Do not let the naysayers get you down. - There is Hope.

Knowledge

In the past decade I have been a part of many MMO expansion launches. I have seen the best and the worst in the aforementioned decade and I want to reassure this community that it's par for the course.

I'd like to start off by using one of the most recent examples of an expansion launch - World of Warcraft: Legion. In World of Warcraft: Legion a large group of veteran players would echo across the forums complaining about PVP changes (the removal of PVP gear) and there was even a group of players that formed a "no fly - no buy" group which stated they would not buy the game unless flying as IN the game at launch. Blizzard didn't comply with either demand and Legion launched with great success.

Moving on, Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward saw a so-called exodus in the form of many Bards over "Wanderer's Paean" requiring them to remain stationary. SquareEnix did not comply with the Bards pleas and the expansion launched with great success.

I could go on and on but I think my point can now be made. This game isn't going to collapse in a few months as people have said, they aren't going to close the servers down, and I can assure you that these forum posters represent a minority of people in this game. There will be MORE people coming to the game JUST for this expansion as first-time players than there will be people LEAVING.

This happens every time a major change is made in a game that impacts the upper tier player base. These changes aren't going to ruin the fun of the casual player and it most certainly won't kill the 'elite' or hardcore tier. There are those of us that will simply adapt and not become a victim of evolution.

Moreover, I want this to be a time for opportunity for you. You could be the next great theory crafter to replace Deltia. Or perhaps you could be an authority on your class if you try hard enough - people will look to you for answers. There are benefits to everything and this expansion launch is more of a new chapter for the community at large.

Lastly, I am glad that ZeniMax remains steadfast in their intent to shape the game in the direction they want to.

See you guys in Vvarderfell.

alexkdd99

You posted examples of successes, that doesn't negate the other games that failed. Not saying eso will fail because of this, but that logic makes no sense.

There are people that agree and disagree with pretty much any game changing expansion in most any mmo. Some will fail and some will succeed.

One games success does not mean other games will see the same.

Unless you have a magic crystal that can predict the rise and falls off companies and games then you don't know what will happen with this expansion.

Knowledge

alexkdd99 wrote: »

You posted examples of successes, that doesn't negate the other games that failed. Not saying eso will fail because of this, but that logic makes no sense.

There are people that agree and disagree with pretty much any game changing expansion in most any mmo. Some will fail and some will succeed.

One games success does not mean other games will see the same.

We will see who will be right and who will be wrong in the coming months. At that juncture, we should return to this thread to see who was right and who was wrong.

In recent memory no expansion has "killed a game". The closest example is StarWars: Galaxies NGE. That's one game out of how many?

Danksta

Knowledge wrote: »

In the past decade I have been a part of many MMO expansion launches. I have seen the best and the worst in the aforementioned decade and I want to reassure this community that it's par for the course.

I'd like to start off by using one of the most recent examples of an expansion launch - World of Warcraft: Legion. In World of Warcraft: Legion a large group of veteran players would echo across the forums complaining about PVP changes (the removal of PVP gear) and there was even a group of players that formed a "no fly - no buy" group which stated they would not buy the game unless flying as IN the game at launch. Blizzard didn't comply with either demand and Legion launched with great success.

Moving on, Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward saw a so-called exodus in the form of many Bards over "Wanderer's Paean" requiring them to remain stationary. SquareEnix did not comply with the Bards pleas and the expansion launched with great success.

I could go on and on but I think my point can now be made. This game isn't going to collapse in a few months as people have said, they aren't going to close the servers down, and I can assure you that these forum posters represent a minority of people in this game. There will be MORE people coming to the game JUST for this expansion as first-time players than there will be people LEAVING.

This happens every time a major change is made in a game that impacts the upper tier player base. These changes aren't going to ruin the fun of the casual player and it most certainly won't kill the 'elite' or hardcore tier. There are those of us that will simply adapt and not become a victim of evolution.

Moreover, I want this to be a time for opportunity for you. You could be the next great theory crafter to replace Deltia. Or perhaps you could be an authority on your class if you try hard enough - people will look to you for answers. There are benefits to everything and this expansion launch is more of a new chapter for the community at large.

