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Infinite sustain in eso
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code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »So, all damage build with no effort into sustain while not running out of resources was good design?
point is you don't run out of resources with that build because you have good group support from your healers, which is a healthy thing for the game
if you try to run a standard minmaxed sorc build without ele and orbs, youll go oom ridiculously quick.
That doesn't really address the point of the question though, does it? Also presents the issue, should sustain be 100% reliant on other people?
And what's so bad about rewarding groups for good teamwork and coordination? This is a MMO, after all, with emphasis on the multiplayer.
Those most who are most upset over these changes are those in the endgame PvE community--people who run 12-person vet trials. To us, they are taking something we hold dear to our hearts and gleefully breaking it. It's downright insulting. And what experience does ZOS have with endgame PvE?
Tell me, @ZOS_RichLambert -- How many ZOS employees have earned the Dro-m'Athra skin? How many ZOS employees have the Dro-m'Athra Destroyer title? You may have a vMA Flawless title, but that means nothing when it comes to understanding the community of people who do group MMO content.
A multiplayer group should have to put no effort into sustain on gear because it is a multiplayer group?
Do you not understand this makes for a really strange overall game situation? "Is your group good? Yes, stack all the damage you like. No? Well you have to sustain, so not only if your damage lower because of coordination but also because you have to trade stats."
Not going to say this is a perfect situation we are going to be given, but the meta of 'stack all damage and no sustain and hope your healer isnt ***' isnt interesting and kills 90% of gearsets out the gate. It makes balancing content for high end players AND the majority of the playerbase far too hard. Im looking forward to these changes, but these changes mean we need content rebalanced. So far I haven't heard anything on that, and that is what bugs me.
How is that any different from the following statement: "Is your group good? Yes, stack all damage you like. No? Well, you need to have more self-heals and more health, in case your tanks and healers fail at their job."
The whole point of group content is teamwork. And yes, means specialization. Yes, you do things differently in a group than you would solo. You stack less self-sustain, just as you would stack less self-healing.
The whole POINT of teamwork and group content is to allow players to go beyond what they could do if they were solo.
That you actually think that these are good changes shows just how fundamentally out of touch you--and ZOS--are with what endgame group PvE is all about.Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
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notimetocare✭✭✭✭✭
✭notimetocare wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »So, all damage build with no effort into sustain while not running out of resources was good design?
point is you don't run out of resources with that build because you have good group support from your healers, which is a healthy thing for the game
if you try to run a standard minmaxed sorc build without ele and orbs, youll go oom ridiculously quick.
That doesn't really address the point of the question though, does it? Also presents the issue, should sustain be 100% reliant on other people?
And what's so bad about rewarding groups for good teamwork and coordination? This is a MMO, after all, with emphasis on the multiplayer.
Those most who are most upset over these changes are those in the endgame PvE community--people who run 12-person vet trials. To us, they are taking something we hold dear to our hearts and gleefully breaking it. It's downright insulting. And what experience does ZOS have with endgame PvE?
Tell me, @ZOS_RichLambert -- How many ZOS employees have earned the Dro-m'Athra skin? How many ZOS employees have the Dro-m'Athra Destroyer title? You may have a vMA Flawless title, but that means nothing when it comes to understanding the community of people who do group MMO content.
A multiplayer group should have to put no effort into sustain on gear because it is a multiplayer group?
Do you not understand this makes for a really strange overall game situation? "Is your group good? Yes, stack all the damage you like. No? Well you have to sustain, so not only if your damage lower because of coordination but also because you have to trade stats."
Not going to say this is a perfect situation we are going to be given, but the meta of 'stack all damage and no sustain and hope your healer isnt ***' isnt interesting and kills 90% of gearsets out the gate. It makes balancing content for high end players AND the majority of the playerbase far too hard. Im looking forward to these changes, but these changes mean we need content rebalanced. So far I haven't heard anything on that, and that is what bugs me.
How is that any different from the following statement: "Is your group good? Yes, stack all damage you like. No? Well, you need to have more self-heals and more health, in case your tanks and healers fail at their job."
The whole point of group content is teamwork. And yes, means specialization. Yes, you do things differently in a group than you would solo. You stack less self-sustain, just as you would stack less self-healing.
