ZOS - do not follow in Bioware's footsteps

Subversus · April 2017

Bioware is the developer of the MMO known as SWTOR. An amazing game ruined by the lack of communication between the devs and the community.

During patch 3.0 (yeah really funny) they completely dumbed down the combat and ability system "to cater for new players". This was the change that started a chain reaction and effectively killed off 90%+ of the game's eng game population. They are starting to listen now, but it's too little too (extremely) late.

Do not make the same mistake. Listen to the community. We are the ones playing your game. It doesn't matter if you think the changes are good, if we don't we will simply stop playing.

Arenguros · April 2017

Yeah, with the difference, this isn't "dumbing it down", it's actually a change to make the game more challenging and to restore the initial games state where resources did matter.

Also there are more than enough voices in the community that like at least the direction these changes are meant to go (even though the actual implementation is questionable and fails to deliver for the most part).

Berenhir · April 2017

Whatever ZOS intended with the changes to sustain, it actually makes the game much harder for new players, especially in environments where they have to compete against experienced players like PvP.

So this is actually not catering to new players but widening the skill gap between experienced and new players, even though the numbers of bottom and ceiling might come a bit closer together.

Subversus · April 2017

^ guys that's not the point, that was a mere example. Point is that they should listen to us. While I do agree that the sustain needs seizable nerfs, this is not the way to do it.

As it currently stands this is not better, this is absolute worse. Wanted pvp to feel closer to what it felt at launch? This is not how you do it.

FlyLionel · April 2017

As long as they address class balance even more and make endgame PVE something that not only the best of the best can complete(VMOL for example non hard mode) it should be alright. PVP personally I love the changes(poisons are overkill though). I have yet to hear of anyone doing a vet trial on PTS(cp 300 templates are the problem?). If the vet trials are fine and all that was needed was two dps using hircine veneer and worm cult...selenes web here I come.

Lucky28 · April 2017

Arenguros wrote: »

Yeah, with the difference, this isn't "dumbing it down", it's actually a change to make the game more challenging and to restore the initial games state where resources did matter.

Also there are more than enough voices in the community that like at least the direction these changes are meant to go (even though the actual implementation is questionable and fails to deliver for the most part).

depends on your perspective. it could be called challenging in a sense, though i'd sooner call combat in Morrowind "annoying" rather than "challenging" there is nothing really complex about resource management in ESO it's rather dull in fact.

though i will agree that this change hurts everyone. think this might do more to turn new players away from the game rather than cater to them..... i don't even know what this patch is all about it's just self-destructive really.

zaria · April 2017

Berenhir wrote: »

Whatever ZOS intended with the changes to sustain, it actually makes the game much harder for new players, especially in environments where they have to compete against experienced players like PvP.

So this is actually not catering to new players but widening the skill gap between experienced and new players, even though the numbers of bottom and ceiling might come a bit closer together.

Overland questing take little skills, yes its an huge advantage being able to kill stuff fast so you you progress faster.
An simple one bar rotation works well for this.
However the nerf don't affect overland/ questing content as you will not run out of resource killing something with 150k health.

Now group dungeons will be even more of an shock for an new causuals as you suddenly will run out of resources all the time. Even public dungeons teach you nothing about this.

Ajaxduo · April 2017

Subversus wrote: »

Bioware is the developer of the MMO known as SWTOR. An amazing game ruined by the lack of communication between the devs and the community.

During patch 3.0 (yeah really funny) they completely dumbed down the combat and ability system "to cater for new players". This was the change that started a chain reaction and effectively killed off 90%+ of the game's eng game population. They are starting to listen now, but it's too little too (extremely) late.

Do not make the same mistake. Listen to the community. We are the ones playing your game. It doesn't matter if you think the changes are good, if we don't we will simply stop playing.

lol SWTOR was gutted a long time ago, endless broken promises which killed the progression raiding community. General balance changes is fine, but I'm not okay with homogenization.

Elsonso · April 2017

Subversus wrote: »

Point is that they should listen to us. While I do agree that the sustain needs seizable nerfs, this is not the way to do it.

As it currently stands this is not better, this is absolute worse. Wanted pvp to feel closer to what it felt at launch? This is not how you do it.

