Joy_Division wrote: »

Appreciate the many kind words.

When I look at Templars today, there are only 4 things in the entire class line that I would take over the old Templars:

• Backlash: This actually was terrible at Launch.
• Piercing Javelin: But it's the same skill just with longer range
• Honor the Dead: They fixed the bug that prevented magicka regen
• I guess Dark Flare: it does like 10% extra damage

Speaking in Dark Flare. Why did ZoS decide to make the Cliff Racer spell undodgeable because it "was too obvious" and thus too easy for opponents to do so? Has ZoS ever seen the animation for Aark Flare?!?

I know RD is good, but it's only good when I have the advantage in a fight. When Templars say we'd rather have Blinding Flashes, we actually mean it.

Did some things deserve to be nerfed? Absolutely. But ZoS didn't have to tear the soul out of the class and I still think it's is dumb that every class has had to sacrifice their uniqueness because so much power is invested in the CP system, the generic buffs, lack of soft caps, etc. You know what I say to all those people who think DKs were OP after the whole 4 cost Vampire Bats bug was fixed? I say bring on the old DKs, tell Murder Thumbs to log back into his old account. Now that I actually know how to play this game, give me the Templar listed above and I will wipe the floor with them. I will Blinding Flash, Eclipse, Cleanse Spam, and Blazing Shield their butts such that these so-called “gods” will be coming on these forums begging the devs for buffs. And even if I lose, I think the PvP would be a hell of a lot more interesting.

@NightbladeMechanics Regarding Eclipse, I guess we will just have to wait and see. I highly doubt anybody on the NA server has used this skill more than I have and I'm not buying what Zos is selling.

My main problem with the current incarnation of Eclipse is that it only reflect projectiles. What good does this do against every stamina spec I come across? The vast majority of projectiles I get hit with are Poison Injection and Snipe. Poison Injection is just typically a one-time cast and I'm only sniped by people I can't see in the first place. So what exactly am reflecting and how is this helping me in a fight? Stamplars do love Binding Javelin way too much, but ...they're templars, they can simply purge it. Or ignore it and do what every other stam spec will do to me: spam Wrecking Blow for those 3 seconds, enjoy the free CC immunity, and simply reapply poison injection then. The damage from this skill is low and it's still expensive.

As for magic builds, most DKs I run into do nothing but hold block and talon spam me, which makes Eclipse pointless. My Templar opponents laugh at this skill because they either purge it or know they can simply ignore it by sweeping me and RDing me (and thus getting free CC immunity in the process). This spell used to be fantastic against sorcerers, but now curse, Mage's Fury, crushing shock, and even heavy lighting staff are not reflectable, so like Templars that means they can ignore it and enjoy the CC immunity. Mag NBs are highly vulnerable to this spell because unlike sorcerers, everything they use is a projectile. OK, though isn't this class kind of suffering in PvP right now? Why would I use a niche ability against them?

People worried about this skill are only looking at things from their perspective; how it will effect their build. But their opinion is irrelevant. The one that counts is the Templar since we're the ones who have to weigh the opportunity cost. Since it's pretty much useless against the vast majority of opponents I face and only helpful against what is considered a weak spec ... why would I slot it?

The is what I use on my bars for Cyrodiil.

1. Defensive Posture - this is far better because it lasts 20 seconds, protects me against all spell casters, is very difficult for my opponents to see, stuns the enemy, gives me good passive block bonus.
2. Restoring Focus - not negotiable in the next patch
3. Extended Ritual - not negotiable in any patch.
4. Honor the Dead - Mandatory
5. Vampire Mist - Until Wrobel gives us an alliance war skill that allows magicka player to be mobile, this will always be on my bar. And when that day comes, the hypothetical mobility skill goes on it, not Eclipse.

1. Purifying Light - I don't have a single damage skill yet and this is a good one and can heal me too.
2. Puncturing Sweep - Bread and butter melee skill
3. Radiant Destruction - Never leave home without it
4. Reflective Light - Good Dot, snares, gives me 10% crit.
5. Elemental Drain - Highly efficient skill against every opponent I face.

