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Healer Role Insight & Morrowind Update.
exeeter702
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Please try and keep this constructive and civil and thank you for reading !
Healing output across all classes has always been on par. With that simple fact being acknowledged, Templar was auto picked because it has exclusive access to a critical sustain tool for a group. That no longer being the case, the other healers are perfectly ready to fill the role as they ALWAYS have been
NB healing comes with solid dps and added crit for the trial group. A powerful group mitigation ultimate on par with nova with added damage. Refreshing path, funnel health ticks, and mutagen / RR make it fairly easy for NBs to find time for a full resto heavy every few seconds.
DK healing comes with the ability to free up major brut and major sorcery buffs on dps ability bars (assuming they were achieving this via pots). Molten shell ultimate change back in TG makes it a VERY strong group wide bubble. Major mending, despite popular belief is going to still have a solid up time for DK healers. They are refreshing igneous every 6 seconds regardless and more often than not, within that 6 second time frame, they will not be losing the shield (and thus the buff) in trails so often. Major mending buffed combat prayer is very strong. Cauterize allows for a strong SELFLESS passive short heal over time, but could still use a bit of love i think.
Sorcerers possess a strong group burst heal thanks to matriarch with the added concession of 2 bars and pet micro. However much like BoL, the burst heal is not really needed as much in a trial group. Their healing ultimate is good but sorcs generally will go for bastion passives, making barrier a contender. Also important to note that sorcerers possess the only major berserk for an ally in the game. Dark deal and overload bar utility compensates greatly for pet bar occupancy.
warden has many healing tools not all of which will be used in a single build. A lot of the skills overlap themselves or fufill different scenarios. The reality is that they will have to be active in aiming their more potent burst heal. Much like the other healing ultimates, secluded grove will be situational and not always needed in a trial. Much like templars nova and NBs veil, wardens have a major protection group mitigation ultimate sleet storm. And similar in philosophy to DKs freeing up major brutality and sorcery via igneous weapons, wardens can potentially free up tanks need to slot major ward and major resolve.
Should also be noted that major mending for the warden is going to be adjusted (gina posted on this yesterday).
And last but not least, as is always the case, having each class no matter the role, present in a trial group is still incentivized
Sorc
Minor Prophecy
DK
Minor Brutality
NB
Minor Savagery
Temp
Minor Sorcery
Ward
Minor Toughness
And also worth mentioning are the minor recovery buffs which should especially not be overlooked next patch.....
Warden - minor intellect and minor endurance via enchanted shrooms
Sorc - minor intellect to the group if they opt for the more selfless empowered ward over hardened ward.
I did not touch on templar healing as most people are already familiar with their tools. Yes having to rely on the resto staff for major mending in the same way NB and sorc healers have to is a tough pill to swallow for them, yet minor mending is exclusive to the templar unless you want to run the healers habit set. The reduction to templars stamina aid was a byproduct of the overall resource changes happening and while it is most definitely a nerf, it is not a nerf to their viability in the healing role in contrast to any of the other healers in the game.
Everything above combined with the shard / orb change is ultimately for the better for all the healers in the game. I still have my concerns about the accuracy of which resource is replenished when the synergies are used but that is a separate issue.
I am truly tired of the complaints happening in regards to the healer role and templars, and the numerous ridiculous hyperbolic threads popping up about how the warden is being built to overthrow the templar as the main healer. Its ridiculous and people need to educate themselves on what is really going on with class role design philosophy in this game.
Edited by exeeter702 on April 20, 2017 4:53PM Healing output across all classes has always been on par. With that simple fact being acknowledged, Templar was auto picked because it has exclusive access to a critical sustain tool for a group. That no longer being the case, the other healers are perfectly ready to fill the role as they ALWAYS have been
NB healing comes with solid dps and added crit for the trial group. A powerful group mitigation ultimate on par with nova with added damage. Refreshing path, funnel health ticks, and mutagen / RR make it fairly easy for NBs to find time for a full resto heavy every few seconds.
DK healing comes with the ability to free up major brut and major sorcery buffs on dps ability bars (assuming they were achieving this via pots). Molten shell ultimate change back in TG makes it a VERY strong group wide bubble. Major mending, despite popular belief is going to still have a solid up time for DK healers. They are refreshing igneous every 6 seconds regardless and more often than not, within that 6 second time frame, they will not be losing the shield (and thus the buff) in trails so often. Major mending buffed combat prayer is very strong. Cauterize allows for a strong SELFLESS passive short heal over time, but could still use a bit of love i think.
