And since we've been playing this game where resources are not a factor for at least (at least) a year a lot of people assume that's how the game's supposed to be played. This period of resource-irrelevance is fully on ZOS though. It's not great they're trying to fix it only now, but it HAD to happen.
This is the first example from an mmo that i ever played when people rage at devs for making the game HARDER and more complex. I've seen people being mad when devs streamlined classes and game mechanics. I've seen people complain when devs kept nerfing the content. But this is the first time when i see people shouting and swearing when devs are trying to make a non-cooldown and non-downtime gameplay to rely on SOMETHING.
You don't like to use heavies to sustain? Then WHAT would you like to use instead? Nothing? Sustain should 'just happen'? What is YOUR job then? To perform really simple (compared to many other mmos) rotations and don't stand in red? Is THAT what you're trying this game combat to be? Is that the pinnacle of mmo experience?
So what are you complaining about again?
@Saturn@Dorrino
The thing is, PvE has been the same way pretty much since the endgame community began, and hasn't faced a change to the way it works on this scale before. You say that resources haven't been a factor for at least a year, but that isn't correct. Since Update 6 in 2015 the game has worked the same way it does now, where rotations are what matter for DPS. It also worked that way before, to an extent, although back then there was such a vast imbalance between classes that it was overshadowed.
I don't understand why you would write something like, "This is the first example from an mmo that i ever played when people rage at devs for making the game HARDER and more complex." If you don't understand that people are naturally adverse to change, then you need to study a little bit more, because it's something you always see no matter what kind of change is made, and no matter where.
Further, a change so very late and unannounced 3 years into the lifespan of an MMO
is of course going to cause rage amongst those who are best at the most optimal system, i.e. the "focus on rotation / leave resource-management to the healers" system that endgame is currently all about.
Also, from all the feedback, which you seem to have ignored, it has already been noted that the veteran Halls of Fabrication has been completed several times on the PTS, with some people talking about hardmode also having been conquered.
Which part of that says the game has become "HARDER and more complex" as you so eloquently put it?
The fact that the new trial has already been completed, when vMaw wasn't ever fully completed on the PTS when it was available, speaks volumes about the lack in difficulty of the new trial, as well as the game overall.
And as such I don't agree with your assesment that the game has become more complex and difficult, because of the sustain changes. To achieve a more difficult and complex game they would have to perform a major change to the entire game and its systems, but as they has been left in the same state, the rule that DPS beats Mechanics will still be true, and as such those with the highest DPS will prevail.
Heavy attack builds are a regression of skillful play, as they require a lot less to be possible than the current endgame builds. ESO on live right now has a fairly horizontal progression model, where gear does matter, but not as much as a good rotation and usage of skills, meaning that a player with the best-in-slot gear who is not able to fully utilise it will be easily beaten in DPS by someone who has a better rotation and build. With the changes forcing people into heavy attack builds, as they are the best in terms of overall DPS (as noted by several skilful players on this very forum), we are seeing a shift towards more vertical progression, as the skill required to pull off these builds are significantly less than what the top builds on Live demand, meaning gear will become more important for high dps than is currently the case. If the barrier for entry is lowered too much and anyone can simply waltz in while wearing the best gear and beat any given content, then ESO will no longer be indistinguishable from an MMO like WoW.
I think it will definitely be interesting to see where ESO goes from here, and while I'm obviously dismayed at this nonsensical change I will stick around and see how people adapt to it or if the game falters. It is very likely that if there is no skill progression to be had that the endgame community will turn into a swing-door, as some predict, mirroring MMOs with vertical progression that has its members replaced every content cycle.
@Saturn@Dorrino
The thing is, PvE has been the same way pretty much since the endgame community began, and hasn't faced a change to the way it works on this scale before. You say that resources haven't been a factor for at least a year, but that isn't correct. Since Update 6 in 2015 the game has worked the same way it does now, where rotations are what matter for DPS. It also worked that way before, to an extent, although back then there was such a vast imbalance between classes that it was overshadowed.
So it indeed true that 'resources haven't been a factor for at least a year'?:) 'At least' means 'one year or more'.
Additionally this is not correct that pve was the same in terms of resources management starting at 'Update 6 in 2015'. Each patch that increased CP cap improved resource sustain. Thus sustain gradually have been moving from being a 'minor factor' to being irrelevant.I don't understand why you would write something like, "This is the first example from an mmo that i ever played when people rage at devs for making the game HARDER and more complex." If you don't understand that people are naturally adverse to change, then you need to study a little bit more, because it's something you always see no matter what kind of change is made, and no matter where.