The whole POINT of teamwork and group content is to allow players to go beyond what they could do if they were solo.
That you actually think that these are good changes shows just how fundamentally out of touch you--and ZOS--are with what endgame group PvE is all about.
Good is a relative word, and a word I never said. I look forward to major changes. After more than a decade of time in many different MMOs, Im not afraid of major changes and generally welcome them.
You are right to an extent. The point of group content is to allow players to complete harder content, but does that mean different levels of sustain are the only way to complete this? Would you not rather seem them make interesting mechanics rather than just a ton of different points where its all about maximizing your damage to avoid mechanics? Every time I have ever tried to put time into endgame trails it seems to be 'do a ton of damage so we can avoid X, Y, and Z mechanics' Is there really much more?0 -
Zagnut123Zagnut123✭✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »So, all damage build with no effort into sustain while not running out of resources was good design?
point is you don't run out of resources with that build because you have good group support from your healers, which is a healthy thing for the game
if you try to run a standard minmaxed sorc build without ele and orbs, youll go oom ridiculously quick.
That doesn't really address the point of the question though, does it? Also presents the issue, should sustain be 100% reliant on other people?
And what's so bad about rewarding groups for good teamwork and coordination? This is a MMO, after all, with emphasis on the multiplayer.
Those most who are most upset over these changes are those in the endgame PvE community--people who run 12-person vet trials. To us, they are taking something we hold dear to our hearts and gleefully breaking it. It's downright insulting. And what experience does ZOS have with endgame PvE?
Tell me, @ZOS_RichLambert -- How many ZOS employees have earned the Dro-m'Athra skin? How many ZOS employees have the Dro-m'Athra Destroyer title? You may have a vMA Flawless title, but that means nothing when it comes to understanding the community of people who do group MMO content.
A multiplayer group should have to put no effort into sustain on gear because it is a multiplayer group?
Do you not understand this makes for a really strange overall game situation? "Is your group good? Yes, stack all the damage you like. No? Well you have to sustain, so not only if your damage lower because of coordination but also because you have to trade stats."
Not going to say this is a perfect situation we are going to be given, but the meta of 'stack all damage and no sustain and hope your healer isnt ***' isnt interesting and kills 90% of gearsets out the gate. It makes balancing content for high end players AND the majority of the playerbase far too hard. Im looking forward to these changes, but these changes mean we need content rebalanced. So far I haven't heard anything on that, and that is what bugs me.
How is that any different from the following statement: "Is your group good? Yes, stack all damage you like. No? Well, you need to have more self-heals and more health, in case your tanks and healers fail at their job."
The whole point of group content is teamwork. And yes, means specialization. Yes, you do things differently in a group than you would solo. You stack less self-sustain, just as you would stack less self-healing.
The whole POINT of teamwork and group content is to allow players to go beyond what they could do if they were solo.
That you actually think that these are good changes shows just how fundamentally out of touch you--and ZOS--are with what endgame group PvE is all about.
Good is a relative word, and a word I never said. I look forward to major changes. After more than a decade of time in many different MMOs, Im not afraid of major changes and generally welcome them.
You are right to an extent. The point of group content is to allow players to complete harder content, but does that mean different levels of sustain are the only way to complete this? Would you not rather seem them make interesting mechanics rather than just a ton of different points where its all about maximizing your damage to avoid mechanics? Every time I have ever tried to put time into endgame trails it seems to be 'do a ton of damage so we can avoid X, Y, and Z mechanics' Is there really much more?
At the end of your statement you attempt to rationalise or question the point of end game content and it's present state with so few words. It's more then just do a bunch of damage it's team work, its situational awareness, it synergising, its understanding the convoluted mechanics of this game, dedication to your team and respect for those you compete against. Yes doing more damage allows you to bypass mechanics but in all honesty being able to ignore the mechanics isn't the issue. It's the 1 step forward 5 back. More importantly none of these changes helps stam players in anyway.1 -
Malic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »@Malic if you had read it then you would have seen that I point out team work is required to get to the point we're sustain isn't an issue. Even then sustain classes still had issues sustaining. @flizomica explained it well.
So youre saying watermelon?
