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No wonder it's called TROLL king

  • Quantum_V
    Quantum_V
    Class Representative
    NBrookus wrote: »
    Only one execute starts at 50%, it's very weak in that range and a templar that starts close range beaming at 50% is a dead templar unless they can stand safely behind a zerg.

    True that, Brookus... it's a fair point to assume that 50% isn't even execute range... so we could say that trollking heals you before you're even in true trouble, before you're out of that safe zone.
    Quantum - Magicka DK

    Youtube Channel

  • DeadlyRecluse
    DeadlyRecluse
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    Arthg wrote: »
    I for one would like to see more monster sets like TK.

    TK is one of the only monster sets that's not RNG-based and that actually requires you to do something (monitoring and healing).

    Only active gameplay makes it efficient, so I'd say that if it does "carry" players, these players at least know what they're doing to some extent, and deserve the buff.

    Should the nerf hammer hit TK, I'm hoping for a weak thud rather than than a loud stomp.

    While I also like TK and don't think it should be nerfed, I don't think maintaining uptime on entropy/vigor/rally etc is partcularly active gameplay.

    Pretty much any half-decent player will have troll king up without actively trying to proc it.

    That being said, I agree that it's a very interesting set and shouldn't be nerfed further (and the 60 to 50 percent health threshold is a more significant nerf than people think).
    Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub
  • zuto40
    zuto40
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    uh learn to burst? if troll king is that big a problem its time to man up, stop running 12 julianos, and get an actual build
    Stamblade- Legate
    Tank/Heals Templar- Sergeant
    Magic DK- Corporal
    Stam DK- Sergeant
    Stamplar- Corporal

    YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy8uqORxhlrMh8oz2230s9g
  • milesrodneymcneely2_ESO
    milesrodneymcneely2_ESO
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    So, is it considered "bad form" to use this set in a duel? The build I'm working on will use either Troll King (which I already have) or Malubeth's/Selene (which I'm still farming for).

    Am I creating more cancer? :o
  • Quantum_V
    Quantum_V
    Class Representative
    zuto40 wrote: »
    uh learn to burst? if troll king is that big a problem its time to man up, stop running 12 julianos, and get an actual build


    I think the most appropiate question here would be 'uh learn how to play while having any sort of skill to heal when supposed to and be conscious of what you're doing instead of using a set that passively heals you for free without any thought process involved on it' . This argument can of course extend to any other proc sets mentioned before, in that case, just read my other posts about what I generally think about proc sets.

    In all honesty, my problem with the proc set is just allowing you to play and rely on mechanics that need no skill to that level. Trollking is a set that literally allows you to rest on it turning your mistakes in the fight negligible as it will support you even after messing up.

    Troll king doesn't literally make you immortal, I was obviously playing around when I said that supposing that my main point would be understood. On that note, my real problem with trollking is - as I said before - allowing and promoting low/no skilled gameplay and effectively get away with it. Of course when you get burst down (on some situations) troll king will fail you (again, on some situations), but in general, it's just a set that allows you to make mistakes and not get punished for it.

    Hopefully I got my point across here...
    Quantum - Magicka DK

    Youtube Channel

  • Quantum_V
    Quantum_V
    Class Representative
    So, is it considered "bad form" to use this set in a duel? The build I'm working on will use either Troll King (which I already have) or Malubeth's/Selene (which I'm still farming for).

    Am I creating more cancer? :o

    Well, in duels it's normally considered as a cheap set to use, but at that point so is Malubeths... but unless you care about people complaining that you're running with it, you don't have to care too much.
    Quantum - Magicka DK

    Youtube Channel

  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    You act like I have to repeat the same thing over and over about why

    1 it's being changed and you have absolutely zero experience with the new changes, meaning any reasoning you have to justify a nerf is moot
    2 calling for nerfs motivates other ill informed players to whine until poor decisions are made by ZoS
    3 the thread keeps popping up, making it extremely difficult to ignore
    4 offensive proc sets are just as strong or stronger
    5 these sets will always exist in PvP and asking for their removal is delusional

    Did I miss anything else to make my post meet your requirements OP?
    Gamer tag: DasPanzerKat NA Xbox One
    1300+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er

    Waffennacht' Builds
  • Biro123
    Biro123
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    Just in case people have forgotten, there's that new CP ability that reduces regen on light attacks. That affects health regent too, doesn't it? And therefore troll king. So along with minor nerf to 50% how about we just wait to see how it performs when the morrowind builds mature.?
    Edited by Biro123 on April 24, 2017 8:05PM
    Minalan owes me a beer.

    PC EU Megaserver
    Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
    Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
    Aidee - Magsorc - DC
    Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
    Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.
  • FlyLionel
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    All of that complaining and not one word about pirate skeleton being dropped down by 1%? Now that stam has a 30% increase in cost for our heals ill most likely be moving to troll king to muster up any survivability i still can.