Sorcerers possess a strong group burst heal thanks to matriarch with the added concession of 2 bars and pet micro. However much like BoL, the burst heal is not really needed as much in a trial group. Their healing ultimate is good but sorcs generally will go for bastion passives, making barrier a contender. Also important to note that sorcerers possess the only major berserk for an ally in the game. Dark deal and overload bar utility compensates greatly for pet bar occupancy.
warden has many healing tools not all of which will be used in a single build. A lot of the skills overlap themselves or fufill different scenarios. The reality is that they will have to be active in aiming their more potent burst heal. Much like the other healing ultimates, secluded grove will be situational and not always needed in a trial. Much like templars nova and NBs veil, wardens have a major protection group mitigation ultimate sleet storm. And similar in philosophy to DKs freeing up major brutality and sorcery via igneous weapons, wardens can potentially free up tanks need to slot major ward and major resolve.
Should also be noted that major mending for the warden is going to be adjusted (gina posted on this yesterday).
And last but not least, as is always the case, having each class no matter the role, present in a trial group is still incentivized
Sorc
Minor Prophecy
DK
Minor Brutality
NB
Minor Savagery
Temp
Minor Sorcery
Ward
Minor Toughness
And also worth mentioning are the minor recovery buffs which should especially not be overlooked next patch.....
Warden - minor intellect and minor endurance via enchanted shrooms
Sorc - minor intellect to the group if they opt for the more selfless empowered ward over hardened ward.
I did not touch on templar healing as most people are already familiar with their tools. Yes having to rely on the resto staff for major mending in the same way NB and sorc healers have to is a tough pill to swallow for them, yet minor mending is exclusive to the templar unless you want to run the healers habit set. The reduction to templars stamina aid was a byproduct of the overall resource changes happening and while it is most definitely a nerf, it is not a nerf to their viability in the healing role in contrast to any of the other healers in the game.
Everything above combined with the shard / orb change is ultimately for the better for all the healers in the game. I still have my concerns about the accuracy of which resource is replenished when the synergies are used but that is a separate issue.
I am truly tired of the complaints happening in regards to the healer role and templars, and the numerous ridiculous hyperbolic threads popping up about how the warden is being built to overthrow the templar as the main healer. Its ridiculous and people need to educate themselves on what is really going on with class role design philosophy in this game.
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me_ming✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Templar was auto picked because it has exclusive access to a critical sustain tool for a group. That no longer being the case, the other healers are perfectly ready to fill the role as they ALWAYS have been
All other classes will fall off from Templar healers still, even the Warden. We have the best burst heal in this game. Don't get me wrong, you know I don't like the things being nerfed in the patch notes. But your NB or Sorc healer will never be a choice in vet trials. The only way a sorc can burst heal is through pets. And trial groups will never take pet build healers mainly because the pets will steal buffs from players (SPC, for example), NB and DKs have never been a contender for templars in terms of healing. DO NOT fool yourself into thinking that just because Templars were nerfed that your Sorc or NB healer will be better at healing. What ZoS did, as far as what we can see on paper is that they made every class worse at healing. Because right now, no other class will be able to help DPS and tanks sustain their resources, and with the nerf to resources, it will mean that everyone will have to learn how to manage their resources now, regardless if your healer was a templar or a sorc or a nb or a DK or even a warden.
PS Veil of Blades is far from Nova, even before everything was scaled up. I mean, sure DPS NBs used Veil of Blades every now and again, but interms of Veil of Blades being at par with Nova? It never was. Nova will affect everyone even if you're not standing within the area of Nova. It's not the case of Veil of Blades.Edited by me_ming on April 20, 2017 4:26PM"We're heroes, my boon companion, and heroes always win! Let that be a lesson to you."
-Caldwell, "The Final Assault"
"There is always a choice. But you don't get to choose what is true, you only get to choose what you will do about it..."
-Abnur Tharn, "God of Schemes"]9 -
Catches_the_Sun✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »
Templar - minor endurance, intellect and fortitude to the group via restoring aura
This is to the Group? I thought this was a slotted skill, where the buffs only go to the Templar.
