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ZOS Claims to Use "Hard Data" for Balancing
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Tabbycat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭KhajiitiLizard wrote: »Rohamad_Ali wrote: »There's a Star Trek next generation joke just begging to be a meme but would be most inappropriate .
Do androids even have... er.... LOL
Lucky for you, there's a Star Trek TNG episode that answers that very question.Founder and Co-GM of The Psijic Order Guild (NA)
0.016%2 -
ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"
Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.
Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:
Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC
.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.
So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)
I usually don’t post in the forums, I just read, but reading this catastrophically assumption I need to make a simple post just in case that someone actually cares and reads it. I will give some background of myself, I’m a market analyst, and my job is to process and understand big data and take actions. To make it simple I’m like a human Amazon product suggesting section where depending of what you have done I offer you things you might like. So big data is a big part of my day.
Now reading this allegedly "hard data" makes my eyes bleed. The analysis is so so so simplistic it’s almost unreal. You are just seeing general data, no crosses with whatsoever, you are determining your action with averages, what is a big mistake.
@RichLambert if you want to prove the hard data you have explains what you are doing you need to make way more analysis than that, here are some examples:
- Make a ranking of the AP gained in the last Azura cicle. Fragment it in 10 sets of 10%, and see what happens with the armor there. For example the 10% population that made more AP in the campaign have the same armor distribution than the 10% that made least AP?
- Make the same in CP campaigns, maybe CP changes behavior.
- Make a ranking depending on the amount of deaths in the campaign and do the same as above.
- Make a ranking depending on the CP and do the same. Maybe you are forcing people to start with light armor at low CP because they don’t have enough sustain and when they are CP600 they switch to heavy armor.
- Make a ranking depending on the date the player started playing and do the same. It’s not the same a lvl 12 in Cyro that started playing and they are just fooling around than a beta player that is pushing the Meta.
- Make a ranking depending on the time spent online in a PVP campaign and see what armors they use. It’s not the same a hardcore player that knows what he is doing than a casual player.
If all this cuts give the same information THEN and only THEN you are right. The thing you posted only posts more questions regarding how you guys are interpreting the data you receive. There is nothing as dangerous as a manager that doesn’t know how to interpret data, they can do havoc in a company.
6 -
Balamoor✭✭✭✭✭
✭
First off to the OP....ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"
Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.
Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:
Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC
.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.
So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)
[img][/img]
Secondly I think the rest of us can see the sheer frustration of the Devs dealing with the constant complainers/whine bots. I hope everyone keeps that in mind during the next Delitia tantrum.When presented with facts, this community states: "We have alternative facts."
Exactly; the vocal minority will never ever be happy they live to prove their point and make their opinions law. Honestly it's like having 15 or so comic book guys whining at once and it has absolutely nothing to do with the state of the game and everything with them crying until they get their way.Edited by Balamoor on April 29, 2017 1:56PM1 -
POps75p✭✭✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Feedback from everyone is one very important part, but we also look at hard data and how a change would affect every other part of the game.
Honestly Gina, I've enjoyed many conversations with you and various Devs since Beta. But the claim that you're using "hard data" to determine the affects of various changes is laughable considering the current state of your game.
*****
What hard data did you examine when balancing the CP system? Do passives like unchained look balanced to you?
What hard data did you examine when implementing Battle Spirit, especially in relation to class defining skills like Dragon Blood?
What hard data did you use when implementing a no CP campaign? Did you adjust Streak / Dodge penalties to compensate for 0 CP PvP?
What hard data did you use when implementing crutch sets like Shield breaker? Did you adjust this set after nerfing sorc shields?
What hard data did you use when setting shield duration at 6 seconds? Are your matrices showing an acceptable number of MagSorcs in Cyrodiil?
What hard data did you use when implementing proc sets like Valendrith and Viper? Do you feel these sets increase or decrease the importance of player skill in ESO?
What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?
What hard data did you use when buffing Soul Assault? Is another long-range, undodgeable beam encouraging or discouraging smart counter-play in ESO's PvP?
