Dropped sets SHOULD be better than crafted.

Brictoria · April 2017

IronCrystal wrote: »

Brictoria wrote: »

Why not settle for the middle ground:
Allow drop sets to be better

BUT
Allow crafters to be able to adjust style (Maybe require 2 style mats instead of one for crafting new item)

AND
Allow (8/9/set dependant number) crafters to be able to change trait in similar way that tempers work - and make the result Bind on Pickup (Or add additional crafting option (with suitably high cost inc. 9 trait requirement) to make item Bind on Equip, or remove binding from themselves but Bind on Pickup activates for new owner)

This way those who want to grind for sets/items aren't forced to craft and crafters can still get items they want without being forced to run content they don't want...And with the ability to move items from "Bind on Pickup" to "Bind on Equip" even PVP players should be happy.

While I think this would be cool, there's no way ZOS would ever implement a re-trait system. It would cut the time required to grind by a lot, which is time spent playing the game.

So..Why should it be a grind?

Wouldn't you prefer to be able to run whatever you wanted for FUN, with rewards being able to be sold via guild trader, rather than repeating same area continually in the hope of one specific item/trait combo...Plus, if you put the time into crafting, you could then churn out LOTS of the item you wanted originally and profit from it.

And an added benefit would be that it would allow those who don't have time/skill/reflexes to be able to play certain content to have the chance to one day but the items they want to\hear about (Of course with cost of "unbind" and/or reset trait, this could be rather expensive\profitable).

STEVIL · April 2017

Brictoria wrote: »

Why not settle for the middle ground:
Allow drop sets to be better

BUT
Allow crafters to be able to adjust style (Maybe require 2 style mats instead of one for crafting new item)

AND
Allow (8/9/set dependant number) crafters to be able to change trait in similar way that tempers work - and make the result Bind on Pickup (Or add additional crafting option (with suitably high cost inc. 9 trait requirement) to make item Bind on Equip, or remove binding from themselves but Bind on Pickup activates for new owner)

This way those who want to grind for sets/items aren't forced to craft and crafters can still get items they want without being forced to run content they don't want...And with the ability to move items from "Bind on Pickup" to "Bind on Equip" even PVP players should be happy.

What? this is not a middle ground.
its a complete surrender.
style is the only unique thing brought right now by crafted set (comparing to mael/master wpns, jewels, monster sets and wpn/jewel sets for drops)- you give that up when you let drops style be altered.
trait and grind time is the most significant non-unique deficit for drops now, specifically for weapons and again you give that possibility to drops.

if this went thru, also change blacksmithing, clothing and woodworking into one skill line called alterations" with six passives - one for traits/looks and one for quiality for each former"craft" and get rid of actually making gear beyond consumables.

Not worth 60+sp and tons of time to just alter other folks drops in an "only BoP drops matter" world by whatever mechanism they put in.

Browiseth · April 2017

well, in an ideal world everything would be as viable as the next thing

Wrecking_Blow_Spam · April 2017

Dropped sets are better than crafted, case closed.

bebynnag · April 2017

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Keep_Door wrote: »

This should be easy for anyone to understand. I mean a crafted set you can make the perfect trait 100% of the time get all the pieces you need and not to mention in your favorite style.

Dropped sets take time, hours, weeks, hell sometimes even months to get the prefect traits.

That being said crafting shouldnt be useless. I dont think it is. Sure compared to some dropped sets crafted sets seem week but thats how it should be.

I took a year and a half leveling every crafting trait. Don't talk to me about time.

this....

also i had about 4 hours sleep total during the recent 2 week long aniversarie event - gathering shiney shiney gold boxes so my main could finally learn all the shiney shiney motifs!

Brictoria · April 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

Brictoria wrote: »

Why not settle for the middle ground:
Allow drop sets to be better

BUT
Allow crafters to be able to adjust style (Maybe require 2 style mats instead of one for crafting new item)

AND
Allow (8/9/set dependant number) crafters to be able to change trait in similar way that tempers work - and make the result Bind on Pickup (Or add additional crafting option (with suitably high cost inc. 9 trait requirement) to make item Bind on Equip, or remove binding from themselves but Bind on Pickup activates for new owner)

This way those who want to grind for sets/items aren't forced to craft and crafters can still get items they want without being forced to run content they don't want...And with the ability to move items from "Bind on Pickup" to "Bind on Equip" even PVP players should be happy.