Lastly, I am glad that ZeniMax remains steadfast in their intent to shape the game in the direction they want to.

See you guys in Vvarderfell.

Thanks man! I've had an exhausting day and this gave me the laugh I needed.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Knowledge wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

You posted examples of successes, that doesn't negate the other games that failed. Not saying eso will fail because of this, but that logic makes no sense.

There are people that agree and disagree with pretty much any game changing expansion in most any mmo. Some will fail and some will succeed.

One games success does not mean other games will see the same.

We will see who will be right and who will be wrong in the coming months. At that juncture, we should return to this thread to see who was right and who was wrong.

In recent memory no expansion has "killed a game". The closest example is StarWars: Galaxies NGE. That's one game out of how many?

5.0 very nearly killed SWTOR.
It was so bad that within 7 days EA had sent out a customer satisfaction survey to find out why so many people were unsubbing; and eventually lead to the "sideways promotion" of Lead Producer Ben Irving to other projects and his replacement by Keith Kanneg.

All The Best

geonsocal

Knowledge

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

You posted examples of successes, that doesn't negate the other games that failed. Not saying eso will fail because of this, but that logic makes no sense.

There are people that agree and disagree with pretty much any game changing expansion in most any mmo. Some will fail and some will succeed.

One games success does not mean other games will see the same.

We will see who will be right and who will be wrong in the coming months. At that juncture, we should return to this thread to see who was right and who was wrong.

In recent memory no expansion has "killed a game". The closest example is StarWars: Galaxies NGE. That's one game out of how many?

5.0 very nearly killed SWTOR.
It was so bad that within 7 days EA had sent out a customer satisfaction survey to find out why so many people were unsubbing; and eventually lead to the "sideways promotion" of Lead Producer Ben Irving to other projects and his replacement by Keith Kanneg.

All The Best

Nearly.

Khenarthi

I don't really care about those other MMOs. As long as ESO lasts until TES6 is released, I'm happy.

Linaleah

Knowledge wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

You posted examples of successes, that doesn't negate the other games that failed. Not saying eso will fail because of this, but that logic makes no sense.

There are people that agree and disagree with pretty much any game changing expansion in most any mmo. Some will fail and some will succeed.

One games success does not mean other games will see the same.

We will see who will be right and who will be wrong in the coming months. At that juncture, we should return to this thread to see who was right and who was wrong.

In recent memory no expansion has "killed a game". The closest example is StarWars: Galaxies NGE. That's one game out of how many?

5.0 very nearly killed SWTOR.
It was so bad that within 7 days EA had sent out a customer satisfaction survey to find out why so many people were unsubbing; and eventually lead to the "sideways promotion" of Lead Producer Ben Irving to other projects and his replacement by Keith Kanneg.

All The Best

Nearly.

its star wars. galaxies was limping along until their license ran out. so will swtor, by sheer virtue of being star wars. now. ESO has a benefit of being Elder scrolls game, so they likely have as much wiggle room there as bioware with TOR, but... you really do not want the insane population drop that swtor experienced that it STILL hasn't recovered from for ESO. do you?

also, in case of WoW and flying? it wasn't supposed to be added to warlords of draenor at all. but the backlash was so big that they 1. ended up adding it to the game anyways and 2. worked out a meta to add flying to Legion - and not at the tail end either (its available right now btw) 3. released it earlier then planned and removed some of the requirements from the META achievement to get it - specifically achievement that would delay it by another 11 weeks. entirely due to backlash/feedback.

aka - companies that live through backlash? tend to listen to feedback and implement changes based on that feedback. companies that ignore feedback? their games die.

now. Morrowind changes are not nearly as bad as some would like to claim they are. but a lot of them are not great either. so ZOS may not want to ignore feedback, or even this being Elder scrolls will not save them from population drop.

drake88131

Question is does it deserve to make it?

