Infinite sustain in eso

Zagnut123Zagnut123

The large string of nerfs going on within the pts at the moment are brought on by the fact that there is an rampant issue with unlimited sustain. The issue I have with this is unroll recently I've always had issues with resource management. I've generally been in groups of casuals that didn't as a group have the best situational awareness or understanding of game mechanics. This tends to cause ppl to panic and die habitually in raid scenarios. About two months ago give or take a day or two I joined a high end competitive raiding guild one of the first things I noticed was wow my resources aren't consistently empty. After some time raiding with them I noticed something else, they work very hard to synergise and ensure optimal raid performance. The biggest issue people like the ones in this guild is it seems they are being forced to move backwards in progression and that there hard work is for nothing and it appears to me that end game pve will most likely be dead or close to it once patch hits live if nothing changes. I just wanted to post this as I feel end game pve albeit a minority largely feels marginalized and unheard. Thank you for reading my post and have a wonderful day.

Kay1

To be honest as someone who did hours and hours of test in the PTS with 5285165 different builds and CP allocations I'm just laughing so hard at the people who didn't even tested the PTS but who said that everything is fine, I'm just here laughing and waiting for June 6 to hit so I can watch the forums burn again.

Nyladreas

Kay1 wrote: »

To be honest as someone who did hours and hours of test in the PTS with 5285165 different builds and CP allocations I'm just laughing so hard at the people who didn't even tested the PTS but who said that everything is fine, I'm just here laughing and waiting for June 6 to hit so I can watch the forums burn again.

I disagree, but considering the style of writing in this post i'm just gunna go ahead and not even bother giving any kind of constructive criticism. Way too early to get pissed from the forums *yawn*

DjMuscleboy02

Sustain is only "infinite" in overworld where you literally have to be completely brain dead to not be able to kill things or good raid groups. Anyone who says otherwise, I encourage them to run a meta sorc build in a dungeon finder group and then tell me sustain isn't a problem currently.

The game is going backwards to accommodate players who (and honestly I've lost patience with these patch notes so I won't even sugarcoat it) are trash. Call me an elitist or what have you, but I'm simply tired of seeing zos *** on everything that made me enjoy combat in this game over combat in other games. And whatever, there may be a lot of overreacting and we may end up absolutely fine come June 6th. But when you completely change the way the game is played every 3 months, how can you expect your players to react?

Turelus

Kay1 wrote: »

To be honest as someone who did hours and hours of test in the PTS with 5285165 different builds and CP allocations I'm just laughing so hard at the people who didn't even tested the PTS but who said that everything is fine, I'm just here laughing and waiting for June 6 to hit so I can watch the forums burn again.

From the person who made how many threads on day one of patch notes stating ESO was dead?

Kay1

Turelus wrote: »

Kay1 wrote: »

To be honest as someone who did hours and hours of test in the PTS with 5285165 different builds and CP allocations I'm just laughing so hard at the people who didn't even tested the PTS but who said that everything is fine, I'm just here laughing and waiting for June 6 to hit so I can watch the forums burn again.

From the person who made how many threads on day one of patch notes stating ESO was dead?

0, you confused me by someone else, I just made one thread the first days and it was a poll to have fun and laugh about the changes instead of crying.

If i'm not wrong you can check it on my profile and see my previous threads

sirtadzio

Going back to the original post by @Zagnut123Zagnut123, he really hits the nail on the head....competitive teams are rewarded with better resource management by virtue of team work and team synergy. Even though homestead brought a large overall increase to dps, teams as a whole are a lot more organized, cohesive and efficient than they were a year ago. This improvement to our play has allowed us to push better scores, try more aggressive strategies and see measurable personal and team growth. This need to re-adapt to a complete overhaul of the system is frustrating, and as was originally stated, does feel like a set back, and that we are regressing instead of progressing. I love coming across new challenges, including harder content- but I don't appreciate it that it is being done by completely and abruptly changing the system as opposed to, for example, adding an additional difficulty level beyond "vet" for trials and dungeons to engage the top end player base.

