I feel they're should be a balance.

Brictoria wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Brictoria wrote: »

Why not settle for the middle ground:

• Allow drop sets to be better

BUT

• Allow crafters to be able to adjust style (Maybe require 2 style mats instead of one for crafting new item)

AND

• Allow (8/9/set dependant number) crafters to be able to change trait in similar way that tempers work - and make the result Bind on Pickup (Or add additional crafting option (with suitably high cost inc. 9 trait requirement) to make item Bind on Equip, or remove binding from themselves but Bind on Pickup activates for new owner)

This way those who want to grind for sets/items aren't forced to craft and crafters can still get items they want without being forced to run content they don't want...And with the ability to move items from "Bind on Pickup" to "Bind on Equip" even PVP players should be happy.

What? this is not a middle ground.
its a complete surrender.
style is the only unique thing brought right now by crafted set (comparing to mael/master wpns, jewels, monster sets and wpn/jewel sets for drops)- you give that up when you let drops style be altered.
trait and grind time is the most significant non-unique deficit for drops now, specifically for weapons and again you give that possibility to drops.

if this went thru, also change blacksmithing, clothing and woodworking into one skill line called alterations" with six passives - one for traits/looks and one for quiality for each former"craft" and get rid of actually making gear beyond consumables.

Not worth 60+sp and tons of time to just alter other folks drops in an "only BoP drops matter" world by whatever mechanism they put in.

How is it a surrender?

You still need to know the style on the crafter, still need to have researched the trait (and potentially need to be 9-trait craft on item), and finally crafting time will have a reward where you can use it. It would also mean that finally training/prosperous items have value outside of published vendor values...

Another (very messy) alternative could involve being able to research sets in the same way as traits...But only after hitting 9-trait on the item you are researching the set for, or tuneable workstations which can be tuned from drops and need 9-trait crafting.

Because you are giving up the ONLY unique advantage crafteds have (style) and mitigating the disad drops have (traitvgrind cost) and all crafting gets in return is more busy work supporting drop sets.

If you see the reason for being of crafting skills as keep busy supporting other folks stuff for gold then that idea does the trick but imo the skills cost needs to go way way down.

I see crafting as being about what you can create and want crafted gear to be a part of the whole game...

Basically 60sp to play alterations for gold where effectively you are a glorified hireling passive... way over priced.

I disagree. DIFFERENT... not better. *deleted long argument for my statement*. I'm all about choice.

nimander99 wrote: »

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

It took over a year to learn all traits, not to mention the massive amount of time and effort in earning every motif in game.

GTHO with your drops should be better than crafted gear.

You run a dungeon. get you key, get your drop. maybe you run it a bunch of times, but you still get it in less than the 3 years its taken me to learn every trait and earn every motif.

And never mind the time crafters spend hunting materials.

Thank you!

i think anyone that thinks like that just didn't take the time to research traits

@OutLaw_Nynx I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly, so much gets lost in text, are you making fun of me or agreeing with me, id just appreciate a little clarity.

Cause it reads like you are saying I didn't take the time to research all the traits... And I'm not sure if that's what you meant.

@nimander99

Ah no, I was agreeing with you!

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

It took over a year to learn all traits, not to mention the massive amount of time and effort in earning every motif in game.

GTHO with your drops should be better than crafted gear.

You run a dungeon. get you key, get your drop. maybe you run it a bunch of times, but you still get it in less than the 3 years its taken me to learn every trait and earn every motif.

And never mind the time crafters spend hunting materials.

Thank you!

i think anyone that thinks like that just didn't take the time to research traits

@OutLaw_Nynx I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly, so much gets lost in text, are you making fun of me or agreeing with me, id just appreciate a little clarity.

Cause it reads like you are saying I didn't take the time to research all the traits... And I'm not sure if that's what you meant.

@nimander99

Ah no, I was agreeing with you!

Thanks for the clarification @OutLaw_Nynx

OP you are dead wrong. And so is ZOS for using the garbage RNG loot system they have.

The correct system is one that requires crafting AND using special materials only gained through completing specific content. Then players can craft the things they need/want after participating in the content instead of having their posterior pulverized endlessly by abusive RNG. It's an absolute shame how so many games fail to get this simple thing right, but ESPECIALLY ESO which has a great foundational crafting system.

