ZOS Claims to Use "Hard Data" for Balancing

Anti_Virus · April 2017

DragonBound wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Although the thread is necroed, This should lay the rediculous claim to rest that heavy armor is the meta, some people will accept the facts other will insist that thier anecdotal opinion is fact.

But why must we wear a dress:(

https://youtube.com/watch?v=2z29Rk8814w

Lol that's what they want, they complain that heavy should be inlu for tanking, yet when people make pure block build tanks that deals no damage they whine.

Every one should be in Light or Medium armor to them. Can't be a tanky dps like them, can't be a full tank or they whine heck just wearing heavy makes you a "scrub" to them. Sometimes the devs makes mistakes but for the most part this community is very immature.

Peekachu99 · April 2017

The fact that it's been necro'd and some members of the community have found yet another "catastrophe/ all quit/ burn the game/ ZoS=Satan" chorus of bad behaviour to join today (3.0), makes this one of the most relevant necro threads I've seen. Apparently nothing has changed with people's hysteria and rage in six months.

The rest of us survived, somehow...What a miracle.

DaveMoeDee · April 2017

xellink wrote: »

I think she meant...

"We implement to create hard data, then make minor adjustments from there."

That said....

No CP campaign is requested by popular demand. Many players rather it be rolled out buggy than be delayed for 6 months. This allows easier adjustment and a faster way to reach the end-goal.

just half a year ago HA was literally useless. Placing one very powerful HA... is probably more experimental than for balancing. Every item is overpowered when its new and shiny. After which it gets its nerf bat.

Magsorcs aren't too bad... at one point everyone was a nightblade.

Shieldbreaker... well u did not compliment them for nerfing sorc shields... decrease population of sorc shields = decrease use of shieldbreaker = may not be useful in the current metagame? No reason to nerf it.

6 months ago soul assault was not very popular.

As for gap closers... i think its probably spaghetti code which requires a lot of developer time and investment to correct.

multiple poisons apply on one person = Experimental. -> they probably said lets add it and see what happens

Punishing streak i believe is to limit lightning animations in cyro. Cyro was a hellhole when imperial city first came out.

as to VMA weapons being OP is because.... it encourages players to buy their most expensive DLC.

Its far cheaper to be reactive than proactive. New game features can also be released quicker that way.

I haven't completed vMA, but it should give top gear.

As far as needing to buy DLC goes, not a problem. There is no more problem with people needing to buy DLC to get gear than there is in people needing to sub to play. The ESO model is actually cheaper. Much cheaper.

Jamascus · April 2017

Balamoor wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

First off to the OP....
[img][/img]

Secondly I think the rest of us can see the sheer frustration of the Devs dealing with the constant complainers/whine bots. I hope everyone keeps that in mind during the next Delitia tantrum.

Draqone wrote: »

When presented with facts, this community states: "We have alternative facts."

Exactly; the vocal minority will never ever be happy they live to prove their point and make their opinions law. Honestly it's like having 15 or so comic book guys whining at once and it has absolutely nothing to do with the state of the game and everything with them crying until they get their way.

One problem with @ZOS_RichLambert 's response it that he doesn't really answer the OP's question unless Rich meant to say they buffed heavy armor because it was worn the least, which is the stupidest *** thing I've ever heard. Another problem is that he tries to discredit the OP for asking specific questions about their thought process. Is ZOS required to answer any of these questions, no. But a dev flaming a player on the forums for asking them to explain themselves is irresponsible at best. That's terrible customer service.

AtraisMachina · April 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Do you take into account any PvE metrics when balancing? And do you guys take into account data like average time played for those mass armor biased metrics?

Personally, I know I dont know all the metrics you guys use to balance but it seems to me you guys put a priority on PvP and Mass metrics that dont take into account the fact that some people havent learned how to play yet and use them in balancing, and design.

starkerealm · April 2017

WalksonGraves wrote: »

You can't tell me they don't have the resources to fix group finder yet they paid who knows how many people to create thousands of useless furniture items and design houses and the crate system.

So, I realize this detail might sail right over your head, but you do understand that the individual employees responsible for one job are not completely interchangeable with those who perform another, right?

So, the guys responsible for doing the environmental art are not the same team you want working on UI bugs or matchmaking.

starkerealm · April 2017

Peekachu99 wrote: »

The fact that it's been necro'd and some members of the community have found yet another "catastrophe/ all quit/ burn the game/ ZoS=Satan" chorus of bad behaviour to join today (3.0), makes this one of the most relevant necro threads I've seen. Apparently nothing has changed with people's hysteria and rage in six months.