What? this is not a middle ground.
its a complete surrender.
style is the only unique thing brought right now by crafted set (comparing to mael/master wpns, jewels, monster sets and wpn/jewel sets for drops)- you give that up when you let drops style be altered.
trait and grind time is the most significant non-unique deficit for drops now, specifically for weapons and again you give that possibility to drops.

if this went thru, also change blacksmithing, clothing and woodworking into one skill line called alterations" with six passives - one for traits/looks and one for quiality for each former"craft" and get rid of actually making gear beyond consumables.

Not worth 60+sp and tons of time to just alter other folks drops in an "only BoP drops matter" world by whatever mechanism they put in.

How is it a surrender?

You still need to know the style on the crafter, still need to have researched the trait (and potentially need to be 9-trait craft on item), and finally crafting time will have a reward where you can use it. It would also mean that finally training/prosperous items have value outside of published vendor values...

Another (very messy) alternative could involve being able to research sets in the same way as traits...But only after hitting 9-trait on the item you are researching the set for, or tuneable workstations which can be tuned from drops and need 9-trait crafting.

WhitePawPrints · April 2017

IronCrystal wrote: »

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Ok so let's list this out and maybe it will make more sense why I don't agree with OP AT ALL

To get a dropped set you need:
-Ability to clear normal dungeons (not hard)
-RNG (sucks ass but can favor you too)

To get a crafted set you need
-1,050 pieces of material for a 7-piece armor set
-56 yellow tempers (PC NA my MM was 6.5k per for Tempering Alloy)
-The correct trait material (ez pz)
-The correct amount of traits trained (Haven't mathed it out but it's over a year easy for 9 traits on everything)
- The correct motif/motifs for the slot (RNG and/or a fat wad of cash for the better ones)
- Max level enchanting (pretty easy)
- Up to 13 Yellow enchants depending on weapons

So yeah, I present the middle finger salute to those who think dropped gear should be better than crafted by default.

I understand the desire from ZoS to push people into their content in order to farm these things but they could instead have content drop high-end materials.

If all endgame sets were crafted and everything dropped materials not only would crafters be more relevant and encourage trading player to player but then guess what? It solves your RNG problem too!

And I counterpoint.

You listed gold tempers. Are you assuming dropped items come in gold? Gold tempers are needed for both.

Actually, its 970 mats for 7 gear pieces. Not to mention, these are REALLY CHEAP right now and on PC NA. The only thing is recently ancestor silk has shot up and is 50 each, costing about 45k for 7 pieces if you don't collect any on your own. If it's medium or heavy, that's about 15k for heavy and 10k for medium. This is still easier to get the money for this than to grind the RNG for gear.

Trait materials don't even need to be listed. You even said they were easy.

The correct number of traits. Ok, I admit the 9 trait ones take a while, but on PC NA there are SO MANY CRAFTERS with max traits is SO EASY TO FIND SOMEONE with max traits. It is not a rare commodity anymore to have max traits. Pretty much anyone playing this game at least a year has them. And if you are in the same guild as one, MOST OF THEM DO IT FOR FREE as long as you provide mats.

The correct motif. Are you kidding me? This is purely cosmetic and has no effect on the gear.

Max level enchanting. Again, any skill line can be maxed in just under a few hours MAXIMUM. Not a challenge.

Enchanting needs to be done on a lot of dropped items anyways, I don't understand the need to include enchanting.

Those who argue about the motifs don't understand that its not anything that changes how good the gear is, why even mention it? That is purely a cosmetic collection.

Because different styles are desired. Simple as that. A crafter who has all the styles will have more orders than a crafter without all the styles.

Of course people like to have different style armors, but this is an argument about the difficulty of obtaining crafted gear.

Motifs play no part in difficulty of obtaining crafted gear.

