If Cliff Racer is undodgeable because it has a delay, what about other abilities with travel times?

Xvorg · May 2017

Embrace the Full Heavy Full Heavy meta

bikerangelo · May 2017

Leave it to zose to introduce another ability with zero counterplay to their new beloved class. Undodgeable, no cast time, can be woven with poison injection, crits for 7k plus against other players, weaving with a heavy bow attack will trigger your bear that hits 20k plus undodgeable executes with the absolute cheapest ult cost.

Warden may not be a better healer than templar, but hot damn they're overtuned in battlegrounds.

SanTii.92 · May 2017

Derra wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Please. Merciless resolve and funnel health are not even close as obvious as Cliff racer.
You first do an animation with your hand and then the cliffracer appears 1 second later. This is very obvious and should be undodgeable. Mertciless is basically invisible and almost unpredictable.

Dracane you should know better than to post this... Merciless has a brief channel which prevents animation cancelling, a giant red bow animation, a big red slow moving projectile, and sounds a loud thump for the targeted enemy specifically. It's as telegraphed as dark flare. To compare it to your sorc, frag is less telegraphed than merciless, and people block frags all the time. Do I need to explain how that affects mageblade play patterns?

Your post displays either inexperience with and against mageblade, or bias. Tsk tsk.

There should be no undodgeable (ranged) anytimer. I have no idea why people are even arguing about this.

Then make it completly instant.

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

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NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Please. Merciless resolve and funnel health are not even close as obvious as Cliff racer.
You first do an animation with your hand and then the cliffracer appears 1 second later. This is very obvious and should be undodgeable. Mertciless is basically invisible and almost unpredictable.

Dracane you should know better than to post this... Merciless has a brief channel which prevents animation cancelling, a giant red bow animation, a big red slow moving projectile, and sounds a loud thump for the targeted enemy specifically. It's as telegraphed as dark flare. To compare it to your sorc, frag is less telegraphed than merciless, and people block frags all the time. Do I need to explain how that affects mageblade play patterns?

Your post displays either inexperience with and against mageblade, or bias. Tsk tsk.

MMmmm... I would have to agree with Dracane on their post. While I do heartily agree with your point here on Merciless/Relentless, and I feel the Bow porc should be un dodgeable, I would argue that a Large Crystal flying through the air at 70mph is a bigger telegraph then red blood effects on black.

Derra wrote: »

There should be no undodgeable (ranged) anytimer. I have no idea why people are even arguing about this.

I would be OK with un dodgeable attacks as long as there are counter measures. Like.. Dark Flare, Radiant Destruction or hard cast Crystal Frags being vulnerable to interrupt.

I am NOT arguing for anything to be undodgeable -- merciless or frag or funnel or cliff racer or anything. I'm not technically making an argument at all, just breaking down one of ZOS's and heavily implying some things about game design.

Regardless, with all the lightning and blue fuzzy effects flying off of a sorc, I am of the opinion that frag is the subtler tell. Especially because merciless literally thumps a distinct sound in the target's ears specifically when you fire it, like a giant "block or dodge now" message -- but that could just be because I'm used to it.

Takes-No-Prisoner · May 2017

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NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

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NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Please. Merciless resolve and funnel health are not even close as obvious as Cliff racer.
You first do an animation with your hand and then the cliffracer appears 1 second later. This is very obvious and should be undodgeable. Mertciless is basically invisible and almost unpredictable.

Dracane you should know better than to post this... Merciless has a brief channel which prevents animation cancelling, a giant red bow animation, a big red slow moving projectile, and sounds a loud thump for the targeted enemy specifically. It's as telegraphed as dark flare. To compare it to your sorc, frag is less telegraphed than merciless, and people block frags all the time. Do I need to explain how that affects mageblade play patterns?

Your post displays either inexperience with and against mageblade, or bias. Tsk tsk.

MMmmm... I would have to agree with Dracane on their post. While I do heartily agree with your point here on Merciless/Relentless, and I feel the Bow porc should be un dodgeable, I would argue that a Large Crystal flying through the air at 70mph is a bigger telegraph then red blood effects on black.

Derra wrote: »

There should be no undodgeable (ranged) anytimer. I have no idea why people are even arguing about this.

I would be OK with un dodgeable attacks as long as there are counter measures. Like.. Dark Flare, Radiant Destruction or hard cast Crystal Frags being vulnerable to interrupt.

I am NOT arguing for anything to be undodgeable -- merciless or frag or funnel or cliff racer or anything. I'm not technically making an argument at all, just breaking down one of ZOS's and heavily implying some things about game design.