Waffennacht

The raiders have more competition between themselves than they do with the content.

Leaderboards is what their goal was, just completing the content was never the issue.

How fast they did it was

But I'm all about the PvP

starkerealm

Kay1 wrote: »

To be honest as someone who did hours and hours of test in the PTS with 5285165 different builds and CP allocations I'm just laughing so hard at the people who didn't even tested the PTS but who said that everything is fine, I'm just here laughing and waiting for June 6 to hit so I can watch the forums burn again.

So, assuming you tested each build for one second (and never slept), you've spent the last 60 days testing something that went up on the boards less than a month ago. Sounds legit.

Zagnut123Zagnut123

@sirtadzio ty. I wanted to add in that we as s community (end game pve) wouldn't mind changes. Lowering dps increasing it adjusting resource management a little. But the proposed changes require you to relearn the entire game. It seems that many in my guilds would rather leave now then try and suffer through this update. The only reason I play this game is to achieve new things in game a socialise and since my guildies are prepared to leave come June 5th I have no reason to stay as well.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

Granted I've leveled as a StamDK, but I've had a heck of a time with resource management. I was always having to heavy attack, just for boss fights in delves and story quests. And if I had to fight two or 3 mobs in quick succession? Whelp, guess I'm heavy attacking baddie #3 to death because I'm running on empty.

Now that I'm approaching CP 160 and have some sustain CP it's gotten easier, but I still can't really sustain for more than a minute or so, either in dungeon groups or solo. I'm that dope running around heavy attacking on trash in the dungeon because he ran out of stamina 3 groups ago.

The fact that they're removing CP sustain and nerfing armor sustain on top of that is really disheartening to me. As you've said, I never even came close to this magical "infinite sustain" that people refer to all the time on here. I am leveling a templar sporadically with a friend of mine though, and I've noticed that character's had an easier time so far with it, so maybe it's just DKs.

Zagnut123Zagnut123

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Granted I've leveled as a StamDK, but I've had a heck of a time with resource management. I was always having to heavy attack, just for boss fights in delves and story quests. And if I had to fight two or 3 mobs in quick succession? Whelp, guess I'm heavy attacking baddie #3 to death because I'm running on empty.

Now that I'm approaching CP 160 and have some sustain CP it's gotten easier, but I still can't really sustain for more than a minute or so, either in dungeon groups or solo. I'm that dope running around heavy attacking on trash in the dungeon because he ran out of stamina 3 groups ago.

The fact that they're removing CP sustain and nerfing armor sustain on top of that is really disheartening to me. As you've said, I never even came close to this magical "infinite sustain" that people refer to all the time on here. I am leveling a templar sporadically with a friend of mine though, and I've noticed that character's had an easier time so far with it, so maybe it's just DKs.

Dks have huge issue sustaining compared to mag Plars are magnb. Stamdk sustain is slightly better then there magika
Counterpart. I just think it's funny how they state this whole infinite sustain is an issue. The groups that can sustain well are that way because of hours of practice. End game pve players would likely still dominate over casuals in the next patch to come as well but that's only if there is enough around to provide competition with one another. A slow gradual change to resource management would have been ideal but this is to much and all at once.

IronCrystal

Yup this pretty much sums up how I feel about this.

No one in PvE had infinite sustain to begin with. It was only through teamwork and good healers/tanks that everyone had good resource management.

Even when I'm in helping out progression runs with sub-par healers, sustain is terrible. Only in top groups with good healers/tanks is there no sustain issues. I feel like that's how it should be, like reward our teamwork.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Granted I've leveled as a StamDK, but I've had a heck of a time with resource management. I was always having to heavy attack, just for boss fights in delves and story quests. And if I had to fight two or 3 mobs in quick succession? Whelp, guess I'm heavy attacking baddie #3 to death because I'm running on empty.