They are listening to people in the forum. Yeah, they are bad at communicating, and tend to let things fester in here until it is too late to stop it, but they are listening.

To be fair, some people in the forum don't listen to ZOS, even when ZOS does communicate. ZOS will say things, and some people in the forum will act like they never did. We even get people who distort what ZOS says and turn it into something they did not say.

The bottom line is that they are listening to people in the forum. They obviously intend on making changes to Morrowind class balance and resource changes based on what is said in here. (they said so) It is the reason they are doing PTS in the first place. We just don't know what those changes are until they open the curtain and say "ta da!". That is the root of their communication problems with PTS, and they rarely break silence when it comes to this. It is frequently one-way "communication" in here.

Just because they are listening does not mean they are going to do it. If that is what you want from them listening, then you will be disappointed in a number of things this PTS period.

SanTii.92 · April 2017

Could you briefly sum up the changes that bioware made? I'm curious now.

DaveMoeDee · April 2017

Subversus wrote: »

^ guys that's not the point, that was a mere example. Point is that they should listen to us. While I do agree that the sustain needs seizable nerfs, this is not the way to do it.

As it currently stands this is not better, this is absolute worse. Wanted pvp to feel closer to what it felt at launch? This is not how you do it.

There is no one "us." There is no shortage of disagreement among the player base.

Dracane · April 2017

Exactly. The players must like the game and pay for it. What the devs believe is best, should be secondary at best.

NightbladeMechanics · April 2017

Arenguros wrote: »

Yeah, with the difference, this isn't "dumbing it down", it's actually a change to make the game more challenging and to restore the initial games state where resources did matter.

Also there are more than enough voices in the community that like at least the direction these changes are meant to go (even though the actual implementation is questionable and fails to deliver for the most part).

People are more enraged by erosion of class uniqueness by removing mechanics than by general sustain nerfs right now.

CultOfMMO · April 2017

Subversus wrote: »

Do not make the same mistake. Listen to the community. We are the ones playing your game. It doesn't matter if you think the changes are good, if we don't we will simply stop playing.

This right here about sums it all up.

ZOS needs to remember whose paying their mortgages and sending their kids to school

aeowulf · April 2017

same thing happened in lotro a few years back. it's why i ended up in ESO... in lotro is was a complete rebalance of the classes. i don't know if anyone here played a warden there (haha) but they used a form of gambit and agro was made by casting snares/dots and other high agro things (but not a lot of damage) stuff on mobs. pretty cool and logical, you annoy the mob, he hits you.

all the classes got reworked, and all the end game players quit. i went back to the forums 3 months after i left and my last post was still on page 1 of class discussion, it went dead...

the thing that is annoying me right now is the lack of comment on the change to NB sustain, yes it was great but that was the only thing NB's had going for them. that's gone now, i expect trial leaderboards to be populated by even less that 1 in 20 players playing NB. Templars fumed and got an explanation at least. The NB class nerf is HUGE. Sorc get no nerf, and DK got minimal, or even a buff in some circumstances. Were the classes that unbalanced in favour of NB before? not according to trial leaderboards, quite the opposite in fact.

Sigtric · April 2017

aeowulf wrote: »

same thing happened in lotro a few years back. it's why i ended up in ESO... in lotro is was a complete rebalance of the classes. i don't know if anyone here played a warden there (haha) but they used a form of gambit and agro was made by casting snares/dots and other high agro things (but not a lot of damage) stuff on mobs. pretty cool and logical, you annoy the mob, he hits you.

all the classes got reworked, and all the end game players quit. i went back to the forums 3 months after i left and my last post was still on page 1 of class discussion, it went dead...

the thing that is annoying me right now is the lack of comment on the change to NB sustain, yes it was great but that was the only thing NB's had going for them. that's gone now, i expect trial leaderboards to be populated by even less that 1 in 20 players playing NB. Templars fumed and got an explanation at least. The NB class nerf is HUGE. Sorc get no nerf, and DK got minimal, or even a buff in some circumstances. Were the classes that unbalanced in favour of NB before? not according to trial leaderboards, quite the opposite in fact.