People are averse to change, especially the change they correctly or incorrectly (as in this case) perceive as 'bad'. The thing is that mmo games rarely make game-wide changes to make their games harder and even when it happens mmo communities being quite competitive by nature of mmos usually have harder time finding justifications why they don't like harder state of the game. See, if somebody complains the game becomes harder, he explicitly or implicitly complains that his player skill might be not sufficient to handle the game. Which is hard to admit for many people in this environment.Further, a change so very late and unannounced 3 years into the lifespan of an MMO
This change was mentioned a couple of times during the last year and, which is more important most people understood that something was wrong when everybody was given a resource replenishing mechanic, heavy attacks, (and the correspondeing cp star) that was rarely used outside of pvp content.is of course going to cause rage amongst those who are best at the most optimal system, i.e. the "focus on rotation / leave resource-management to the healers" system that endgame is currently all about.
It's really hard to call this system 'optimal'. Why could it be that? What is the justification that other people should solve your own gearing problems? Is it convenient? Yes, sure. Is it very simple? Most definitely. Most other mmos never delegate resource management to other people, because their devs understandably try to make the combat exciting at all skill levels and reducing its complexity should have really compelling reasons behind it. Usual one is 'our target audience en mass gets overwhelmed by the combat complexity and leaves the game confused'.
The system that you hastily called the 'optimal' doesn't seem to be close to that complexity level both for devs and myself.Also, from all the feedback, which you seem to have ignored, it has already been noted that the veteran Halls of Fabrication has been completed several times on the PTS, with some people talking about hardmode also having been conquered.
Which is awesome.Which part of that says the game has become "HARDER and more complex" as you so eloquently put it?
The combat system of the game. Not the game's content. Harder doesn't mean 'impossible'. Top guilds instantly adapted thus the results. Which once again shows that these changes are minor in nature and that they mostly contribute to combat complexity and gearing variety.The fact that the new trial has already been completed, when vMaw wasn't ever fully completed on the PTS when it was available, speaks volumes about the lack in difficulty of the new trial, as well as the game overall.
This speaks volumes about ZOS taking the lesson from Maw and adjusting the difficulty of the new dungeon to be more accessible to the audience. The difficulty of Maw was, and to an extent, is of concern to the general playerbase.
As far as i understand HoF is easier, but that's for the top guilds. As it should be in the case of the content that serves as as one of the key selling points of Morrowind.And as such I don't agree with your assesment that the game has become more complex and difficult, because of the sustain changes. To achieve a more difficult and complex game they would have to perform a major change to the entire game and its systems, but as they has been left in the same state, the rule that DPS beats Mechanics will still be true, and as such those with the highest DPS will prevail.
Which yet again shows that the changes still leave the whole game accessible to the playerbase, which leaves us with flavour-ish things like number of combat factors and slight gearing choices variation.Heavy attack builds are a regression of skillful play, as they require a lot less to be possible than the current endgame builds. ESO on live right now has a fairly horizontal progression model, where gear does matter, but not as much as a good rotation and usage of skills, meaning that a player with the best-in-slot gear who is not able to fully utilise it will be easily beaten in DPS by someone who has a better rotation and build. With the changes forcing people into heavy attack builds, as they are the best in terms of overall DPS (as noted by several skilful players on this very forum), we are seeing a shift towards more vertical progression, as the skill required to pull off these builds are significantly less than what the top builds on Live demand, meaning gear will become more important for high dps than is currently the case. If the barrier for entry is lowered too much and anyone can simply waltz in while wearing the best gear and beat any given content, then ESO will no longer be indistinguishable from an MMO like WoW.
This is understandable, but is based on a wrong premise and thus irrelevant. The new system doesn't force anybody into HA builds. This opinion resulted from confusion of players with the changes and ZOS way of articulating those.
As it have been shown by myself and other people 'heavy attacks' builds are not necessary at all. Instead they became a valuable option for people that would like to use them. Apparently the new system allows to adjust the dependence on heavy attacks as means of sustain in a wide range from maximum dependence (heavy attack specific builds) to zero dependence, while each of the options provides similar level of dps.
This above is that build variety and additional complexity that was introduced by the changes.
It so happened that many people hopped on the bandwagon of bashing zos before even performing basic tests.I think it will definitely be interesting to see where ESO goes from here, and while I'm obviously dismayed at this nonsensical change I will stick around and see how people adapt to it or if the game falters. It is very likely that if there is no skill progression to be had that the endgame community will turn into a swing-door, as some predict, mirroring MMOs with vertical progression that has its members replaced every content cycle.
And this is an example where confusion can lead people:D
Arrchangell wrote: »I'll just stop hoping they will fix nb this update, it's clear they aren't gonna do anything for them right now.
MassTerror23 wrote: »Arrchangell wrote: »I'll just stop hoping they will fix nb this update, it's clear they aren't gonna do anything for them right now.
If you guys didn't know these are add on to pts 3.0.0 so everything to dks still stand.
@DoctordarkspawnDoctordarkspawn wrote: »@Dorrino
This new heavy attack meta and post sustain-nerf game is gonna suck. You can call my opinion 'wrong' all you like, I dont wanna spend anymore money on this game.