What hard data did you use that allowed gap closers to exist in their current state? Has banning players for using a mechanic you developed helped to address the underlying mechanical issues?
What hard data did you use to balance Masters and Maelstrom weapons for Magicka and Stamina users? Do you feel that Magicka users benefit from their vMA weapons as much as Stamina users do from theirs?
What hard data did you use when deciding that multiple poisons should apply on one person? Do you feel zerglings need additional advantages to be successful in 20 v 2 situations?
What hard data did you use when implementing Rally and Vigour? Do you feel stam builds need a burst heal from their offensive weapon (Rally) and a passive heal (Vigour) whose ticks surpasses a DKs burst heal?
What hard data did you use when deciding that Bound Armor would remain a toggle? That Storm Atronach would be the only Atronach in the game that can be CC'd?
What hard data did you reference that led you to decide that Streak should be the only CLASS DEFINING SKILL in the game that punishes the user for casting it more than once? Why is the same not true for other class defining skills like cloak, BoL and Wings?
*****
I hope you understand why the community might have a tough time understanding your use of "hard data." The current state of ESO leads me to believe that either:
a) you don't use hard data, or
b) you do use hard data, but lack the competence to use it effectively, or
c) you do use hard data and have the competence to use it effectively, but lack the monetary incentive to do so
"Men are more important than tools. If you don't believe so, put a good tool into the hands of a poor workman."
- John J. Bernet
lol, sure they do0 -
Draqone✭✭✭✭ignaciomaranrwb17_ESO wrote: »If all this cuts give the same information THEN and only THEN you are right. The thing you posted only posts more questions regarding how you guys are interpreting the data you receive. There is nothing as dangerous as a manager that doesn’t know how to interpret data, they can do havoc in a company.
While I am not going to defend the devs here, I don't think their decisions are based on anything as simplistic as what he presented here.
Lets be real, his post was just to show that they have access to data, which is what most people questioned.ESO Balance:
“All skills are equal, but some skills are more equal than others.”1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ignaciomaranrwb17_ESO wrote: »I usually don’t post in the forums, I just read, but reading this catastrophically assumption I need to make a simple post just in case that someone actually cares and reads it. I will give some background of myself, I’m a market analyst, and my job is to process and understand big data and take actions. To make it simple I’m like a human Amazon product suggesting section where depending of what you have done I offer you things you might like. So big data is a big part of my day.
Now reading this allegedly "hard data" makes my eyes bleed. The analysis is so so so simplistic it’s almost unreal. You are just seeing general data, no crosses with whatsoever, you are determining your action with averages, what is a big mistake.
In case you missed it, this was one of those, "I've neither the time, nor the crayons to explain this to you," kind of situations. Note, he's specifically doing a quick pull to tell people, "no, they're not all running heavy," not, "this is how we make these decisions."
It's incredibly simplistic because it's being addressed at people who are going into hysterics over what they perceive reality to be, when it really isn't.1 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
First off to the OP....ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"
Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.
Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:
Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC
.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.
So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)
[img][/img]
Secondly I think the rest of us can see the sheer frustration of the Devs dealing with the constant complainers/whine bots. I hope everyone keeps that in mind during the next Delitia tantrum.When presented with facts, this community states: "We have alternative facts."
Exactly; the vocal minority will never ever be happy they live to prove their point and make their opinions law. Honestly it's like having 15 or so comic book guys whining at once and it has absolutely nothing to do with the state of the game and everything with them crying until they get their way.
@Balamoor
You do realize this is a necro thread right? I think this is actually displeased with the Wrath changes to heavy armor, which, while it got people to use heavy alot more, wasn't what we were displeased about.
This was less a case of the vocal minority and a case of PVE being directly changed for the sake of PVP.
Or did you just take any excuse to bash people you hate for Opinions you dislike? What am I saying, of course you did. You probably didn't even check that the original post was IN SEPTEMBER OF LAST YEAR.
