0 stamina regen while blocking-ZOS still ignores feedback of PVE tanks and follows mysterious agenda

Rinmaethodain

In addition to that, they relentlessly hunt down anything that could help players to fight against this unjustified nerf:

"Fixed an issue that allowed those with racial passives which increased Stamina Recovery to still recover Stamina while blocking."

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/202620/if-its-so-much-fun-to-not-regen-stamina-while-blocking/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/201750/no-stam-regen-while-blocking-this-has-got-to-be-pulled-before-it-goes-live/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/206319/poll-no-stamina-recovery-while-blocking
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/202628/poll-stam-regen-on-blocking/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/200917/pve-tanking-future-r-i-p-tanks-do-not-get-rid-of-stam-regen-while-blocking-in-pve/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/202941/this-is-why-no-stam-regen-while-blocking-really-screws-you-over/p1

sebban

0% stamina regen while blocking is the worst change in ESO history.

Wing

what a bunch of crap

Rinmaethodain

"0 stamina regen while blocking", a change introduced by people who:

- dont play tanks on official ESO live streams
- dont even know what real tank is while stating that "tank types should have less health and do more damage

to forcefully make true PVE tanks happy, because apparently we dont know whats good for us, and we are hurting ourselfs by doing what a tank is supposed to do.

Personofsecrets

MaximusDargus wrote: »

In addition to that, they relentlessly hunt down anything that could help players to fight against this unjustified nerf:

"Fixed an issue that allowed those with racial passives which increased Stamina Recovery to still recover Stamina while blocking."

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/202620/if-its-so-much-fun-to-not-regen-stamina-while-blocking/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/201750/no-stam-regen-while-blocking-this-has-got-to-be-pulled-before-it-goes-live/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/206319/poll-no-stamina-recovery-while-blocking
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/202628/poll-stam-regen-on-blocking/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/200917/pve-tanking-future-r-i-p-tanks-do-not-get-rid-of-stam-regen-while-blocking-in-pve/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/202941/this-is-why-no-stam-regen-while-blocking-really-screws-you-over/p1

In all fairness the developers did comment that they know there are people who don't like the change.

They said that right now feedback is split 50/50 with regards to the change, but I wonder how much of the 50% who are for the change are not tanks or want the ability to kill tanks faster.

Wing

I would like to say that I was never one to use block cost reduction enchants and only use taunt. . .

UNTIL this update, now I need every scrap of cost reduction I can get, and I only have the stamina to taunt.

in there effort to move people away from a meta the have forced people further into said meta.

GG

The_Boze

In my opinion the best suggestion I have seen that could satisfy both PvE and PvP would be 50% damage reduction while blocking. That would still allow us PvE tanks to do what we need to without being hamstringed. I wouldn't say it would eliminate perma blockers in PvP, but it would deter those builds, because seeing as you can't taunt players most people would just ignore the tank out there holding block because he is not going to be doing any significant damage.

Rook_Master

Eh, now you don't have perma-blockers in PvP.

Kupoking

I am an end game tank. Ive tested this and I gave the following feedback.

Nerf is managable in all the dungeons ive tested includng the new ones and gives a good challenge for tanks in pve. So I guess they didnt ignore my feedback.

Here is my personnal opinion: tanking is ridiculously easy on live that anyone can do it. The change will help weed out those who should roll dps instead.

Wing

aww you either removed your original post or it was removed for you sad face. EDIT: mine is gone too -_-

nobody is complaining about roll dodge because that obviously needed to happen and everyone wanted it to happen in the first place. and both nirn and sharpened maces were at best way over performing and at worst exploits.

comparing the gutting of a PvE feature and the fix of PvP features is two different things.

you have your class and alliance rank in your sig, as well as nothing but PvP videos on your youtube. . .ill stop talking about PvP if you will first ^_^

:insert witty picture with witty text here:

