Do not let the naysayers get you down. - There is Hope.

Silver_Strider · May 2017

Knowledge wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I can't speak for WoW but I'm calling several different forms of BS on Heavenward being a success at launch.

Apart from the Bard complaining about Wanderer's Paeon, there was also several very real issues overall with the game at Heavensward's launch. The fact there was only 1 dungeon in the Expert Tier group finder, that a composition of Paladin tank, Astrologian Healer, and Bard+Machinist DPS was a GUARANTEED failure group due to being unable to meet the DPS check of the 1st boss in that dungeon, that the 1st set of end game raids were so impossibly difficult that only 1% of the 1% could even clear it and that the introduction of Diadem MURDERED end game raiding due to handing out identical, or even better, loot than raids made Heavensward an AWFUL expansion at it's onset.

The game has recovered and I greatly enjoy it but please, do not act that Heavensward had a flawless launch.

Despite all of those shortcomings the expansion sold more copies than anticipated and pushed Final Fantasy XIV to a new level.

I'm not arguing that Heavensward didn't eventually become a rousing success but SE and ZOS are 2 very different companies, that have very different people behind the reins of their games and comparing the history of FFXIV and ESO is like trying to compare Oil and Water.

SE had the sensibility to close FFXIV after it was received so poorly by the fanbase and brought it back after improving it in FFXIV: A Realm Reborn and becoming the game it is today. Heavensward was awful at launch but subsequent updates turned it around into a once again great game.

ZOS has "remade" ESO with Tamriel Unlimited and One Tamriel but the game hasn't shown much as much growth or improvement. Sure, improvements have been made (Stamina builds aren't a total joke like at launch, and it has some other added features that weren't present at launch, such as the text chat on consoles) but the game still is heavy riddled with bugs that have persisted since day 1. Class imbalances are still very prevalent and ZOS keeps either ignoring the problem or fixing in it such a roundabout way that it negatively affects the player base.

SE doused the fires of their burning game quickly and effectively whereas ZOS is throwing more fuel on the fire, while scrambling around looking for a fire extinguisher.

Maybe Morrowind will be a rousing success and make ESO a great game but given ZOS's track record, I wouldn't count on it.

Elsterchen · May 2017

Honestly, why do ppl always start sentences with: "I know from other MMOs..."?

Who cares?

ESO isn't "other" MMOs ... its not even an MMO in a "classical" design. The playerbase is very different, evenso many "classical"-MMO players got stucked here. Let me tell you: You are NOT the majority, and frankly NO-ONE cares about your gaming in MMO-XYZ. Why? Simply because this isn't MMO-XYZ ... if anyone here like MMO-XYZ, they would play it.

THIS IS ESO! Stop making assumtions on whatever happens in whatever other game. Its nonsense.

Knowledge · May 2017

Elsterchen wrote: »

Honestly, why do ppl always start sentences with: "I know from other MMOs..."?

Who cares?

ESO isn't "other" MMOs ... its not even an MMO in a "classical" design. The playerbase is very different, evenso many "classical"-MMO players got stucked here. Let me tell you: You are NOT the majority, and frankly NO-ONE cares about your gaming in MMO-XYZ. Why? Simply because this isn't MMO-XYZ ... if anyone here like MMO-XYZ, they would play it.

THIS IS ESO! Stop making assumtions on whatever happens in whatever other game. Its nonsense.

What you're saying can be likened to a statement like " Learning history is pointless "'

You learn from the past.

Elsterchen · May 2017

Knowledge wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

Honestly, why do ppl always start sentences with: "I know from other MMOs..."?

Who cares?

ESO isn't "other" MMOs ... its not even an MMO in a "classical" design. The playerbase is very different, evenso many "classical"-MMO players got stucked here. Let me tell you: You are NOT the majority, and frankly NO-ONE cares about your gaming in MMO-XYZ. Why? Simply because this isn't MMO-XYZ ... if anyone here like MMO-XYZ, they would play it.

THIS IS ESO! Stop making assumtions on whatever happens in whatever other game. Its nonsense.

What you're saying can be likened to a statement like " Learning history is pointless "'

You learn from the past.

Yes, you do learn from the past. But the only thing ZOS/Zeni has in common with other companies creating games is that they sell a game. I guess you will find all possible ways of how "selling a game" may work out when you look at all gaming companies. You will even find examples where the same approach lead to the rise of one game/company while it lead to the downfall of another.