    Agreed. Troll king on stam warden? Ooooo
    The Flyers
  • Quantum_V
    Quantum_V
    Class Representative
    You act like I have to repeat the same thing over and over about why

    1 it's being changed and you have absolutely zero experience with the new changes, meaning any reasoning you have to justify a nerf is moot
    2 calling for nerfs motivates other ill informed players to whine until poor decisions are made by ZoS
    3 the thread keeps popping up, making it extremely difficult to ignore
    4 offensive proc sets are just as strong or stronger
    5 these sets will always exist in PvP and asking for their removal is delusional

    Did I miss anything else to make my post meet your requirements OP?

    A'right, let me tell you why you have to repeat yourself: 'cause non of your points make sense. You're repeating nonsense over and over again, that's why I'm begging for you to say things again in a way that actually makes sense. Lets go:

    1. Changing troll king or not will not (and probably never will) walk in parallel directions to my point: which is making troll king (and any other proc sets) require any sort of skill to use and/or give minimal advantage to the player using it. In other words, make it somehow require some skill to use OR bring it down to the point that it's no longer able to turn the tide of a battle solemnly because of the effects it has. In fact, it should only change the tide of the battle if synced up with other tactics or moves so no more reliance can be made with troll king (applies to other procs sets). Did I make myself clear now?

    2. Calling nerfs on the forum posts gives my point of view (kinda sad I have to point this out), which brings different opinions and arguments about the topic, as you can (hopefully) see, there's arguments that are pro-nerfs and against nerfs, BOTH of which are under this thread. The 'ill informed players' will read both sides of the arguments and make up a conclusion, that's why this is a DISUCSSION thread. Both sides are being exposed here, so both arguments will be presented to the player so he can decide. (This was little obvious, idk). So I'm not motivating players to be pro-nerf, I'm promoting a space where all opinions can be shown so players can make a conclusion based on the arguments presented.

    3. If the thread keeps popping up, it's really likely it's a topic that a good amount of players agree on, which by itself means it's something ZoS has to look upon (not necessarly change anything, but look upon the topic. Not only that, there's SEVERAL other threads, so if you can't ignore the ones you're not passionate about, that's you're problem which makes no sense you bringing it up on a discussion forum where you're indignation about the topic is irrelevant.

    4. As said before, (look who's repeating themselves now) I made a topic about THIS specific proc set, but I stated it 1001 times how I agree all other proc sets should have the same overall behavoir, be it offensive or defensive proc sets. As I stated before, I'd agree on the complete removal of proc sets, but I am sure that's impossible, so I'm offering different solutions, which will hopefully cause some debate. I DO NOT DEFEND ANY PROC SETS (as said 1001 times). I wrote about Trollking 'cause it was the one I was thinking about when this thread was made.

    5. I stated before that I knew that zenimax was not gonna remove proc sets, that wasn't a proposal at all, it was just a point made so people could know my overall view on proc sets and hopefully spare me from having to point out obvious points (like I'm having to do here).


    Good players will adapt to the necessity of skill, which makes me think good players aren't gonna cry a lot against the nerfs, as even if trollking is not OP, it's still a no skill set, which good players don't need or don't rely on. You can make your conclusions based on this...
    Quantum - Magicka DK

    Youtube Channel

  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    Quantum_V wrote: »
    You act like I have to repeat the same thing over and over about why

    1 it's being changed and you have absolutely zero experience with the new changes, meaning any reasoning you have to justify a nerf is moot
    2 calling for nerfs motivates other ill informed players to whine until poor decisions are made by ZoS
    3 the thread keeps popping up, making it extremely difficult to ignore
    4 offensive proc sets are just as strong or stronger
    5 these sets will always exist in PvP and asking for their removal is delusional

    Did I miss anything else to make my post meet your requirements OP?

    A'right, let me tell you why you have to repeat yourself: 'cause non of your points make sense. You're repeating nonsense over and over again, that's why I'm begging for you to say things again in a way that actually makes sense. Lets go:

    1. Changing troll king or not will not (and probably never will) walk in parallel directions to my point: which is making troll king (and any other proc sets) require any sort of skill to use and/or give minimal advantage to the player using it. In other words, make it somehow require some skill to use OR bring it down to the point that it's no longer able to turn the tide of a battle solemnly because of the effects it has. In fact, it should only change the tide of the battle if synced up with other tactics or moves so no more reliance can be made with troll king (applies to other procs sets). Did I make myself clear now?

    2. Calling nerfs on the forum posts gives my point of view (kinda sad I have to point this out), which brings different opinions and arguments about the topic, as you can (hopefully) see, there's arguments that are pro-nerfs and against nerfs, BOTH of which are under this thread. The 'ill informed players' will read both sides of the arguments and make up a conclusion, that's why this is a DISUCSSION thread. Both sides are being exposed here, so both arguments will be presented to the player so he can decide. (This was little obvious, idk). So I'm not motivating players to be pro-nerf, I'm promoting a space where all opinions can be shown so players can make a conclusion based on the arguments presented.

