Do not let the naysayers get you down. - There is Hope.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · May 2017

Hehehe lots of build diversity. It's a myth. Ive heard that is as many MMO rebalances as I've heard this rebalance will kill the game. Neither turn out to be true.

ObsidianMichi · May 2017

Honestly, this game has been declared dead so many times that there's no reason to even take the naysayers seriously anymore. This happens with every single major change, and sometimes even the minor ones. At this point, whether they want to or not, they just sound hysterical.

We've been over this one so many times, in so many ways, with the game declared dead so many different ways, DOOMED, and such. It hasn't happened yet, and it probably won't.

Morrowind is going to be a success off the nostalgia factor alone, a lot of people will be buying the expansion. We don't even know what ZOS wants or is looking for in terms of success or what they need to keep the servers running, or the function the game serves in Bethesda's overarching goals (and, yes, Zenimax is the holding company for Bethesda, they're essentially one and the same). It's a privately held company. We don't know what they're looking for, what the low point is, or what the shut off point is for when the game can be declared "doomed". We also don't know what their definition of success is. It may very well be that quarterly releases are all it needs to be successful or keeping the Elder Scrolls brand alive/awareness up between SP releases, rather than straight monetary earnings or the population base. It could already be successful in the eyes of the company paying to keep the lights on.

We have no metrics, and we can't even compare to other game studios because Zenimax Online isn't in the same situation. We don't know. That uncertainty opens up room for a lot of doubt, sure, but the community has lost so much credibility with the constant doomsaying that there's not much reason to give credence to it.

This game was supposed to be murdered in its bed by TOR, remember? Then, BDO. Then, ArcheAge. Then by every other release between then and now. It was supposed to die with the B2P transition. Then, the Imperial City too. Then, One Tamriel.

It is still here. It will probably survive this too, and be fine.

Some of the people crying won't be here, but that's their problem.

Rickter · May 2017

The Elder Scrolls Online is much like the company, Google.

It cant fail.

There is absolutely no rival on the market. Especially on console which is (confirmed by developer in a personal conversation) 60-70% of the player population. Seriously, please be logical. what options do console players have for a persistent MMORPG fantasy experience?

Neverwinter? confirmed absolute P2W (not this B.S. about eso being p2w, ya'll dont even know what p2w is until you play Neverwinter)

FFXIV? FF is a great game, not taking that away - its very enjoyable. But, does it let you to loot the interactable environment? Is it fully voiced? can you assassinate just about every NPC you can see? IS IT EVEN ON XBOX?
no. no. no. no .

ok so lets look at PC - what options do you have in terms of ESO's target market/genre? WoW? FFXIV? BDO?

lulz. all hot key cool down mmos. BDO is the only contender in regards to interactable environment and detail and its simply too much of a grind for American audiences.

ESO is it folks. there aint nowhere else to go except quit completely and play something entirely different like Destiny.

Aside from the sheer default aspect - lets talk actual game: It's beautiful, its immersive (easily the best mmo to rp in), its got massive amounts of content, and i could go on.

#SeeYouInVvardenfell

sadownik · May 2017

@Rickter too big to fail, eh? Well, while it doesn't make me want to come back to ESO, i dont think this update will kill ESO.

Balamoor · May 2017

In reality the number of people who are legitimately concerned and who have made logical arguments are infinitesimally small, there is a lot of drama llama "the sky is falling" trolling which I think the CM's are getting more than a bit tired of considering some of their actions over the past few days.

I think even if the changes are bad , it's nothing that can't be tweaked, the people that compare this to NGE are for lack of a better word stupid, NGE was a complete revamped and they deleted the backups so they couldn't go back...this is minor.

What has damaged the community I think is the toxicity from people that really have no skin in the game, the "I left the game but Im still posting types" or the "I love me some drama /popcorn" types.....these *** have move the development and CM teams into more of a us vs them stance, which gives the trolls exactly what they want, because crying about lack of communication and so called draconian forum actions is a good source of drama too.