Rinmaethodain

Im sure that someone who spent over a year in game can adapt to anything. Too bad its once again thinking in category of "me, myself" or just like ive been mentioning, wanting to obtain personal gains by supporting bad change: "ive spent over year in game, have perfect build and flawless internet connection, ill adapt to anything and get rid of competition"

Fortunately there are people who despite being highly experienced can see whole picture of stamina regen ubernerf, not just on their own nose. People who care for overall health of PVE tanking and role balance.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2092385/#Comment_2092385

Aluapfant wrote:

....So,

do i think making stamina regeneration stop while blocking a stupid change for trial PVE content? yes I do! It is extremely unnecessary, especially for the majority of our ESO player base. For the 1% elite it can be a fun change but catering to those few seems silly...
Were these changes implemented without caring [or at least considering] PVE end game content? Yes, in my opinion they were. Especially without considering the average, fun loving tank and trial group with semi decent dps and a sense of adventure
Can this be fixed? I really hope so. But then I ask. Why the hell break it in the 1st place!?!...

Forestd16b14_ESO

It's either 0 stamina regen or no block casting those are the choices here and ZoS went with 0 stamina.

amasuriel

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

It's either 0 stamina regen or no block casting those are the choices here and ZoS went with 0 stamina.

Those are not the only choices at all. I don't even think its the only choice for PvP, and for PvE its an absurd statement.

If killing people who block in PvP is too challenging, maybe its you who needs to L2P, not PvE tanks.

david.haypreub18_ESO

The real problem was block casting.

But instead of fixing block casting, they just nerfed all blocking.

Personofsecrets

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

It's either 0 stamina regen or no block casting those are the choices here and ZoS went with 0 stamina.

You forget the choice where everything stays as it is on live and the vast majority of people merrily go on their way.

Personofsecrets

amasuriel wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

It's either 0 stamina regen or no block casting those are the choices here and ZoS went with 0 stamina.

Those are not the only choices at all. I don't even think its the only choice for PvP, and for PvE its an absurd statement.

If killing people who block in PvP is too challenging, maybe its you who needs to L2P, not PvE tanks.

The commenter you quoted and others like them just want to shut down the debate. They don't care the reason for the change and will make any argument they can, including a false dichotomy, to ensure that the nerf is seen through.

At first, some people said "the change has to be tested first."

Despite the poll in the general forums conclusion (after the PTS launch) and despite the developers finding of the opinion on the nerf being split, now the same people that said "the change has to be tested first" are saying that the nerf is forgone conclusion that merits no further debate.

It is troubling to me how that specific archetype of person is leaving positive feedback about the nerf while being so intellectually dishonest.

Halfwitte

Expect Eric Wrobel's philosophy on fun to ruin lots and lots of things in ESO's future.

The Gospel of Fun according to Eric Wrobel, Tanking isn't fun so were going to ensure that anyone that disagrees with my gospel as it stands now will certainly not find it fun after we're done with it. We can only speculate that this is the reason they have decided to break it since they have yet to release a logical reason for this unfounded change of our fun other than someones opinion on what things are fun or are not fun.

Eric Wrobel please take your fun over to Blizzard they have a similar philosophy so you will be welcome there. If too many people are using just one skill or gear set or build, break it so no one uses it and say it wasn't fun to begin with so no big deal then introduce something else more annoying like losing your stones to gankers to help you forget they broke your character.

Katinas

My suggestion of stamina regeneration while in combat:

Stamina regeneration is 0% when you have a self-applied damage absorbing shield and you also hold block.
Stamina regeneration is 50% when you have a self-applied damage absorbing shield but you do not hold block.
Stamina regeneration is 50% when you do not have a self-applied damage absorbing shield but you hold block.
Stamina regeneration is 100% when you do not have a self-applied damage absorbing shield and you do not hold block.

Stamina regeneration is not affected when your allies apply a damage absorbing shield on you.
Stamina regeneration while out of combat works the same as it does now.

Also, if Zenimax really feels the need to lower stamina regeneration then these percentages can be further adjusted. It does not have to be nice looking numbers like 0%, 50% and 100%.