Can you elaborate, your posts are nonsensical.0 -
Zagnut123Zagnut123✭✭✭✭@Malic I don't understand the first thing you said but I assume it's a jab at my childlike grammar. I think I had a typo that might have made it hard to understand. The last segment I stated "Even then sustain classes still had issues sustaining. @flizomica explained it well" but I meant "Even then some classes still have issues sustaining. @flizomica explained it well" I then went on to point out another poster had explained it well (my point of view) I'm sorry that you couldn't understand this.0
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Malic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »@Malic I don't understand the first thing you said but I assume it's a jab at my childlike grammar. I think I had a typo that might have made it hard to understand. The last segment I stated "Even then sustain classes still had issues sustaining. @flizomica explained it well" but I meant "Even then some classes still have issues sustaining. @flizomica explained it well" I then went on to point out another poster had explained it well (my point of view) I'm sorry that you couldn't understand this.
No I dont make fun of people for grammar its not 2003. I dont make fun of anyone actually, the point is pretty simple.
Your question matters as much as your choice between watermelon or cantaloupe. Which is to say it doesnt matter. So have some fun with ESO there is a lot to do and dont sweat it. The game is pretty dam easy.0 -
Zagnut123Zagnut123✭✭✭✭Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »@Malic I don't understand the first thing you said but I assume it's a jab at my childlike grammar. I think I had a typo that might have made it hard to understand. The last segment I stated "Even then sustain classes still had issues sustaining. @flizomica explained it well" but I meant "Even then some classes still have issues sustaining. @flizomica explained it well" I then went on to point out another poster had explained it well (my point of view) I'm sorry that you couldn't understand this.
No I dont make fun of people for grammar its not 2003. I dont make fun of anyone actually, the point is pretty simple.
Your question matters as much as your choice between watermelon or cantaloupe. Which is to say it doesnt matter. So have some fun with ESO there is a lot to do and dont sweat it. The game is pretty dam easy.
Not going to lie I don't care one way or another. But all my end game pve guilds breaking up and leaving does bother me. But very few ppl in end game pve feel the way I do. I'm mostly posting because if they leave I have no reason to stay. Competitive trials raiding is all I care about so if that dies out then well rip1 -
Zagnut123Zagnut123✭✭✭✭Last point I'll make is can you imagine how long trials and pledges will take with suboptimal groups or vma for that matter. Vma takes me 40 or 50 mins now but I won't run it next patch doesn't mater to me because I have what I need in there but most don't. Speed run achievements will likely only be held by a select few and hm trials will probably only be done by the absolute best in game. So the core teams in mechanically challenged, order of mundus, what mechanics, no brakes (would include EU guilds but I only know hodor).0
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »So, all damage build with no effort into sustain while not running out of resources was good design?
point is you don't run out of resources with that build because you have good group support from your healers, which is a healthy thing for the game
if you try to run a standard minmaxed sorc build without ele and orbs, youll go oom ridiculously quick.
That doesn't really address the point of the question though, does it? Also presents the issue, should sustain be 100% reliant on other people?
And what's so bad about rewarding groups for good teamwork and coordination? This is a MMO, after all, with emphasis on the multiplayer.
Those most who are most upset over these changes are those in the endgame PvE community--people who run 12-person vet trials. To us, they are taking something we hold dear to our hearts and gleefully breaking it. It's downright insulting. And what experience does ZOS have with endgame PvE?
Tell me, @ZOS_RichLambert -- How many ZOS employees have earned the Dro-m'Athra skin? How many ZOS employees have the Dro-m'Athra Destroyer title? You may have a vMA Flawless title, but that means nothing when it comes to understanding the community of people who do group MMO content.
A multiplayer group should have to put no effort into sustain on gear because it is a multiplayer group?
Do you not understand this makes for a really strange overall game situation? "Is your group good? Yes, stack all the damage you like. No? Well you have to sustain, so not only if your damage lower because of coordination but also because you have to trade stats."
Not going to say this is a perfect situation we are going to be given, but the meta of 'stack all damage and no sustain and hope your healer isnt ***' isnt interesting and kills 90% of gearsets out the gate. It makes balancing content for high end players AND the majority of the playerbase far too hard. Im looking forward to these changes, but these changes mean we need content rebalanced. So far I haven't heard anything on that, and that is what bugs me.