Keep_Door wrote: »

This should be easy for anyone to understand. I mean a crafted set you can make the perfect trait 100% of the time get all the pieces you need and not to mention in your favorite style.

Dropped sets take time, hours, weeks, hell sometimes even months to get the prefect traits.

That being said crafting shouldnt be useless. I dont think it is. Sure compared to some dropped sets crafted sets seem week but thats how it should be.

Part of the reason I bought ESO in the first place is because I love crafting, and I loved the idea that ZOS promoted early on that crafted armor would always be stronger than dropped gear. And then they took that out. And then they kept introducing dropped sets that changed the game, and reduced the utility of crafted gear. Player made sets never improved. Some even got nerfed. And then they kept introducing crafted sets that really had no real utility in most gameplay, and never went back to update existing sets to give them any sort of functionality to keep them current.

Crafted sets have never changed to keep up with the game's changes.

I'm not saying crafted gear has to be BIS, but it really should be better than it is currently.

> Dropped sets take time, hours, weeks, hell sometimes even months to get the prefect traits.

And becoming a 9/9 trait crafter took 9+ months of research. It took a ton of time. Don't discount my love for crafting, researching every trait and literally hunting down every motif only to get a "lol, sucks to be you!".

There should be pros/cons to every set in the game. Sadly, for crafting, most of the sets are JUST cons.

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

There is absolutely no reason any crafted set should be even close to equal to drop gear. That is like saying to every single scrub in the game here is a free sharpened vMA staff,moondancer and bsw in perfect traits.No way,The you spent researching is long,but is it time logged in? Hell no.And on the cost thing. People have told me they would pay me real money for some bis slot drops before. Can't say that's the case with crafted gear.

In my view, crafted sets should be all around great choices for *general* sets. They're not entirely specialized, but they are really strong at doing basic tasks. Hunding's Rage and Julianos are good examples of that. They're not BIS, but they're great basic sets that "stack some damage" sets. Not all sets are like this.

Dropped sets should have unique flavors, things that set them apart and can't be found anywhere else in game. Things like Minor Slayer from Moondancer, Viscous Ophidian and Infallible. Set bonuses you can't get anywhere else. Those are things that set apart dropped sets from crafted.

Now let's compare a crafted set with the closet possible dropped set:

Ashen Grip
(One of the easiest sets to make.)
(2 items) Adds 1064 Max Health
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(4 items) Adds 688 Weapon Critical
(5 items) When you deal direct melee damage, you have a 10% chance to breath fire to all enemies in front of you for 1544 Flame Damage. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.

Coat of the Red Mountain
(One of the first dropped sets you can get in the overworld)
(2 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(3 items) Adds 967 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 688 Weapon Critical
(5 items) When you deal damage with a Weapon ability, you have a 10% chance to deal an additional 8400 Flame Damage. This effect can occur once every 2 seconds.

Do you see the difference? Because one of these is pretty good and the other is a joke. The fact is most crafted sets aren't anywhere near comparable with the standard run of the mill dropped set. In fact, by comparison, most of the easily obtained dropped sets in the overworld are easy to obtain, are cheap, and have the benefit of coming with jewelry.

Malamar1229 wrote: »

@STEVIL did you play SWG? before all hell went loose at Sony, there was a "dungeon" that contained a timed crafting station. A guild would bring their crafter and have like 5 minutes to craft Mandalorian armor.

Likewise, Ive suggested before that Zos can get dungeon replay by adding special drops to bosses to fuel the crafting economy. Like components used in the crafting process.

also, if style motifs were consumed upon use (meaning 1 use motif per item crafted) it would stimumate crafting enconomy, keep style rare, and increase demand on a somewhat stagnant market. of course, motif drop rates would need to be increased a bit.

For me the main thing about crafting is whether or not you can make useful things.

Consumables - these crafts take less time to master than equip crafting by so much its laughable and cost the same skills to use and they produce stuff that is way far ahead of every drop there is. There is absolutely no question, you use crafted enchants, potions, poisons and/or food/drinks except maybe when killing time against scrub.

Am i missing the threads about how badly that kills the game?
Am i missing the threads about how important it is that dropped elixirs be better than crafted ones?

these can impact directly every aspect of your play - offense, defense, sustain, sneak and movement as well as even the basic experience point gain. They have as much or more impact as some sets.

Where are the threads crying for the delve bosses to absolutely wiothout wquestion drop potions better than what you can craft?