Darnathian

amasuriel wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

It's either 0 stamina regen or no block casting those are the choices here and ZoS went with 0 stamina.

Those are not the only choices at all. I don't even think its the only choice for PvP, and for PvE its an absurd statement.

If killing people who block in PvP is too challenging, maybe its you who needs to L2P, not PvE tanks.

Hear hear. That's the thing though. They don't have trouble killing us. It just takes too long. And by that I mean 10-15 seconds

Darnathian

If this is so fair then if you cast a shield you get zero magika regen. You okay with that now sorcs? Even though that would make sorcerer more challenging. Literally the same thing. Only instead of block casting it would be shield casting. Then let's see how fair all these sorc propagandists think it is.

Anxileel

Darnathian wrote: »

amasuriel wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

It's either 0 stamina regen or no block casting those are the choices here and ZoS went with 0 stamina.

Those are not the only choices at all. I don't even think its the only choice for PvP, and for PvE its an absurd statement.

If killing people who block in PvP is too challenging, maybe its you who needs to L2P, not PvE tanks.

Hear hear. That's the thing though. They don't have trouble killing us. It just takes too long. And by that I mean 10-15 seconds

Indeed; they just want to kill a few seconds faster.

Stalwart385

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

I am an end game tank. Ive tested this and I gave the following feedback.

Nerf is managable in all the dungeons ive tested includng the new ones and gives a good challenge for tanks in pve. So I guess they didnt ignore my feedback.

Here is my personnal opinion: tanking is ridiculously easy on live that anyone can do it. The change will help weed out those who should roll dps instead.

Your opinion is pretty bad for the game. Not anyone can walk in and do SO. Some tanks struggle in AA. Even the ghost in CoH give pug tanks trouble. I have top 5 scores in SO and HR as a tank. I will adjust if they stick with this silly change. That doesn't mean it is better, more fun or good for the game. If your goal is to get rid of more tanks, you obviously only care about your own agenda and not the game.

Dagoth_Rac

I think perma-blocking is a big problem. But why implement a change that is an across the board nerf to blocking? It just seems like blocking for a few seconds as designed (against a player's Wrecking Blow, a Dremora's heavy attack, to mitigate a boss mechanic) causes you to either miss stam regen ticks or delay them. It already costs stamina to block. Now we lose stamina regen, too? For using block as designed?

The problem was not pressing the block button. The problem was keeping the block button held down for a long time.

Why not increase the cost of block the longer you hold it? Reduce the damage mitigation the longer you hold block? Reduce stamina recovery the longer you hold it? Reduce weapon/spell damage the longer you hold block? There were lots of ways to discourage perma-blocking by targeting perma-blocking, not simply targeting blocking in general.

This feels like a crude, lazy way to fix the perma-blocking problem.

Stalwart385

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I think perma-blocking is a big problem. But why implement a change that is an across the board nerf to blocking? It just seems like blocking for a few seconds as designed (against a player's Wrecking Blow, a Dremora's heavy attack, to mitigate a boss mechanic) causes you to either miss stam regen ticks or delay them. It already costs stamina to block. Now we lose stamina regen, too? For using block as designed?

The problem was not pressing the block button. The problem was keeping the block button held down for a long time.

Why not increase the cost of block the longer you hold it? Reduce the damage mitigation the longer you hold block? Reduce stamina recovery the longer you hold it? Reduce weapon/spell damage the longer you hold block? There were lots of ways to discourage perma-blocking by targeting perma-blocking, not simply targeting blocking in general.

This feels like a crude, lazy way to fix the perma-blocking problem.

Decreasing stam regen while blocking over time sounds very interesting.

Anxileel

Stalwart385 wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I think perma-blocking is a big problem. But why implement a change that is an across the board nerf to blocking? It just seems like blocking for a few seconds as designed (against a player's Wrecking Blow, a Dremora's heavy attack, to mitigate a boss mechanic) causes you to either miss stam regen ticks or delay them. It already costs stamina to block. Now we lose stamina regen, too? For using block as designed?