Point is: MMO-XYZ is just as good as an example "to what will most probably happen to ESO" - like furtune tellers card deck. The situation of MMO-XYZ, its product as well as its customer is DIFFERENT from the product and customer buying ESO. So one thing everyone learns from history is: A tactic's success is always situational.
Now, please explain to me: which MMO is in exactly the same situation and selling a comparable product ?

...?

See, why comparing doesn't make sense, here?

Knowledge · May 2017

I have never seen so many people wanting a game to fail just over minor mechanics changes. It's very disrespectful to the developers.

sadownik · May 2017

@Knowledge the change is anything but minior.

wesmont65 · May 2017

Blanco wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

The game ain't gonna die over the patch . There's no where to run to . Where we going to go ? CU was never released . I don't think Star Citizen is ever going to release . AC got postponed . BDO is poop grind fest worse then here . Swtor is crap . WoW is so old I can only log in for nostalgia . There's no real place to run too even if people are unhappy . We are hostages until something decent falls on the market . If you play Skyrim remastered it's a constant reminder you should probably login an feed your horse an check your sales ... There's just no escape !

It's true. There's nowhere really to run.

WoW is so stale now.

Guild Wars is garbage.

I'm playing eso for the long run (also have invested a lot of $$ in eso), so I am hoping the game can live through the patch.

I agree totally. ESO is currently the best MMO on the market and it will survive after the patch, we'll adapt and continue on.

pattyLtd · May 2017

Knowledge wrote: »

I have never seen so many people wanting a game to fail just over minor mechanics changes. It's very disrespectful to the developers.

You got this backwards imo.

None of us want this game to fail in fact i'm fairly sure most posting here love the game alot and take it to heart when they feel it's going in the wrong direction.

They have this large group of people that love their product enough to argue about it all day on a forum and many even provide valuable and thoughtfull feedback. I think they should make more use of that instead of just ignore it and throw in a meaningless bone every now and then to make us believe they do listen.

Also the concern isn't about the game dying, it will survive this patch I have no doubt but if it's about "surviving" a major update like this then something is very wrong with it.

Mondini · May 2017

Zeni are banking on players leaving and new ones coming.

RavenSworn · May 2017

I think it boils down to the fact that many people seem to have invested a significant of their time to this game(even if they think a year or so is a huge investment as compared to the years some players have in other mmos) and aren't willing to accept changes.

I don't agree to some of the changes made by the developers but it doesn't mean I won't support these changes. They had a vision for the game at start, somehow along the way it changed. Now they are trying to rein in, in the hopes that they can retain back a vestige of the vision they had initially.

I honestly think these changes would be for the better of the game, and would really hope they do well in the coming years. While it's true this might be the only 'good' mmo to get into, then all the more we should try and support them.

pattyLtd · May 2017

Mondini wrote: »

Zeni are banking on players leaving and new ones coming.

Sorry, i seen that theory more here but it makes zero sense to me!
They don't bank on players leaving at all and it's not like new ones are coming because they made these changes.

MagnusBlackmane · May 2017

For the past year I've been stalking the forum and using the naysayers post as comedic relief... Now I poke at them in their threads, it's even more fun that way.

As for ESO, it's a game. My personal favorite and time consuming - also it's going thorough a personality crisis - sure... but still it's just a game.

Sausage · May 2017

Knowledge wrote: »

You could be the next great theory crafter to replace Deltia.

Deltia can be replaced by Surveys. Funcom did it with Conan Exiles, for example. It would be so fun to see Surveys after 3 year of launch. If they started to do Survey it could work as minor PR-thing too.

Darlgon · May 2017

Knowledge wrote: »

Moreover, I want this to be a time for opportunity for you. You could be the next great theory crafter to replace Deltia.

This made me laugh. Being a famous streamer and pumping out popcorn vids for the masses does not make one a great theory crafter.

Sosderosii · May 2017

I just don't know how will my nightblade survive in pvp the long time it takes to make a heavy attack in the conditions that even a 0.5 seconds mistake of not dodging a crystal shard means health is low enough for insta-executes.

I am not sure how it will work though, there is a moderate posibility for this changes to increase my survivability(dodge roll might actually mean something if you can't spam that instant attack ability forever) as a stamina NB and if so I will invest in Morrowind.

If not, I will just check the patch notes from that point on until I see something that gives hope.

Sosderosii · May 2017

I just don't know how will my nightblade survive in pvp the long time it takes to make a heavy attack in the conditions that even a 0.5 seconds mistake of not dodging a crystal shard means health is low enough for insta-executes.