Doctordarkspawn wrote: »And while it might not be -necessary-, it'll be widespread. Sorry, but this game was built around the earlier sustain changes. People were attracted for it. You can -vilify- it, but that does not change the fact it was popular. I came to this game for fast paced combat. Their slowing it down. I'm leaving. That's all there is to it.
Doctordarkspawn wrote: »We're not confused. We just disagree with you.
@Saturn@Dorrino
In your reply you are stating your opinion as fact. And a lot of what you are writing is contradictory.
You say that you can still get great dps, and then link your own post about what you can sustain, which I have seen outdone by quite a lot in other posts that focus on heavy attacks
. You even say that for the highest dps setup you had to do a heavy attack every 8s, which is a lot, compared to having to do none on live. It's taking the pace of combat and slowing it way down.
Nevermind the fact that most people probably still don't want you in a group, because A: you are a nightblade without group synergy and B: you're stam.
So while it's a good attempt to prove your point, it's not good enough, when any magicka toon with a lightning stick will beat you, because they can do it better, easier and with dying less.
You can wrap up the Morrowind dlc in whatever package you like, and spin the sustain changes however you see fit, whether negatively or positively. All I know is that from my point of view, and that of the people I play with and look up to, this is a watered-down version of ESO they are trying to sell us.
The sustain changes might be addressing issues that are long-standing, but I don't know anyone who asked for them, and other than you and a few people here-and-there on the forum, I don't see many endgame PvEers that have tested the changes who are too keen on what's coming over the horizon.
I did my tests on the pts, and I was not happy with the changes. I think they're killing the enjoyment that I derive from the game and taking a lot of skill out of the combat. Simple as that.
A stamblade can sustain without heavy? With only cost reduction glyphs? Sorry, you have to have a really bad rotation. Even on live it requires a great uptime of siphoning attacks and a nearly perfect weaving to sustain on a stamblade.
My tests show a completely different result. Without heavies there is no sustain.
So much QQ all over ESO community for those changes because they can't use their oneshot toys and run around with heavy like demi-gods. The funniest part are stamblades and stam dk qqing. Btw Great changes, keep going.
So much QQ all over ESO community for those changes because they can't use their oneshot toys and run around with heavy like demi-gods. The funniest part are stamblades and stam dk qqing. Btw Great changes, keep going.
Mag or Stam sorc?
Stamina has a reason to cry, their damage is still far behind any mag build and we won't start about survivability
Luis_Razuc wrote: »With the way this set is now, I would not want to use this set even in a full flame build
Luis_Razuc wrote: »With the way this set is now, I would not want to use this set even in a full flame build
What you fail to notice is that BSW buffs your light and heavy attacks as well, whereas Sun buffs only your abilities. Now that HA and LA will play a larger role in combat, you'll need to stack a lot of flat Spell/Weapon Damage.
@DoctordarkspawnDoctordarkspawn wrote: »@Dorrino
This new heavy attack meta and post sustain-nerf game is gonna suck. You can call my opinion 'wrong' all you like, I dont wanna spend anymore money on this game.
While spending money on the game or not is purely your personal choice, the thing is there's no 'heavy attack meta'.
Instead at least with stamblade rotation and best gear available on pts there's no difference in dps if you run all 3 wpd glyphs and make 25 heavies in 3.5min or you run 3 sustain glyphs and do zero heavy attacks. I rerun all tests. Exact same dps.
@Saturn
I think if you want to prove your point you should try to accomplish the same on something that is not a nightblade.
since siphoning strikes (while obviously nerfed into the ground) is still quite good in comparison to what other classes have.
Dragonknights, sorcerers and templars are pretty screwed, but I would like to see you show me an example of how you, with those classes, are able to achieve DPS that would compel people to bring you into a group (since DPS will still be an important factor after Morrowind launches, despite the sustain changes, as the core systems in place are still the same, i.e. DPS > Everything else), without heavy attacking.
The reason why everyone is saying it is going to be "heavy attack meta" is because that is what the majority of people have found to be the most successful in their DPS setups.
The people who have beaten the new trial have also said they run builds like that, people who have already done a lot of theorycrafting an testing.
A lot of us who are challenging your opinion, do so because, while we do want what you say to be true, we know that it is not the case.
We know that most of the builds we currently employ on Live will be reduced to ashes come Morrowind
, and we know that the easiest adaptation to solve the sustain problems will be through heavy attack builds, further enforced by the removal of the cost reduction CP and the clear choice of now being able to slot a lot of points into Tenacity.
Luis_Razuc wrote: »@Draqone you either never tested, or didn't actually read the part you quoted, but Sun does affect your Light Attack and Heavy Attack "in a full flame build". Which means flame staves on front and back bar. Flame staff is affected by Sun's 5p set bonus