This thread, this complete disconnect with what the facts tell us versus the intent of design, is exactly what the OP was trying to show, and it's still a valid point. It's still valid because DESPITE THE MOUNTAIN OF FEEDBACK, with multiple streamers showing the impact of these changes (IE, a few thousand DPS lost, and heavy attacking becoming part of how we play, which many find boring, and if you dont want to heavy attack you -sacrifice- so much more) and given the track record Zeni has, they'll likely go on through with it.
The thread was an example of how ZOS repeatedly justifies it's decisions, cherrypicking facts and logic to support it's conclusion. It is a cylce. A cycle many of us had observed by that point, but is now set in stone.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on April 29, 2017 2:25PM3 -
t3hdubzy✭✭✭✭Who is the lead data analyst?
Just having hard data doesnt mean anything if they dont use the proper tools to keep things within control. Do they even have control limits set?
This is a common issue in a lot of industries where people are able to make tweaks to the system but dont have the tools to capture what the effect of their tweaks are downstream.1 -
Balamoor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »
First off to the OP....ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"
Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.
Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:
Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC
.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.
So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)
[img][/img]
Secondly I think the rest of us can see the sheer frustration of the Devs dealing with the constant complainers/whine bots. I hope everyone keeps that in mind during the next Delitia tantrum.When presented with facts, this community states: "We have alternative facts."
Exactly; the vocal minority will never ever be happy they live to prove their point and make their opinions law. Honestly it's like having 15 or so comic book guys whining at once and it has absolutely nothing to do with the state of the game and everything with them crying until they get their way.
@Balamoor
You do realize this is a necro thread right? I think this is actually displeased with the Wrath changes to heavy armor, which, while it got people to use heavy alot more, wasn't what we were displeased about.
This was less a case of the vocal minority and a case of PVE being directly changed for the sake of PVP.
Or did you just take any excuse to bash people you hate for Opinions you dislike? What am I saying, of course you did. You probably didn't even check that the original post was IN SEPTEMBER OF LAST YEAR.
This thread, this complete disconnect with what the facts tell us versus the intent of design, is exactly what the OP was trying to show, and it's still a valid point. Wrongthink is not a punishable crime, enough, dude.
Shouldn't you be out dumping on someone for buying crown crates, or playing SJW over gambling or something?
Actually, I saw the date, I also know that we have discussions on this forum that have very long life spans because they are topical.
The questions over Devs using hard data is topical.
Now if you still don't get the actual reason I replied I can break it down into a more horsey/ducky form for you.
Finally, I doubt you have a window into my soul so saying I hate anyone is ludicrous, this is a forum Felicia, no rational person takes it seriously enough to hate anyone. Think they are completely idiotic yes, but not hate.Edited by Balamoor on April 29, 2017 2:27PM0 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »
First off to the OP....ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"
Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.
Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:
Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC
.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.
So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)
[img][/img]
Secondly I think the rest of us can see the sheer frustration of the Devs dealing with the constant complainers/whine bots. I hope everyone keeps that in mind during the next Delitia tantrum.When presented with facts, this community states: "We have alternative facts."
Exactly; the vocal minority will never ever be happy they live to prove their point and make their opinions law. Honestly it's like having 15 or so comic book guys whining at once and it has absolutely nothing to do with the state of the game and everything with them crying until they get their way.
@Balamoor
You do realize this is a necro thread right? I think this is actually displeased with the Wrath changes to heavy armor, which, while it got people to use heavy alot more, wasn't what we were displeased about.
This was less a case of the vocal minority and a case of PVE being directly changed for the sake of PVP.
Or did you just take any excuse to bash people you hate for Opinions you dislike? What am I saying, of course you did. You probably didn't even check that the original post was IN SEPTEMBER OF LAST YEAR.
This thread, this complete disconnect with what the facts tell us versus the intent of design, is exactly what the OP was trying to show, and it's still a valid point. Wrongthink is not a punishable crime, enough, dude.
Shouldn't you be out dumping on someone for buying crown crates, or playing SJW over gambling or something? I saw the date, I also know that we have discussions on this forum that have very long life spans because they are topical.