Every skill I have is more useful against the vast majority of opponents I face so I'm not even going to consider Eclipse until the day comes when Mag NBs become a menace in Cyrodiil. And even then, Harness Magicka is effective Vs. them ... and everyone else. If I had two extra slots to put on my bar, I would use Toppling Charge and either Destructive Reach or Javelin or Dark Flare.

The only consideration I would give Eclipse this patch is to use the Unstable Core morph which reflect nothing. This morph also has the explosion time down to 3.5 seconds and I could use it as a poor man's Curse. It's still pretty expensive and unfortunately can be blocked, but I will fool around with it and see how it goes.

But all of this assumes I'm going to spend enough time on my Templar to care. My DK was AvA rank 24 when Imperial City was released and is only rank 27 now. Once a class ceases to be fun, I do not have problems moving on.

When Morrowind drops, I'm sure we will see a fair number of Templars try this skill. After a few weeks, I suspect they will come to understand just like the previous 3 incarnations, Eclipse is too situational of a defensive spell to count on. Since ESO only allows us ten skills, most will not slot it. Except in a duel against a Mag NB. Hopefully the NB will complain on the forums loud enough to prompt ZoS to once against change Eclipse.

If asked for my prediction, I do think after the Eclipse fad quickly runs its course, more and more Templars will experiment with the Unstable Core morph and come to realize it does have strong potential as an offense burst spell, although it is still expensive and resources are going to be an issue.

If I am wrong, feel free to bring this up. Although I have strong opinions, when wrong I will admit it rather than make excuses.

@JavaWho long time no see! Pretty sure most of us - and I suspect a fair number of other players on other classes - are feeling the same way.

@Ashamray has indeed identified the last bastion of Templar uniqueness: Purifying Ritual. It took one on the chin from ZoS this patch now only granting minor mending, but it's still there. Very much akin to people who are over 100 years old: all their friends & contemporaries have long since died, living in a world very different from the one they came of age, the very last link to a historical era that is just memories for everyone else. The day Purifying Ritual is nerfed will be the day that more than the templar's soul died, that will be the day the class is truly dead.

Normally I don't tag developers so I didn't think of it. Thank you Java for thinking this was something they should read.

Joy_Division wrote: »

While I can empathize with the frustrations many Templars have articulated on these forums, I'm not sure I agree with the more passion-driven conclusions. Looking at things objectively, do we really want to argue there isn't a point in running templar healers? Or that we somehow have a better grasp of the issue than ZoS did after months and months of internal testing?

I hate to say this, but there is a point in bringing a templar healer: they heal and will be able to do the job effectively once Morrowind drops.

It's obvious ZoS wants to limit resource sustain to a degree that prompts us to reevaluate our (perceived) lazy habits of just building for max damage. If Templars kept their exclusive hold on group resource generation, they would circumvent the entire basis of this goal that ZoS deems important. I don;t mean to be the bearer of bad news, but I highly doubt we are getting Repentance back and Shards on a separate cooldown would make Templars double the group sustainers as those classes that relied on Orbs.

ZoS will never admit this, but I'll tell you straight up: major mending is gone because of CP PvP. I play it every night and I heard Rich Lambert on ESO Live. This was as predictable to me as the sun rising in the East. I do think Wardens will have a very high up-time on Major Mending, but I suspect ZoS's adjustment will be more about scaling that back than restoring it for Templars.

Now reading this, you might think I agree with ZoS's direction. I don't. I hate it. But it is what it is. They are convinced that resource management in the game is trivial and that has damaged the integrity of the combat system. The changes they made in the patch notes are consistent with this goal and ZoS can't just revert it because we Templars are worried about becoming obsolete when nobody has played a Warden on the Live server yet.