This was what killed LOTRO for me as well. It was a real pain seeing what was going on in the closed beta and them holding onto the NDA for so long up to HD release.

It completely gutted my characters I had for 7ish years or whatever it was at the time. They played nothing like how they were before. They became dull, uninteresting carbon copies of every other character of the same class out there.

Subversus · April 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Could you briefly sum up the changes that bioware made? I'm curious now.

So SWTOR had a skill tree mechanic yeah? It was somewhat of a more complicated version of CP, where you unlock all your abilities and passives, making it possible to build your character how you wanted. What they did was remove all that choice and pick the points themselves and assign to different roles and classes. So instead of having the choice to build your character you basically had it set up for you.

They also drastically changes class mechanics exactly like ZO$E is doing now, except for the reason: Bioware wanted to dumb down the game, our beloved wrobel wants to make it harder.

Oh yeah and the final nail in the coffin was when they announced that they won't release any new group content because of the focus on the "solo experience". They only recently started changing their minds when they realized that ppl are quitting in masses...

Ajaxduo wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Bioware is the developer of the MMO known as SWTOR. An amazing game ruined by the lack of communication between the devs and the community.

During patch 3.0 (yeah really funny) they completely dumbed down the combat and ability system "to cater for new players". This was the change that started a chain reaction and effectively killed off 90%+ of the game's eng game population. They are starting to listen now, but it's too little too (extremely) late.

Do not make the same mistake. Listen to the community. We are the ones playing your game. It doesn't matter if you think the changes are good, if we don't we will simply stop playing.

lol SWTOR was gutted a long time ago, endless broken promises which killed the progression raiding community. General balance changes is fine, but I'm not okay with homogenization.

3.0 was indeed a long time ago... game was amazing before that, steady flow of new PvE content, we still had our top tier rading guilds (that moved to wow 1 patch later...) and the ranked pvp scene was flourishing. Imo path 2.X was the best time the game has ever had (and I played it since beta).

aeowulf · April 2017

Sigtric wrote: »

This was what killed LOTRO for me as well. It was a real pain seeing what was going on in the closed beta and them holding onto the NDA for so long up to HD release.

It completely gutted my characters I had for 7ish years or whatever it was at the time. They played nothing like how they were before. They became dull, uninteresting carbon copies of every other character of the same class out there.

I was on Laurelin, my guild went from regular weekly raids to dead in under a month. All wardens and rune keepers just switched off because their class was changed so much, and those that left took their friends/partners with them.

Rohamad_Ali · April 2017

I never considered swtor an amazing game . SWG , the game it crapped on was an amazing game but you are correct in advising not to mimic Bioware's course . They did gut that game even more .

F7sus4 · April 2017

Subversus wrote: »

Bioware is the developer of the MMO known as SWTOR. An amazing game ruined by the lack of communication between the devs and the community.

During patch 3.0 (yeah really funny) they completely dumbed down the combat and ability system "to cater for new players". This was the change that started a chain reaction and effectively killed off 90%+ of the game's eng game population. They are starting to listen now, but it's too little too (extremely) late.

Do not make the same mistake. Listen to the community. We are the ones playing your game. It doesn't matter if you think the changes are good, if we don't we will simply stop playing.

That's exactly what they're doing. 3.0.1 is basically ZOS' golden rain on pro-players PTS feedback.

Marto · April 2017

Here's the problem: How do you listen to a community where 50% of suggestions are garbage, and the other 50% are polar and extremely divisive?

Sigtric · April 2017

aeowulf wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

This was what killed LOTRO for me as well. It was a real pain seeing what was going on in the closed beta and them holding onto the NDA for so long up to HD release.

It completely gutted my characters I had for 7ish years or whatever it was at the time. They played nothing like how they were before. They became dull, uninteresting carbon copies of every other character of the same class out there.

I was on Laurelin, my guild went from regular weekly raids to dead in under a month. All wardens and rune keepers just switched off because their class was changed so much, and those that left took their friends/partners with them.

And it wasn't just the wardens and RKs all classes were left gimped

My Dwarf hunter suffered the worst. After the change the only thing that set him apart from other hunters was being one of the few dwarves doing it

F7sus4 · April 2017

Marto wrote: »

Here's the problem: How do you listen to a community where 50% of suggestions are garbage, and the other 50% are polar and extremely divisive?

