Juhasow wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

I started a pros/cons list on why I would ever play a Templar healer over a Sorcerer. Without the removal of many class specifics like Major Mending, Repentance, Shards... I couldn't find many cons. Here's the Pro list.

Pros
1. Lich
2. Necropotence
3. Twilight heal is better than the old 3 target BoL.
5. Massive shields. Massive magicka.
6. Combat Prayer > New BoL (more targets + more utility buff)
7. Healing Springs > New BoL (more targets)
8. Healing Ward >= New BoL (not directional - shield (cannot be defiled) is better than a small 50% directional heal)
9. Mobility (streak)
10. Negate >= Ulti Heal
11. Access to magicka/stamina return with the new Necrotic Orb
12. Still outputs high quality nuisance damage from a safe distance
13. Third bar with Overload (more utility skills)
14. Lightning skills apply concussed.
15. Encase spam.
16. Other high quality utility skills like Mines and Dark Exchange

Cons:
1. Cannot group defile (dark flare)
2. Nova - (trials damage mitigation)

1. Tempar can also wear lich.
2. Why You would wear set that buff You as a healer instead of wearing set that buffs You and the group (SPC for example)
3. No. Nothing can beat old 3 target BoL in terms of healing. Dont forgot templar have pssives that increased BoL heals on allies with lower hp.
4. You missed number 4
5. Who needs massives shields anyway? In PvE Harness magika absorbs enogh dmg increasing shield value just end up having stronger shields then it's needed.
6. No. BoL even with cone healing wstill have 180 degree 28 meters radius. That allows You to reach allies from much farther distance if it's needed and combat prayer was used by healers anyway so it'll not replace itself.
7. Same like above BoL still wins with distance and it does not require targeting ground where Your ally is You just make sure he is in front on You and click 1 button
8. Unless for example in PvP enemie wearing shieldbreaker on knight slayer or it' PvE boss that deals dmg under shields (CoS last boss)
9. Here I agree
10. Nova > Negate in PvE.
11. Shard will still be better then orbs in certain situations for example Your ally needs resources back instantly and orb will be there few seconds later because it's slowly moving forward and shard can be throw there in a sec not mentioning one shard morph also restores resources to healer and burning light passive also deals dmg.
12. Nice fact about templar healer is that he can deal dmg while healing ,protecting and supporting allies (puryfying light , ritual of retribution , nova, shards)
13. Yes if You have a time to swap between 3 bars and keep good uptime of skills like combat prayer etc.
14. Still You'll use Elemental blockade to do this job because it applies also off ballance on concussed targets.
15. Most of the time it's tank job to keep enemeis in taloons because he also applies minor maim.
16. Yeah partialy can agree on this dak deal is nice but good healer always have his resources and I dont see the point why healer would need mines except for maybe walking into middle of enemies group and placing them there but templar can spam shards to also deal AoE dmg.


Dont get me wrong I am not saying sorc will be weak healer but dont fool Yourself that he'll be able to beat templar at this role.

JamieAubrey wrote: »

15. Encase spam.

Doesn't encase drain your magicka ? Or at least it does when I spam it on an enemy

BigES wrote: »

I started a pros/cons list on why I would ever play a Templar healer over a Sorcerer. Without the removal of many class specifics like Major Mending, Repentance, Shards... I couldn't find many cons. Here's the Pro list.

Pros
1. Lich
2. Necropotence
3. Twilight heal is better than the old 3 target BoL.
5. Massive shields. Massive magicka.
6. Combat Prayer > New BoL (more targets + more utility buff)
7. Healing Springs > New BoL (more targets)
8. Healing Ward >= New BoL (not directional - shield (cannot be defiled) is better than a small 50% directional heal)
9. Mobility (streak)
10. Negate >= Ulti Heal
11. Access to magicka/stamina return with the new Necrotic Orb
12. Still outputs high quality nuisance damage from a safe distance
13. Third bar with Overload (more utility skills)
14. Lightning skills apply concussed.
15. Encase spam.
16. Other high quality utility skills like Mines and Dark Exchange

Cons:
1. Cannot group defile (dark flare)
2. Nova - (trials damage mitigation)

paulsimonps wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

I started a pros/cons list on why I would ever play a Templar healer over a Sorcerer. Without the removal of many class specifics like Major Mending, Repentance, Shards... I couldn't find many cons. Here's the Pro list.