The questions over Devs using hard data is topical.
Do I need to break it down into a more horsey/ducky form for you?
Finally, I doubt you have a window into my soul so saying I hate anyone is ludicrous, this is a forum Felicia, no rational person takes it seriously enough to hate anyone. Think they are completely idiotic yes, but not hate.
Exept every time I see you, you tend to be jumping on the bandwagon of telling anyone who disagree's with how ZOS does things to go screw themselves, telling them how to spend their time, or generally being an apologist and using faux concern as an excuse to do the first two.
The questions over the Devs use of hard data is about as clean cut as it can be, they like to cherrypick. Again, the changes to heavy armor were MADE for the sake of PVP. What data do they use to justify it? Ambiguous data like 'total players using heavy'.
And the people who questioned why PVE was geting directly nerfed got no answer. I dont see how there's a discussion to be had about it, it's about as cut and dried as it can be.
Edit: By the by. People spend their money how they want. I disagree, even hate the crown crate model. But it's up to ZOS to decide what they want to do. I wont pretend however, that the model has degenerative effects. Aside from that, I am not my brothers keeper, and as someone who has directly argued that we need to be, I find your lack of concern for those who will be taken advantage of, disturbingly hypocritical. Only thing I'll say on it, given it's off topic, but come on. What's good for the goose should be good with the gander, mister brothers keeper.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on April 29, 2017 2:36PM1 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Who is the lead data analyst?
Just having hard data doesnt mean anything if they dont use the proper tools to keep things within control. Do they even have control limits set?
This is a common issue in a lot of industries where people are able to make tweaks to the system but dont have the tools to capture what the effect of their tweaks are downstream.
Whether or not it's their inability or them thinking they know better in the data is debatable. I'd put a solid 'no' given the game studio had massive staff and budget cuts around the time Craglorn was released.
If I had to guess, it's possible alot of data analytics got cut too.0 -
t3hdubzy✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Who is the lead data analyst?
Just having hard data doesnt mean anything if they dont use the proper tools to keep things within control. Do they even have control limits set?
This is a common issue in a lot of industries where people are able to make tweaks to the system but dont have the tools to capture what the effect of their tweaks are downstream.
Whether or not it's their inability or them thinking they know better in the data is debatable. I'd put a solid 'no' given the game studio had massive staff and budget cuts around the time Craglorn was released.
If I had to guess, it's possible alot of data analytics got cut too.
This is true, i work for a big company that thrives on data, but sometimes even getting the data is a pain in the tookis.0 -
WalksonGraves✭✭✭✭✭
✭WalksonGraves wrote: »
The devs randomly pick a ball from a pile marked "hard data"...
Seems like all the bethsoft games went to *** after skyrim because zenimax became this huge corporation that designs by committe.
They only care about what interests them, like how in fallout 4 they spent most of their resources motion capturing the owners dog instead of actually creating a plot.
Or how elderscrolls has badly designed classes, underpowered sets and fundamentally broken group finder and all they care about is selling cosmetic items to bored players.
I think the best indicator of what scumbags Bethesda are is the titles they published but didn't make, if you ever played Rogue Warrior it's on the top 50 worst games of all time. They *** their company name out to promote total garbage.
Oh and Wet was crap too.
So....you hate Bethesda, hate Zenimax (Are obviously a Skyrim nutter) and hate ESO.....yet you spend your Saturday on their forums. That really doesn't make sense...I mean unless your getting paid to dump on ZoS, or you just have no life...
Oh and if you read your post in the Comic book guys voice it's freaking hilarious.
More like I loved morrowind, loved oblivion slightly less, liked skyrim despite the gutting of the rpg elements, thought fallout 3 was just ok,
hated fallout 4 (truly the death knell for good game design).
