

If we take into consideration their incompetence (I mean, it's ZOS, when were updates ever smooth?), then this was their last chance to make such a global change to the combat system.

Yes, many players will leave.
But may new players will also come.

Their revenue won't plummet, and the game can continue doing business as usual.