Regardless, with all the lightning and blue fuzzy effects flying off of a sorc, I am of the opinion that frag is the subtler tell. Especially because merciless literally thumps a distinct sound in the target's ears specifically when you fire it, like a giant "block or dodge now" message -- but that could just be because I'm used to it.

Silly, it's just a figure of speech, nothing more nothing less. 2.0

Well, what I wrote about Frags was more about the visual side like you pointed out. If you're referring to the ability not making any sounds while it travels, yes I agree I can hardly tell one is flying into my skull! Especially when I'm running from a Zerg!! Which sounds a little like;

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

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NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

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NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Please. Merciless resolve and funnel health are not even close as obvious as Cliff racer.
You first do an animation with your hand and then the cliffracer appears 1 second later. This is very obvious and should be undodgeable. Mertciless is basically invisible and almost unpredictable.

Dracane you should know better than to post this... Merciless has a brief channel which prevents animation cancelling, a giant red bow animation, a big red slow moving projectile, and sounds a loud thump for the targeted enemy specifically. It's as telegraphed as dark flare. To compare it to your sorc, frag is less telegraphed than merciless, and people block frags all the time. Do I need to explain how that affects mageblade play patterns?

Your post displays either inexperience with and against mageblade, or bias. Tsk tsk.

MMmmm... I would have to agree with Dracane on their post. While I do heartily agree with your point here on Merciless/Relentless, and I feel the Bow porc should be un dodgeable, I would argue that a Large Crystal flying through the air at 70mph is a bigger telegraph then red blood effects on black.

Derra wrote: »

There should be no undodgeable (ranged) anytimer. I have no idea why people are even arguing about this.

I would be OK with un dodgeable attacks as long as there are counter measures. Like.. Dark Flare, Radiant Destruction or hard cast Crystal Frags being vulnerable to interrupt.

I am NOT arguing for anything to be undodgeable -- merciless or frag or funnel or cliff racer or anything. I'm not technically making an argument at all, just breaking down one of ZOS's and heavily implying some things about game design.

Regardless, with all the lightning and blue fuzzy effects flying off of a sorc, I am of the opinion that frag is the subtler tell. Especially because merciless literally thumps a distinct sound in the target's ears specifically when you fire it, like a giant "block or dodge now" message -- but that could just be because I'm used to it.

Silly, it's just a figure of speech, nothing more nothing less.

Well, what I wrote about Frags was more about the visual side like you pointed out. If you're referring to the ability not making any sounds while it travels, yes I agree I can hardly tell one is flying into my skull! Especially when I'm running from a Zerg!! Which sounds a little like;

I'm referring to all effects of an ability which can be used to detect and avoid it altogether, not limited to one sense or another.

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

bikerangelo wrote: »

Leave it to zose to introduce another ability with zero counterplay to their new beloved class. Undodgeable, no cast time, can be woven with poison injection, crits for 7k plus against other players, weaving with a heavy bow attack will trigger your bear that hits 20k plus undodgeable executes with the absolute cheapest ult cost.

Warden may not be a better healer than templar, but hot damn they're overtuned in battlegrounds.

It can be blocked, and 7k isn't really that impressive. The bear ult is the only execute native to the class and is largely only useful after bursting the opponent...but the class has just the cliff racer and avoidable shalk with which to burst.

The world isn't ending. It's just inconsistent messaging and one undodgeable skill from ZOS.

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2017

ofSunhold wrote: »

Undodgeable dark flare.

While it would be hilarious, even I think that's a bad idea.

Yeah, and I wouldn't want OP powers to cause them to ruin the rest of the class even more.

Dracane · May 2017

bikerangelo wrote: »

Leave it to zose to introduce another ability with zero counterplay to their new beloved class. Undodgeable, no cast time, can be woven with poison injection, crits for 7k plus against other players, weaving with a heavy bow attack will trigger your bear that hits 20k plus undodgeable executes with the absolute cheapest ult cost.

Warden may not be a better healer than templar, but hot damn they're overtuned in battlegrounds.

The bear execute is undodgeable ?

bikerangelo · May 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

bikerangelo wrote: »

Leave it to zose to introduce another ability with zero counterplay to their new beloved class. Undodgeable, no cast time, can be woven with poison injection, crits for 7k plus against other players, weaving with a heavy bow attack will trigger your bear that hits 20k plus undodgeable executes with the absolute cheapest ult cost.

Warden may not be a better healer than templar, but hot damn they're overtuned in battlegrounds.