You can say this conversation is about whatever you perceive it to be. I disagree with the notion that dropped sets should be better than crafted sets, and the only supporting reason is because of time it takes to grind out a BiS trait on a dropped set.

Therefore the counter arguments is that, without a doubt, crafting requires a lot more time in research traits alone. Researching traits is not just pushing a couple buttons since a crafter needs to find a piece of gear that has that trait, in order to begin the research. A crafter has to grind out all the traits for every piece of gear. That is 272 pieces of equipment that needs to be found or bought, plus 34 pieces for the Nirn traits that requires to be purchased. We only need trash pieces but but 272 pieces, one each of a different trait, will most likely take a lot longer than it would ever take to grind multiple BiS dropped set pieces, RNG-pending. That one aspect of crafting makes it comparable to the grind of dropped sets.

There is a skill level needed to get some dropped sets, but for BiS, how many require skill? Spriggans and Spinners requires no to bare minimum skill. The pieces to this set are dropped by treasure chest (no skill required), delve bosses (no skill required), dolmens (minimal skill required, but never necessary due to excessive groups grinding them), public dungeon bosses (minimal skill required, but never necessary due to excessive groups grinding them), World Bosses (moderate skill or minimal coordination required, but never necessary due to excessive groups grinding them) and basic mobs (no skill required). Are you really to say that Crafters should not have something comparable to dropped non-DLC Overland sets?

Let's look at Viper, and all Dungeon Sets that can be obtained on normal difficulty and requires minimal skill and coordination. Monster sets obviously more difficult due to Veteran requirement, but that requires moderate skill and coordination at most. Agreed that monster sets need to remain dropped, and not have comparable crafting options.

Trials sets can always have a slight, slight advantage over crafted sets because of the requirements to complete them.

vMA and vDSA BiS weapons should remain BiS, and crafting should have no comparable sets available (obviously because they're one piece sets).

Skill level and time taken into consideration then fair assessments would be for crafted sets to be comparable at their respective level. Crafted sets compared to Spriggans or Spinners should be available at six-trait in the fifth zones of factions (where Spriggans and Spinners is found). Crafters should have comparable sets to Vipers, and non-DLC dungeons at 8-trait and possibly behind some content completion (like the Fighter's and Mage's Guild sets are). 9-trait sets should be comparable to DLC dungeon sets.

Even if they were all locked behind 9-trait, crafters would still be happy.

I have a bank full of BiS gear that I acquired from grinding dropped sets and a lot of BiS dumped into guild banks too. I am a master 9-trait crafter, proficient across all six crafting skill trees. Crafting requires a lot more time, dedication and effort than grinding any of the BiS dropped sets. I'm also an ESO+ Subscriber, for that Crafting Bag, and have bought DLC to unlock Crafting Tables. I've invested real world money as a crafter that someone grinding for dropped sets would not have needed to spend.

All that is leaving motifs out of the conversation, event though time spent in game has been brought up a couple times. I've left off the skill points required for crafters out as well, and the amount of content that is needed to acquire all of those.

Researching, one aspect of crafting, and the amount of skill and time involved in both that and acquiring BiS dropped gear is the only reason why Crafting needs at least comparable sets available.

ljb2k5_ESO · April 2017

Keep_Door wrote: »

This should be easy for anyone to understand. I mean a crafted set you can make the perfect trait 100% of the time get all the pieces you need and not to mention in your favorite style.

Dropped sets take time, hours, weeks, hell sometimes even months to get the prefect traits.

That being said crafting shouldnt be useless. I dont think it is. Sure compared to some dropped sets crafted sets seem week but thats how it should be.

The problem is that there is no "second tier" in MMO's. Once the "best" builds and BiS gear is figured out, then guilds will demand that from all players, so anything less good even by marginal degrees will be considered useless. So anything that is going to be viable at all in terms of gear and skills, must be roughly equally so once DPS and Healing meters determine which are objectively the best skill and gear templates.

Paradox · April 2017

They should be different and support different, equal, playstyles.