I hate that Bethesda went from a smallish group of talented and imaginative people and became this lurching corporate monstrosity with no vision that makes game design decisions entirely based on profit projections. You can't tell me they don't have the resources to fix group finder yet they paid who knows how many people to create thousands of useless furniture items and design houses and the crate system. Because vma isn't already the worlds longest slot machine let's make nirn a damn casino.
It's just extra depressing as their were few gaming companies I liked and instead of getting better they have gotten progessively worse.
Comic book guy is the only one who truly understands.Edited by WalksonGraves on April 29, 2017 2:36PM2 -
Balamoor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »
First off to the OP....ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"
Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.
Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:
Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC
.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.
So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)
[img][/img]
Secondly I think the rest of us can see the sheer frustration of the Devs dealing with the constant complainers/whine bots. I hope everyone keeps that in mind during the next Delitia tantrum.When presented with facts, this community states: "We have alternative facts."
Exactly; the vocal minority will never ever be happy they live to prove their point and make their opinions law. Honestly it's like having 15 or so comic book guys whining at once and it has absolutely nothing to do with the state of the game and everything with them crying until they get their way.
@Balamoor
You do realize this is a necro thread right? I think this is actually displeased with the Wrath changes to heavy armor, which, while it got people to use heavy alot more, wasn't what we were displeased about.
This was less a case of the vocal minority and a case of PVE being directly changed for the sake of PVP.
Or did you just take any excuse to bash people you hate for Opinions you dislike? What am I saying, of course you did. You probably didn't even check that the original post was IN SEPTEMBER OF LAST YEAR.
This thread, this complete disconnect with what the facts tell us versus the intent of design, is exactly what the OP was trying to show, and it's still a valid point. Wrongthink is not a punishable crime, enough, dude.
Shouldn't you be out dumping on someone for buying crown crates, or playing SJW over gambling or something? I saw the date, I also know that we have discussions on this forum that have very long life spans because they are topical.
The questions over Devs using hard data is topical.
Do I need to break it down into a more horsey/ducky form for you?
Finally, I doubt you have a window into my soul so saying I hate anyone is ludicrous, this is a forum Felicia, no rational person takes it seriously enough to hate anyone. Think they are completely idiotic yes, but not hate.
Exept every time I see you, you tend to be jumping on the bandwagon of telling anyone who disagree's with how ZOS does things to go screw themselves, telling them how to spend their time, or generally being an apologist and using faux concern as an excuse to do the first two.
The questions over the Devs use of hard data is about as clean cut as it can be, they like to cherrypick. Again, the changes to heavy armor were MADE for the sake of PVP. What data do they use to justify it? Ambiguous data like 'total players using heavy'.
And the people who questioned why PVE was geting directly nerfed got no answer. I dont see how there's a discussion to be had about it, it's about as cut and dried as it can be.
Interesting because when I see you, you are using words like Cherrypick, scam, ripoff, broken and every other negative connotation you can pull out of your ear. Your little paws cult has enjoyed calling me out on the forums and in game ever since some of your members lost their right to post on the forums for bullying and shaming other posters.
Now back to the Devs, no it isn't clean cut because you cant see the entire picture you can only assume the worst which is what you and the other 15 perpetually outraged posters do.....constantly, well at least until the mods decide they had enough with the never ending nonconstructive rants, then you will be shouting your opinion from a third party site
Until that day...thanks for the humor.Edited by Balamoor on April 29, 2017 2:40PM0 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »
First off to the OP....ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"
Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.
Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:
Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC
.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.
So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)
[img][/img]
Secondly I think the rest of us can see the sheer frustration of the Devs dealing with the constant complainers/whine bots. I hope everyone keeps that in mind during the next Delitia tantrum.When presented with facts, this community states: "We have alternative facts."
Exactly; the vocal minority will never ever be happy they live to prove their point and make their opinions law. Honestly it's like having 15 or so comic book guys whining at once and it has absolutely nothing to do with the state of the game and everything with them crying until they get their way.
@Balamoor
You do realize this is a necro thread right? I think this is actually displeased with the Wrath changes to heavy armor, which, while it got people to use heavy alot more, wasn't what we were displeased about.