It can be blocked, and 7k isn't really that impressive. The bear ult is the only execute native to the class and is largely only useful after bursting the opponent...but the class has just the cliff racer and avoidable shalk with which to burst.

The world isn't ending. It's just inconsistent messaging and one undodgeable skill from ZOS.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say the world was ending? With one or two wardens applying pressure with an ability that hits harder than crushing/force pulse makes it increasingly difficult for me as a stam player to pull off medium armor and use my only means of defense. Block cost increase doesn't help either, it feels like zose is continuously forcing people to run s/b and heavy armor just to put up with their new class. On a magicka toon with at least one shield, they're not that bad to fight against, but the incessant spamming is even more annoying than the actual cliff racers in the original Morrowind game.

Yes the logic train doesn't make sense so I agree there. Additionally, from my experience so far on PTS, it's incredibly easy to apply constant pressure against most targets with a cheap spammable that's overtuned compared to everything else like it.

SanTii.92 · May 2017

Dracane wrote: »

bikerangelo wrote: »

Leave it to zose to introduce another ability with zero counterplay to their new beloved class. Undodgeable, no cast time, can be woven with poison injection, crits for 7k plus against other players, weaving with a heavy bow attack will trigger your bear that hits 20k plus undodgeable executes with the absolute cheapest ult cost.

Warden may not be a better healer than templar, but hot damn they're overtuned in battlegrounds.

The bear execute is undodgeable ?

It is, But the bear can be Cc'ed. If wardens cast the ult proc, but the bear cannot reach it's target in the next 4 secs it just fails to attack.

Joy_Division · May 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Please. Merciless resolve and funnel health are not even close as obvious as Cliff racer.
You first do an animation with your hand and then the cliffracer appears 1 second later. This is very obvious and should be undodgeable. Mertciless is basically invisible and almost unpredictable.

Dracane you should know better than to post this... Merciless has a brief channel which prevents animation cancelling, a giant red bow animation, a big red slow moving projectile, and sounds a loud thump for the targeted enemy specifically. It's as telegraphed as dark flare. To compare it to your sorc, frag is less telegraphed than merciless, and people block frags all the time. Do I need to explain how that affects mageblade play patterns?

Your post displays either inexperience with and against mageblade, or bias. Tsk tsk.

I wouldn't go that far!

timidobserver · May 2017

Derra wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Please. Merciless resolve and funnel health are not even close as obvious as Cliff racer.
You first do an animation with your hand and then the cliffracer appears 1 second later. This is very obvious and should be undodgeable. Mertciless is basically invisible and almost unpredictable.

Dracane you should know better than to post this... Merciless has a brief channel which prevents animation cancelling, a giant red bow animation, a big red slow moving projectile, and sounds a loud thump for the targeted enemy specifically. It's as telegraphed as dark flare. To compare it to your sorc, frag is less telegraphed than merciless, and people block frags all the time. Do I need to explain how that affects mageblade play patterns?

Your post displays either inexperience with and against mageblade, or bias. Tsk tsk.

There should be no undodgeable (ranged) anytimer. I have no idea why people are even arguing about this.

Being completely honest. If there was no undodgable abilities, I wouldn't even entertain the idea of rolling a dps oriented build in small scale/solo pvp. I would just roll troll heals/tank all the time. Between RNG dodge, dodge roll, and increased movement speed, dealing with stambuilds would become nearly impossible.

Even with undodgable abilities, it is difficult to catch a stam build that doesn't want to be caught.

That said, I agree that cliff racer should be dodgable or be given a cast time. It will be the most easy mode undodgable ability in the game.

bikerangelo · May 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Please. Merciless resolve and funnel health are not even close as obvious as Cliff racer.
You first do an animation with your hand and then the cliffracer appears 1 second later. This is very obvious and should be undodgeable. Mertciless is basically invisible and almost unpredictable.

Dracane you should know better than to post this... Merciless has a brief channel which prevents animation cancelling, a giant red bow animation, a big red slow moving projectile, and sounds a loud thump for the targeted enemy specifically. It's as telegraphed as dark flare. To compare it to your sorc, frag is less telegraphed than merciless, and people block frags all the time. Do I need to explain how that affects mageblade play patterns?

Your post displays either inexperience with and against mageblade, or bias. Tsk tsk.

I wouldn't go that far!