ZoS hopefully will make some much needed forum changes soon, because as awesome as our in game community is the forum Community is a hybrid of WoW and LoL.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · May 2017

Balamoor wrote: »

In reality the number of people who are legitimately concerned and who have made logical arguments are infinitesimally small, there is a lot of drama llama "the sky is falling" trolling which I think the CM's are getting more than a bit tired of considering some of their actions over the past few days.

I think even if the changes are bad , it's nothing that can't be tweaked, the people that compare this to NGE are for lack of a better word stupid, NGE was a complete revamped and they deleted the backups so they couldn't go back...this is minor.

What has damaged the community I think is the toxicity form people that reall have no skin in the game but love to see drama...these *** have move the development and CM teams into more of a us Vs them stance, which gives the trolls exactly what they want, because crying about lack of communication and so called draconian forum actions is a good source of drama to.

ZoS hopefully will make some much needed forum changes soon.

How damaging to the community can the toxic forum people be. We are told over and over again how super small the percent of players actually on the forum is. And then the toxic ones would be a smaller percent of the already super small percent. If that is true anything said or done here is all but meaningless in the community.

MCBIZZLE300 · May 2017

All we can do is wait and see, don't pre order if your unsure. Digital copies do not run out!

vamp_emily · May 2017

Knowledge wrote: »

There will be MORE people coming to the game JUST for this expansion as first-time players than there will be people LEAVING.

You seem reasonable and sound smart, but how could you possibly know this? Majority of the people already joined the game in the last 3 years. I think this is the time in the games history where more people will be leaving, than more people joining. Many players have played the game and are ready to move on to something new.

I'm not going to judge the update on what people say about it, because most people on here are just flat out crying about nothing, but If I have to play the game and use nothing but slooow heavy attacks then you might as well kiss my tush good bye and my money bag is coming with me.

waterfairy · May 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

The game ain't gonna die over the patch . There's no where to run to . Where we going to go ? CU was never released . I don't think Star Citizen is ever going to release . AC got postponed . BDO is poop grind fest worse then here . Swtor is crap . WoW is so old I can only log in for nostalgia . There's no real place to run too even if people are unhappy . We are hostages until something decent falls on the market . If you play Skyrim remastered it's a constant reminder you should probably login an feed your horse an check your sales ... There's just no escape !

I ran to Hyrule with the new Zelda game a few weeks ago shortly after the patch notes and never looked back.
It's a great game and I don't have to worry about someone messing up my character 100s of hours after building them just right.

RavenSworn · May 2017

Dubhliam wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I totally agree with you OP.

Change is coming, and there is no progress without change.

Yet people don't like change.

I personally can't wait for Morrowind, as I think it will open up the game for a lot of new players, it will even out the power difference between new players and veterans.
It will also make many sets viable again.

Change CAN be good, it isn't always good though.

The CP changes to Sustain would have been enough IF was accept that Sustain was an issue - and most people don't seem to accept that anyway.

However, where you are very wrong is in Morrowind evening out the power difference between New Players and Veterans. It will do the exact opposite. In the terms ZoS has been using Morrowind has lowered the ceiling by about 6 inches, and lowered the floor by about 60 inches.

There are already numerous threads and posts about what this will do - but basically if you haven't got 600CP don't expect to be able to find a group for end-game content; because without 600CP you'll be a liability - and the nerfs to Sustain and DPS means there's less "wipe prevention" in group content now, so no group will be able to run with someone who is not pulling all of their own weight.

All The Best

Well, ofc new players will suck.
And there will always be those few players that spend exactly .5 seconds thinking about their build abd rotation.

What I meant is that you can no longer spec entirely into damage and still be able to sustain.

Which is a good thing, IMO.

There are tons of sustain sets in the game, but each and every one of them is regarded as trash because only damage sets are valued.

With these changes to sustain we will see a lot of build diversity, because the discrepancies between builds won't be as drastic as they are now.

This^^. So much this.

Loves_guars · May 2017

The naysayers don't get me down... I tried to care for the upcoming changes, but I really can't.

I don't follow Deltia or any youtuber, and I like this game, so I'll just change whatever I need to change and continue playing. I actually think that the changes might be good.