Venscal · April 2017

Crafted sets just need jewellery crafting

scorpiodog · April 2017

Keep_Door wrote: »

This should be easy for anyone to understand. I mean a crafted set you can make the perfect trait 100% of the time get all the pieces you need and not to mention in your favorite style.

Dropped sets take time, hours, weeks, hell sometimes even months to get the prefect traits.

That being said crafting shouldnt be useless. I dont think it is. Sure compared to some dropped sets crafted sets seem week but thats how it should be.

The very fact that you have to go to so much trouble is what makes some sets worthless to me. No way I'm going to spend a month of game time just sitting in a public dungeon waiting for bosses to spawn, rushing to get in for the kill, and hoping I get that precise bow or whatever at a 1:1000 chance. No thanks.

I personally went back to hundings for my weapons and just buy a common 5-piece from vendors I'd rather have a constant 300 weapon damage 5-piece bonus on every item of damage going out than some iffy proc damage bonus that might or might not give me something when I need it. Or try to figure out why a bow isn't "weapon damage".

KingKalbo · April 2017

Crafting needs jewlery already. I'd like to see at nine traits that you would be able to change the 5piece bonus of any crafted set to the fith bonus of any other crafted set.. that would be a good bonus for all the time and effort to be a master crafter.

Zoner · April 2017

I have all traits on all items and all motifs currently available in the game (also the crown store exclusives). I put the effort in to such a huge undertaking so that I could make whatever I needed and have it look the way I wanted. It turns out I've been much more useful to others than to myself.

Getting all of the motifs and all the traits was a process that took well over a year, about ten million gold total and a great deal of patience. It'll take even more gold, time and patience if I want to keep on top of my motif collection every time a new one is introduced.

I'd like the effort to be worthwhile.

randolphbenoit · April 2017

Both drop and crafted should be the same. This hard to do as there no Jewelry making. Both take a lot of time to do and both should reward the hard work equally. Some people like to craft some like to grind. One should not be better than the other.

Taysa · April 2017

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Every other GREAT MMO

Which?

radiostar · April 2017

There will never be parity without being able to craft jewels. Start with that, Z.

Bombashaman · April 2017

Every set should be craftable (jewelry also). Every set should drop. Every set should be buyable from NPCs. Traits on weapons and apparel should be changeable on crafting stations or paying gold and/or mats to NPCs. All sets should be Bind on Pickup or Bind on Account so you can't make your friends or guildies do the work.

That said, better sets should take considerably more "work" to craft than they do now, and bought sets should be expensive.

Blud · April 2017

Why try to make ESO more like World of Warcraft? Go grind gear in a game like that. Let those of us who don't like to grind dungeons over and over play the game the way we like to.

Keep_Door · April 2017

Blud wrote: »

Why try to make ESO more like World of Warcraft? Go grind gear in a game like that. Let those of us who don't like to grind dungeons over and over play the game the way we like to.

I dont think ESO is anything like WoW other then the fact it is an MMO.

That being said WoW has been going for what like 14 + years now and still going strong what other game can say that let alone an MMO. So if some aspects of WoW make it into other games i feel that should be a good thing.

KanedaSyndrome · April 2017

MasterSpatula wrote: »

This is why the best gear should drop as single-use schematics. That way crafting and drops/rewards are both necessary for endgame.

If crafting is useless in endgame, then your crafting system sucks. But the best gear needs to be earned by your accomplishment. The compromise is obvious. Star Wars: Galaxies did it a decade ago. Why this community isn't clamoring for dropped schematics is beyond me.

I love the idea of schematics. Probably not happening, but I love the idea.

Kiralyn2000 · April 2017

Not sure how it is now, haven't played in ages, but... WoW tried at one point to do the "crafted gear close in power to dropped gear" thing by having the best crafted stuff take materials that only dropped from dungeon bosses and were BoP. So for a crafter to make Dungeon-level sword, he had to run dungeons.

These crafters would also then charge a big premium based on how many dungeon mats the item you wanted made needed.

The profit crafters defended this because it kept prices high. The "I craft because I don't do dungeons" crafters weren't thrilled that their maxed crafters couldn't make nice gear.

(there were also plenty of "OMG, idiot pugger loot-rolled on my <crafting mat> and stole it!" forum rant threads.