I am not sure how it will work though, there is a moderate posibility for this changes to increase my survivability(dodge roll might actually mean something if you can't spam that instant attack ability forever) as a stamina NB and if so I will invest in Morrowind.

If not, I will just check the patch notes from that point on until I see something that gives hope.

Flameheart · May 2017

Tholian1 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

The game ain't gonna die over the patch . There's no where to run to . Where we going to go ? CU was never released . I don't think Star Citizen is ever going to release . AC got postponed . BDO is poop grind fest worse then here . Swtor is crap . WoW is so old I can only log in for nostalgia . There's no real place to run too even if people are unhappy . We are hostages until something decent falls on the market . If you play Skyrim remastered it's a constant reminder you should probably login an feed your horse an check your sales ... There's just no escape !

It's true. There's nowhere really to run.

WoW is so stale now.

Guild Wars is garbage.

I'm playing eso for the long run (also have invested a lot of $$ in eso), so I am hoping the game can live through the patch.

The game will live through the patch. The worst I see happening is not enough people falling in love with the new heavy attack to sustain combat. If that happens, they will make major changes again in the next big patch for "The health of the game".

This. In opposition to their statement concerning ESO's action-heavy playstyle the new heavy attack builds will take a lot of speed and action out of that combat system. Skilled players maybe won't like it, less skilled players and/or users of game pads will maybe like it, because rotations will get easier. So the gap closing between "roof" and "bottom" might work.

I am 49 years old and able to achieve up to 35k-40k raid dps in certain encounters in that game (but not 50k+ as a really exceptional player in the progress domain will do it, ok, I have no Mahlstrom staff though). I guess the new playstyle will fit for me.

What the new playstyle won't change is the attitude of people who don't care a *** for game mechanics, builds and synergies. So you will still encounter players from hell in PUGs.

Otherwise imho there is currently no alternative to ESO on the MMO market. As already said, Star Citizen release seems to be just a rumour and all this new hyped MMOs like Black Desert are a *** grindfest without real endgame content. BD reminds me how it is possible, that a MMO developer can make the same mistake as Conan already did.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · May 2017

Knowledge wrote: »

I have never seen so many people wanting a game to fail just over minor mechanics changes. It's very disrespectful to the developers.

These ARE NOT "minor mechanics" changes.

The changes to resource management affect (adversely) EVERY skill used in the game.

The changes to Templar have wrenched the heart and soul out of the class and stomped them into the dirt.

The way most proc buffs have been removed from almost every skill and collectively given to Warden smacks of 2 things 1) a P2W incentiviser, and 2) desperation to make Warden relevant.

The only existing class not significantly adversely affected is the Mag Sorc (and have a guess what Mr Wrobel plays), everything else has been so significantly changed that they no longer play anything like they did prior to Morrowind.

This feels much more like a "complete relaunch" than it does the "minor mechanics changes" you allude to.

I fundamentally disagree with the new ZoS ethos of homogenising all classes so everyone can be everything. Doing that reduces choice, reduces diversity and erodes class identity.

It should be enough for each Class to be able to fulfill any two of the Trinity Roles and then have a third - ideally with a unique identity - Skill Line.

I'd opt for something like Templar having 1 DPS Skill Line, 1 Healing Skill Line and utility skill line that focuses on Debuffing and CCing enemies with the use of Holy Light - maybe a CC Skill called Chains Of Light that holds a Mob in place for 10 seconds, that kind of thing. For DK I'd have a Tank line, and DPS line, and then a line for Buffing Allies - maybe by placing shields on allies that transfer some of the damage to the DK, or by buffing mitigation against Fire Damage for example.

Give the Classes back 1) Unique Class Identity and 2) Group Utility.

Morrowind has all but eradicated both.

All The Best

Dubhliam · May 2017

I totally agree with you OP.

Change is coming, and there is no progress without change.

Yet people don't like change.

I personally can't wait for Morrowind, as I think it will open up the game for a lot of new players, it will even out the power difference between new players and veterans.
It will also make many sets viable again.

NewBlacksmurf · May 2017

Odd comparisons as I often left WoW prior to expansions and those expansion changes are what bring millions back whereas in this games situation, most often dlc updates push thousands away.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · May 2017

Dubhliam wrote: »

I totally agree with you OP.

Change is coming, and there is no progress without change.

Yet people don't like change.

I personally can't wait for Morrowind, as I think it will open up the game for a lot of new players, it will even out the power difference between new players and veterans.
It will also make many sets viable again.

Change CAN be good, it isn't always good though.