This was less a case of the vocal minority and a case of PVE being directly changed for the sake of PVP.
Or did you just take any excuse to bash people you hate for Opinions you dislike? What am I saying, of course you did. You probably didn't even check that the original post was IN SEPTEMBER OF LAST YEAR.
This thread, this complete disconnect with what the facts tell us versus the intent of design, is exactly what the OP was trying to show, and it's still a valid point. Wrongthink is not a punishable crime, enough, dude.
Shouldn't you be out dumping on someone for buying crown crates, or playing SJW over gambling or something? I saw the date, I also know that we have discussions on this forum that have very long life spans because they are topical.
The questions over Devs using hard data is topical.
Do I need to break it down into a more horsey/ducky form for you?
Finally, I doubt you have a window into my soul so saying I hate anyone is ludicrous, this is a forum Felicia, no rational person takes it seriously enough to hate anyone. Think they are completely idiotic yes, but not hate.
Exept every time I see you, you tend to be jumping on the bandwagon of telling anyone who disagree's with how ZOS does things to go screw themselves, telling them how to spend their time, or generally being an apologist and using faux concern as an excuse to do the first two.
The questions over the Devs use of hard data is about as clean cut as it can be, they like to cherrypick. Again, the changes to heavy armor were MADE for the sake of PVP. What data do they use to justify it? Ambiguous data like 'total players using heavy'.
And the people who questioned why PVE was geting directly nerfed got no answer. I dont see how there's a discussion to be had about it, it's about as cut and dried as it can be.
Interesting because when I see you, you are using words like Cherrypick, scam, ripoff, broken and every other negative connotation you can pull out of your ear. Your little paws cult has enjoyed calling me out on the forums and in game ever since some of your members lost their right to post on the forums for bullying and shaming other posters.
Now back to the Devs, no it isn't clean cut because you cant see the entire picture you can only assume the worst which is what you and the other 15 perpetually outraged posters do.....constantly, well at least until the mods decide they had enough with the constant nonconstructive rants.
Until then thanks for the humor.
Firstly, cult?
...Eeeeexcuse me? I took the part of the handle because I disagreed with the practice, nothing more. People have the right to spend their money how they want, and all I do is express my displeasure with the practice. Reading way too much into it.
Secondly, yeah it is clean cut. I can see the cause, the effect, and the justification. I can see this repeated process throughout the games history. I can see how ZOS uses statistics and traditional spin, usually after the fact, to justify the decision.
I dont need to see the bigger picture to figure out what usually happens. You dont need to have a intricate knowledge of the solar system and environment, to know in what direction the sun rises and sets. The pattern is there, and it happens almost like clockwork. And if you refuse to see it, that's on you.
Now I would prefer you dont bring politics into a discussion about how ZOS chooses to use it's statistics. To clarify, I am not part of some mystical hivemind. We're not all out to get you my friend. We're just here to talk.
Edit: Outrage, by the by. I'll be honest, I'm not invested in this game enough to be 'outraged'. But until I get a alternative MMO lined up, here I'll stay, trying to play damage control. After two years, I dont have enough fire in me for 'outrage'.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on April 29, 2017 2:50PM1 -
Stovahkiin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Guess no one noticed that this thread just get mega necro'dBeware the battle cattle, but don't *fear* the battle cattle!0 -
WalksonGraves✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stovahkiin wrote: »Guess no one noticed that this thread just get mega necro'd
Maybe this time they'll go into the settings and hit that lock after x days tab. Naw, better just let threads get necro'd indefinitely.0 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Stovahkiin wrote: »Guess no one noticed that this thread just get mega necro'd
Either their leting it stay open for the sake of discussion on how they -use- statistics, and how it relates to present day, ooor their just geting coffee. Eitherway, make your points before it gets locked.
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blimsta✭✭✭"use hard data", they need to just play the game ffs.
I think it means they use the hard data to *** us all with. Here have some hard data up the ass.