The thoughts here seem to be an opinion of one who does not understand the benefits of a well coordinated and planned group.
Even a moderately coordinated and planned group reap benefits from such planning.
What will happen is the stongest raid groups will make their way and get the job done though it will probably be at the cost of enjoyment of the game itself. The moderate raid groups will struggle greatly adjusting and it is possible the divide between the two groups will widen.
I repeat the request the person you quoted made of @ZOS_RichLambert to see how much Zos employees actually raid the most challenging content of the game design. My guess is the answer is limited at best.1 -
Zagnut123Zagnut123✭✭✭✭@Giles.floydub17_ESO I agree the biggest issue will be a severe lack of enjoyment or fulfillment is going to be a big issue0
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notimetocare✭✭✭✭✭
✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »So, all damage build with no effort into sustain while not running out of resources was good design?
point is you don't run out of resources with that build because you have good group support from your healers, which is a healthy thing for the game
if you try to run a standard minmaxed sorc build without ele and orbs, youll go oom ridiculously quick.
That doesn't really address the point of the question though, does it? Also presents the issue, should sustain be 100% reliant on other people?
And what's so bad about rewarding groups for good teamwork and coordination? This is a MMO, after all, with emphasis on the multiplayer.
Those most who are most upset over these changes are those in the endgame PvE community--people who run 12-person vet trials. To us, they are taking something we hold dear to our hearts and gleefully breaking it. It's downright insulting. And what experience does ZOS have with endgame PvE?
Tell me, @ZOS_RichLambert -- How many ZOS employees have earned the Dro-m'Athra skin? How many ZOS employees have the Dro-m'Athra Destroyer title? You may have a vMA Flawless title, but that means nothing when it comes to understanding the community of people who do group MMO content.
A multiplayer group should have to put no effort into sustain on gear because it is a multiplayer group?
Do you not understand this makes for a really strange overall game situation? "Is your group good? Yes, stack all the damage you like. No? Well you have to sustain, so not only if your damage lower because of coordination but also because you have to trade stats."
Not going to say this is a perfect situation we are going to be given, but the meta of 'stack all damage and no sustain and hope your healer isnt ***' isnt interesting and kills 90% of gearsets out the gate. It makes balancing content for high end players AND the majority of the playerbase far too hard. Im looking forward to these changes, but these changes mean we need content rebalanced. So far I haven't heard anything on that, and that is what bugs me.
The thoughts here seem to be an opinion of one who does not understand the benefits of a well coordinated and planned group.
Even a moderately coordinated and planned group reap benefits from such planning.
What will happen is the stongest raid groups will make their way and get the job done though it will probably be at the cost of enjoyment of the game itself. The moderate raid groups will struggle greatly adjusting and it is possible the divide between the two groups will widen.
I repeat the request the person you quoted made of @ZOS_RichLambert to see how much Zos employees actually raid the most challenging content of the game design. My guess is the answer is limited at best.
Whether they are making the right choice or not remains to be seen, despite what current endgame trial groups are saying.
Id like to address the ZoS employee question though:
Look at every game that developers admit how much they play the game or what level they play at, most are average. You almost never see one of them rated high, or in the hardcore fringe of the game community. Asking something like that is a very worthless question. Most of them do not have the time to devote, and matching up someone with the time, drive (most people game casually), and ability to do so is even less likely.
What is going on is that what is currently the meta of gameplay is not what they have in mind for design. That is all that matters. What exactly does the 'level' the developers play at matter? Last I checked, the developers design a game to their vision and players adapt to what that is, not the other way around (this goes for every game)0 -
fortytwoshadesSoul ShrivenNice post OP.
It is understandable to modify the game to cater for the new players and casuals from a business perspective. But there is no need for it to take a toll in endgame.0 -
Galwylin✭✭✭✭✭Unless I'm mistaken, guilds and elite players will have a set back but should find some manner to recover some of that ground but the solo player will not. I'm not sure which is the floor and which is the ceiling but the wrecking ball is getting into position.2 -
Zagnut123Zagnut123✭✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »So, all damage build with no effort into sustain while not running out of resources was good design?
point is you don't run out of resources with that build because you have good group support from your healers, which is a healthy thing for the game
if you try to run a standard minmaxed sorc build without ele and orbs, youll go oom ridiculously quick.