Rohamad_Ali

The game ain't gonna die over the patch . There's no where to run to . Where we going to go ? CU was never released . I don't think Star Citizen is ever going to release . AC got postponed . BDO is poop grind fest worse then here . Swtor is crap . WoW is so old I can only log in for nostalgia . There's no real place to run too even if people are unhappy . We are hostages until something decent falls on the market . If you play Skyrim remastered it's a constant reminder you should probably login an feed your horse an check your sales ... There's just no escape !

starkerealm

Knowledge wrote: »

In recent memory no expansion has "killed a game". The closest example is StarWars: Galaxies NGE. That's one game out of how many?

I'd argue that Soulstorm killed Dawn of War... you didn't specify MMOs afterall.

Knowledge wrote: »

I'd like to start off by using one of the most recent examples of an expansion launch - World of Warcraft: Legion. In World of Warcraft: Legion a large group of veteran players would echo across the forums complaining about PVP changes (the removal of PVP gear) and there was even a group of players that formed a "no fly - no buy" group which stated they would not buy the game unless flying as IN the game at launch. Blizzard didn't comply with either demand and Legion launched with great success.

It's probably worth remembering, these very vocal segments of an MMO's community are, almost always, incredibly small slivers.

GriMTriAd

I've played plenty of games where a balance pass at this scale effectively killed the games.

City of Heroes has a mass exodus after Enhancement Diversification where the devs told you how to play. Star Wars Galaxies died due to a major refactoring. Tabula Rasa was a better game in better before they made combat slower which caused the almost immediate death of the game after it launched. Ignoring signs or disenfranchised people that you rely on for support of your company is a very dangerous game. The hope is that you can replace them faster than they leave, and if that happens you survive, if it doesn't you struggle for a while and die.

MANY, MANY MMO's have died on the vine and only a few have survived for a decade or longer.

Just because they are able to keep the game running doesn't mean the game survived a critical patch. At this point WoW is an after thought to blizzard as the 14 million subscribers they had at peak was killed by bad expansion after bad expansion. They lost almost 4 million players per expansion starting with cataclysm.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/18695100881
https://forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/08/05/world-of-warcraft-has-lost-44-of-its-subscribers-in-six-months-but-thats-okay/#4073929827f6

Does it matter if the game continues to have subscribers but you aren't one of them and never will be again? Dead can means a lot of things. Most people saying the game will be dead mean dead to them.

This expansion as is, may cause a mass exodus when it hits live. Will the game survive it? Maybe. We don't know, but unless you follow subscriptions numbers closely you won't know what actual impact this expansion had either.

_WAter_

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

The game ain't gonna die over the patch . There's no where to run to . Where we going to go ? CU was never released . I don't think Star Citizen is ever going to release . AC got postponed . BDO is poop grind fest worse then here . Swtor is crap . WoW is so old I can only log in for nostalgia . There's no real place to run too even if people are unhappy . We are hostages until something decent falls on the market . If you play Skyrim remastered it's a constant reminder you should probably login an feed your horse an check your sales ... There's just no escape !

Im sitting on my couch with my cats. That will teach them. Zos. Not my cats. You cant teach cats nothing.

Rohamad_Ali

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

The game ain't gonna die over the patch . There's no where to run to . Where we going to go ? CU was never released . I don't think Star Citizen is ever going to release . AC got postponed . BDO is poop grind fest worse then here . Swtor is crap . WoW is so old I can only log in for nostalgia . There's no real place to run too even if people are unhappy . We are hostages until something decent falls on the market . If you play Skyrim remastered it's a constant reminder you should probably login an feed your horse an check your sales ... There's just no escape !

Im sitting on my couch with my cats. That will teach them. Zos. Not my cats. You cant teach cats nothing.

Ya ... That'll show them .

Knowledge

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

The game ain't gonna die over the patch . There's no where to run to . Where we going to go ? CU was never released . I don't think Star Citizen is ever going to release . AC got postponed . BDO is poop grind fest worse then here . Swtor is crap . WoW is so old I can only log in for nostalgia . There's no real place to run too even if people are unhappy . We are hostages until something decent falls on the market . If you play Skyrim remastered it's a constant reminder you should probably login an feed your horse an check your sales ... There's just no escape !