If you really want Zos to reevaluate the changes they have made, you are going to have to convince them that ramifications of this patch are going to be detrimental to gameplay or the overall health of the franchise. This is going to be a tough sell. Because as much as people have voiced their displeasure over the patch notes, most of those very same people sympathize with Zos's overall goals. I've been on the PTS. Zos can compare my vMA score on Live (490,000) and my vMA score on PTS (420,000) and that would suggest that their goals are indeed being met since I can still complete the content and still get a decent score. I've have been in the new Trial and in just a few days, the bosses are getting killed with Templars healing. This is going to be a *really* tough sell.

All that being said, I do have a concern that I very much would like to hear ZoS's answer. Because I have seen nothing in the Patch Notes, any developer comment, or anywhere that allays my concerns:

It is clear as day to me and everyone else whose main was a Templar from Launch that what made the class distinctive from the others is gone.

• Puncturing Strikes stunned targets and healed for more. Now no more stun (instead just a snare) and it heals for much less.
• Biting Jabs stunned targets and acted as quasi execute. Now it just snares and gives a generic buff available elsewhere.
• Focused Charge was fast, responsive, and managed to hit opponents without the need for unpurgable auto-snare. Now it’s slow, bugs out, and places a snare on my opponents even if they are using a specific ability that makes them immune.
• Spear Shards stunned an opponent, had a longer relative range to other skills before Battle Spirit, and gave me the conscious ability to provide stamina to my allies. Now it doesn’t stun, I do not have a choice what resource it restores, and every other class can replicate this once unique ability via the Undaunted Skill line. Also, this used to tick twice as fast and thus twice as many Burning Light procs
• Blazing Shield was once a functional defense shield for all templars as it was based off health, an attribute the game’s mechanics used to encourage us to invest in. Now it’s a suboptimal choice for all templars excepting niche builds that stack max health.
• The Balanced Warrior passive used to benefit all templar’s damage. Now it only does so for “stamplars”
• Eclipse use to always reflect just about everything in the game for 7.2 seconds and had no targeting restrictions. Now only one morph only reflects projectiles and it only lasts for 3.5 seconds.
• I use to have a skill called Blinding Flashes that gave melee opponents a unique miss chance debuff. It’s now gone.
• The Restoring Spirit passive used to restore magicka when casting a Dawn’s Wrath ability. Now it’s just a generic small cost reduction (that is subject to diminishing returns).
• The Remembrance ultimate morph used to provide my allies with damage reduction. Now it doesn’t.
• Breath of Life once had an additional heal and no targeting restrictions.
• Restoring Aura once provided allies (and the templar) a bonus to their stam recovery not available anywhere else in the game. Now it debuffs six enemies with a generic debuff that restores magicka to my allies if they attack specific target.
• Repentance once restored health and stamina to the templar and her allies from corpses. Right now it is the last of the mechanics in ESO that once reward successful smaller sized groups overcome disorganized masses. On the PTS, this is gone as it’s just a situational AoE heal and only the templar gains stamina.
• Cleansing ritual used to cleanse debuffs and incoming projectiles. Now, no more projectiles and it’s more expensive.
• Focused Healing passive once gave me a unique 30% healing buff to allies standing in my protective circles. Now this is called Mending and gives a 12% buff if I am standing in my protective circles. If I combine it with the new Sacred Ground Passive, I can get an additional 8%. So in total 10% less.
• Mending once passive gave me a higher chance to critically heal a low health target. This is now gone completely.

It's enough to make a Templar cry.

Now, I'm not claiming the class is nerfed because it's not. It's not so much the power that has been sucked from my class but its soul. Each and every one of those once unique powers that differentiated my class from the others has been taken away because generic, bland, and flat power has been acquired elsewhere in the form of gear, the natural "Power Creep" that accompanies progression games, and especially the Champion System. In effect ZoS has been robbing Peter to pay Paul.

All classes have had to contend with this. Dragonknights more so than us. Sorcerers to a lesser degree. Nightblades I cannot say because I did not play one at launch.