I bet my Freddie Mercury dark flare animation is more fabulous than yours, des.

itscompton · May 2017

Marto wrote: »

The only other two abilities that I can think of that also have predictable travel times are Snipe, and Dark Flare

On PTS, Cliff Racer deals 7,364 damage on Alcast's video.(With 35k mag, and 1,857 unbuffed spell damage)

On Live, Dark Flare deals 15,305 damage on my well-geared Argonian Templar (With 38k mag, and 2,194 spell damage unbuffed). It has a cast time, making its effective damage-per-global-cooldown about half (7,150)

On Live, Snipe deals 12,250 plus poison effect on my badly-geared Argonian Nightblade (With 33k stam, and 2,657 unbuffed weapon damage). It has a cast time equal to Dark Flare, making its effective damage-per-global-cooldown about half (6,125)

(Apologies for not having PTS numbers, my internet sucks. I'm sure you can imagine the difference, when considering the changes to mighty/elemental expert and thaumaturge/man-at-arms.)

Yes, I can see why it's undodgeable. It's weak. Not weak enough to plummet PVE DPS beyond usability, but it is far weaker than other abilities in terms of burst potential in PVP.

The ability is fine.

Nice math but the point of the thread is that both Snipe and Dark Flare (along with a few other abilities) are EASILY dodgeable which means that unless you use them from stealth or on an opponent that's otherwise distracted the average damage inflicted by them in PvP is 0.
To put it in more mathematical terms If you throw four cliff racers at me and all of them are guaranteed to hit that's 4x7150x0.5='s14300K. If I throw four dark flares back and you dodge 3/4, which is very easy to do, you take 1x15x0.5='s 7.5k. Plus it would take at least twice as long to cast 4 DF's as it would 4 cliff racers and the Templar can be interrupted while casting while the Warden can't.

CavalryPK · May 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

ZOS has stated that Cliff Racer is undodgeable because it has a delay and would be too easy to dodge.

Funnel health has a pretty slow travel time, and Merciless has a channel time, an even slower travel time, and can only be cast every 4-5 seconds.

Not that I think those two abilities should be undodgeable, but by ZOS's new logic with the Warden's Cliff Racer, they should be.

Think of it this way. Cliff Racer is a spammable. If the enemy is trying to dodge every single one, they'll run out of stam dodge rolling before you run out of your resource casting the ability. Active dodge is not a counter to a spammable, even if it has a brief delay.

ZOS's official reasoning on the ability isn't logical.

The only logical explanation is the whole "raising the floor, lowering the ceiling" philosophy by which ZOS is designing the game now. Cliff Racer can be layered into the next global cooldown for a burst combo, and ZOS doesn't want players to have to cc their opponents before comboing in order to prevent a dodge roll.

Just a random thought some friends and I had while doing a dungeon just now. What other dodgeable things can you think of that should be undodgeable according to ZOS logic?

I would like an undodgble cripple. Please.. that is the slowest mag blade traveling skill.

thankyourat · May 2017

Dracane wrote: »

Please. Merciless resolve and funnel health are not even close as obvious as Cliff racer.
You first do an animation with your hand and then the cliffracer appears 1 second later. This is very obvious and should be undodgeable. Merciless is basically invisible and almost unpredictable.

I'm definately behind ZoS' opinion when it comes to the excuse for why this ability is undodgeable. Even just for the sake of being a unique spammable, it should be undodgeable. Who needs another pitiful spammable like force shock.

Merciless has the loudest audio que in the game the sound along with a cast time. The only saving grace is magblades have great CCs so you can make merciless land

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

CavalryPK wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

ZOS has stated that Cliff Racer is undodgeable because it has a delay and would be too easy to dodge.

Funnel health has a pretty slow travel time, and Merciless has a channel time, an even slower travel time, and can only be cast every 4-5 seconds.

Not that I think those two abilities should be undodgeable, but by ZOS's new logic with the Warden's Cliff Racer, they should be.

Think of it this way. Cliff Racer is a spammable. If the enemy is trying to dodge every single one, they'll run out of stam dodge rolling before you run out of your resource casting the ability. Active dodge is not a counter to a spammable, even if it has a brief delay.

ZOS's official reasoning on the ability isn't logical.

The only logical explanation is the whole "raising the floor, lowering the ceiling" philosophy by which ZOS is designing the game now. Cliff Racer can be layered into the next global cooldown for a burst combo, and ZOS doesn't want players to have to cc their opponents before comboing in order to prevent a dodge roll.

Just a random thought some friends and I had while doing a dungeon just now. What other dodgeable things can you think of that should be undodgeable according to ZOS logic?