Well, it's not a bad game, in my opinion. I'm not really seeking "escape".

Betsararie

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

The game ain't gonna die over the patch . There's no where to run to . Where we going to go ? CU was never released . I don't think Star Citizen is ever going to release . AC got postponed . BDO is poop grind fest worse then here . Swtor is crap . WoW is so old I can only log in for nostalgia . There's no real place to run too even if people are unhappy . We are hostages until something decent falls on the market . If you play Skyrim remastered it's a constant reminder you should probably login an feed your horse an check your sales ... There's just no escape !

It's true. There's nowhere really to run.

WoW is so stale now.

Guild Wars is garbage.

I'm playing eso for the long run (also have invested a lot of $$ in eso), so I am hoping the game can live through the patch.

itscompton

I wouldn't argue with you that many new players will pick up ESO with the release of Morrowind. Whether it will be more than leave because of the changes is debatable. However the initial enthusiasm of new players buying the game to visit MW isn't the true issue.

The issue is how many of those new players will stick around for more than a month. Because we may argue over the impact of this particular change or that but the bottom line is many testers are finding the game less fun. These are people who have played the game long enough to know what they are doing and can still complete content like VMA on the test server. But too many report on combat feeling sluggish and tedious now.

Considering the retention rate is already not that great anything that makes it worse will almost guarantee a wipe of any population gains from the MW hype and lead to a decline. Just look at the steam chart for ESO. They had the free to play week in April and the population peaked at nearly 30K concurrent players. The same when they had a free to play in Nov of last year, 29.4K was the peak pop. The next month held up very well with over 20K on at peak and an average player count higher than even November had. We can infer from the December numbers that it is likely through a combination of holiday gifts and player purchases after the F2P that there were large numbers of new players who now owned the game and kept the population numbers relatively high. But by January the peak was down to 13.7k and the average number of concurrent players plummeted by more than 20% from 9.6 to 7.6K. Unless there was a mass exodus of long time players in Jan that means a huge portion of the new players from Nov/Dec didn't last two months before moving on. Of course there was another population uptick in Feb with Homestead but then it dropped hard again in March. It seems even currently the gameplay and content additions just can't hold new/returning players for long. So what happens if the game just overall becomes less fun because of the base patch going live with MW?

No the game isn't going to shut down in a matter of months because of this patch. It's too big to completely lose viability as a moneymaker for ZOS. They could probably drop 80% of the current player base and continue to milk the game for profit. But if you're expecting the population to remain as high as it is now because new players are going to stick around to replace all the OG players that have been here for 2+ years when they leave I think you're going to be disappointed.

Tholian1

Blanco wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

The game ain't gonna die over the patch . There's no where to run to . Where we going to go ? CU was never released . I don't think Star Citizen is ever going to release . AC got postponed . BDO is poop grind fest worse then here . Swtor is crap . WoW is so old I can only log in for nostalgia . There's no real place to run too even if people are unhappy . We are hostages until something decent falls on the market . If you play Skyrim remastered it's a constant reminder you should probably login an feed your horse an check your sales ... There's just no escape !

It's true. There's nowhere really to run.

WoW is so stale now.

Guild Wars is garbage.

I'm playing eso for the long run (also have invested a lot of $$ in eso), so I am hoping the game can live through the patch.

The game will live through the patch. The worst I see happening is not enough people falling in love with the new heavy attack to sustain combat. If that happens, they will make major changes again in the next big patch for "The health of the game".

WhiteMage

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

CU was never released.

You say that like it's no longer in development. I don't appreciate that.

itscompton

Tholian1 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

The game ain't gonna die over the patch . There's no where to run to . Where we going to go ? CU was never released . I don't think Star Citizen is ever going to release . AC got postponed . BDO is poop grind fest worse then here . Swtor is crap . WoW is so old I can only log in for nostalgia . There's no real place to run too even if people are unhappy . We are hostages until something decent falls on the market . If you play Skyrim remastered it's a constant reminder you should probably login an feed your horse an check your sales ... There's just no escape !

