If Cliff Racer is undodgeable because it has a delay, what about other abilities with travel times?

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

ZOS has stated that Cliff Racer is undodgeable because it has a delay and would be too easy to dodge.

Funnel health has a pretty slow travel time, and Merciless has a channel time, an even slower travel time, and can only be cast every 4-5 seconds.

Not that I think those two abilities should be undodgeable, but by ZOS's new logic with the Warden's Cliff Racer, they should be.

Think of it this way. Cliff Racer is a spammable. If the enemy is trying to dodge every single one, they'll run out of stam dodge rolling before you run out of your resource casting the ability. Active dodge is not a counter to a spammable, even if it has a brief delay.

ZOS's official reasoning on the ability isn't logical.

The only logical explanation is the whole "raising the floor, lowering the ceiling" philosophy by which ZOS is designing the game now. Cliff Racer can be layered into the next global cooldown for a burst combo, and ZOS doesn't want players to have to cc their opponents before comboing in order to prevent a dodge roll.

Just a random thought some friends and I had while doing a dungeon just now. What other dodgeable things can you think of that should be undodgeable according to ZOS logic?

ofSunhold · May 2017

Undodgeable dark flare.

While it would be hilarious, even I think that's a bad idea.

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

ofSunhold wrote: »

Undodgeable dark flare.

While it would be hilarious, even I think that's a bad idea.

LOL oh dear

But again, by ZOS's logic, that too should be undodgeable.

DisgracefulMind · May 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

ofSunhold wrote: »

Undodgeable dark flare.

While it would be hilarious, even I think that's a bad idea.

LOL oh dear

But again, by ZOS's logic, that too should be undodgeable.

Dark Flare is horrible to use and I hate it, but even I think it'd be HORRIBLE to make that undodgeable lol.

The logic they're using for Cliffracer makes no sense xD

Idinuse · May 2017

More or less everything in a Templars arsenal has a cast time or delay, the first cast of a Dark Flare is far longer than consecutive casts. If you loose LOS of your opponent briefly (i.e. a Boss) it resets and you are back to that longer cast time of the first Flare, super for DPS really. RD already being a self trapping channel has a 0,5 second pause before going off, during which 80% of the time I see a player's health go up to 100% by the time it actually starts. Then again RD IS undodgeable, but that is because it's a chanel. Just examples of delays that shouldn't be there. We'll appreciate bringing our delayed non channeled skills too up to balance with Cliff Racer and making them all undodgeable.

Avran_Sylt · May 2017

Not to mention snipe. that attack is so easily telegraphed. The noise, the arcing projectile.... should be undodgeable too according to them.

olsborg · May 2017

To quote myself.

olsborg wrote: »

Tons of spells are easy to see coming at you, dark flare, crystal fragments, snipe, stone fist(kinda) and more, but they are all dodgeable, how else does a medium armor build mitigate hard hitting dmg, blocking you say? well my medium armor sustain build with 2800 stamina regen just loves to shut down the whole point of his build (regeneration)(by blocking).

Why do wardens get one thats not dodgeable?, let me answer that for you, p2w.

olsborg · May 2017

Actually come to think of it, it makes even more sense to have things such as dark flare and crystal fragment being undodgeable over wardens dive because you can actually interrupt those, dive is instant cast and cant be interrupted. ZOS logic at its best.

Nelson_Rebel · May 2017

Why are these skills dodgeable and not Cliff racer?

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
@Wrobel
@ZOS_RichLambert

Dark flare- Huge travel time AND cast time.
Snipe- Huge Travel Time AND cast time
Funnel health- Travel time
Crystal Frags- Channel time AND cast time

All of these are spammables with cast times That ARE dodgeable. WHY is cliff racer going to be an exception? Pay to win?

Avran_Sylt · May 2017

TBH I think all projectiles should be dodgeable during mid-flight. Channeled DoTs have the caster moving their focus, but things like CFrags,Snipe, Cliff Racer.... Once the object is in motion, unless you use additional magick to alter the projetiles course, the best way for an enemy to avoid the damage is to not be where it was aimed. Course, there's no way in hell any MMO would do those calculations, especially in a PvP environment. too much lag. So the band-aid was to label a skill dodgeable or undodgeable so it'll pass or not pass a damage check.

My guess with cliff racer (if they don't change it) is that they'll chalk it up to "the cliff racer is semi-intelligent, it can alter its own course". To which I'd respond with: you can dodge *** melee attacks with dodgeroll at close range, why can't you dodge some measly claws flying at you? Is it because it looks like terrible animation with the cliff racer still hitting the enemy but having "miss" pop up, because you don't have an animation for when the cliff racer ability is dodged?

Avran_Sylt · May 2017

I'm pretty sure the reason why the cliff racer attack is undodgeable is because it's a leftover from them changing it to single target from when it was an Ground Targeted AoE skill.