Now that I'm approaching CP 160 and have some sustain CP it's gotten easier, but I still can't really sustain for more than a minute or so, either in dungeon groups or solo. I'm that dope running around heavy attacking on trash in the dungeon because he ran out of stamina 3 groups ago.

The fact that they're removing CP sustain and nerfing armor sustain on top of that is really disheartening to me. As you've said, I never even came close to this magical "infinite sustain" that people refer to all the time on here. I am leveling a templar sporadically with a friend of mine though, and I've noticed that character's had an easier time so far with it, so maybe it's just DKs.

Dks have huge issue sustaining compared to mag Plars are magnb. Stamdk sustain is slightly better then there magika
Counterpart. I just think it's funny how they state this whole infinite sustain is an issue. The groups that can sustain well are that way because of hours of practice. End game pve players would likely still dominate over casuals in the next patch to come as well but that's only if there is enough around to provide competition with one another. A slow gradual change to resource management would have been ideal but this is to much and all at once.

Yeah, it seems like certain classes have easier any easier time with sustain than others, so already nerfing it across the board makes little sense. Plus, as I've said in other threads, it's just such a slap in the face to players just getting into / approaching the endgame content.

In a more traditional MMO structure, it doesn't matter as much because the expansion hits, level cap raises, and even if your class, or even every class, is nerfed in the process you're still gonna get new, stronger gear as you level up, which allows you to go back and do the old content relatively painlessly if you so desire.

This whole "PTS Patch Notes gate" succeeded in pointing out one of the massive flaws in horizontal progression MMOs: content that never becomes obsolete is a double edged sword. If players get nerfed and content doesn't, then everything breaks down. And because of the horizontal structure, you're just S.O.L. unless the developer decides to either buff everyone again or nerf the content directly.

flguy147ub17_ESO

IronCrystal wrote: »

Yup this pretty much sums up how I feel about this.

No one in PvE had infinite sustain to begin with. It was only through teamwork and good healers/tanks that everyone had good resource management.

Even when I'm in helping out progression runs with sub-par healers, sustain is terrible. Only in top groups with good healers/tanks is there no sustain issues. I feel like that's how it should be, like reward our teamwork.

Not only that, that is a full raid with BIS gear with all their builds synergized together. Maybe they should have infinite sustain for all that teamwork and that makes them the best. But for 99.9% of the other players and people like myself who use group finder for dungeons and run with non 600 CP players, healers who never run Drain, etc. This is a big knock for everybody else. It is a myth in PVE that everybody has infinite sustain with all damage gear and glyphs.

Zagnut123Zagnut123

I wanted to add something else. The biggest issue with such drastic change is psychology of the people playing it. I like to think of the boiling frog tail. If you stick a frog in boiling water it will jump out if you gradually warm the water up it will stay in and let itself be cooked. That old wise tail is used verbally for political arguments but I think I fits with this scenario in that ppl will be less upset if the changes happen slowly. Additionally us gamer have options we can go to any game of are choosing we will jump out if the changes is to much.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

I wanted to add something else. The biggest issue with such drastic change is psychology of the people playing it. I like to think of the boiling frog tail. If you stick a frog in boiling water it will jump out if you gradually warm the water up it will stay in and let itself be cooked. That old wise tail is used verbally for political arguments but I think I fits with this scenario in that ppl will be less upset if the changes happen slowly. Additionally us gamer have options we can go to any game of are choosing we will jump out if the changes is to much.

Honestly, I think most of the sustain changes aren't needed, at least from a PvE perspective. I really like the game as it is now, but I've also only been around a few months now. I'm hardly committed.

IMO Skyrim combat is terrible. Skyrim was a great game in a lot of ways, but the simplistic, slow paced combat was its second weakest aspect. Heavy attacks aren't fun. Having to manage normal attacks in conjunction with 5-10 abilities isn't fun. Most of us seem to agree with this sentiment. If your vision as a game designer is bad, and you happened to stumble into a solution that works, you need to let it go and stick with what your entire playerbase supports.