ESO when the data is hard and rapeing your butt hole.1 -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Actually there is nearly nobody ever pvping. Its not like there were thousands of people roaming cyrodiil every day. Its more like some hundred. And half of them are there every day.
This games pvp is dead and buried.
LMAO I dont know what campaign youre playing but on PS4 Skull Ive seen an ocean of blueberrys. PvP is definitely not as popular as it could of been. But its far from dead.Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax0 -
Gandrhulf_Harbard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"
Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.
Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:
Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC
.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.
So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)
What determine the categories?
My MagSorc runs 1x Hvy (Chest), 1x Med (Boots), 5x Light (the rest).
Unless we know what makes someone part of the "light" rather than the "heavy" AND we know the time frame for that data its pretty meaningless to be honest - because so much has changed since launch, that any data from more than 6 months ago is pretty useless in terms of current meta analysis.
All The BestThose memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.0 -
Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭does the armor data in the chart that @ZOS_RichLambert shared consider that almost all PvPers wear 5/1/1 armor types? I dont understand how you can interpret that data unless youre looking at 5 pieces or more.0 -
Malic✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »I probably shouldn't respond to such a post, but gotta jump in. We do use data and compare that to player feedback and our own experiences on live. Players always assume that what they see is what everyone is doing... that is a very dangerous assumption. Let's take a more detailed look at question #7... (even though its trolly)"What hard data did you use when buffing heavy armor? If your data is reliable and / or your ability to interpret this data is satisfactory, why are HA sets like Black Rose so popular among damage dealers?"
Note: I'm only using NA PC data for a quick example... I don't have the time to wait for the report to parse all 180+ GB of data for all platforms.
Current armor bias of ALL players on NA PC:
Current armor bias of ONLY PVP players on NA PC
.. and now just for fun, here's the bias of all PVP players on NA PC with 501+ CP.
So in general, heavy isn't as popular as everyone thinks in PVP, especially at the higher end CP. The changes to heavy armor have swung things much closer to what I would call overall parity than ever before. There is still room for improvement however, especially when we start digging into things like class armor bias breakdowns. (i.e. - DK generally prefer heavy over all other armor types...etc)
Cheers for this @ZOS_RichLambert. It's funny that a small circle of dueling players all want to use one type of armor so they assume that everyone is using it as well. I do wonder what constitutes an ONLY PVP player. I spend probably 75% of my time in PVP. Am I PVP only?
Yes, one of the problems you have with MMO's is the sniffling whinny minority that have their heads so far up their own rectums that it evokes a gag reflex and thats what you see in their posts, like the OP of this thread. Read it again, its essentially a singular view on the game as it applies to the poster only.
The funny part is, the people who cry about their own realities, not the facts will still log in, still pay their subs, buy all the content. Its "laughable" to quote the op.
LOL0 -
ol_BANK_lo✭✭✭✭✭@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert
Here is some hard data (more or less)...much of your PVE content is still very hard for some people. Some people still struggle with VMA. vMoL is still tough for almost the entirety of your player base. You can count on two hands how many teams have beaten vMoL HM on all platforms/servers. I am in the category of beaten everything repeatedly but vMoL HM. That is still one of my goals. We are more than a year since the release of Maw of Lorkhaj, and it is still a challenge for most groups. Supposedly the Halls of Fabrication is even more difficult.
I know multiple people who struggle with VMA - who took a year and CP600 just to complete it. I also know people who are literally the best in the game at VMA, and do it 30 minutes. You will never be able to balance skill. It is what it is. But end game trials, VMA and vDSA are about lots of damage and sustain. You have made it harder for the really good guilds and players, but they will get it done. More importantly, you have made it impossible for the less skilled. Less skilled players who will now take twice as long to kill a VMA boss won't ever do it, because the mechanics will become too much. Same with vMoL.
Who are you actually catering too? Do you actually play the game casually or at its highest level? If you're playing to the majority who may be less skilled but love zerging and group content...well you just killed it for them. Because, against your goals, the skill gap just got bigger. Are you catering to the highest level, and tired of watching Andy S and HODOR dismantle your content? Well great, you made it more difficult for them, but impossible for the majority.