That doesn't really address the point of the question though, does it? Also presents the issue, should sustain be 100% reliant on other people?
And what's so bad about rewarding groups for good teamwork and coordination? This is a MMO, after all, with emphasis on the multiplayer.
Those most who are most upset over these changes are those in the endgame PvE community--people who run 12-person vet trials. To us, they are taking something we hold dear to our hearts and gleefully breaking it. It's downright insulting. And what experience does ZOS have with endgame PvE?
Tell me, @ZOS_RichLambert -- How many ZOS employees have earned the Dro-m'Athra skin? How many ZOS employees have the Dro-m'Athra Destroyer title? You may have a vMA Flawless title, but that means nothing when it comes to understanding the community of people who do group MMO content.
A multiplayer group should have to put no effort into sustain on gear because it is a multiplayer group?
Do you not understand this makes for a really strange overall game situation? "Is your group good? Yes, stack all the damage you like. No? Well you have to sustain, so not only if your damage lower because of coordination but also because you have to trade stats."
Not going to say this is a perfect situation we are going to be given, but the meta of 'stack all damage and no sustain and hope your healer isnt ***' isnt interesting and kills 90% of gearsets out the gate. It makes balancing content for high end players AND the majority of the playerbase far too hard. Im looking forward to these changes, but these changes mean we need content rebalanced. So far I haven't heard anything on that, and that is what bugs me.
The thoughts here seem to be an opinion of one who does not understand the benefits of a well coordinated and planned group.
Even a moderately coordinated and planned group reap benefits from such planning.
What will happen is the stongest raid groups will make their way and get the job done though it will probably be at the cost of enjoyment of the game itself. The moderate raid groups will struggle greatly adjusting and it is possible the divide between the two groups will widen.
I repeat the request the person you quoted made of @ZOS_RichLambert to see how much Zos employees actually raid the most challenging content of the game design. My guess is the answer is limited at best.
Whether they are making the right choice or not remains to be seen, despite what current endgame trial groups are saying.
Id like to address the ZoS employee question though:
Look at every game that developers admit how much they play the game or what level they play at, most are average. You almost never see one of them rated high, or in the hardcore fringe of the game community. Asking something like that is a very worthless question. Most of them do not have the time to devote, and matching up someone with the time, drive (most people game casually), and ability to do so is even less likely.
What is going on is that what is currently the meta of gameplay is not what they have in mind for design. That is all that matters. What exactly does the 'level' the developers play at matter? Last I checked, the developers design a game to their vision and players adapt to what that is, not the other way around (this goes for every game)
You are right in a sence but we as consumers (competitive pve ppls) are saying we won't or don't want to adapt. It's there call if they want our business. You are more then welcome to continue on with what ever they give you but but we're saying no.0 -
Zagnut123Zagnut123✭✭✭✭@notimetocare we're essentially being given an entirely new game, and some ppl don't like the new game and want to voice there opinion.0
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notimetocare✭✭✭✭✭
✭Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »@notimetocare we're essentially being given an entirely new game, and some ppl don't like the new game and want to voice there opinion.
New game seems an overstatement, but I understand the point. I take it you have never played another MMO? Massive changes like this arent uncommon when the path of the game deviates from the devs vision.0 -
SnubbS✭✭✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »Last I checked, the developers design a game to their vision and players adapt to what that is, not the other way around (this goes for every game)
If your vision is horrible, then the health of the game will suffer. Their goal is trying to raise the floor and lower the ceiling which isn't a bad thing—their way of going about it is doing the exact opposite. The game will be simultanously more challenging, and less fun—which isn't what they were aiming for. The argument is that if they played the game they'd understand this for themselves. I'm honestly glad that I haven't ever gotten into End game PvE, because while PvP will suffer as well, PvE took the hardest hit from this.
I play a different game at a competitive level, and our Devs are a lot more communicative and willing to listen to players. Admittingly they really only listen to the competitive side at times, but there's very healthy dialogue going on at all times. I don't see that here.3 -
Zagnut123Zagnut123✭✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »@notimetocare we're essentially being given an entirely new game, and some ppl don't like the new game and want to voice there opinion.