)

Galwylin · April 2017

So randomness should be better than dedication? I think I need more information why that should be though it does explain some things about ESO.

Ideally, they should be on level at a certain point. Dropped sets should appeal to those that hate to craft and crafted sets should appeal to those that love to craft. There's nothing that will kill your desire to take up crafting than knowing its going to get you nowhere. I may be mistaken but learning one of the final three traits (on a single item) can take around a month to research individually. And you have to do that for each piece and at most you can research three of that station. There's no limitation with dropped sets. It may not be the exact trait desired but it's usable while you look for that exact trait. With crafting, you can't craft a trait you're in the middle of researching. Plus, a lot of that research time is on traits that I think are totally pointless and useless but some set needs them done to reach the count. Can you imagine if really good crafted sets only required the useful traits? Research would take a few weeks and never bothered with again. Then I'd say yes. Dropped should definitely be better than less than a month. Still I think the game is served better if both are on even footing. Or closer to even.

Artemiisia · April 2017

Best option in my opinion it should be half and half

OutLaw_Nynx · April 2017

nimander99 wrote: »

It took over a year to learn all traits, not to mention the massive amount of time and effort in earning every motif in game.

GTHO with your drops should be better than crafted gear.

You run a dungeon. get you key, get your drop. maybe you run it a bunch of times, but you still get it in less than the 3 years its taken me to learn every trait and earn every motif.

And never mind the time crafters spend hunting materials.

Thank you!

i think anyone that thinks like that just didn't take the time to research traits

Balamoor · April 2017

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Keep_Door wrote: »

This should be easy for anyone to understand. I mean a crafted set you can make the perfect trait 100% of the time get all the pieces you need and not to mention in your favorite style.

Dropped sets take time, hours, weeks, hell sometimes even months to get the prefect traits.

That being said crafting shouldnt be useless. I dont think it is. Sure compared to some dropped sets crafted sets seem week but thats how it should be.

I took a year and a half leveling every crafting trait. Don't talk to me about time.

THIS^

Wow destroyed crafting by making it meaningless, ESO to stay a true TES game can't and I don't believe will do that.

Tabbycat · April 2017

I think it would be a good compromise if ZOS would consider placing special crafting stations inside of Trials that are only accessible after you have killed "X" boss. The crafting stations would let you craft armor sets comparable to what drops. Maybe you'd also need to collect X amount of materials dropped by the bosses in the Trial. I'm not sure if these items should be bop or not as you wouldn't want to flood the market with them. That could be an alternative to collecting tokens.

teladoy · April 2017

Crafting is useless with the exception of a few sets.

In ESO there are not better sets, there are different sets for different type of things. The problem is that they introduce sets like spinners, spriggans, necro and etc that they are better than crafted sets, that's why people is farming and not crafting.

Another thing is that crafting you can't do jewelry...

ScooberSteve · April 2017

Yeah lets make it so crafted sets are useless. 6 months wasted.

Olav_the_Stout · April 2017

Keep_Door wrote: »

This should be easy for anyone to understand. I mean a crafted set you can make the perfect trait 100% of the time get all the pieces you need and not to mention in your favorite style.

Dropped sets take time, hours, weeks, hell sometimes even months to get the prefect traits.

That being said crafting shouldnt be useless. I dont think it is. Sure compared to some dropped sets crafted sets seem week but thats how it should be.

Except that you can just as easily buy any BoE set piece with the perfect trait from a guild store.

This is how I would itemize:

Higher trait count (5 - 8) crafted sets should be more powerful than common BoE dropped sets.

Less common non-BoE dropped sets should be more powerful than all the crafting sets with the exception of the 9 trait sets.

Boss sets should be more powerful than the 9 trait sets.

I think all the sets could use some adjusting to fit this.

Galwylin · April 2017

I'm pretty sure that ZOS heard the cries of players having to farm gold for three hours to pay a crafter so instead they farm gold to pay a trader. Then ZOS screwed it all up by adding even better drop sets because they cried about paying gold to traders for the same thing they could have paid to crafters. ZOS likes drama.