The CP changes to Sustain would have been enough IF was accept that Sustain was an issue - and most people don't seem to accept that anyway.

However, where you are very wrong is in Morrowind evening out the power difference between New Players and Veterans. It will do the exact opposite. In the terms ZoS has been using Morrowind has lowered the ceiling by about 6 inches, and lowered the floor by about 60 inches.

There are already numerous threads and posts about what this will do - but basically if you haven't got 600CP don't expect to be able to find a group for end-game content; because without 600CP you'll be a liability - and the nerfs to Sustain and DPS means there's less "wipe prevention" in group content now, so no group will be able to run with someone who is not pulling all of their own weight.

All The Best

Xsorus · May 2017

Just wanted to throw this in...

Stamina builds have never sucked in this game...

In fact at launch I could flat out 4 shot you with Shield Bash alone.

Nevermind later on just flat out killing instantly if you were a vampire.

colig · May 2017

Knowledge wrote: »

I have never seen so many people wanting a game to fail just over minor mechanics changes. It's very disrespectful to the developers.

I haven't seen people who want the game to fail. I have seen many people unhappy enough to voice their concerns here. Obviously, some are going to be harsher than others, but there's definitely useful insight to be found amidst the furor. If ZOS wanted complete adulation for their creation, they wouldn't have made a forum.

Pixel_Zealot · May 2017

That's all well and good but then you get games like Rift. They launched their new expansion called Nightmare Tide without planning their end-game content or not sharing the end-game content with their player-base. But their expansion launched successfully, it wasn't the busiest the game has been but there we're enough players to fill the servers.
As soon as the community reached end-game with insane RNG and endless grind. You can imagine how their forums looked with "nay-sayers". They ignored them and continued executing Phase 2 of their expansion.

-Before phase 3 launched they lost 70% of their player base.
-They instructed their marketing team to launch a campaign with the tagline "Come back to Rift" for a new (thought through expansion).
-They lost another 25% of their remaining base 6 months after their third expansion.

Don't make a forum saying ZoS should ignore people's negative comments, simply because they are negative. Don't state 'facts' made from baseless assumptions. They should find out what people are unhappy about and address the issue accordingly. Not simply ignore them.

GreenhaloX · May 2017

Knowledge wrote: »

In the past decade I have been a part of many MMO expansion launches. I have seen the best and the worst in the aforementioned decade and I want to reassure this community that it's par for the course.

I'd like to start off by using one of the most recent examples of an expansion launch - World of Warcraft: Legion. In World of Warcraft: Legion a large group of veteran players would echo across the forums complaining about PVP changes (the removal of PVP gear) and there was even a group of players that formed a "no fly - no buy" group which stated they would not buy the game unless flying as IN the game at launch. Blizzard didn't comply with either demand and Legion launched with great success.

Moving on, Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward saw a so-called exodus in the form of many Bards over "Wanderer's Paean" requiring them to remain stationary. SquareEnix did not comply with the Bards pleas and the expansion launched with great success.

I could go on and on but I think my point can now be made. This game isn't going to collapse in a few months as people have said, they aren't going to close the servers down, and I can assure you that these forum posters represent a minority of people in this game. There will be MORE people coming to the game JUST for this expansion as first-time players than there will be people LEAVING.

This happens every time a major change is made in a game that impacts the upper tier player base. These changes aren't going to ruin the fun of the casual player and it most certainly won't kill the 'elite' or hardcore tier. There are those of us that will simply adapt and not become a victim of evolution.

Moreover, I want this to be a time for opportunity for you. You could be the next great theory crafter to replace Deltia. Or perhaps you could be an authority on your class if you try hard enough - people will look to you for answers. There are benefits to everything and this expansion launch is more of a new chapter for the community at large.

Lastly, I am glad that ZeniMax remains steadfast in their intent to shape the game in the direction they want to.

See you guys in Vvarderfell.

Good optimism here. Good for you for putting this out. You are the rays of sunshine on a dark and gloomy day. You are that lighthouse beacon for those sailors on a dark and stormy water. You are that hope of the force after all Jedis have been wiped out. Kudos, man.. but *beep* *beep* this game and all things ESO when things keep on getting nerfed!

Hammy01 · May 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

The game ain't gonna die over the patch . There's no where to run to . Where we going to go ? CU was never released . I don't think Star Citizen is ever going to release . AC got postponed . BDO is poop grind fest worse then here . Swtor is crap . WoW is so old I can only log in for nostalgia . There's no real place to run too even if people are unhappy . We are hostages until something decent falls on the market . If you play Skyrim remastered it's a constant reminder you should probably login an feed your horse an check your sales ... There's just no escape !