New game seems an overstatement, but I understand the point. I take it you have never played another MMO? Massive changes like this arent uncommon when the path of the game deviates from the devs vision.
I have but it's been so long It doesn't matter. But like I've said before I personally don't care about the changes I'm voicing the opinion of a sizable group of competitive pve raiders ready to leave over the patch. It won't be a new game entirely but it will require alot of relearning the game wich is kinda annoying tbh.0 -
notimetocare✭✭✭✭✭
✭notimetocare wrote: »Last I checked, the developers design a game to their vision and players adapt to what that is, not the other way around (this goes for every game)
If your vision is horrible, then the health of the game will suffer. Their goal is trying to raise the floor and lower the ceiling which isn't a bad thing—their way of going about it is doing the exact opposite. The game will be simultanously more challenging, and less fun—which isn't what they were aiming for. The argument is that if they played the game they'd understand this for themselves. I'm honestly glad that I haven't ever gotten into End game PvE, because while PvP will suffer as well, PvE took the hardest hit from this.
I play a different game at a competitive level, and our Devs are a lot more communicative and willing to listen to players. Admittingly they really only listen to the competitive side at times, but there's very healthy dialogue going on at all times. I don't see that here.
Going to have ask you to share what game you are talking about, because I am curious.0 -
MCBIZZLE300✭✭✭✭✭in trials with a group with war horns, you literally can't run out of resources.0 -
mewcatus✭✭✭Foreshadowing was already given, what did you think "Lowering the ceiling, while raising the floor." meant ?
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Insandros✭✭✭✭To be honest as someone who did hours and hours of test in the PTS with 5285165 different builds and CP allocations I'm just laughing so hard at the people who didn't even tested the PTS but who said that everything is fine, I'm just here laughing and waiting for June 6 to hit so I can watch the forums burn again.
You'Re laughing about what? Because people will have to think and manage stuff and take care about mechanics and situational awerness now, instead of over dpsing the mechanics and avoid it and staying in mobs red circles, cones and fire rings because healers have infinite magika to overheal them? Yeah i'm also laughing and can't wait to try it out in june.
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CaptainBeerDude✭✭✭✭✭So without BiS gear, a sub 50 toon and heavy armour, I can still spam the crap out of my magicka skills. Are you people sure that there isn't ridiculous sustain going around?
It's a 5 Seducer and 3 Torug's if you're curious.0 -
Wrubius_Coronaria✭✭✭✭✭To be honest as someone who did hours and hours of test in the PTS with 5285165 different builds and CP allocations I'm just laughing so hard at the people who didn't even tested the PTS but who said that everything is fine, I'm just here laughing and waiting for June 6 to hit so I can watch the forums burn again.
4 insightful, 21 agree, 4 awesome.
Really?
I can't wait for June 6, and players will see these change are healthy and not a disaster as so many think. The collaspe of ESO is not for Morrowind, sorry to disappoint you. 0 -
Galwylin✭✭✭✭✭in trials with a group with war horns, you literally can't run out of resources.
I believe you. I've heard it often. But we're not all in a group with warhorn at all times. I still have to heavy attack now to regain. Just making that harder isn't raising my floor, its just crushing me with that ceiling. If the problem area is there then it should be addressed but everyone? I am fine if CPs are addressed because I do believe they are having difficulties in where they want to go with it in place as is. But every character is somehow making that a difficultly? Nah, guys. I think you may be wanting to remake the game the wrong way. You shouldn't have to address every playstyle to adjust the game.
If I was to remove my champion points, buy complete vendor gear, I suspect I would be in a world of frustration. Even though I think you should be able to play it for the most part in that setup. All that other stuff adds some over the top elements and some it doesn't help with at all. But its really frustrating to have gotten to a certain point then be slap back. Even in ESO Live they admitted that this might be a problem since they aren't adjusting creatures. So they suspect creatures are going to be too overpowered and have chosen to do nothing about it? Why do it then? Just to give groups with warhorn a challenge?2 -
Zagnut123Zagnut123✭✭✭✭@Insandros He is laughing because patch goes live all the ppl the struggle with things as simple as vet pledges will no longer have the patience for them. If you don't do vet trials and there hm, or PvP you opinion is moot sorry. And wen you can't get into groups to complete content and come to the forums to complain just remember ppl wanted this.3
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Crafts_Many_Boxes✭✭✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »So, all damage build with no effort into sustain while not running out of resources was good design?
point is you don't run out of resources with that build because you have good group support from your healers, which is a healthy thing for the game
if you try to run a standard minmaxed sorc build without ele and orbs, youll go oom ridiculously quick.