It's true. There's nowhere really to run.

WoW is so stale now.

Guild Wars is garbage.

I'm playing eso for the long run (also have invested a lot of $$ in eso), so I am hoping the game can live through the patch.

The game will live through the patch. The worst I see happening is not enough people falling in love with the new heavy attack to sustain combat. If that happens, they will make major changes again in the next big patch for "The health of the game".

I can only hope those changes will be implemented by Developers, whether current or replacements, who make changes based on player feedback instead of whimsical reasoning. Many of the changes to class skills seem genuinely arbitrary with the reasons provided seeming to be an afterthought and quite often absurd. How else to describe the conflicting patch notes from the past few patches for the Developers vision of Spear Shards and it's Morphs?

Bouldercleave

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

You posted examples of successes, that doesn't negate the other games that failed. Not saying eso will fail because of this, but that logic makes no sense.

There are people that agree and disagree with pretty much any game changing expansion in most any mmo. Some will fail and some will succeed.

One games success does not mean other games will see the same.

We will see who will be right and who will be wrong in the coming months. At that juncture, we should return to this thread to see who was right and who was wrong.

In recent memory no expansion has "killed a game". The closest example is StarWars: Galaxies NGE. That's one game out of how many?

5.0 very nearly killed SWTOR.
It was so bad that within 7 days EA had sent out a customer satisfaction survey to find out why so many people were unsubbing; and eventually lead to the "sideways promotion" of Lead Producer Ben Irving to other projects and his replacement by Keith Kanneg.

All The Best

See? It worked out great for Ben and Keith!

Jollygoodusername

This is why I diversify my gaming and spend a few months at a time in other genres. Well, to be honest tend to keep busy in Arpgs like PoE/Grim Dawn. Still mod Skyrim when I feel like torturing myself with photoshop/3dmax. I agree there aren't many MMO options at the moment but quite a few kickstarter projects looking amazing.

Rohamad_Ali

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

The game ain't gonna die over the patch . There's no where to run to . Where we going to go ? CU was never released . I don't think Star Citizen is ever going to release . AC got postponed . BDO is poop grind fest worse then here . Swtor is crap . WoW is so old I can only log in for nostalgia . There's no real place to run too even if people are unhappy . We are hostages until something decent falls on the market . If you play Skyrim remastered it's a constant reminder you should probably login an feed your horse an check your sales ... There's just no escape !

Im sitting on my couch with my cats. That will teach them. Zos. Not my cats. You cant teach cats nothing.

Ya ... That'll show them .

Blanco wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

The game ain't gonna die over the patch . There's no where to run to . Where we going to go ? CU was never released . I don't think Star Citizen is ever going to release . AC got postponed . BDO is poop grind fest worse then here . Swtor is crap . WoW is so old I can only log in for nostalgia . There's no real place to run too even if people are unhappy . We are hostages until something decent falls on the market . If you play Skyrim remastered it's a constant reminder you should probably login an feed your horse an check your sales ... There's just no escape !

It's true. There's nowhere really to run.

WoW is so stale now.

Guild Wars is garbage.

I'm playing eso for the long run (also have invested a lot of $$ in eso), so I am hoping the game can live through the patch.

Yeah so am I . I said what I had to say about the patch to ZoS and that's all any of Us can do is give feedback . So now it's either move on or go back to playing ESO and figuring out how to make the best of the changes . Figuring out the best way has already sunk my bank account Ingame for 230K so far . Staying relevant after a major patch change will leave characters wearing a barrels and suspenders begging for change .

So now I need to grind rare motifs for more money and rob every home in Kvatch for the next month just to break even ... I'm too busy to be upset .

waitwhat

Knowledge wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

You posted examples of successes, that doesn't negate the other games that failed. Not saying eso will fail because of this, but that logic makes no sense.

There are people that agree and disagree with pretty much any game changing expansion in most any mmo. Some will fail and some will succeed.

One games success does not mean other games will see the same.

We will see who will be right and who will be wrong in the coming months. At that juncture, we should return to this thread to see who was right and who was wrong.