Yes, I'm a TESIII hardcore fan and can't wait to visit Vvardenfell. Also happy that the pvpers got battlegrounds, something that I always wanted when I played more pvp.

I do think that the DLC is overpriced and hope that they won't repeat this next year with another "expansion" like they said.

DMuehlhausen · May 2017

alexkdd99 wrote: »

You posted examples of successes, that doesn't negate the other games that failed. Not saying eso will fail because of this, but that logic makes no sense.

There are people that agree and disagree with pretty much any game changing expansion in most any mmo. Some will fail and some will succeed.

One games success does not mean other games will see the same.

Unless you have a magic crystal that can predict the rise and falls off companies and games then you don't know what will happen with this expansion.

It makes perfect sense when you are just trying to show reasons why not be down or discourage and worried about the launch. We've all seen 100s of negative posts that say nothing positive. Were you on those posts saying that the logic doesn't make sense... I doubt it.. Let somebody be hopeful and move on geez.

waterfairy · May 2017

Rickter wrote: »

The Elder Scrolls Online is much like the company, Google.

It cant fail.

There is absolutely no rival on the market. Especially on console which is (confirmed by developer in a personal conversation) 60-70% of the player population. Seriously, please be logical. what options do console players have for a persistent MMORPG fantasy experience?

Neverwinter? confirmed absolute P2W (not this B.S. about eso being p2w, ya'll dont even know what p2w is until you play Neverwinter)

FFXIV? FF is a great game, not taking that away - its very enjoyable. But, does it let you to loot the interactable environment? Is it fully voiced? can you assassinate just about every NPC you can see? IS IT EVEN ON XBOX?
no. no. no. no .

ok so lets look at PC - what options do you have in terms of ESO's target market/genre? WoW? FFXIV? BDO?

lulz. all hot key cool down mmos. BDO is the only contender in regards to interactable environment and detail and its simply too much of a grind for American audiences.

ESO is it folks. there aint nowhere else to go except quit completely and play something entirely different like Destiny.

Aside from the sheer default aspect - lets talk actual game: It's beautiful, its immersive (easily the best mmo to rp in), its got massive amounts of content, and i could go on.

#SeeYouInVvardenfell

BDO is coming to console...that could "kill this game" if done right as it will be 1 of the few mmorpgs to hit console and will be the new shiny for players to flock to.

Rohamad_Ali · May 2017

Vigarr wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

The game ain't gonna die over the patch . There's no where to run to . Where we going to go ? CU was never released . I don't think Star Citizen is ever going to release . AC got postponed . BDO is poop grind fest worse then here . Swtor is crap . WoW is so old I can only log in for nostalgia . There's no real place to run too even if people are unhappy . We are hostages until something decent falls on the market . If you play Skyrim remastered it's a constant reminder you should probably login an feed your horse an check your sales ... There's just no escape !

I ran to Hyrule with the new Zelda game a few weeks ago shortly after the patch notes and never looked back.
It's a great game and I don't have to worry about someone messing up my character 100s of hours after building them just right.

This is your replacement for ESO ?

Elsonso · May 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

I have never seen so many people wanting a game to fail just over minor mechanics changes. It's very disrespectful to the developers.

These ARE NOT "minor mechanics" changes.

The changes to resource management affect (adversely) EVERY skill used in the game.

Resources and sustain...

It has affected the game, and this is actually intended. It is not that ZOS did this without realizing. The response they have made makes it more than clear that all of this is completely intended. More than that, they are continuing to run the numbers based on how people are playing on PTS, and they have not yet made sweeping changes. This means that whatever people are doing on PTS is in line with what they are expecting, to a degree, and they have not felt it necessary to make any sweeping changes. Granted, they could make sweeping changes in any of the two patches up until May 22, but I would not hold my breath.

The real question is to what degree players are adversely impacted. Reading the forums, you would think that the world is coming to an end. I think this has more to do with the people in the forum than anything else. The people in the forum represent a group of players that are adversely impacted. It is only natural that they would be upset. I have always maintained that the forum does not even represent a valid cross section of the overall game population. The extension of this is that ZOS cannot use the forum response as a measure of the impact to all the players. Yeah, what is said here is important to us, but I think that we hold our views to be more important than they really are.