    3. If the thread keeps popping up, it's really likely it's a topic that a good amount of players agree on, which by itself means it's something ZoS has to look upon (not necessarly change anything, but look upon the topic. Not only that, there's SEVERAL other threads, so if you can't ignore the ones you're not passionate about, that's you're problem which makes no sense you bringing it up on a discussion forum where you're indignation about the topic is irrelevant.

    4. As said before, (look who's repeating themselves now) I made a topic about THIS specific proc set, but I stated it 1001 times how I agree all other proc sets should have the same overall behavoir, be it offensive or defensive proc sets. As I stated before, I'd agree on the complete removal of proc sets, but I am sure that's impossible, so I'm offering different solutions, which will hopefully cause some debate. I DO NOT DEFEND ANY PROC SETS (as said 1001 times). I wrote about Trollking 'cause it was the one I was thinking about when this thread was made.

    5. I stated before that I knew that zenimax was not gonna remove proc sets, that wasn't a proposal at all, it was just a point made so people could know my overall view on proc sets and hopefully spare me from having to point out obvious points (like I'm having to do here).


    Good players will adapt to the necessity of skill, which makes me think good players aren't gonna cry a lot against the nerfs, as even if trollking is not OP, it's still a no skill set, which good players don't need or don't rely on. You can make your conclusions based on this...

    I'll make it simple.

    If you nerf proc sets to the level you state, then there is no point in using them. ZoS will not make proc sets so weak that they do not influence battle. Their whole existence is TO TURN THE TIDE. Viper, SKORIA, red mountain, kraggs All are far more offensive than troll King is defensive.

    ZoS will not nerf skoria or red mountain viper twice fang etc to the point where they make no difference.

    They WILL NOT force players to change out of monster sets for PvP and then back again for PvE

    You cannot nerf TK without nerfing everything and they will not separate PvP from PvE therefore they won't nerf everything because of PvE.

    What you are asking for is to nerf TK because players feel defensive sets are stronger because they don't aid in making a faster ttk for their build, but whine because it makes a longer ttk

    And they will never nerf all sets, so calling for nerfs results in only one set getting nerfed and the next best set gets whined about.

    Edit: darn auto correct and new phone

    Edit: I should put it this way, ZoS will not nerf proc sets to increase the required skill level a player needs to win. If anything they already stated they wish to bring the top down.
    Edited by Waffennacht on April 24, 2017 9:48PM
    Gamer tag: DasPanzerKat NA Xbox One
    1300+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er

    Waffennacht' Builds
  • Quantum_V
    Quantum_V
    Class Representative
    Quantum_V wrote: »
    You act like I have to repeat the same thing over and over about why

    1 it's being changed and you have absolutely zero experience with the new changes, meaning any reasoning you have to justify a nerf is moot
    2 calling for nerfs motivates other ill informed players to whine until poor decisions are made by ZoS
    3 the thread keeps popping up, making it extremely difficult to ignore
    4 offensive proc sets are just as strong or stronger
    5 these sets will always exist in PvP and asking for their removal is delusional

    Did I miss anything else to make my post meet your requirements OP?

    A'right, let me tell you why you have to repeat yourself: 'cause non of your points make sense. You're repeating nonsense over and over again, that's why I'm begging for you to say things again in a way that actually makes sense. Lets go:

    1. Changing troll king or not will not (and probably never will) walk in parallel directions to my point: which is making troll king (and any other proc sets) require any sort of skill to use and/or give minimal advantage to the player using it. In other words, make it somehow require some skill to use OR bring it down to the point that it's no longer able to turn the tide of a battle solemnly because of the effects it has. In fact, it should only change the tide of the battle if synced up with other tactics or moves so no more reliance can be made with troll king (applies to other procs sets). Did I make myself clear now?

    2. Calling nerfs on the forum posts gives my point of view (kinda sad I have to point this out), which brings different opinions and arguments about the topic, as you can (hopefully) see, there's arguments that are pro-nerfs and against nerfs, BOTH of which are under this thread. The 'ill informed players' will read both sides of the arguments and make up a conclusion, that's why this is a DISUCSSION thread. Both sides are being exposed here, so both arguments will be presented to the player so he can decide. (This was little obvious, idk). So I'm not motivating players to be pro-nerf, I'm promoting a space where all opinions can be shown so players can make a conclusion based on the arguments presented.

    3. If the thread keeps popping up, it's really likely it's a topic that a good amount of players agree on, which by itself means it's something ZoS has to look upon (not necessarly change anything, but look upon the topic. Not only that, there's SEVERAL other threads, so if you can't ignore the ones you're not passionate about, that's you're problem which makes no sense you bringing it up on a discussion forum where you're indignation about the topic is irrelevant.