Pros
1. Lich
2. Necropotence
3. Twilight heal is better than the old 3 target BoL.
5. Massive shields. Massive magicka.
6. Combat Prayer > New BoL (more targets + more utility buff)
7. Healing Springs > New BoL (more targets)
8. Healing Ward >= New BoL (not directional - shield (cannot be defiled) is better than a small 50% directional heal)
9. Mobility (streak)
10. Negate >= Ulti Heal
11. Access to magicka/stamina return with the new Necrotic Orb
12. Still outputs high quality nuisance damage from a safe distance
13. Third bar with Overload (more utility skills)
14. Lightning skills apply concussed.
15. Encase spam.
16. Other high quality utility skills like Mines and Dark Exchange

Cons:
1. Cannot group defile (dark flare)
2. Nova - (trials damage mitigation)

1. Lich is not Sorc specific.

It is light armor, however. Sorcerer survives in light armor with shields in PvP. Templars don't. I kill templars in light armor.

4. Necropotence is not a good healer set

Its an excellent healer set in PvP, since is serves multiple roles. Bigger resource pool, Bigger heals with more max, and bigger wards with a higher pool. Which again is survivability. Trials healing does not work in PvP.

6. BoL can't die or bug out

I've addressed that in previous comments.

8. You missed one
9. Any magicka class can use Harness Magicka and shields are not that important in 4 man which is what you seem to be discussing

I'm discussing a broad range of content. For Battlegrounds and Cyrodil, both which are large parts of the game, shields are incredibly important.

11. All classes can use combat prayer............
13. All classes cna use Healing Springs.............
14. All classes can use Healing Ward........... HOW ARE THESE PROS FOR SORCS?????

My point exactly. The major skills that actually matter aren't templar specific.Thats why I compared it to the new BoL.

16. Mobility in 4 man content for Healers? Who cares?

PvP content. Templars are slow. They also have horrible CC. Streak does both.

18. Nova>Negate

I agree in PvE. Already listed that as a con to the sorc. No nova. In PvP Negate is superior or a wash. But my original comparison was to Ulti heal. Not sure how you substituted in Nova here.

20. Shards has better pin point accuracy and easier to pick up. Don't have to run for it and gives the templar resources back too if morphed to that.

Point of this comment is that necrotic orb is a new addition that closes the gap between something sorc had 0 access to before, to something that's marginally worse than templar.

22. Radiant Oppression. Until the change it it can ignore certain bosses mechanics and can beam down some bosses really fast, see Darkshade 2 and ICP.

Not sure why we're talking about radiant oppression under a Pro sorc healer list. That's a very situational comment anyways.

24. If you have enough time for it you won't need to do it cause you might as well attack at that point.

In PvP overload third bar is amazing. I use it all the time effectively. Most quality sorcs do. In PvE you can slot skills that don't require constant access like Purge.

26. All you need is a lightning back bar on your templar with charged trait and shock glyph with Blockade of Storm and you are golden, this is something a lot of templars already do.

Point is this is something inherent to the sorc. Not something he has to do special with his items.

28. Since Meta is DK Tanks, and even in next update with Wardens we got Tanks using AoE immobility skills, encase from healers is not needed.

That's fine if you're running a tank. The goal of small group content is the maximize the use of each individual role. Adding more players isn't always feasible (battlegrounds).

30. Templars also have skill for sustain, and mines is the same as Encase in terms of immobility so again, TANKS.

Or i could have my healer do it, maximize his utility to the group, and add another more useful role than a tank. Not all content requires a tank.