The problem was not pressing the block button. The problem was keeping the block button held down for a long time.

Why not increase the cost of block the longer you hold it? Reduce the damage mitigation the longer you hold block? Reduce stamina recovery the longer you hold it? Reduce weapon/spell damage the longer you hold block? There were lots of ways to discourage perma-blocking by targeting perma-blocking, not simply targeting blocking in general.

This feels like a crude, lazy way to fix the perma-blocking problem.

Decreasing stam regen while blocking over time sounds very interesting.

At least it is better than 0%.

xaraan

Personofsecrets wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

In addition to that, they relentlessly hunt down anything that could help players to fight against this unjustified nerf:

"Fixed an issue that allowed those with racial passives which increased Stamina Recovery to still recover Stamina while blocking."

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/202620/if-its-so-much-fun-to-not-regen-stamina-while-blocking/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/201750/no-stam-regen-while-blocking-this-has-got-to-be-pulled-before-it-goes-live/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/206319/poll-no-stamina-recovery-while-blocking
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/202628/poll-stam-regen-on-blocking/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/200917/pve-tanking-future-r-i-p-tanks-do-not-get-rid-of-stam-regen-while-blocking-in-pve/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/202941/this-is-why-no-stam-regen-while-blocking-really-screws-you-over/p1

In all fairness the developers did comment that they know there are people who don't like the change.

They said that right now feedback is split 50/50 with regards to the change, but I wonder how much of the 50% who are for the change are not tanks or want the ability to kill tanks faster.

No it's not. (Though I don't doubt the last sentence in your post at all)

This idea is someone's puppy on the dev team and a few guilds have tanks (probably DKs 75% of the time) that are saying they have no problems tanking without stamina (and most of them haven't tried the new IC dungeons on vet). This was not a huge issue they've heard about, especially in comparison to other issues (zerging, lag, shield stacking, particular overpowered abilities, etc) that they have had tons of feedback about.

It feels like they are trying to turn this game into Call of Duty style combat. You can see that with the spawns and instantly dumping people back into fights in IC and now taking away the ability of a tank to tank (past a certain point) so they are easier to zerg down or dps through (b/c dps is what's important, not the other roles). I guess it's doing well on console, so maybe it's smart business wise. The biggest issue is this game is made for casuals and then they throw in random hard core mechanics like this for tanking, it doesn't fit.

Can I do it? Yes, but my own selfishness doesn't dictate all my decisions believe it or not. It's about what is best for the game and what is balanced. I've seen the huge gap in damage you take (especially in pvp with all the armor pen) for not holding block, even with heavy armor and it's not pretty. The sad thing is with the buff to light armor and the over-powered shields (feedback they've heard overwhelmingly needs to be addressed and choose to ignore btw) we are starting to swing back towards the meta of light armor tanks. There are several ways they could build a stamina penalty in the game that encourages people not to perma-block, but at least rewards players built for tanking with some return. I'm disappointed that now my tanks stamina regen is as important as his health regen (which is - it's not). Not to mention with the latency (not talking lag here) is active blocking will not be reliable in pvp.

PLUS, they've already added several attacks that go through block. If they are going to go this route with active blocking and still have stuff going through block, then it will be really favored on the side of DPS. So, I don't get stam back while blocking and I lose stam blocking your attack and I lose stam breaking out of your attack that went through my block and I can't block your next attack b/c I'm out of stamina, so... yeah. If I can't regen while blocking, then every attack should be blockable.

ToRelax

Since I can't look in the mirror this morning knowing I didn't at least add my voice to the feedback:
ZOS, this change is bad for both PvE and PvP. I literally never heard any PvE tank complain about perma block and it is going to favour zergs - as if that was needed now. And you should feel bad.