Edit: Wait, can you dodge Ground AoE?

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Edit: Wait, can you dodge Ground AoE?

No you cannot.

Marto · May 2017

The only other two abilities that I can think of that also have predictable travel times are Snipe, and Dark Flare

On PTS, Cliff Racer deals 7,364 damage on Alcast's video.(With 35k mag, and 1,857 unbuffed spell damage)

On Live, Dark Flare deals 15,305 damage on my well-geared Argonian Templar (With 38k mag, and 2,194 spell damage unbuffed). It has a cast time, making its effective damage-per-global-cooldown about half (7,150)

On Live, Snipe deals 12,250 plus poison effect on my badly-geared Argonian Nightblade (With 33k stam, and 2,657 unbuffed weapon damage). It has a cast time equal to Dark Flare, making its effective damage-per-global-cooldown about half (6,125)

(Apologies for not having PTS numbers, my internet sucks. I'm sure you can imagine the difference, when considering the changes to mighty/elemental expert and thaumaturge/man-at-arms.)

Yes, I can see why it's undodgeable. It's weak. Not weak enough to plummet PVE DPS beyond usability, but it is far weaker than other abilities in terms of burst potential in PVP.

The ability is fine.

Strider_Roshin · May 2017

Marto wrote: »

The only other two abilities that I can think of that also have predictable travel times are Snipe, and Dark Flare

On PTS, Cliff Racer deals 7,364 damage on Alcast's video.(With 35k mag, and 1,857 unbuffed spell damage)

On Live, Dark Flare deals 15,305 damage on my well-geared Argonian Templar (With 38k mag, and 2,194 spell damage unbuffed). It has a cast time, making its effective damage-per-global-cooldown about half (7,150)

On Live, Snipe deals 12,250 plus poison effect on my badly-geared Argonian Nightblade (With 33k stam, and 2,657 unbuffed weapon damage). It has a cast time equal to Dark Flare, making its effective damage-per-global-cooldown about half (6,125)

(Apologies for not having PTS numbers, my internet sucks. I'm sure you can imagine the difference, when considering the changes to mighty/elemental expert and thaumaturge/man-at-arms.)

Yes, I can see why it's undodgeable. It's weak. Not weak enough to plummet PVE DPS beyond usability, but it is far weaker than other abilities in terms of burst potential in PVP.

The ability is fine.

Surprise Attack is considered to be a hard hitting spammable. This ability hits harder than Surprise Attack with the stamina morph alone.

stealthyevil · May 2017

Marto wrote: »

The only other two abilities that I can think of that also have predictable travel times are Snipe, and Dark Flare

On PTS, Cliff Racer deals 7,364 damage on Alcast's video.(With 35k mag, and 1,857 unbuffed spell damage)

On Live, Dark Flare deals 15,305 damage on my well-geared Argonian Templar (With 38k mag, and 2,194 spell damage unbuffed). It has a cast time, making its effective damage-per-global-cooldown about half (7,150)

On Live, Snipe deals 12,250 plus poison effect on my badly-geared Argonian Nightblade (With 33k stam, and 2,657 unbuffed weapon damage). It has a cast time equal to Dark Flare, making its effective damage-per-global-cooldown about half (6,125)

(Apologies for not having PTS numbers, my internet sucks. I'm sure you can imagine the difference, when considering the changes to mighty/elemental expert and thaumaturge/man-at-arms.)

Yes, I can see why it's undodgeable. It's weak. Not weak enough to plummet PVE DPS beyond usability, but it is far weaker than other abilities in terms of burst potential in PVP.

The ability is fine.

All the abilities you compared Cliff Racer to are actual "Cast" time abilities. Even though Cliff Racer is a delayed damage, its not technically a "Cast" its more of a spammable, with that being said, comparables are surprise attk/concealed/swallow soul in terms of spammables (Just dealing with NB) Problem as @NightbladeMechanics said is that Merciless, Swallow Soul, Cripple all have "Slow" damage aka its easily dodged or avoided. I believe I made a post a bit back on this, but at the time I didn't realise there was a nb megathread soz.

Minno · May 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

ZOS has stated that Cliff Racer is undodgeable because it has a delay and would be too easy to dodge.

Funnel health has a pretty slow travel time, and Merciless has a channel time, an even slower travel time, and can only be cast every 4-5 seconds.

Not that I think those two abilities should be undodgeable, but by ZOS's new logic with the Warden's Cliff Racer, they should be.

Think of it this way. Cliff Racer is a spammable. If the enemy is trying to dodge every single one, they'll run out of stam dodge rolling before you run out of your resource casting the ability. Active dodge is not a counter to a spammable, even if it has a brief delay.

ZOS's official reasoning on the ability isn't logical.