In recent memory no expansion has "killed a game". The closest example is StarWars: Galaxies NGE. That's one game out of how many?

5.0 very nearly killed SWTOR.
It was so bad that within 7 days EA had sent out a customer satisfaction survey to find out why so many people were unsubbing; and eventually lead to the "sideways promotion" of Lead Producer Ben Irving to other projects and his replacement by Keith Kanneg.

All The Best

Nearly.

@Knowledge

@Gandrhulf_Harbard 's point still stands. The changes were bad for SWTOR by costing the game a significant chunk of the playerbase it might have otherwise kept. Moreover, those changes cost Ben Irving his job. When someone loses their job over something, saying that the game was only "nearly" killed isn't any consolation.

Crucially, not killing the game, i.e. not causing a fatal exodus of players, isn't the only rubric by which changes are rightfully evaluated. It doesn't matter if the changes don't cause ZOS to file for Chapter 11 if those changes induce huge iniquities between classes or are made in bad faith.

Saying that the game won't die does nothing to diminish criticism of these changes. It is an abject non-response.

DragonBound

Knowledge wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

You posted examples of successes, that doesn't negate the other games that failed. Not saying eso will fail because of this, but that logic makes no sense.

There are people that agree and disagree with pretty much any game changing expansion in most any mmo. Some will fail and some will succeed.

One games success does not mean other games will see the same.

We will see who will be right and who will be wrong in the coming months. At that juncture, we should return to this thread to see who was right and who was wrong.

In recent memory no expansion has "killed a game". The closest example is StarWars: Galaxies NGE. That's one game out of how many?

Correction tons of changes have ruined other mmorpgs without expansions, I have been in multiple mmorpgs and watched it happen.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

itscompton wrote: »

I wouldn't argue with you that many new players will pick up ESO with the release of Morrowind. Whether it will be more than leave because of the changes is debatable. However the initial enthusiasm of new players buying the game to visit MW isn't the true issue.

The issue is how many of those new players will stick around for more than a month. Because we may argue over the impact of this particular change or that but the bottom line is many testers are finding the game less fun. These are people who have played the game long enough to know what they are doing and can still complete content like VMA on the test server. But too many report on combat feeling sluggish and tedious now.

Considering the retention rate is already not that great anything that makes it worse will almost guarantee a wipe of any population gains from the MW hype and lead to a decline. Just look at the steam chart for ESO. They had the free to play week in April and the population peaked at nearly 30K concurrent players. The same when they had a free to play in Nov of last year, 29.4K was the peak pop. The next month held up very well with over 20K on at peak and an average player count higher than even November had. We can infer from the December numbers that it is likely through a combination of holiday gifts and player purchases after the F2P that there were large numbers of new players who now owned the game and kept the population numbers relatively high. But by January the peak was down to 13.7k and the average number of concurrent players plummeted by more than 20% from 9.6 to 7.6K. Unless there was a mass exodus of long time players in Jan that means a huge portion of the new players from Nov/Dec didn't last two months before moving on. Of course there was another population uptick in Feb with Homestead but then it dropped hard again in March. It seems even currently the gameplay and content additions just can't hold new/returning players for long. So what happens if the game just overall becomes less fun because of the base patch going live with MW?

No the game isn't going to shut down in a matter of months because of this patch. It's too big to completely lose viability as a moneymaker for ZOS. They could probably drop 80% of the current player base and continue to milk the game for profit. But if you're expecting the population to remain as high as it is now because new players are going to stick around to replace all the OG players that have been here for 2+ years when they leave I think you're going to be disappointed.

This is my basic fear. From reports morrowind content can be finished up in a week or so of a couple hours a night. I get it. It is great to get morrowind in the game. But over all to me, it isn't what is going to keep people in game.

The warden? Battlegrounds? The new trial? I hope those turn out to be fun for a month after our huge 'expansion' or we will be right back here again. If not worse off.