Zagnut123Zagnut123

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

I wanted to add something else. The biggest issue with such drastic change is psychology of the people playing it. I like to think of the boiling frog tail. If you stick a frog in boiling water it will jump out if you gradually warm the water up it will stay in and let itself be cooked. That old wise tail is used verbally for political arguments but I think I fits with this scenario in that ppl will be less upset if the changes happen slowly. Additionally us gamer have options we can go to any game of are choosing we will jump out if the changes is to much.

Honestly, I think most of the sustain changes aren't needed, at least from a PvE perspective. I really like the game as it is now, but I've also only been around a few months now. I'm hardly committed.

IMO Skyrim combat is terrible. Skyrim was a great game in a lot of ways, but the simplistic, slow paced combat was its second weakest aspect. Heavy attacks aren't fun. Having to manage normal attacks in conjunction with 5-10 abilities isn't fun. Most of us seem to agree with this sentiment. If your vision as a game designer is bad, and you happened to stumble into a solution that works, you need to let it go and stick with what your entire playerbase supports.

100 percent agree

Zvorgin

PuGs are bad now, this patch will kill group finder. Maybe that is how Zos plan to fix it, get everyone to stop using it.

Qbiken

IronCrystal wrote: »

Yup this pretty much sums up how I feel about this.

No one in PvE had infinite sustain to begin with. It was only through teamwork and good healers/tanks that everyone had good resource management.

Even when I'm in helping out progression runs with sub-par healers, sustain is terrible. Only in top groups with good healers/tanks is there no sustain issues. I feel like that's how it should be, like reward our teamwork.

This^. Group support mainly greates good sustain, not gear and cp (even if they are a part of it)

notimetocare

So, all damage build with no effort into sustain while not running out of resources was good design?

Zagnut123Zagnut123

notimetocare wrote: »

So, all damage build with no effort into sustain while not running out of resources was good design?

Did you read my post.

Malic

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

So, all damage build with no effort into sustain while not running out of resources was good design?

Did you read my post.

I did, if you had to choose would you take cantaloupe or watermelon?

flizomica

notimetocare wrote: »

So, all damage build with no effort into sustain while not running out of resources was good design?

point is you don't run out of resources with that build because you have good group support from your healers, which is a healthy thing for the game

if you try to run a standard minmaxed sorc build without ele and orbs, youll go oom ridiculously quick.

notimetocare

flizomica wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

So, all damage build with no effort into sustain while not running out of resources was good design?

point is you don't run out of resources with that build because you have good group support from your healers, which is a healthy thing for the game

if you try to run a standard minmaxed sorc build without ele and orbs, youll go oom ridiculously quick.

That doesn't really address the point of the question though, does it? Also presents the issue, should sustain be 100% reliant on other people?

Flameheart

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

The large string of nerfs going on within the pts at the moment are brought on by the fact that there is an rampant issue with unlimited sustain. The issue I have with this is unroll recently I've always had issues with resource management. I've generally been in groups of casuals that didn't as a group have the best situational awareness or understanding of game mechanics. This tends to cause ppl to panic and die habitually in raid scenarios. About two months ago give or take a day or two I joined a high end competitive raiding guild one of the first things I noticed was wow my resources aren't consistently empty. After some time raiding with them I noticed something else, they work very hard to synergise and ensure optimal raid performance. The biggest issue people like the ones in this guild is it seems they are being forced to move backwards in progression and that there hard work is for nothing and it appears to me that end game pve will most likely be dead or close to it once patch hits live if nothing changes. I just wanted to post this as I feel end game pve albeit a minority largely feels marginalized and unheard. Thank you for reading my post and have a wonderful day.

Someone with the same thoughts me seems. Believe me, you are not alone. At moment you are able to dodge sustain issues by using all support you can get, chainpotting (look at the prices for corn flowers), using every support skill available and synergizing on cooldown. So as you said, it's no easy thing, it's work by using the game mechanics as intended.