So, based on my PTS testing, plus the various levels of achievements in the game and estimations from this thread, that the majority of the players in the game will not really be impacted negatively. More than that, they may even benefit from the changes, in the long term.

New players are not going to care about Templar hearts. A lot of existing players are not going to care about Templar hearts. They will go about their daily lives and continue to fail to meet the Templar expectations of the top end players. They will meet the expectations of their peers and they will probably have fun doing the content that they are doing.

In the end, all of this will boil down to a series of small and relatively minor changes that ZOS will have to make to adjust for the changes in resource management. These changes will address some of the "1-percenter" issues, and will really be beneficial to the rest of the players.

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Give the Classes back 1) Unique Class Identity

I do agree that they are spending too much time homogenizing the base classes in an effort to reverse type-casting. I have no problems with type-casting. Certain classes should excel in areas that naturally apply to them. Templar is obviously a strong healing role. It should natively have major mending, if any other class can have it.

Yeah, I think they could do something to reverse these changes. However, I don't feel strongly enough about this to say the game is going to die if they don't.

ObsidianMichi wrote: »

Honestly, this game has been declared dead so many times that there's no reason to even take the naysayers seriously anymore. This happens with every single major change, and sometimes even the minor ones. At this point, whether they want to or not, they just sound hysterical.

Seriously. And they say there is no necromancy that players can participate in. This game has more lives than a clowder of cats.

starkerealm · May 2017

Rickter wrote: »

Neverwinter? confirmed absolute P2W (not this B.S. about eso being p2w, ya'll dont even know what p2w is until you play Neverwinter)

#SeeYouInVvardenfell

I played STO and Champions Online. Do I get a pass, or do I have to take remedial courses in NW to learn what P2W is?

#SeeYouInVvardenfellMotherFetchers

starkerealm · May 2017

lordrichter wrote: »

ObsidianMichi wrote: »

Honestly, this game has been declared dead so many times that there's no reason to even take the naysayers seriously anymore. This happens with every single major change, and sometimes even the minor ones. At this point, whether they want to or not, they just sound hysterical.

Seriously. And they say there is no necromancy that players can participate in. This game has more lives than a clowder of cats.

Who says that? I mean, we can't even keep threads on the forums dead, without someone finding an old post on Werewolves from 2015, and dragging it back up to the front page.

Dubhliam · May 2017

ObsidianMichi wrote: »

Honestly, this game has been declared dead so many times that there's no reason to even take the naysayers seriously anymore. This happens with every single major change, and sometimes even the minor ones. At this point, whether they want to or not, they just sound hysterical.

Just before the PTS and the first patch notes I commented with my guildies how great ESO is, and how it is always improving.

Yet if we are judging by the forum, ESO should have died at least 5 times already.

Don't get sucked into the negativity of the doomsday prophets.
Play the game.
Stop reading the forum for a while.
Wait for the update, then see how it goes.
CHANGE is inevitable, so you might aswell start theorycrafting instead of wasting your energy in negative whine threads.
They never did anyone any good.

ObsidianMichi · May 2017

Dubhliam wrote: »

Just before the PTS and the first patch notes I commented with my guildies how great ESO is, and how it is always improving.

5 times this year alone, at least. And yet, I just ran into players from beta and the early days debating which class was the most godly and how people were always asking about where you got the Imperial Horse in Stonefalls Zone chat. The amount of times I've seen a tiger mount run by is stunning, frankly. This game has pretty fantastic retention.

Since B2P, the devs have held up their content promises. New stuff is always being added, there are always new zones to do, and I do hope that we'll one day get the whole map filled in. The game is totally different from how it was at launch.

I can't wait to see what we get from Morrowind!