    4. As said before, (look who's repeating themselves now) I made a topic about THIS specific proc set, but I stated it 1001 times how I agree all other proc sets should have the same overall behavoir, be it offensive or defensive proc sets. As I stated before, I'd agree on the complete removal of proc sets, but I am sure that's impossible, so I'm offering different solutions, which will hopefully cause some debate. I DO NOT DEFEND ANY PROC SETS (as said 1001 times). I wrote about Trollking 'cause it was the one I was thinking about when this thread was made.

    5. I stated before that I knew that zenimax was not gonna remove proc sets, that wasn't a proposal at all, it was just a point made so people could know my overall view on proc sets and hopefully spare me from having to point out obvious points (like I'm having to do here).


    Good players will adapt to the necessity of skill, which makes me think good players aren't gonna cry a lot against the nerfs, as even if trollking is not OP, it's still a no skill set, which good players don't need or don't rely on. You can make your conclusions based on this...

    I'll make it simple.

    If you nerf proc sets to the level you state, then there is no point in using them. ZoS will not make proc sets so weak that they do not influence battle. Their whole existence is TO TURN THE TIDE. Viper, SKORIA, red mountain, kraggs All are far more offensive than troll King is defensive.

    ZoS will not nerf skoria or red mountain viper twice fang etc to the point where they make no difference.

    They WILL NOT force players to change out of monster sets for PvP and then back again for PvE

    You cannot nerf TK without nerfing everything and they will not separate PvP from PvE therefore they won't nerf everything because of PvE.

    What you are asking for is to nerf TK because players feel defensive sets are stronger because they don't aid in making a faster ttk for their build, but whine because it makes a longer ttk

    And they will never nerf all sets, so calling for nerfs results in only one set getting nerfed and the next best set gets whined about.

    Edit: darn auto correct and new phone

    Edit: I should put it this way, ZoS will not nerf proc sets to increase the required skill level a player needs to win. If anything they already stated they wish to bring the top down.

    There we go! Now I understand where you're trying to get! I totally see your point now. Keep in mind though, I did state:
    . Changing troll king or not will not (and probably never will) walk in parallel directions to my point: which is making troll king (and any other proc sets) require any sort of skill to use and/or give minimal advantage to the player using it. In other words, make it somehow require some skill to use OR bring it down to the point that it's no longer able to turn the tide of a battle solemnly because of the effects it has.

    Basically what I mean with this is that Troll King should not turn the tide of the battle by itself, but it should AID the player (to a certain extent) to tide the turn of the battle, making troll king have to be used more strategically. A good example here is Kena's monster helm, even though you deal a lot of damage, you burn resources a lot more. That calls for a strategic use of it, you have to think before you simply spam skills while kena is procced. I suggest TK (and any other monster set) should envolve a thought process behind it before using it, that's my whole point here. I'll give a example (it's probably bad 'cause I haven't thought much about it, but lets give it a shot).

    What about if Troll king gave you all that health recovery, but reduced you're resistances by 'x%' while it was procced. You'd have to think 'Oh, Trollking just procced, which means I will be able to recover from a burst, but I'll have to avoid damage somehow due to my low resistances. What if I have to line of sight, or get a rally ready to pop as soon as TK ends so I can recover from the following damage I received while my resistances were down, or I have to make sure I have a potion ready so I can heal from the extra damage I received with troll king 'cause my resistances are low, or maybe I should spec into more resistances, run a source of major resolve, who knows?'

    Maybe I made it easier to understand... TK then would function to recover from big bursts, but won't let you do it again, you have to have a plan B so you can play against TKs drawbacks...

    That's just an example I had while thinking about TK, but it can generalize to other proc sets!

    Tell me what you think!
    Quantum - Magicka DK

    Youtube Channel

  • danno8
    danno8
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    Quantum_V wrote: »
    NBrookus wrote: »
    Only one execute starts at 50%, it's very weak in that range and a templar that starts close range beaming at 50% is a dead templar unless they can stand safely behind a zerg.

    True that, Brookus... it's a fair point to assume that 50% isn't even execute range... so we could say that trollking heals you before you're even in true trouble, before you're out of that safe zone.

    The two-handed execute also begins scaling at 50%. Everyone hates on RD so much this often gets overlooked. In fact ZoS has said they have the exact same scaling magnitudes (this was stated back during the first round of nerfs to RD like a year ago).

    In regards to Troll King, don't blocking opponents just get to 50% then let TK do all the work? I think it is against strong blocking builds that TK really shines. Probably too brightly.
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    Quantum_V wrote: »
    Quantum_V wrote: »
    You act like I have to repeat the same thing over and over about why

    1 it's being changed and you have absolutely zero experience with the new changes, meaning any reasoning you have to justify a nerf is moot
    2 calling for nerfs motivates other ill informed players to whine until poor decisions are made by ZoS
    3 the thread keeps popping up, making it extremely difficult to ignore
    4 offensive proc sets are just as strong or stronger
    5 these sets will always exist in PvP and asking for their removal is delusional

    Did I miss anything else to make my post meet your requirements OP?