The rest of us survived, somehow...What a miracle.

Tantrums never change, they just keep finding something new to cry about and bringing it back up. I kinda wish they'd dug up a necro from the last time recovery was nerfed, with people crying about how the vet content would be impossible to complete, and how all of the classes would be broken irrevocably. It'd fit right in with today's threads.

Doctordarkspawn · April 2017

Anti_Virus wrote: »

DragonBound wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Although the thread is necroed, This should lay the rediculous claim to rest that heavy armor is the meta, some people will accept the facts other will insist that thier anecdotal opinion is fact.

But why must we wear a dress:(

https://youtube.com/watch?v=2z29Rk8814w

Lol that's what they want, they complain that heavy should be inlu for tanking, yet when people make pure block build tanks that deals no damage they whine.

Every one should be in Light or Medium armor to them. Can't be a tanky dps like them, can't be a full tank or they whine heck just wearing heavy makes you a "scrub" to them. Sometimes the devs makes mistakes but for the most part this community is very immature.

"They" could also be two distinct groups of people in and of themselves.

Still, this is why I'm in favor of actual classes. At least this way we ain' arguing constantly. And the gameplay might have more focus.

Jamascus · April 2017

starkerealm wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

You can't tell me they don't have the resources to fix group finder yet they paid who knows how many people to create thousands of useless furniture items and design houses and the crate system.

So, I realize this detail might sail right over your head, but you do understand that the individual employees responsible for one job are not completely interchangeable with those who perform another, right?

So, the guys responsible for doing the environmental art are not the same team you want working on UI bugs or matchmaking.

This is certainly true, however, since they've added the cash shop and now a giant furniture grind, the money they used to spend on fixing bugs may now be spent on the those two other "features". They're priorities probably need rethinking.

KanedaSyndrome · April 2017

@ZOS_RichLambert

You can't use statistics to gauge balance.

lachlannlindsayrwb17_ESO · April 2017

ahhh the internet in 2017, I love it

FlyLionel · April 2017

lachlannlindsayrwb17_ESO wrote: »

ahhh the internet in 2017, I love it

Ahhh and people who want to spam streak without penalties.

Wreuntzylla · April 2017

I don't get the PvE crowd's resistance to change because of PvP. PvP shows relative power between classes, including utility based power. Other players are not mindless AI, so it shows the overall health of the classes.

I would go so far as to argue that ZoS' failure is in PvE. In PvP, you have to choose skills for defense, offense and utility. In PvE, you build for offense, OR for defense, OR .... It's so one dimensional as to be nauseating.

And how are these changes being driven by PvP? For PvP we have posions to kill an enemies sustain and heal debuffs to limit the effects of heals. Heck, there is a posion that does both. If it was a PvP change, they could just tweak the effectiveness of those and be done. In fact, they are doing that by buffing befoul.

What they should do to make PvE a better experience is to put all the same elements into PvE as are used in PvP. All bosses should heal or cast shields, or reflect, etc., so that those aspect have to be considered and countered.

I despise PvE in this game. You are a dps? Max your dps and don't think about anything else. Because you can and it makes things faster and flawless. As a result, PvE is poo poo in ESO.

Galwylin · April 2017

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

I would go so far as to argue that ZoS' failure is in PvE. In PvP, you have to choose skills for defense, offense and utility. In PvE, you build for offense, OR for defense, OR .... It's so one dimensional as to be nauseating.

I kind of agree with you here. When I first started, I thought this idea of any class could play any role meant someone has finally broken the tank/healer/dps fixture of MMOs. But no, those roles are every bit as strong here as they were when EverQuest started. That was back in 1999 and in 2017 game companies still can't figure out a better way of developing games. I has been 18 years after all. Tank/healer/dps is actually from Dungeon & Dragons which puts its origins back in the 70s.

I've had a lot of hopes dashed. First created character I made was a nightblade because this game made thieving an actual career choice for a character. Except, you can't steal the dungeon bosses loot. NPCs will talk about summoning guards but just stand there running their set path. It was hardly a revolution of anything. In fact once again, I've seen this before back in an old game. One reason this whole constant balancing is so curious. They aren't doing anything new here so why is it causing so much trouble. Just check out what games like WoW did and do that.

Instead, they are determined to invent a square wheel.

Fuxo · April 2017

KanedaSyndrome wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert

You can't use statistics to gauge balance.

It is exactly what they are doing.

I really don't get it why these particular graphs would anyone show as a "proof" of doing hard data based analysis for balance. Sometimes it's maybe better to remain silent.