This x100... Especially if you play on console. There is nothing else out there for us!

Galwylin · May 2017

First off, I'm not rooting or worried about ESO. They've done what they've done. Nothing on my part. But if you start losing people because of a new DLC that makes the game less fun, I don't see the need to stick around. I guess I could just hang around and play house but that's a bit lack luster. We know the game is going to require changes in how we play but why make changes that make the game unfun in any manner. Now that's debatable on what fun is.

I happen to use a lot of heavy attacks already because I haven't gotten my sustain at a good spot and really dislike being out of resources. So, I worry when its going to be harder on my play simply because someone wants it to be. I have other options. I don't plan to play any game that isn't giving me a good time. One reason I've gotten more accomplish this past month that the three before. I'm getting ready for the possibility of the game going downhill and prepared to jump ship. Things don't sound good but I'll wait till I get my hands on them. But god have I come to hate the term balanced. I long for the day when we can get things working properly and add more to the game without balance being the only thing ever considered.

Dubhliam · May 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I totally agree with you OP.

Change is coming, and there is no progress without change.

Yet people don't like change.

I personally can't wait for Morrowind, as I think it will open up the game for a lot of new players, it will even out the power difference between new players and veterans.
It will also make many sets viable again.

Change CAN be good, it isn't always good though.

The CP changes to Sustain would have been enough IF was accept that Sustain was an issue - and most people don't seem to accept that anyway.

However, where you are very wrong is in Morrowind evening out the power difference between New Players and Veterans. It will do the exact opposite. In the terms ZoS has been using Morrowind has lowered the ceiling by about 6 inches, and lowered the floor by about 60 inches.

There are already numerous threads and posts about what this will do - but basically if you haven't got 600CP don't expect to be able to find a group for end-game content; because without 600CP you'll be a liability - and the nerfs to Sustain and DPS means there's less "wipe prevention" in group content now, so no group will be able to run with someone who is not pulling all of their own weight.

All The Best

Well, ofc new players will suck.
And there will always be those few players that spend exactly .5 seconds thinking about their build abd rotation.

What I meant is that you can no longer spec entirely into damage and still be able to sustain.

Which is a good thing, IMO.

There are tons of sustain sets in the game, but each and every one of them is regarded as trash because only damage sets are valued.

With these changes to sustain we will see a lot of build diversity, because the discrepancies between builds won't be as drastic as they are now.

Coilbox · May 2017

Dubhliam wrote: »

I totally agree with you OP.

Change is coming, and there is no progress without change.

Yet people don't like change.

I personally can't wait for Morrowind, as I think it will open up the game for a lot of new players, it will even out the power difference between new players and veterans.
It will also make many sets viable again.

This is just stupid...

First of all, in what way Morrowind will 'open up the game for a lot of new players'? The game is open enough so everyone can start playing just now without any need of new patches, actually is even more opened now before the next patch hits... If with 'opened up' you mean begginer friendly or something like that, cause trust me, the next patch will be anything but that.

And second, and more important, why in hell the difference between new players and veterans should be even out? If someone spent more time and dedication than you in the game (or any other place or aspect) its fair that he/she would be more powerful or better than you, its logic. And taking away that difference would be disrespectful to veteran players and the time and dedication they put into the game.

This obviously applies to pvp, cause in pve its more about cooperation than competition. Even tho' if you pvp and fight against someone with 600cp, fully geared and stuff... dont spect to beat him/her easily if you have 50cp and havent done even half of what this other player has done in the game, that makes no sense. Even further, there is a no CP campaign available for people who want to pvp without champion points.

So no, the game wont be more 'open' to new players, and if you want a closer combat more based on skills other than champion points, go to the no cp campaign, its already there.

Cheers.

starkerealm · May 2017

DragonBound wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

alexkdd99 wrote: »

You posted examples of successes, that doesn't negate the other games that failed. Not saying eso will fail because of this, but that logic makes no sense.

There are people that agree and disagree with pretty much any game changing expansion in most any mmo. Some will fail and some will succeed.

One games success does not mean other games will see the same.

We will see who will be right and who will be wrong in the coming months. At that juncture, we should return to this thread to see who was right and who was wrong.

In recent memory no expansion has "killed a game". The closest example is StarWars: Galaxies NGE. That's one game out of how many?

Correction tons of changes have ruined other mmorpgs without expansions, I have been in multiple mmorpgs and watched it happen.

For example: The decision to launch APB.