Rickter wrote: »

Neverwinter? confirmed absolute P2W (not this B.S. about eso being p2w, ya'll dont even know what p2w is until you play Neverwinter)

#SeeYouInVvardenfell

Oh no, I got enough of Cryptic's p2w BS in STO and CO. They were done for when Perfect World bought them, but were already heading in that direction anyway. Neverwinter is totally a Perfect World style game, and they are P2W all the way. If ZOS were like them, you'd never run out of crap to gamble on in the boxes instead of actually having a hard limit and almost no way to buy them (lobi crystals barely count in Cryptic's case, as that's a gamble to and there's no hard number).

#SeeYouinVvardenfell?

Not if I see you first!

Elsonso · May 2017

starkerealm wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

ObsidianMichi wrote: »

Honestly, this game has been declared dead so many times that there's no reason to even take the naysayers seriously anymore. This happens with every single major change, and sometimes even the minor ones. At this point, whether they want to or not, they just sound hysterical.

Seriously. And they say there is no necromancy that players can participate in. This game has more lives than a clowder of cats.

Who says that? I mean, we can't even keep threads on the forums dead, without someone finding an old post on Werewolves from 2015, and dragging it back up to the front page.

Eh. Good point. I stand corrected.

Thealteregoroman · May 2017

Khenarthi wrote: »

I don't really care about those other MMOs. As long as ESO lasts until TES6 is released, I'm happy.

omg right?!?! thats what I am saying lol.....

waterfairy · May 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Vigarr wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

The game ain't gonna die over the patch . There's no where to run to . Where we going to go ? CU was never released . I don't think Star Citizen is ever going to release . AC got postponed . BDO is poop grind fest worse then here . Swtor is crap . WoW is so old I can only log in for nostalgia . There's no real place to run too even if people are unhappy . We are hostages until something decent falls on the market . If you play Skyrim remastered it's a constant reminder you should probably login an feed your horse an check your sales ... There's just no escape !

I ran to Hyrule with the new Zelda game a few weeks ago shortly after the patch notes and never looked back.
It's a great game and I don't have to worry about someone messing up my character 100s of hours after building them just right.

This is your replacement for ESO ?

Lol temporary replacement and thats not the right zelda...the new one is pretty good, don't sleep on it.

gard · May 2017

Based on what they have done on PTS so far, I have unsubbed my accounts and stopped playing.

And no, even if I could give you my stuff, I wouldn't. That's how much hate I have for ZOS for destroying my beloved game.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · May 2017

As others have said, you can't compare these changes to other games. In all my years of MMOs, I've never seen such massive gameplay changes. You could argue that this is more significant than WoW's decision to move away from actual talent trees. With that change, it didn't affect HOW you played the game - it didn't change the core combat, just rotations and whatnot. These PTS changes literally change how combat works in endgame, how are more people not finding that scary?

Heavy attacking isn't fun. I'll repeat, heavy attacking isn't fun. At least, not with this game and its current design. This is the only statement that matters. ZOS are trying to build combat around a mechanic that is not fun, and that is why this situation is unique compared to other MMOs. Any other argument is irrelevant.

So sure, there will be plenty of new arrivals in morrowind. Tons, even! Between general expansion returnees and the TES fanboys flocking to the game for nostalgia's sake, the game's population will swell to crazy levels...for a time. But, when these casuals and new players realize that they run out of resources in a few abilities and need to sit through countless heavy attack animations to sustain themselves, how long do you think they'll stay? They aren't invested in the game, as soon as they conclude "this isn't fun" they'll log out and never look back.

And yeah, I know I'm know I'm making assumptions here. But I think these assumptions are pretty well-founded. Consider the average gamer. The average RPG player / TES fan might have a bit more patience than the average gamer, but not much. These are the majority of these "new" players coming in. Consider that, and consider a heavy attack meta.

SnubbS · May 2017

I disagree with the "This won't hurt the game sentiment" that you have, but I can respect your opinion because it isn't going to kill the game. No one is really saying that, they're saying that the game is going to be less fun, I agree with that sentiment. The casual players of any game will play said game regardless of what changes are made—good or bad. So the crux of what you're saying is true.