It's not a problem at all when they recognize most of their top-tier raiding community. And yes - they do.

Derra · April 2017

Ironically bioware made the same mistakes with swtors bgs (and tried to fix them afterwards) zos is making now.

Jacozilla · April 2017

Sustain does not need nerfs, not for PVE. That's a narrative for some which is floated as fact when it is opinion. Just like my opinion it is not. Fair enough.

Having tried number of different off setting builds - can I say it is adaptable with current PTS sustain nerfs? For all content other than trials which I've yet to try, answer is yes.

But...again opinion, but for me the required adaptation, change to combat due to that adaptation, etc is a LOT less FUN. For me.

If others like the new reduced sustain meta, fine. But while I concede it is not end of world or can't be adapted to, the resulting new game is not one I find as much fun as before. If there are more people that feel differently in good numbers, then I am just a minority opinion.

If enough people feel same as me, and does not need to be a majority - just enough people more than the net new number of people added to game, then slowly or more rapidly, at some pace the game will slowly start to die as more disappointed people leave than neutral/happy players enter. Simple as that.

Am I quitting? Hardly not. Too early to jump ship yet - obviously more tweaks to come first. Then live, and if gameplay is no longer as fun as before, then some amount of time for the prior goodwill I've built up to erode slowly away. After that? Yes, if the game just feels like it does now.

When a dev changes the game so dramatically that while it bears the same name and content type but alters the fundamental things that made it fun for you - and again I concede that for some the new changes has no bearing on their fun, but does for me - then essentially all you have are the memories of Old Game #1 and are now forced into playing New Game #2.

As an optimist I'll hope for enough tweaks and changes during the PTS and the sure to come post-launch patches to change the sustain model back, but if not then I'll vote with my wallet.

Elsonso · April 2017

Marto wrote: »

Here's the problem: How do you listen to a community where 50% of suggestions are garbage, and the other 50% are polar and extremely divisive?

Listening does not equal doing.

They have to sift through the garbage to find the nuggets of ideas that will actually improve the game. A lot of people think they know how to fix the game, myself included, but without knowing the details behind the scenes, any suggestion could be garbage.

Rex-Umbra · April 2017

Zos is making the game more challenging not dumbing it down

Xvorg · April 2017

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Zos is making the game more challenging not dumbing it down

Unless you buy Warden. Then you can dance around the bosses at Hel-Ra

Poliwrath · April 2017

Derra wrote: »

Ironically bioware made the same mistakes with swtors bgs (and tried to fix them afterwards) zos is making now.

What mistakes are those?

JimT722 · April 2017

Subversus wrote: »

Bioware is the developer of the MMO known as SWTOR. An amazing game ruined by the lack of communication between the devs and the community.

During patch 3.0 (yeah really funny) they completely dumbed down the combat and ability system "to cater for new players". This was the change that started a chain reaction and effectively killed off 90%+ of the game's eng game population. They are starting to listen now, but it's too little too (extremely) late.

Do not make the same mistake. Listen to the community. We are the ones playing your game. It doesn't matter if you think the changes are good, if we don't we will simply stop playing.

They aren't trying to be SWTOR. They just copied their crown store from it.

wimhwimladimf · April 2017

Arenguros wrote: »

Yeah, with the difference, this isn't "dumbing it down", it's actually a change to make the game more challenging and to restore the initial games state where resources did matter.

Also there are more than enough voices in the community that like at least the direction these changes are meant to go (even though the actual implementation is questionable and fails to deliver for the most part).

You would be right if changes would affect new content only. However they're making old content harder (indirectly due to nerfs) which is pretty much like placing a wall between old geeks and those who never done end game content in base game.

Have you tried lvling mag Sorc on PTS from 0 without any help or dumb powerlvling? It's disaster, you will run out of mana by just killing ONE mob and then you gotta go afk until you get your mp back. It's nearly the same for all other classes. Do you know where this will lead? New people who will start playing this game (IF any) will quit pretty fast, because solo questing became simply not enjoyable.