The only logical explanation is the whole "raising the floor, lowering the ceiling" philosophy by which ZOS is designing the game now. Cliff Racer can be layered into the next global cooldown for a burst combo, and ZOS doesn't want players to have to cc their opponents before comboing in order to prevent a dodge roll.

Just a random thought some friends and I had while doing a dungeon just now. What other dodgeable things can you think of that should be undodgeable according to ZOS logic?

If this was a Templar, all they would have done was increased the speed in which it hits (reflective light/VB).

Tbh it's a blatant mistake on their part making the warden too much of a support class and not an interesting mix between dps-heal-support. Because of this they literally ran out of ability space, and they packed abilities together that otherwise would have had an interesting risk/reward scenario attached.

Cliff diver is one example. It violates every rule for a single target projectile. Because there's only like 4 pure dps abilities total for the warden (cliff, bugs, bear, shalks), the others are either pure buff tank with a dot (ice shield) or heal/heal debuff. So it has to be undodgable, because they don't have a spot to place an interesting spell to provide that utility.

They should have scrapped the warden's intent as a main buff class and threw the buffs around the classes so that one can truly find a spot for heals/DPS/tankiness. Yes Templar should have had major mending removed, but not the repentance/shards Stam group return removed. DK should have received a ground AOE burst (like shalks). NB should have received a pure minor beserk or minor evasion buff to their shadow tree/double take. Sorc could have an AOE heal cone heal not tied to a pet.

Just my thoughts from an intent standpoint.

SanTii.92 · May 2017

Delay is not the only reason why cliff racer can't be dodge, not even the most important one. Wardens, magicka ones at least, don't have any other source of reliable offensive spell besides a single Dot. Make it so that you can dodge racers and they won't be able to punish a stam char whatsoever unless they really fcked up.

With the new lotus change, mage warden is already very close to the point of straight up unviability. Please try it out, and consider them, and not only stam wardens, before asking for more nerfs.

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

That's another good point and reminds me of something @WhiteMage wrote in Discord last week about Warden's design:

It's pretty dangerous for them to give wardens so few attacks. There is a certain power that has to be spread between all skills, else you couldn't kill or do anything.

When it's spread through relatively few skills, not only does it take less skill to master, but it also makes the few skills more powerful (or the class doesn't work).

Xvorg · May 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Delay is not the only reason why cliff racer can't be dodge, not even the most important one. Wardens, magicka ones at least, don't have any other source of reliable offensive spell besides a single Dot. Make it so that you can dodge racers and they won't be able to punish a stam char whatsoever unless they really fcked up.

With the new lotus change, mage warden is already very close to the point of straight up unviability. Please try it out, and consider them, and not only stam wardens, before asking for more nerfs.

And what do you thing mDK have for ranged? Just force pulse.

Sure, they have whip and embers for mele, but you have to sacrifice the staff for s/B.

bubbygink · May 2017

By this logic crystal frag should be undodgeable too...

Doesn't make sense.

Xvorg · May 2017

bubbygink wrote: »

By this logic crystal frag should be undodgeable too...

Doesn't make sense.

Yup.

It was a nice concept but having the same behaviour than Meteor (which is a ultimate) makes no sense.

That arises another question, Flappy wings can reflect the racer?

Nelson_Rebel · May 2017

Xvorg wrote: »

bubbygink wrote: »

By this logic crystal frag should be undodgeable too...

Doesn't make sense.

Yup.

It was a nice concept but having the same behaviour than Meteor (which is a ultimate) makes no sense.

That arises another question, Flappy wings can reflect the racer?

nope, unreflectable as well as it's not technically a projectile was their answer

Dracane · May 2017

Please. Merciless resolve and funnel health are not even close as obvious as Cliff racer.
You first do an animation with your hand and then the cliffracer appears 1 second later. This is very obvious and should be undodgeable. Merciless is basically invisible and almost unpredictable.

I'm definately behind ZoS' opinion when it comes to the excuse for why this ability is undodgeable. Even just for the sake of being a unique spammable, it should be undodgeable. Who needs another pitiful spammable like force shock.

CyrusArya · May 2017

Crystal Fragments is a pretty slow projectile and should be undodgeable.

NightbladeMechanics · May 2017

Dracane wrote: »

Please. Merciless resolve and funnel health are not even close as obvious as Cliff racer.
You first do an animation with your hand and then the cliffracer appears 1 second later. This is very obvious and should be undodgeable. Mertciless is basically invisible and almost unpredictable.

Dracane you should know better than to post this... Merciless has a brief channel which prevents animation cancelling, a giant red bow animation, a big red slow moving projectile, and sounds a loud thump for the targeted enemy specifically. It's as telegraphed as dark flare. To compare it to your sorc, frag is less telegraphed than merciless, and people block frags all the time. Do I need to explain how that affects mageblade play patterns?