Now here is something that you should have put as a pro for sorc healers, Empowering ward gives Minor intellect in an AoE around the sorc and considering Mag is still meta and probably will be after the update it will be really helpful. But other than that non of the Sorc skills really compare to the templars. They also have lower ultimate cost and other resource management passives that you missed to address. They also have high health if using the Matriarch.

Templars have:

1. Radiant Aura, a AoE minor magikasteal

This is one of the major ones I missed.

3. Extended Ritual, AoE HoT with a synergy and a purge

The Hot isn't that strong, and in mobile fights requires a lot of recasting. It is an amazing self-cleanse. Templar are still required to run purge regardless. Syngery isn't really used.

5. Channeled Focus, Major Ward and Resolve skill that also gives back magicka overtime

Its a nice skill. What does this have to do with healing, again? Are you listing out all the templar skills? If so, Crystal fragments is pretty awesome. Lightning form is also actively on the sorc. Doesnt require him to stand in a stationary circle. Same buff.

8. Sacred Ground, even with the nerf it will be 100% uptime on Minor Mending, something a sorc would have to use a full 5p set to get. And both only have access to Major Mending with Restoration staff heavy attack

Most healing is overhealing. This is a nice buff, but inconsequential for the most part.

9. Master Ritualist, resurrects allies faster than any class and resurrects them with more health

This is true, good point. Definite con.

11. Nova, AoE Major Maim, reducing enemy damage by 30%

Why are we talking about Nova again. Its above.

13. Stronger Quick Siphon, because of their Minor Mending they get a stronger Minor Lifesteal than Sorcs, giving out a stronger HoT.

Why are we talking about minor mending again. Its above.

15. Illuminate, Minor Sorcery>Minor Prophecy.

This is nit picking at this point. That's a wash.

17. Dark Flare, Class Major Defile skill

Already listed.

19. Purifying Light: Large amount of Damage and another class HoT.
22. Power of the Light, Minor Fracture and Minor Breach, strong debuffs that increases teams DPS

These are good skills, but not deal breakers. I didn't list every sorc ability available. Just hitting the highlights.

24. Balanced Warrior, Spell resistance increasing survivabilty.

Sorc gets ultimate cost reduction...? I dont know why we're listing every skill and passive available to each class. You're missing the point.

26. With their large selection of HoT's they can keep up SPC without having to spam abilities like a mad man.

Have you ever used SPC? It's like 1 healing springs.

28. Radiant Oppression, strong Execute that goes through certain bosses damage shields until it gets fixed as mentioned above.

You really like radiant oppression.

30. Luminous shards, better accuracy than a Necrotic orb, but with down side that you have to wait with throwing a 2nd one until first is picked up, it however makes that up by giving the Templar the same resources that the synergy user gets back to the caster, 20s cooldown though on that effect.

We already talked about this.

32. Puncturing sweeps, with their large HoT potential they can focus more on damage and a skill like this can deal a lot of damage while also healing the caster.

Again you're just aimlessly listing every skill the class has available. Its like if I said sorcerer has Velacious Curse and templar does not.


I'm sure I missed a few but there is still a lot in the Templars corner in terms of healing. I would go into how much the Warden have over a sorc but this is not on the right section of the forums for that.

F7sus4 wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

You can dream, but Templar is still Queen Bee. o:

This whole Sorcerer "healer" fanatism is reaching vegan level lately.

BigES wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

I started a pros/cons list on why I would ever play a Templar healer over a Sorcerer. Without the removal of many class specifics like Major Mending, Repentance, Shards... I couldn't find many cons. Here's the Pro list.