    A'right, let me tell you why you have to repeat yourself: 'cause non of your points make sense. You're repeating nonsense over and over again, that's why I'm begging for you to say things again in a way that actually makes sense. Lets go:

    1. Changing troll king or not will not (and probably never will) walk in parallel directions to my point: which is making troll king (and any other proc sets) require any sort of skill to use and/or give minimal advantage to the player using it. In other words, make it somehow require some skill to use OR bring it down to the point that it's no longer able to turn the tide of a battle solemnly because of the effects it has. In fact, it should only change the tide of the battle if synced up with other tactics or moves so no more reliance can be made with troll king (applies to other procs sets). Did I make myself clear now?

    2. Calling nerfs on the forum posts gives my point of view (kinda sad I have to point this out), which brings different opinions and arguments about the topic, as you can (hopefully) see, there's arguments that are pro-nerfs and against nerfs, BOTH of which are under this thread. The 'ill informed players' will read both sides of the arguments and make up a conclusion, that's why this is a DISUCSSION thread. Both sides are being exposed here, so both arguments will be presented to the player so he can decide. (This was little obvious, idk). So I'm not motivating players to be pro-nerf, I'm promoting a space where all opinions can be shown so players can make a conclusion based on the arguments presented.

    3. If the thread keeps popping up, it's really likely it's a topic that a good amount of players agree on, which by itself means it's something ZoS has to look upon (not necessarly change anything, but look upon the topic. Not only that, there's SEVERAL other threads, so if you can't ignore the ones you're not passionate about, that's you're problem which makes no sense you bringing it up on a discussion forum where you're indignation about the topic is irrelevant.

    4. As said before, (look who's repeating themselves now) I made a topic about THIS specific proc set, but I stated it 1001 times how I agree all other proc sets should have the same overall behavoir, be it offensive or defensive proc sets. As I stated before, I'd agree on the complete removal of proc sets, but I am sure that's impossible, so I'm offering different solutions, which will hopefully cause some debate. I DO NOT DEFEND ANY PROC SETS (as said 1001 times). I wrote about Trollking 'cause it was the one I was thinking about when this thread was made.

    5. I stated before that I knew that zenimax was not gonna remove proc sets, that wasn't a proposal at all, it was just a point made so people could know my overall view on proc sets and hopefully spare me from having to point out obvious points (like I'm having to do here).


    Good players will adapt to the necessity of skill, which makes me think good players aren't gonna cry a lot against the nerfs, as even if trollking is not OP, it's still a no skill set, which good players don't need or don't rely on. You can make your conclusions based on this...

    I'll make it simple.

    If you nerf proc sets to the level you state, then there is no point in using them. ZoS will not make proc sets so weak that they do not influence battle. Their whole existence is TO TURN THE TIDE. Viper, SKORIA, red mountain, kraggs All are far more offensive than troll King is defensive.

    ZoS will not nerf skoria or red mountain viper twice fang etc to the point where they make no difference.

    They WILL NOT force players to change out of monster sets for PvP and then back again for PvE

    You cannot nerf TK without nerfing everything and they will not separate PvP from PvE therefore they won't nerf everything because of PvE.

    What you are asking for is to nerf TK because players feel defensive sets are stronger because they don't aid in making a faster ttk for their build, but whine because it makes a longer ttk

    And they will never nerf all sets, so calling for nerfs results in only one set getting nerfed and the next best set gets whined about.

    Edit: darn auto correct and new phone

    Edit: I should put it this way, ZoS will not nerf proc sets to increase the required skill level a player needs to win. If anything they already stated they wish to bring the top down.

    There we go! Now I understand where you're trying to get! I totally see your point now. Keep in mind though, I did state:
    . Changing troll king or not will not (and probably never will) walk in parallel directions to my point: which is making troll king (and any other proc sets) require any sort of skill to use and/or give minimal advantage to the player using it. In other words, make it somehow require some skill to use OR bring it down to the point that it's no longer able to turn the tide of a battle solemnly because of the effects it has.

    Basically what I mean with this is that Troll King should not turn the tide of the battle by itself, but it should AID the player (to a certain extent) to tide the turn of the battle, making troll king have to be used more strategically. A good example here is Kena's monster helm, even though you deal a lot of damage, you burn resources a lot more. That calls for a strategic use of it, you have to think before you simply spam skills while kena is procced. I suggest TK (and any other monster set) should envolve a thought process behind it before using it, that's my whole point here. I'll give a example (it's probably bad 'cause I haven't thought much about it, but lets give it a shot).

    What about if Troll king gave you all that health recovery, but reduced you're resistances by 'x%' while it was procced. You'd have to think 'Oh, Trollking just procced, which means I will be able to recover from a burst, but I'll have to avoid damage somehow due to my low resistances. What if I have to line of sight, or get a rally ready to pop as soon as TK ends so I can recover from the following damage I received while my resistances were down, or I have to make sure I have a potion ready so I can heal from the extra damage I received with troll king 'cause my resistances are low, or maybe I should spec into more resistances, run a source of major resolve, who knows?'