Zos can quantify power so it thinks as long as the classes are roughly equivalent that all is OK. Well ZoS, you can't quantify fun. I'm telling you right now that I do not enjoy that the uniqueness of my class has been torn asunder just to be replaced by the homogenized generic +X% boosts in its stead. What had once made it fun to play a Templar no longer exists.

Here's the thing. I know I have the Healing Ritual spell. I didn’t need to be reminded about it and I most certainly could have done without ZoS dubbing it a “faster healing spammable ability.” It is a terrible spell that is in every way inferior to Healing Springs and in no way fast. What we are going to do is spam Healing Springs just like every other class. We will still use Shards, but it now supports the group just like every other class. I suppose we could use Restoring Aura, but why bother since it provides the same debuff as Elemental Drain and thus its effect is just like every other class. We no longer can reward the success our group with a Repentance stamina refill just like every other class. And please don't tell me it's free; my group has to kill enemies and I actually have to activate the skill with a global cooldown. It is the very last game mechanic in ESO that legitimately rewards one group of players for defeating another. Yes I have Purifying Ritual but everyone has access Purge. Yes I have Breath of Life, but you don’t even need to look to the Warden for other burst heals because there is multi-directional Twilight Matriarch and Steadfast Ward. You can argue that BoL is better, and maybe it is. Who cares? The point here is not that Templars healer can’t do the job or that they are gimped or weaker than other healers. Rather what interesting, compelling, and distinctive function doesa Templar provide a group? That’s gone. Gone the way of the stun from Blazing Spear, the unique CC from Blinding Flashes, the counter-play potential of Eclipse, the viability of Sun Shield, the resource return mechanic of Restoring Spirit, the zerg-fighting potential of Repentance. The Templar body functions, but its soul is no longer there.

And for what? All to reign in that bland generic power that comes from ZoS’s buff system and especially the flat percentage boosts everyone gets from the Champion System. There is so much power beyond our class skill-lines and passives such that ZoS has been forced to strip away our classes in order to maintain some semblance of control. Why do you think every patch update since the Imperial City has been page after page of nerfs? Why do you think ZoS has gone away from its “100% commitment” that PvP and PvE would governed by the same rules? Ask anyone who plays on Azura's Star who has been hit with a siege weapon, inflicted with a resource draining poison, or fought someone with the TrollKing monster set if ESO is "a single unified game where mechanics and abilities work consistently." Remember when we wrote over 80 pages of Templar feedback on the PTS made fun of Eric Wrobel and his Templar "house"? Well, as it turns out Templar Houses were indeed mighty in spite of the nerfs. This is the conundrum the developers must strain their brain on every patch: even when they nerf us, we become relatively stronger.

That’s the problem ZoS. It’s not that Templars are weak, or useless, or over-nerfed, or can’t compete with Wardens. Rather it is clear as day to anyone who has played and cared about a Templar since launch that the essence of what once made the class distinctive and fun is dead. The soulless husks we play now still have more than adequate power to fulfill whatever role is called on them, but there is no compelling game-play reason to use them as the direction you have taken the game has eliminated unique class functions in favor of generic power boosts available to everyone. That’s a terrible change. We are all pretty much the same. It’s boring. I don’t think you ever should have allowed the Champion System to steal the power inherent in our classes. Because you will never ever convince me that some +X major bonus to stamina available to everyone is as awesome, rewarding, stimulating, or fun as the Repentance skill.

I want the soul back on my templar. And it pains me you cannot grant that because of the direction you took ESO.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Blinding Flashes was really op though...

GallantGuardian wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Blinding Flashes was really op though...

So is fear. It's not as OP as blinding flashes was, but it's still the strongest cc in the game.

I would like to clarify that I'm not asking for a nerf.

I'm just wondering what made it op ? I keep reading people say how op it was since you're a long time templar fan and obviously understand that it's just as op as fear can you explain why people think this?

As pve tank I'd love this ability to come back