And no, I never used perma block myself and since I have a Sorc gorup now that has most trouble with perma blocking DKs, I am most certainly not pushing my own agenda.

olemanwinter

It's amazing to me how much the interaction between developers and players and between the players themselves in an MMO is like real life politics.

MaximusDargus wrote: »

to forcefully make true PVE tanks happy, because apparently we dont know whats good for us, and we are hurting ourselfs by doing what a tank is supposed to do.

Isn't it interesting how from something completely unrelated you can almost extrapolate exactly what someone's larger "world view" (a term I hate) would be and their opinions on taxes, and various laws of all sorts, supreme court decisions, etc. etc. etc.

I feel like you could point me to any 10 random posts of someone on these boards and I would know so much more about them than just how they play games.

I already wrote about how "Tanking was boring" is a TALKING POINT (just like politics) that only existed after the fact. I never saw any threads complaining about PvE tanking prior to this change. It's a talking point manufactured after the fact to make it harder to argue against it.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

In all fairness the developers did comment that they know there are people who don't like the change.

Almost like when the government passes something without popular support so they talk down to the public like little children "I know some of you aren't going to like this, but this is just the way it's gotta be". This is when you get key phrases like "common sense __________" or "skin in the game" or whatever other catchall phrase implies that the opposing position is INHERENTLY ignorant and therefore to be ignored...no matter even if it's held by a majority.

Conversely, if there is popular support for something then "it's the will of the people"...or in Zos speak "We listened to the players".

Listening to the players (or voters) doesn't count if you only listen when they agree with you!

Personofsecrets wrote: »

It is troubling to me how that specific archetype of person is leaving positive feedback about the nerf while being so intellectually dishonest.

BINGO! "Specific Archetype of Person". This entire debate could be about ANYTHING. Sports, taxes, various other laws.

This is a change designed to address a real problem (just like most RL laws) but with unintended consequences that are just as bad as the original problem (as is frequently the case in RL) but to protect the change for the people who have a vested interest in fixing the original problem, they have created a dishonest TALKING POINT that is designed to discredit people pointing out the new unintended consequence by pretending to be the very people they are arguing against (PvE tanks).

Wing

olemanwinter wrote: »

-snip-

*sniffle* that was wonderful man, you just keep on going. *claps*

Darnathian

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I think perma-blocking is a big problem. But why implement a change that is an across the board nerf to blocking? It just seems like blocking for a few seconds as designed (against a player's Wrecking Blow, a Dremora's heavy attack, to mitigate a boss mechanic) causes you to either miss stam regen ticks or delay them. It already costs stamina to block. Now we lose stamina regen, too? For using block as designed?

The problem was not pressing the block button. The problem was keeping the block button held down for a long time.

Why not increase the cost of block the longer you hold it? Reduce the damage mitigation the longer you hold block? Reduce stamina recovery the longer you hold it? Reduce weapon/spell damage the longer you hold block? There were lots of ways to discourage perma-blocking by targeting perma-blocking, not simply targeting blocking in general.

This feels like a crude, lazy way to fix the perma-blocking problem.

There was never a problem. A tank that holds block? Come on. What is the actual problem with that. You are outing out way less damage. You don't kill much.

Hmm. Why is this guy wearing a sword and shield and blocking? Must be a tank. Get him last. Go for the squishies. Don't worry about him he can't kill crap.

Or what is happening,

Omg I am throwing everything at him and it is taking twice as long to kill him than everyone else I slaughter. This is crap Zos. Huge problem zos. Get rid of tanks. Only us shields stackers have any skill refreshing our skills We press two buttons to their one. Nerf then please Nd get rid of this hinderence

So guess what Zos chooses? Then they all say great change Zos! Then they all laugh out loud in their house and say omg this is going be so much fun murdering everyone!

F7sus4

Personofsecrets wrote: »

They said that right now feedback is split 50/50 with regards to the change, but I wonder how much of the 50% who are for the change are not tanks or want the ability to kill tanks faster.

Oh, really? Where's the other 50% of 50/50 then? Show me them talking!