    Maybe I made it easier to understand... TK then would function to recover from big bursts, but won't let you do it again, you have to have a plan B so you can play against TKs drawbacks...

    That's just an example I had while thinking about TK, but it can generalize to other proc sets!

    Tell me what you think!

    What you are asking for is perfectly reasonable. It just doesn't fall in line with ZoS thinking. You're right, these types of changes would force a player to be more proactive and skillful to utilize. However these do not help new or less skilled players. ZoS wants a less skilled player have the opportunity to beat a more skilled player, this is what they mean by "bringing the top down"
    Personally I think the changes they have done are the extent to what type of changes ZoS does. Like no critical, sure it changed proc sets, but not by much
    Gamer tag: DasPanzerKat NA Xbox One
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  • Quantum_V
    Quantum_V
    Class Representative
    Quantum_V wrote: »
    Quantum_V wrote: »
    You act like I have to repeat the same thing over and over about why

    1 it's being changed and you have absolutely zero experience with the new changes, meaning any reasoning you have to justify a nerf is moot
    2 calling for nerfs motivates other ill informed players to whine until poor decisions are made by ZoS
    3 the thread keeps popping up, making it extremely difficult to ignore
    4 offensive proc sets are just as strong or stronger
    5 these sets will always exist in PvP and asking for their removal is delusional

    Did I miss anything else to make my post meet your requirements OP?

    A'right, let me tell you why you have to repeat yourself: 'cause non of your points make sense. You're repeating nonsense over and over again, that's why I'm begging for you to say things again in a way that actually makes sense. Lets go:

    1. Changing troll king or not will not (and probably never will) walk in parallel directions to my point: which is making troll king (and any other proc sets) require any sort of skill to use and/or give minimal advantage to the player using it. In other words, make it somehow require some skill to use OR bring it down to the point that it's no longer able to turn the tide of a battle solemnly because of the effects it has. In fact, it should only change the tide of the battle if synced up with other tactics or moves so no more reliance can be made with troll king (applies to other procs sets). Did I make myself clear now?

    2. Calling nerfs on the forum posts gives my point of view (kinda sad I have to point this out), which brings different opinions and arguments about the topic, as you can (hopefully) see, there's arguments that are pro-nerfs and against nerfs, BOTH of which are under this thread. The 'ill informed players' will read both sides of the arguments and make up a conclusion, that's why this is a DISUCSSION thread. Both sides are being exposed here, so both arguments will be presented to the player so he can decide. (This was little obvious, idk). So I'm not motivating players to be pro-nerf, I'm promoting a space where all opinions can be shown so players can make a conclusion based on the arguments presented.

    3. If the thread keeps popping up, it's really likely it's a topic that a good amount of players agree on, which by itself means it's something ZoS has to look upon (not necessarly change anything, but look upon the topic. Not only that, there's SEVERAL other threads, so if you can't ignore the ones you're not passionate about, that's you're problem which makes no sense you bringing it up on a discussion forum where you're indignation about the topic is irrelevant.

    4. As said before, (look who's repeating themselves now) I made a topic about THIS specific proc set, but I stated it 1001 times how I agree all other proc sets should have the same overall behavoir, be it offensive or defensive proc sets. As I stated before, I'd agree on the complete removal of proc sets, but I am sure that's impossible, so I'm offering different solutions, which will hopefully cause some debate. I DO NOT DEFEND ANY PROC SETS (as said 1001 times). I wrote about Trollking 'cause it was the one I was thinking about when this thread was made.

    5. I stated before that I knew that zenimax was not gonna remove proc sets, that wasn't a proposal at all, it was just a point made so people could know my overall view on proc sets and hopefully spare me from having to point out obvious points (like I'm having to do here).


    Good players will adapt to the necessity of skill, which makes me think good players aren't gonna cry a lot against the nerfs, as even if trollking is not OP, it's still a no skill set, which good players don't need or don't rely on. You can make your conclusions based on this...

    I'll make it simple.

    If you nerf proc sets to the level you state, then there is no point in using them. ZoS will not make proc sets so weak that they do not influence battle. Their whole existence is TO TURN THE TIDE. Viper, SKORIA, red mountain, kraggs All are far more offensive than troll King is defensive.

    ZoS will not nerf skoria or red mountain viper twice fang etc to the point where they make no difference.

    They WILL NOT force players to change out of monster sets for PvP and then back again for PvE

    You cannot nerf TK without nerfing everything and they will not separate PvP from PvE therefore they won't nerf everything because of PvE.

    What you are asking for is to nerf TK because players feel defensive sets are stronger because they don't aid in making a faster ttk for their build, but whine because it makes a longer ttk

    And they will never nerf all sets, so calling for nerfs results in only one set getting nerfed and the next best set gets whined about.