Your post displays either inexperience with and against mageblade, or bias. Tsk tsk.

Derra · May 2017

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Please. Merciless resolve and funnel health are not even close as obvious as Cliff racer.
You first do an animation with your hand and then the cliffracer appears 1 second later. This is very obvious and should be undodgeable. Mertciless is basically invisible and almost unpredictable.

Dracane you should know better than to post this... Merciless has a brief channel which prevents animation cancelling, a giant red bow animation, a big red slow moving projectile, and sounds a loud thump for the targeted enemy specifically. It's as telegraphed as dark flare. To compare it to your sorc, frag is less telegraphed than merciless, and people block frags all the time. Do I need to explain how that affects mageblade play patterns?

Your post displays either inexperience with and against mageblade, or bias. Tsk tsk.

There should be no undodgeable (ranged) anytimer. I have no idea why people are even arguing about this.

Takes-No-Prisoner · May 2017

.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Please. Merciless resolve and funnel health are not even close as obvious as Cliff racer.
You first do an animation with your hand and then the cliffracer appears 1 second later. This is very obvious and should be undodgeable. Mertciless is basically invisible and almost unpredictable.

Dracane you should know better than to post this... Merciless has a brief channel which prevents animation cancelling, a giant red bow animation, a big red slow moving projectile, and sounds a loud thump for the targeted enemy specifically. It's as telegraphed as dark flare. To compare it to your sorc, frag is less telegraphed than merciless, and people block frags all the time. Do I need to explain how that affects mageblade play patterns?

Your post displays either inexperience with and against mageblade, or bias. Tsk tsk.

MMmmm... I would have to agree with Dracane on their post. While I do heartily agree with your point here on Merciless/Relentless, and I feel the Bow porc should be un dodgeable, I would argue that a Large Crystal flying through the air at 70mph is a bigger telegraph then red blood effects on black.

Derra wrote: »

There should be no undodgeable (ranged) anytimer. I have no idea why people are even arguing about this.

I would be OK with un dodgeable attacks as long as there are counter measures. Like.. Dark Flare, Radiant Destruction or hard cast Crystal Frags being vulnerable to interrupt.

CyrusArya · May 2017

Snipe also has a slow cast time and should totally be undodgeable. Gotta raise that floor ya know?
Cus this is the life I wanna live

Minno · May 2017

Derra wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Please. Merciless resolve and funnel health are not even close as obvious as Cliff racer.
You first do an animation with your hand and then the cliffracer appears 1 second later. This is very obvious and should be undodgeable. Mertciless is basically invisible and almost unpredictable.

Dracane you should know better than to post this... Merciless has a brief channel which prevents animation cancelling, a giant red bow animation, a big red slow moving projectile, and sounds a loud thump for the targeted enemy specifically. It's as telegraphed as dark flare. To compare it to your sorc, frag is less telegraphed than merciless, and people block frags all the time. Do I need to explain how that affects mageblade play patterns?

Your post displays either inexperience with and against mageblade, or bias. Tsk tsk.

There should be no undodgeable (ranged) anytimer. I have no idea why people are even arguing about this.

Exception being channels which lock your movement and dmg spread over the duration.

SanTii.92 · May 2017

It's pretty dangerous for them to give wardens so few attacks. There is a certain power that has to be spread between all skills, else you couldn't kill or do anything.

When it's spread through relatively few skills, not only does it take less skill to master, but it also makes the few skills more powerful (or the class doesn't work).

Pretty much this, as it stands now mag wardens are in no position to take any other nerf. Specially regarging it's offensive capabilities.

olsborg · May 2017

Derra wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Please. Merciless resolve and funnel health are not even close as obvious as Cliff racer.
You first do an animation with your hand and then the cliffracer appears 1 second later. This is very obvious and should be undodgeable. Mertciless is basically invisible and almost unpredictable.

Dracane you should know better than to post this... Merciless has a brief channel which prevents animation cancelling, a giant red bow animation, a big red slow moving projectile, and sounds a loud thump for the targeted enemy specifically. It's as telegraphed as dark flare. To compare it to your sorc, frag is less telegraphed than merciless, and people block frags all the time. Do I need to explain how that affects mageblade play patterns?

Your post displays either inexperience with and against mageblade, or bias. Tsk tsk.

There should be no undodgeable (ranged) anytimer. I have no idea why people are even arguing about this.

Agreed, its not like dodging is free, it cost a *** ton of stamina specially when you have to dodge multiple projectiles flying at you. This is such a hardcounter to medium armor builds that are already struggling hard to survive in pvp. Medium armor is the hardest playstyle to play atm, and they keep making it harder....the logic escapes me, and if I could I would fire @Wrobel