That doesn't really address the point of the question though, does it? Also presents the issue, should sustain be 100% reliant on other people?
And what's so bad about rewarding groups for good teamwork and coordination? This is a MMO, after all, with emphasis on the multiplayer.
Those most who are most upset over these changes are those in the endgame PvE community--people who run 12-person vet trials. To us, they are taking something we hold dear to our hearts and gleefully breaking it. It's downright insulting. And what experience does ZOS have with endgame PvE?
Tell me, @ZOS_RichLambert -- How many ZOS employees have earned the Dro-m'Athra skin? How many ZOS employees have the Dro-m'Athra Destroyer title? You may have a vMA Flawless title, but that means nothing when it comes to understanding the community of people who do group MMO content.
A multiplayer group should have to put no effort into sustain on gear because it is a multiplayer group?
Do you not understand this makes for a really strange overall game situation? "Is your group good? Yes, stack all the damage you like. No? Well you have to sustain, so not only if your damage lower because of coordination but also because you have to trade stats."
Not going to say this is a perfect situation we are going to be given, but the meta of 'stack all damage and no sustain and hope your healer isnt ***' isnt interesting and kills 90% of gearsets out the gate. It makes balancing content for high end players AND the majority of the playerbase far too hard. Im looking forward to these changes, but these changes mean we need content rebalanced. So far I haven't heard anything on that, and that is what bugs me.
The thoughts here seem to be an opinion of one who does not understand the benefits of a well coordinated and planned group.
Even a moderately coordinated and planned group reap benefits from such planning.
What will happen is the stongest raid groups will make their way and get the job done though it will probably be at the cost of enjoyment of the game itself. The moderate raid groups will struggle greatly adjusting and it is possible the divide between the two groups will widen.
I repeat the request the person you quoted made of @ZOS_RichLambert to see how much Zos employees actually raid the most challenging content of the game design. My guess is the answer is limited at best.
Whether they are making the right choice or not remains to be seen, despite what current endgame trial groups are saying.
Id like to address the ZoS employee question though:
Look at every game that developers admit how much they play the game or what level they play at, most are average. You almost never see one of them rated high, or in the hardcore fringe of the game community. Asking something like that is a very worthless question. Most of them do not have the time to devote, and matching up someone with the time, drive (most people game casually), and ability to do so is even less likely.
What is going on is that what is currently the meta of gameplay is not what they have in mind for design. That is all that matters. What exactly does the 'level' the developers play at matter? Last I checked, the developers design a game to their vision and players adapt to what that is, not the other way around (this goes for every game)
Yes, the desire of the majority of the playerbase is at odds with the developer's creative vision. But, as I've said previously and others have agreed, that vision was bad. It's like if a casual Skyrim fan were asked to design their own game, that's what we're looking at right now. It's really a matter of whether the devs want to have a good, successful game or follow their vision, because both cannot exist in the existing framework of ESO.
Changes like these are NOT normal for an MMO. These are end-of-expansion level changes, but the problem is that this game's expansions don't function like normal ones. This is a horizontal progression MMO, which in itself is unusual. We won't be getting stronger in morrowind. There might be some better gear sets, or weapons, but we won't be getting exponentially stronger like characters do in other MMOs with expansions.
It is not unheard of to make sweeping nerfs, especially with an expansion around the corner. However, when these sweeping nerfs come in a game where endgame content never really gets "easier", it's just extremely poor design.
Oh right, and to reinforce the points of several others so far, I don't care if you have infinite sustain with warhorn inside a trial. That's cool and all, but it applies to 1% of the playerbase. These nerfs apply to 100% of the playerbase. Nerf sustain inside trials, don't nerf me as I'm trying to clear public dungeons and normal / vet dungeons for the first time.2