Pros
1. Lich
2. Necropotence
3. Twilight heal is better than the old 3 target BoL.
5. Massive shields. Massive magicka.
6. Combat Prayer > New BoL (more targets + more utility buff)
7. Healing Springs > New BoL (more targets)
8. Healing Ward >= New BoL (not directional - shield (cannot be defiled) is better than a small 50% directional heal)
9. Mobility (streak)
10. Negate >= Ulti Heal
11. Access to magicka/stamina return with the new Necrotic Orb
12. Still outputs high quality nuisance damage from a safe distance
13. Third bar with Overload (more utility skills)
14. Lightning skills apply concussed.
15. Encase spam.
16. Other high quality utility skills like Mines and Dark Exchange

Cons:
1. Cannot group defile (dark flare)
2. Nova - (trials damage mitigation)

1. Lich is not Sorc specific.

It is light armor, however. Sorcerer survives in light armor with shields in PvP. Templars don't. I kill templars in light armor.

4. Necropotence is not a good healer set

Its an excellent healer set in PvP, since is serves multiple roles. Bigger resource pool, Bigger heals with more max, and bigger wards with a higher pool. Which again is survivability. Trials healing does not work in PvP.

6. BoL can't die or bug out

I've addressed that in previous comments.

8. You missed one
9. Any magicka class can use Harness Magicka and shields are not that important in 4 man which is what you seem to be discussing

I'm discussing a broad range of content. For Battlegrounds and Cyrodil, both which are large parts of the game, shields are incredibly important.

11. All classes can use combat prayer............
13. All classes cna use Healing Springs.............
14. All classes can use Healing Ward........... HOW ARE THESE PROS FOR SORCS?????

My point exactly. The major skills that actually matter aren't templar specific.Thats why I compared it to the new BoL.

16. Mobility in 4 man content for Healers? Who cares?

PvP content. Templars are slow. They also have horrible CC. Streak does both.

18. Nova>Negate

I agree in PvE. Already listed that as a con to the sorc. No nova. In PvP Negate is superior or a wash. But my original comparison was to Ulti heal. Not sure how you substituted in Nova here.

20. Shards has better pin point accuracy and easier to pick up. Don't have to run for it and gives the templar resources back too if morphed to that.

Point of this comment is that necrotic orb is a new addition that closes the gap between something sorc had 0 access to before, to something that's marginally worse than templar.

22. Radiant Oppression. Until the change it it can ignore certain bosses mechanics and can beam down some bosses really fast, see Darkshade 2 and ICP.

Not sure why we're talking about radiant oppression under a Pro sorc healer list. That's a very situational comment anyways.

24. If you have enough time for it you won't need to do it cause you might as well attack at that point.

In PvP overload third bar is amazing. I use it all the time effectively. Most quality sorcs do. In PvE you can slot skills that don't require constant access like Purge.

26. All you need is a lightning back bar on your templar with charged trait and shock glyph with Blockade of Storm and you are golden, this is something a lot of templars already do.

Point is this is something inherent to the sorc. Not something he has to do special with his items.

28. Since Meta is DK Tanks, and even in next update with Wardens we got Tanks using AoE immobility skills, encase from healers is not needed.

That's fine if you're running a tank. The goal of small group content is the maximize the use of each individual role. Adding more players isn't always feasible (battlegrounds).

30. Templars also have skill for sustain, and mines is the same as Encase in terms of immobility so again, TANKS.

Or i could have my healer do it, maximize his utility to the group, and add another more useful role than a tank. Not all content requires a tank.

Now here is something that you should have put as a pro for sorc healers, Empowering ward gives Minor intellect in an AoE around the sorc and considering Mag is still meta and probably will be after the update it will be really helpful. But other than that non of the Sorc skills really compare to the templars. They also have lower ultimate cost and other resource management passives that you missed to address. They also have high health if using the Matriarch.

Templars have:

1. Radiant Aura, a AoE minor magikasteal

This is one of the major ones I missed.

3. Extended Ritual, AoE HoT with a synergy and a purge

The Hot isn't that strong, and in mobile fights requires a lot of recasting. It is an amazing self-cleanse. Templar are still required to run purge regardless. Syngery isn't really used.