Are the on another forum category?

That is very much ample pay back for the skills invested. maybe too much since for the most part when it matters nobody uses drops for consumables.

For equipment crafting, which takes eons longer and just as many skills and for motifs more hunt/gather/buy... I am NOT advocating for that degree of superiority or even superiority at all. i want some unique elements that guarantee a place at the table alongside drops in endgame builds or at least if not guarantee it make it more likely for some areas. i would love to see it be true that every serious build was a combination of crafted and drops - so that both would get their due.

its not for me about "the crafting economy" or finding new ways for crafters to fill their time with busy work... its about crafting being as relevant to end game as it can be given its investment in Sp.

Consider this point:

Weapon skills cost about 20sp or so as well to get filled out.

Right now, in end game type stuff:
DW is part of the strong stam group trial pve dps dw/bow.
2H is part of the strong stam pvp 2h/bow
BOW - see above
S-S is part of many defensive or tank builds in either pve pr pvp end game
DESTRO is part of most magica builds in pve and pve.
RESTO is oft seen on healer and on backbar for lots play endgame.

Now imagine if you will that out of those six weapon lines for all pve and pvp types of content THREE were discarded for any content as "they were for convenience not for end game" or were earmarked as "these should be less than what you need endgame".

heck imagine if even one of those had little to no role in endgame across the board.

it would be seen as a problem.

it would be being dealt with.

Each right now has a place at the table - just different seats at different parts of the table - but each has a place thaqt is more than "just keeping it warm until Uncle Dropsie arrives."

Ideas like dungeons dropping pieces so crafters can stay busy or whatever is not the answer to this issue - just because you make giving away style control require more grinding doesn't stop the result only slows the death spiral.

But the key part is that IF crafted and drops had unique seats at the end game table then there wouldn't need to be this either/or - both could be good and neither would see the effort it took to get the skills and play to do them disrespected. Whether you like crafted or drops as parts of game play, everyone would be on the same page if both had seats at the table when it came to the endgame wedding receptions to join this gear in the bonds of "top drawer build status."

The game from launch was never supposed to be an RNG dungeon grind. There was supposed to be a very heavy focus on crafting gear.

That original vision is dead in the current state of the game, with crafting being more of a "gotta catch them all" mini game.

If it could be done all over:

1) All set gear is crafted, including jewelry. Random stuff (x helmet of health) would still drop.
2) Completely rework the temper system.
2a) Green tempers drop from overland/delve/public dungeon/dolmen enemies, refined from raw mats.
2b) Blue tempers drop from group dungeon enemies/public dungeon bosses at a %chance. 100% chance from group dungeon bosses.
2c) Purple tempers from vet dungeon/normal trial enemies at a % chance, 100% from vet dungeon/normal trial bosses.
2d) Gold tempers drop in vet trials at a % chance, 100% from vet trial bosses.
2e) Tempers of all kinds are also rewarded in PvP at whatever levels are commiserate with PvE diffculty.
2f) Possibly tempers as quest rewards.
3) 1 Temper = 1 100% upgrade of a piece of equipment. Must still go in order (Green->Blue->Purple->Gold).
4) Tempers are NOT BoP and can be sold.
5) Once you upgrade an item, it becomes bound.
6) Scrape the Temper-based skills in each craft skill line (both the refinement and upgrade)
7) Deconstructed items (crafted/dropped) of a specific quality have a small base chance to return a temper of that quality. This can't be increased.

There ya go. All gear is crafted by crafters with the best sets still requiring a certain number of researched traits. Thus crafters supply the best sets and all are on equal footing except with regards to time spent researching.

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

vyrzeden wrote: »

If it could be done all over:


2d) Gold tempers drop in vet trials at a % chance, 100% from vet trial bosses.
2e) Tempers of all kinds are also rewarded in PvP at whatever levels are commiserate with PvE diffculty.
2f) Possibly tempers as quest rewards.


There ya go. All gear is crafted by crafters with the best sets still requiring a certain number of researched traits. Thus crafters supply the best sets and all are on equal footing except with regards to time spent researching.

I would be strongly against that.. Why would I, as a crafter, have to be forced into trials/PvP to get a better chance for my gold tempers?

If you are going to quote me, why don't you quote the whole thing?

4) Tempers are NOT BoP and can be sold.

If crafters can sell to trial runners/PvP, why can't they turn around and sell to crafters?