    Edit: darn auto correct and new phone

    Edit: I should put it this way, ZoS will not nerf proc sets to increase the required skill level a player needs to win. If anything they already stated they wish to bring the top down.

    There we go! Now I understand where you're trying to get! I totally see your point now. Keep in mind though, I did state:
    . Changing troll king or not will not (and probably never will) walk in parallel directions to my point: which is making troll king (and any other proc sets) require any sort of skill to use and/or give minimal advantage to the player using it. In other words, make it somehow require some skill to use OR bring it down to the point that it's no longer able to turn the tide of a battle solemnly because of the effects it has.

    Basically what I mean with this is that Troll King should not turn the tide of the battle by itself, but it should AID the player (to a certain extent) to tide the turn of the battle, making troll king have to be used more strategically. A good example here is Kena's monster helm, even though you deal a lot of damage, you burn resources a lot more. That calls for a strategic use of it, you have to think before you simply spam skills while kena is procced. I suggest TK (and any other monster set) should envolve a thought process behind it before using it, that's my whole point here. I'll give a example (it's probably bad 'cause I haven't thought much about it, but lets give it a shot).

    What about if Troll king gave you all that health recovery, but reduced you're resistances by 'x%' while it was procced. You'd have to think 'Oh, Trollking just procced, which means I will be able to recover from a burst, but I'll have to avoid damage somehow due to my low resistances. What if I have to line of sight, or get a rally ready to pop as soon as TK ends so I can recover from the following damage I received while my resistances were down, or I have to make sure I have a potion ready so I can heal from the extra damage I received with troll king 'cause my resistances are low, or maybe I should spec into more resistances, run a source of major resolve, who knows?'

    Maybe I made it easier to understand... TK then would function to recover from big bursts, but won't let you do it again, you have to have a plan B so you can play against TKs drawbacks...

    That's just an example I had while thinking about TK, but it can generalize to other proc sets!

    Tell me what you think!

    What you are asking for is perfectly reasonable. It just doesn't fall in line with ZoS thinking. You're right, these types of changes would force a player to be more proactive and skillful to utilize. However these do not help new or less skilled players. ZoS wants a less skilled player have the opportunity to beat a more skilled player, this is what they mean by "bringing the top down"
    Personally I think the changes they have done are the extent to what type of changes ZoS does. Like no critical, sure it changed proc sets, but not by much

    I totally agree with that, it doesn't fall under ZoS standards... It seems this brings up a more complex discussion: 'should less skilled plaers have the opportunity to beat a more skilled player'. That for me seems unfair, which at this point the discussion goes beyond proc sets and involves a wider topic, which is ZoS' directions in the game.

    I disagree less skilled players should beat skilled players. In my opinion, skill should always be the factor that determines the outcome of a fight. I know ZoS doesn't think that way, maybe a new thread should be made about this!

    Thanks for the contribution and sorry if we came out to create some friction between our ways of presenting our ideas, it was good you came here 'cause now we can discuss a more general topic. I'll probably make a thread about this and I'd love to hear what you've got to say about it!
    Quantum - Magicka DK

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  • Derra
    Derra
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    Anyone who think trollking gets a nerf with the next patch is in for a rude awakening when they realize it actually gets buffed due to the CP changes.

    Trollking and pirate simply have too little downtime in realtion to how potent they are.
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  • rimmidimdim
    rimmidimdim
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    Should not Nerf everything because of pvp. I love PvP, and play more of it than pve. However it is annoying how PvP unbalance screws pve. All the monster helms maybe should be removed from PvP? Just a thought. Not trying to pick a fight. Just making a point sometimes us PvP people might forget.
  • clocksstoppe
    clocksstoppe
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    So, is it considered "bad form" to use this set in a duel? The build I'm working on will use either Troll King (which I already have) or Malubeth's/Selene (which I'm still farming for).

    Am I creating more cancer? :o

    No, not at all. I use it in my duels and I can feel the opportunity cost of not having a damage set instead of it. Nobody i fought has ever complained about it. As long as you don't use tryhard potions/poisons in duels, it's fine.

    Alot of people just dismiss this downside that i highlighted above. The fact remains, not everyone builds for full damage and just because you want to win by killing people in 10 secs doesn't mean everyone else will play into your build and let it happen. Troll king is one of MANY ways to do this, and at 750hp/s it's not that much of a deal also you can't be vampire when using it.
  • cschwingeb14_ESO
    cschwingeb14_ESO
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    Troll King is ridiculous, because there is no counter to health regen. And let's face it, a smart build (not a smart player, just a copied smart build) using TK will end up over 3k regen when it procs. And self healing is guaranteed for most classes (surge, funnel, rally, ritual, the CP ability that heals you when you get crit), so let's not pretend that remembering to self heal is hard

    If we had a counter to health regen, then TK would be ok. As it stands now, it heavily carries tanky builds in BGs and no-CP, just like it did for me last night on my first spin as a Warden. I didn't even run Rally, just Warden heals and Vigor