Looking at these graphs, it's clear that HA is extremely OP. Most of the players are DD (especially in PvP) and the graphs should show like 40% LA, 40% MA and not more that 20% HA. Maybe even more LA/MA since many inexperienced players just use the same gear in PvE and PvP.

Please tell me that your goal is not to have 1/3 DD, 1/3 tanks and 1/3 healers in the game.

This is an elder scrolls MMO. Many players are in their 30s and 40s and undertand math, statistics, programming, etc. ZOS please, treat us like that. Thanks.

RoamingRiverElk · April 2017

Jamascus wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

So you buffed heavy armor because less people use it than the other 2 types of armor? Heavy armor was used less because it's for tanking. Which is useless for PVP. Look at the passives in the skill line. Medium and light buff healing and damage primarily. Heavy buffs tanking primarily. It should be no surprise that heavy armor was used less. The real question is, why did you care that heavy armor was used less?

Indeed. Also, why would you balance a game around how the whole pvp population uses different types of armor? Take a sample of the 400 highest ranking players one week from the start of a campaign instead, or something akin to that. Even that won't be the whole answer, but it's certainly closer to a good answer than seeing what the whole population uses.

Also, why not give some of that data to the players to analyze? They can point out flaws in the sampling and then discuss the results of the better samples.

KingYogi415 · April 2017

ZOS does whatever it wants, then "finds" the data to back it up

t3hdubzy · April 2017

So many conspiracy theories.... zos is working with the russians

Amirite?

Pallio · April 2017

Hard Data = Too hard to gather data from 100 vma/vet trial runs, let's just do this.........

Thelon · May 2017

Jamascus wrote: »

[ @ZOS_RichLambert ] tries to discredit the OP for asking specific questions about their thought process. Is ZOS required to answer any of these questions, no. But a dev flaming a player on the forums for asking them to explain themselves is irresponsible at best. That's terrible customer service.

@Jamascus

its all good friend since I'm just part of the

Malic wrote: »

sniffling whinny minority that have their heads so far up their own rectums that it evokes a gag reflex and thats what you see in their posts, like the OP of this thread. Read it again, its essentially a singular view on the game as it applies to the poster only.

Oh and FYI @Malic this was a compilation of issues expressed to me by the 300+ man Guild I've been managing for 3 years.

Nonetheless it's evident by your comment that you'll be a valuable asset to this community for years to come.

S1ipperyJim · May 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Awesome stuff Rich, as a game data nerd myself I love this kind of insight!

SneaK · May 2017

This was a very bad necro. The community can't handle it, lol.

Malic · May 2017

Sabbathius wrote: »

TL:DR - You have the power to reduce tons of this negativity by talking in more detail about your process.

If people are still playing and paying why would zos care about how you feel about how you spend your time and resources?

Is there some "hard data" that suggests changing their business model would give them more resources? From what I have read on the web Firor was saying they had 8.5 million users and they won their occulus suit.

So 1-2K people on a forum complaining (but still paying) is going to sway them? I dont think so, they have been pretty dam consistent for the years I have been here. I mean you wont get an argument from me its extreme overkill and, welp they arent balancing poop (they rarely have)(

Thelon wrote: »

Jamascus wrote: »

[ @ZOS_RichLambert ] tries to discredit the OP for asking specific questions about their thought process. Is ZOS required to answer any of these questions, no. But a dev flaming a player on the forums for asking them to explain themselves is irresponsible at best. That's terrible customer service.

@Jamascus

its all good friend since I'm just part of the

Malic wrote: »

sniffling whinny minority that have their heads so far up their own rectums that it evokes a gag reflex and thats what you see in their posts, like the OP of this thread. Read it again, its essentially a singular view on the game as it applies to the poster only.

Oh and FYI @Malic this was a compilation of issues expressed to me by the 300+ man Guild I've been managing for 3 years.

Nonetheless it's evident by your comment that you'll be a valuable asset to this community for years to come.

oooh sarcasm ! Some one on the internet is mad because of something I posted on a message forum.

Let me spare you the trouble of responding

"@malic: Im not mad at all, I dont care what you think or what you have to say I am simply quoting and replying to you to prove that, you know, its true I dont care"

Cry more care bear.

Thelon · May 2017

savage

film · May 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)

"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"

Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.

Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:

Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC

.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.

So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)

Point.

Rich's head.

Thelon · October 2017

hard data for frag nerf plz

kyle.wilson · October 2017

SneaK wrote: »

This was a very bad necro. The community can't handle it, lol.

It got necroe'd again.

Thelon · October 2017

these things happen friend

ZOS_Mika · October 2017

Since this thread is rather old, we have decided to go ahead and close it down.