Im not trying to be a naysayer. And I'll be buying morrowind for 2 accounts. But I like the game I enjoy the game. I want it to move in a positive direction. The small little updates already bleed people after a month. If the brand new chapter can't hold them longer ill be worried. Course I haven't played much in the last month or two anyway so maybe I'm just worried for myself.

Phinix1

Knowledge wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

You posted examples of successes, that doesn't negate the other games that failed. Not saying eso will fail because of this, but that logic makes no sense.

There are people that agree and disagree with pretty much any game changing expansion in most any mmo. Some will fail and some will succeed.

One games success does not mean other games will see the same.

We will see who will be right and who will be wrong in the coming months. At that juncture, we should return to this thread to see who was right and who was wrong.

In recent memory no expansion has "killed a game". The closest example is StarWars: Galaxies NGE. That's one game out of how many?

But taking your original examples:

Flying Mounts not added to a zone at launch is not an NGE (new game experience). One Bard ability is not an NGE.

Completely changing the mechanics of resources across the board, changing MANY class abilities, and imposing a new requirement to heavy attack for regen is closer to NGE than either of those examples you base your arguments on.

I don't have an opinion either way on the topic of "positivism" or "negativism" (I believe it to be a meaningless illusion generated by anonymous out-of-context information feedback loops and polarized forum parroting), but I think your logic is flawed, or at the very least, incomplete.

Knowledge

Phinix1 wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

You posted examples of successes, that doesn't negate the other games that failed. Not saying eso will fail because of this, but that logic makes no sense.

There are people that agree and disagree with pretty much any game changing expansion in most any mmo. Some will fail and some will succeed.

One games success does not mean other games will see the same.

We will see who will be right and who will be wrong in the coming months. At that juncture, we should return to this thread to see who was right and who was wrong.

In recent memory no expansion has "killed a game". The closest example is StarWars: Galaxies NGE. That's one game out of how many?

But taking your original examples:

Flying Mounts not added to a zone at launch is not an NGE (new game experience). One Bard ability is not an NGE.

Completely changing the mechanics of resources across the board, changing MANY class abilities, and imposing a new requirement to heavy attack for regen is closer to NGE than either of those examples you base your arguments on.

I don't have an opinion either way on the topic of "positivism" or "negativism" (I believe it to be a meaningless illusion generated by anonymous out-of-context information feedback loops and polarized forum parroting), but I think your logic is flawed, or at the very least, incomplete.

If you think this is NGE you never played during NGE.

Silver_Strider

I can't speak for WoW but I'm calling several different forms of BS on Heavenward being a success at launch.

Apart from the Bard complaining about Wanderer's Paeon, there was also several very real issues overall with the game at Heavensward's launch. The fact there was only 1 dungeon in the Expert Tier group finder, that a composition of Paladin tank, Astrologian Healer, and Bard+Machinist DPS was a GUARANTEED failure group due to being unable to meet the DPS check of the 1st boss in that dungeon, that the 1st set of end game raids were so impossibly difficult that only 1% of the 1% could even clear it and that the introduction of Diadem MURDERED end game raiding due to handing out identical, or even better, loot than raids made Heavensward an AWFUL expansion at it's onset.

The game has recovered and I greatly enjoy it but please, do not act that Heavensward had a flawless launch.

Knowledge

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I can't speak for WoW but I'm calling several different forms of BS on Heavenward being a success at launch.

Apart from the Bard complaining about Wanderer's Paeon, there was also several very real issues overall with the game at Heavensward's launch. The fact there was only 1 dungeon in the Expert Tier group finder, that a composition of Paladin tank, Astrologian Healer, and Bard+Machinist DPS was a GUARANTEED failure group due to being unable to meet the DPS check of the 1st boss in that dungeon, that the 1st set of end game raids were so impossibly difficult that only 1% of the 1% could even clear it and that the introduction of Diadem MURDERED end game raiding due to handing out identical, or even better, loot than raids made Heavensward an AWFUL expansion at it's onset.

The game has recovered and I greatly enjoy it but please, do not act that Heavensward had a flawless launch.

Despite all of those shortcomings the expansion sold more copies than anticipated and pushed Final Fantasy XIV to a new level.