    An option for nerfing it could be to halve the proc duration too.
  • Rickter
    Rickter
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    I dont like troll king. or any other proc set for that matter. but then again, im just a scrub at pvp. #truth
    RickterESO
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  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    Troll King is ridiculous, because there is no counter to health regen. And let's face it, a smart build (not a smart player, just a copied smart build) using TK will end up over 3k regen when it procs. And self healing is guaranteed for most classes (surge, funnel, rally, ritual, the CP ability that heals you when you get crit), so let's not pretend that remembering to self heal is hard

    If we had a counter to health regen, then TK would be ok. As it stands now, it heavily carries tanky builds in BGs and no-CP, just like it did for me last night on my first spin as a Warden. I didn't even run Rally, just Warden heals and Vigor

    An option for nerfing it could be to halve the proc duration too.

    I love how we have absolutely no way to verify nor experience anything you just said
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  • Kas
    Kas
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    IF the heavy armor nerfs really translate to less heavy armor being worn, this is by far the bigger nerf on troll king than the trigger-%

    still, I think the set seems too good, especially when run by one player in a (non vamp heavy, i.e. stamina-based) group. it's already very strong when solo, it's insane if you buff all your friends as well
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  • IrishRoyalty1124
    Aldenn wrote: »
    Troll king from 60% to 25% would be fine or it can stay to 50% but they proc chance is 50% when you cast an heal.
    Pirate skeleton from 30% less dmg to about 15% less dmg would be fine as well with 5% proc chance.

    You do need to cast a heal to proc it once below 50% health so to say it requires no skill is just not true. The two piece of troll king is, "When you heal a friendly target if they are still below 50% health their health recovery is increased by 1548 for 10 seconds" so really you need to be low enough below 50% health and cast a heal that won't push you above 50% health or it won't proc.
  • cschwingeb14_ESO
    cschwingeb14_ESO
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    There are CP nodes that that heal based on critting or bring crit, not to mention hots (rally, mutagen) as well as passive skill healing (funnel health, surge, sweeps). Getting healed at under 50% is not much of a barrier
  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
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    Quantum is just concerned because he's really OP, and if he uses Troll King too, then people might...grow suspicious. :no_mouth:
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  • leepalmer95
    leepalmer95
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    Aldenn wrote: »
    Troll king from 60% to 25% would be fine or it can stay to 50% but they proc chance is 50% when you cast an heal.
    Pirate skeleton from 30% less dmg to about 15% less dmg would be fine as well with 5% proc chance.

    You do need to cast a heal to proc it once below 50% health so to say it requires no skill is just not true. The two piece of troll king is, "When you heal a friendly target if they are still below 50% health their health recovery is increased by 1548 for 10 seconds" so really you need to be low enough below 50% health and cast a heal that won't push you above 50% health or it won't proc.

    For self use on any stam build a rally rick or vigor tick will proc it. Vigor will proc it on others.
    For templars their aoe purge/ hot will proc it.
    Rapid regen
    Any hot e.g. funnel hp on magblades.


    Its very, very easy to proc. You don't have to go out of your way to proc it, it basically auto procs.
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  • rfennell_ESO
    rfennell_ESO
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    Troll King is ridiculous, because there is no counter to health regen. And let's face it, a smart build (not a smart player, just a copied smart build) using TK will end up over 3k regen when it procs. And self healing is guaranteed for most classes (surge, funnel, rally, ritual, the CP ability that heals you when you get crit), so let's not pretend that remembering to self heal is hard

    If we had a counter to health regen, then TK would be ok. As it stands now, it heavily carries tanky builds in BGs and no-CP, just like it did for me last night on my first spin as a Warden. I didn't even run Rally, just Warden heals and Vigor

    An option for nerfing it could be to halve the proc duration too.

    Doesn't -poisoned- reduce health regen by 50%?
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    Troll King is ridiculous, because there is no counter to health regen. And let's face it, a smart build (not a smart player, just a copied smart build) using TK will end up over 3k regen when it procs. And self healing is guaranteed for most classes (surge, funnel, rally, ritual, the CP ability that heals you when you get crit), so let's not pretend that remembering to self heal is hard

    If we had a counter to health regen, then TK would be ok. As it stands now, it heavily carries tanky builds in BGs and no-CP, just like it did for me last night on my first spin as a Warden. I didn't even run Rally, just Warden heals and Vigor

    An option for nerfing it could be to halve the proc duration too.

    Doesn't -poisoned- reduce health regen by 50%?

    No, diseased lowers heals but nothing lowers health Regen afaik
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  • TheBonesXXX
    TheBonesXXX
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    Its the only set in the game that actually requires human cognition to be good with and you want to nerf it?

    That regen isn't as strong as you think when you got Proctard Nation effects going off..


  • BaByDontHurtMe
    BaByDontHurtMe
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    Quantum is just concerned because he's really OP, and if he uses Troll King too, then people might...grow suspicious. :no_mouth:

    Can confirm Quantum OP.

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