What I absolutely disagree with is you comparing this game to WoW—no no no, this game is nothing like as big as WoW. Any WoW expansion is going to perform well because of the sheer mass of the games population. They have way more of those "We'd play anything with Warcraft on it" players. It's like comparing random console shooters to Call of Duty—it's probably a worse comparison than that. There's 11,000 twitch viewers watching WoW as I type this—I guarantee there aren't even 11,000 ESO players online right now on Xbox NA.

Elsonso · May 2017

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

As others have said, you can't compare these changes to other games. In all my years of MMOs, I've never seen such massive gameplay changes.

Across the whole game, this is not that massive. Maybe to you, and obviously to a lot of people on the forum, it is. I think you are looking at this through the hysteria. It isn't that way to me, and I can't be the only one. As a matter of fact, I think I am far from alone in this.

Heavy Attack is a tool to regenerate resources. One tool. One that they introduced quite a while ago. It is one of several tools. It is not supposed to be The Answer. Yes, you can do HA to regain resources, but you don't do it all the time.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

When these casuals and new players realize that they run out of resources in a few abilities and need to sit through countless heavy attack animations to sustain themselves, how long do you think they'll stay?

This is no different from today, and yet people are staying around. Presumably.

Akevoriath · May 2017

I think people forget that the people who say the new changes will ruin the game or the game will die etc, don't actually want the game to die, they are annoyed and upset because they WANT the game to live and be fun, they just think that ZOS are making bad decision after bad decision, and they don't look like they will be stopping any time soon judging from their apathy regarding problems that have been plaguing the game for months, if not years at this point. It's not that they are excited to see the downfall of a game they have obviously purchased to enjoy, they don't come on the forums just to say "the end is nigh" for *** and giggles, they do it because they don't see any hope left for this game and they don't know what to do about it.

From a ZOS employee's point of view, I can see that this would wear them thin very quickly and lead to their lack of patience and even resentment of their player base, which might even lead them to want to NOT fix issues in the game because they see the players as such rude, ungrateful, disrespectful people who continually bash them.

Both sides need to be more considerate, people who just blindly ignore all the faults of this game need to open their eyes and the forum trolls need to get a hobby

Mojmir · May 2017

Knowledge wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

You posted examples of successes, that doesn't negate the other games that failed. Not saying eso will fail because of this, but that logic makes no sense.

There are people that agree and disagree with pretty much any game changing expansion in most any mmo. Some will fail and some will succeed.

One games success does not mean other games will see the same.

We will see who will be right and who will be wrong in the coming months. At that juncture, we should return to this thread to see who was right and who was wrong.

In recent memory no expansion has "killed a game". The closest example is StarWars: Galaxies NGE. That's one game out of how many?

publish 16 was the final nail for UO, now its mere nostalgia that keeps the game going

Mojmir · May 2017

Balamoor wrote: »

In reality the number of people who are legitimately concerned and who have made logical arguments are infinitesimally small, there is a lot of drama llama "the sky is falling" trolling which I think the CM's are getting more than a bit tired of considering some of their actions over the past few days.

I think even if the changes are bad , it's nothing that can't be tweaked, the people that compare this to NGE are for lack of a better word stupid, NGE was a complete revamped and they deleted the backups so they couldn't go back...this is minor.

What has damaged the community I think is the toxicity from people that really have no skin in the game, the "I left the game but Im still posting types" or the "I love me some drama /popcorn" types.....these *** have move the development and CM teams into more of a us vs them stance, which gives the trolls exactly what they want, because crying about lack of communication and so called draconian forum actions is a good source of drama too.

ZoS hopefully will make some much needed forum changes soon, because as awesome as our in game community is the forum Community is a hybrid of WoW and LoL.

the term "toxicity" is also getting old, those who use it often lack skin as well.

Valkysas154 · May 2017

The best examples i can give do to personal experience from being there would be Guild wars 2 HOT expansion
ppl cried on the forums for 3 months about how the game is no longer casual friendly and every thing in the expansion being group only even the trash mobs half a year later game is pretty much dead compared to what it had in players be for

This is why i am worried about the MW expansion ppl don't like to admit that now a days casuals out number the hard core
and i am not seeing any thing good for casuals i wont even be able to use my s/b for looks why i solo do to HA regen
and i am magic based