I would like an undodgble cripple. Please.. that is the slowest mag blade traveling skill.

LOL omg that would be op and obnoxious and make some people I know rage so hard.

Magıc · May 2017

Undodgeable frags please so I can see all these casuals and pugs cry more about how OP sorcs are while we're spending 1/3 of our magicka pool to cast a shield + healing ward lmfao

Asgari · May 2017

It's amazing they give subertainian assault unblockable and then this gets undodgeable. When neither follow any of the same in game rules for similar skills.

Legit they are this way because of pay2win wall. ZOS trying to defend it should legitametly be embarrassed but they won't be, they'll just nerf some other class more on Monday.

SanTii.92 · May 2017

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

It's amazing they give subertainian assault unblockable and then this gets undodgeable. When neither follow any of the same in game rules for similar skills.

Legit they are this way because of pay2win wall. ZOS trying to defend it should legitametly be embarrassed but they won't be, they'll just nerf some other class more on Monday.

Maybe i could believe this if warden wouldn't suck so much. Just make the racer instant and get done with these ridiculous complain.

STEVIL · May 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

It's amazing they give subertainian assault unblockable and then this gets undodgeable. When neither follow any of the same in game rules for similar skills.

Legit they are this way because of pay2win wall. ZOS trying to defend it should legitametly be embarrassed but they won't be, they'll just nerf some other class more on Monday.

Maybe i could believe this if warden wouldn't suck so much. Just make the racer instant and get done with these ridiculous complain.

yeah, seems whatever way can be found to argue to further gimp the warden is valid... let the numbers not get in the way of the narrative.

maybe if the sustain changes were changed to everyone has infinite sustain for free they could consent to allow the warden to have a dps of 12 but only on alternate thursdays, otherwise 6.

:-)

SirSocke · May 2017

Tryed to deal with cliff racers in battlegrounds on my stamblade. Incomming Racers so I have to block. BLOCK, BLOCK, BLOCK and dead because of no stamina left.
The only way to deal with them is line of sight I think. But it seems they were hitting even through walls. Caused by PTS-delay I hope.

Derra · May 2017

timidobserver wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Please. Merciless resolve and funnel health are not even close as obvious as Cliff racer.
You first do an animation with your hand and then the cliffracer appears 1 second later. This is very obvious and should be undodgeable. Mertciless is basically invisible and almost unpredictable.

Dracane you should know better than to post this... Merciless has a brief channel which prevents animation cancelling, a giant red bow animation, a big red slow moving projectile, and sounds a loud thump for the targeted enemy specifically. It's as telegraphed as dark flare. To compare it to your sorc, frag is less telegraphed than merciless, and people block frags all the time. Do I need to explain how that affects mageblade play patterns?

Your post displays either inexperience with and against mageblade, or bias. Tsk tsk.

There should be no undodgeable (ranged) anytimer. I have no idea why people are even arguing about this.

Being completely honest. If there was no undodgable abilities, I wouldn't even entertain the idea of rolling a dps oriented build in small scale/solo pvp. I would just roll troll heals/tank all the time. Between RNG dodge, dodge roll, and increased movement speed, dealing with stambuilds would become nearly impossible.

Even with undodgable abilities, it is difficult to catch a stam build that doesn't want to be caught.

That said, I agree that cliff racer should be dodgable or be given a cast time. It will be the most easy mode undodgable ability in the game.

Oh i agree there should be some undodgeable abilities. But something that can be spammed infinitely from safe distance isn´t one of those imo.

SodanTok · May 2017

Easy

Make cliff racer faster/hit harder
Add stamina effect to its morph
Make swarm deal better damage and make sure applying it is undodgeable
Make stam morph of swarm
Make sure scorch cant be dodged (other than dodging out of the area)
Remove projectile info from addon API
Now you can finally make cliff racer dodgeable and also keeping warden from being useless

RoamingRiverElk · May 2017

They back up their changes by saying it's more consistent with the other skills when it's convenient, that's all there is to it.

Consistency, in and of itself, of course, isn't something one should always strive for.

sly007 · May 2017

They need a better explanation.

DeadlyRecluse · May 2017

Dark flare and snipe are the obvious comparisons. Long cast time, obvious telegraph.

Plus both snipe and flare have a long cast time on top of being dodgeable.

Ragnaroek93 · May 2017

This skill should 100% dodgeable. Soul Strike is already an absurd hardcounter to dodgeroll, no need for more undodgeable stuff.

Biro123 · May 2017

How about overload, that is realllly slow. And an ulti, so surely should be undodgeable?