Are you focused on PVP or PVE? Because they have very different needs. You think you've balanced the game for PVP, but you have only promoted zerging, because people will want to be protected by the herd when they run out of resources in 30 seconds.
There isn't anything balanced by this. There will always be a skill gap. It now has only grown thanks to near-sighted MASSIVE changes like Morrowind. And balancing everything to support the purchase of the Warden only pisses people off. People wanted to buy it anyway before, but much fewer now. Nice job.....
FYI, I have been playing since the summer of 2015. I am part the group that won't purchase Morrowind or continue ESO Plus in its current state.
A sad friend....Edited by ol_BANK_lo on April 30, 2017 3:15AM3 -
Shad0wfire99✭✭✭✭✭
✭People can only blame Wrobel for so long until it actually becomes a @ZOS_RichLambert problem.
XBox NA1 -
Sabbathius✭✭✭✭Just a couple of remarks. First, people crying "necro thread"? It's from September last year. That's hardly a necro.
Second, it would be lovely if they did expand and show their analysis. Other MMO devs do this all the time. EVE Online is especially known for this, they frequently release dev blogs full of charts, graphs, etc. Like it was pointed out, does the armor trend hold true for most AP-earning people, and least AP-earning people? Is there a link (not necessarily causality, just a link) between low AP, lots of dying and wearing non-heavy? And so on. Now THOSE graphs would actually be convincing. This stuff you've shown so far is pretty much completely meaningless.
Third, along those same lines I'd love to see some data about abilities and their use. Because I'm reasonably sure most high-end PvP players playing as Sorc are going to have their Ward skill on their bar. There are morphs that pretty much nobody uses, too. Tell me I'm wrong. Similarly, how many people are vampires, and how many are werewolves? What percentage of vampires actively uses vampire abilities (such as Mist or Bats) and what percentage of players actively uses werewolf abilities (besides the required ultimate, of course), in PvP, and how is their AP-earning (and by relation K:D) measure up to vampires? And what are you doing to fix the discrepancies, if any, between the two?
Fourth and final, seeing is believing. Currently a lot of people are complaining about upcoming sustain changes. How about you post some videos of you guys running trials and vMA and such? I mean, you do play the game. And so you've obviously done it, and also for testing purposes. Just post some vids of you running vMA as sDK under the upcoming changes, ideally hitting 600k scores. You know, like those Sorc and NB vids? And if they can't, could it be the lack of mobility and execute? What are you doing to compensate for that lack of power? Stuff like that. In the same vein, how about doing some vTrials with a stamina-heavy group, and getting a decent score. Surely if stamina isn't getting buffs, it's balanced. And if it's balanced, you should be able to hit near the top of leaderboards with it? So how about it? Proof is in the pudding. And it would surely shut these people up, once and for all, when you literally show them a video showing that performance they said isn't possible. Because right now we're getting quite a few videos from PTS showing how much DPS dropped on target skeleton, and how boring the rotation becomes when you just stand there holding down the left mouse button to get some resources back. You guys also said on Friday in the Live show that you're thinking of changing Siphoning Attacks to grant resources when ability expires. And ability now lasts 20 seconds. Do you consider it fun to wait 20 sec for a resource spike? On what data are you basing that conclusion? Show your work.
TL:DR - You have the power to reduce tons of this negativity by talking in more detail about your process.2 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Although the thread is necroed, This should lay the rediculous claim to rest that heavy armor is the meta, some people will accept the facts other will insist that their anecdotal opinion is fact.Edited by Anti_Virus on April 29, 2017 8:31PMPower Wealth And Influence.0 -
DragonBound✭✭✭✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »Although the thread is necroed, This should lay the rediculous claim to rest that heavy armor is the meta, some people will accept the facts other will insist that thier anecdotal opinion is fact.
But why must we wear a dress:(
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2z29Rk8814w0
This discussion has been closed.