5. Channeled Focus, Major Ward and Resolve skill that also gives back magicka overtime

Its a nice skill. What does this have to do with healing, again? Are you listing out all the templar skills? If so, Crystal fragments is pretty awesome. Lightning form is also actively on the sorc. Doesnt require him to stand in a stationary circle. Same buff.

8. Sacred Ground, even with the nerf it will be 100% uptime on Minor Mending, something a sorc would have to use a full 5p set to get. And both only have access to Major Mending with Restoration staff heavy attack

Most healing is overhealing. This is a nice buff, but inconsequential for the most part.

9. Master Ritualist, resurrects allies faster than any class and resurrects them with more health

This is true, good point. Definite con.

11. Nova, AoE Major Maim, reducing enemy damage by 30%

Why are we talking about Nova again. Its above.

13. Stronger Quick Siphon, because of their Minor Mending they get a stronger Minor Lifesteal than Sorcs, giving out a stronger HoT.

Why are we talking about minor mending again. Its above.

15. Illuminate, Minor Sorcery>Minor Prophecy.

This is nit picking at this point. That's a wash.

17. Dark Flare, Class Major Defile skill

Already listed.

19. Purifying Light: Large amount of Damage and another class HoT.
22. Power of the Light, Minor Fracture and Minor Breach, strong debuffs that increases teams DPS

These are good skills, but not deal breakers. I didn't list every sorc ability available. Just hitting the highlights.

24. Balanced Warrior, Spell resistance increasing survivabilty.

Sorc gets ultimate cost reduction...? I dont know why we're listing every skill and passive available to each class. You're missing the point.

26. With their large selection of HoT's they can keep up SPC without having to spam abilities like a mad man.

Have you ever used SPC? It's like 1 healing springs.

28. Radiant Oppression, strong Execute that goes through certain bosses damage shields until it gets fixed as mentioned above.

You really like radiant oppression.

30. Luminous shards, better accuracy than a Necrotic orb, but with down side that you have to wait with throwing a 2nd one until first is picked up, it however makes that up by giving the Templar the same resources that the synergy user gets back to the caster, 20s cooldown though on that effect.

We already talked about this.

32. Puncturing sweeps, with their large HoT potential they can focus more on damage and a skill like this can deal a lot of damage while also healing the caster.

Again you're just aimlessly listing every skill the class has available. Its like if I said sorcerer has Velacious Curse and templar does not.


I'm sure I missed a few but there is still a lot in the Templars corner in terms of healing. I would go into how much the Warden have over a sorc but this is not on the right section of the forums for that.

In total i have two good points here. Group Minor magickasteal, and increased resurrection speed. Definite class defining benefits.

paulsimonps wrote: »

Templars>Sorcs/DK/NB, for both 4-man, Overworld, and PvP as well as Trials even though OP didn't wish to discuss that. I would talk about the warden more but this is not posted in the right section for that sadly. All I can say is that I will be running them in trials for sure, no question.

paulsimonps wrote: »

Oh sweet jesus respond to comments like a normal person. This is such a mess to read, dear god! Also yes I was focusing heavily on PvE, cause that is what I know, a healer in PvP can be whatever really. Also you missed my point, which was for PvE sorcs will currently never out do a Templar, too many thing in pros for them. Sure you can run whatever niche build you want in PvP, but 4 man PvE content and overland is not for sorc healers if you want to min max. Also you if you think Extended Ritual is a meh heal then just... Stacking HoT is one of the main things a Templar healer has, I can put 3-4 HoT down and then DPS and give a lot more in 4 man content than a sorc can. And since PvE Tanking Meta includes Alkosh the synergy has huge importance. And in PvP, damn when I see that synergy its like a angel from above, its been such a life saver in so many situations. But since out of all my points you only cared about 2...

It seems you are way more concerned about PvP, which well, knock yourself out, just when discussing class/role usage you should be more specific in what you are discussing. Yes the sorcs can be good in PvP, but can't come close to Templars in PvE. And again since its the wrong part of the forums we can't discuss Warden which would add a much needed layer to this discussion, but yea...