Meanwhile my personal opinion of those changes is, that the "sustain issue" is a blatant lie, but removing that from CPs and enforcing heavy attack builds and slower combat, lowers the calculation count that has to be made and may be is the last option to improve the performance of their game engine and lower the gap between beginners and long-established players to gain new players.

Nevertheless, the usual casual in a PvE PUG will scream in agony when the PTS patch goes live and as this game exists because of casuals, I doubt this will be a good strategy marketingwise.

Zagnut123Zagnut123

@Malic if you had read it then you would have seen that I point out team work is required to get to the point we're sustain isn't an issue. Even then sustain classes still had issues sustaining. @flizomica explained it well.

code65536

notimetocare wrote: »

flizomica wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

So, all damage build with no effort into sustain while not running out of resources was good design?

point is you don't run out of resources with that build because you have good group support from your healers, which is a healthy thing for the game

if you try to run a standard minmaxed sorc build without ele and orbs, youll go oom ridiculously quick.

That doesn't really address the point of the question though, does it? Also presents the issue, should sustain be 100% reliant on other people?

And what's so bad about rewarding groups for good teamwork and coordination? This is a MMO, after all, with emphasis on the multiplayer.

Those most who are most upset over these changes are those in the endgame PvE community--people who run 12-person vet trials. To us, they are taking something we hold dear to our hearts and gleefully breaking it. It's downright insulting. And what experience does ZOS have with endgame PvE?

Tell me, @ZOS_RichLambert -- How many ZOS employees have earned the Dro-m'Athra skin? How many ZOS employees have the Dro-m'Athra Destroyer title? You may have a vMA Flawless title, but that means nothing when it comes to understanding the community of people who do group MMO content.

sneakymitchell

I don't care. I just heavy attack weave more to get resources back.

djdc1234

Kay1 wrote: »

To be honest as someone who did hours and hours of test in the PTS with 5285165 different builds and CP allocations I'm just laughing so hard at the people who didn't even tested the PTS but who said that everything is fine, I'm just here laughing and waiting for June 6 to hit so I can watch the forums burn again.

pretty gross //Eh..

notimetocare

code65536 wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

flizomica wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

So, all damage build with no effort into sustain while not running out of resources was good design?

point is you don't run out of resources with that build because you have good group support from your healers, which is a healthy thing for the game

if you try to run a standard minmaxed sorc build without ele and orbs, youll go oom ridiculously quick.

That doesn't really address the point of the question though, does it? Also presents the issue, should sustain be 100% reliant on other people?

And what's so bad about rewarding groups for good teamwork and coordination? This is a MMO, after all, with emphasis on the multiplayer.

Those most who are most upset over these changes are those in the endgame PvE community--people who run 12-person vet trials. To us, they are taking something we hold dear to our hearts and gleefully breaking it. It's downright insulting. And what experience does ZOS have with endgame PvE?

Tell me, @ZOS_RichLambert -- How many ZOS employees have earned the Dro-m'Athra skin? How many ZOS employees have the Dro-m'Athra Destroyer title? You may have a vMA Flawless title, but that means nothing when it comes to understanding the community of people who do group MMO content.

A multiplayer group should have to put no effort into sustain on gear because it is a multiplayer group?
Do you not understand this makes for a really strange overall game situation? "Is your group good? Yes, stack all the damage you like. No? Well you have to sustain, so not only if your damage lower because of coordination but also because you have to trade stats."

Not going to say this is a perfect situation we are going to be given, but the meta of 'stack all damage and no sustain and hope your healer isnt ***' isnt interesting and kills 90% of gearsets out the gate. It makes balancing content for high end players AND the majority of the playerbase far too hard. Im looking forward to these changes, but these changes mean we need content rebalanced. So far I haven't heard anything on that, and that is what bugs me.