Catches-the-Sun - Argonian Templar - Master Smith, Provisioner, Chemist & Tailor
Valaren Arobone - Dunmer Flamewalker - Master Woodworker, Provisioner, Assassin
Kazahad - Khajiiti Arcane Archer - Master Thief
V'orkten - Redguard Swordmaster
Finnvardr the Frenzied - Werewolf Berzerker5 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Templar was auto picked because it has exclusive access to a critical sustain tool for a group. That no longer being the case, the other healers are perfectly ready to fill the role as they ALWAYS have been
All other classes will fall off from Templar healers still, even the Warden. We have the best burst heal in this game. Don't get me wrong, you know I don't like the things being nerfed in the patch notes. But your NB or Sorc healer will never be a choice in vet trials. The only way a sorc can burst heal is through pets. And trial groups will never take pet build healers mainly because the pets will steal buffs from players (SPC, for example), NB and DKs have never been a contender for templars in terms of healing. DO NOT fool yourself into thinking that just because Templars were nerfed that your Sorc or NB healer will be better at healing. What ZoS did, as far as what we can see on paper is that they made every class worse at healing. Because right now, no other class will be able to help DPS and tanks sustain their resources, and with the nerf to resources, it will mean that everyone will have to learn how to manage their resources now, regardless if your healer was a templar or a sorc or a nb or a DK or even a warden.
For what it is worth, pets do not steal buffs from players despite popular belief to the contrary. Players have priority, and the only time a pet will "steal" the buff is if no applicable player target is within range which at that point they are not making use of the buff anyways and things like SPC have such a short duration before refresh that at the very worst you will be without the buff for 2 seconds assuming it takes you that long to run back within range from wherever you were from the group.. Powerful assault is admittedly more lengthy of a buff but the logic still applies, the time that you would need such a buff is a time where you should not be out of range to dps the boss.
Again it is not an opinion that healing output from the other 3 classes was on par with templar. That is a simple fact. The argument has always been what the templar brings in support utility to at trial group that the other classes never possessed. This is no longer the case.2 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Templar was auto picked because it has exclusive access to a critical sustain tool for a group. That no longer being the case, the other healers are perfectly ready to fill the role as they ALWAYS have been
All other classes will fall off from Templar healers still, even the Warden. We have the best burst heal in this game. Don't get me wrong, you know I don't like the things being nerfed in the patch notes. But your NB or Sorc healer will never be a choice in vet trials. The only way a sorc can burst heal is through pets. And trial groups will never take pet build healers mainly because the pets will steal buffs from players (SPC, for example), NB and DKs have never been a contender for templars in terms of healing. DO NOT fool yourself into thinking that just because Templars were nerfed that your Sorc or NB healer will be better at healing. What ZoS did, as far as what we can see on paper is that they made every class worse at healing. Because right now, no other class will be able to help DPS and tanks sustain their resources, and with the nerf to resources, it will mean that everyone will have to learn how to manage their resources now, regardless if your healer was a templar or a sorc or a nb or a DK or even a warden.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/325435/non-templar-veteran-trial-healers-memories-with-complete-list-of-non-class-support-skills#latest
Okay let's pop this myth non Templar heal don't in vet trials
Sorry but fact is sorrecer have the best burst heal in live. The templar heal is only half to an ally. Sure they die and still a few ui issues but numbers wise it wins.
Magma amour is being ingored, but assuming it was in a healer hands instead of tanks...Then what would happen in those every died situations? Just saying 2dk healers and tank with yokeda might bypass vMol mechs of group wipes.
Edited by Tasear on April 20, 2017 4:37PM1 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Catches_the_Sun wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »
Templar - minor endurance, intellect and fortitude to the group via restoring aura
This is to the Group? I thought this was a slotted skill, where the buffs only go to the Templar.
you are correct, that was my error. i will edit that.0 -
me_ming✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Again it is not an opinion that healing output from the other 3 classes was on par with templar. That is a simple fact. The argument has always been what the templar brings in support utility to at trial group that the other classes never possessed. This is no longer the case.
With all due respect, I don't think you have ever been in a trial environment, so I'm just going to assume that you've never actually been stolen a buff from a pet sorc build or died because of a pet in HM vAA (chain lighting anyone?). So I'm not going to argue with that anymore.
And you are right, the argument was always that templars bring utility better among other classes. And right now, no one can. And you are ok with that? You basically just want a healer who will just heal. That's it?! To me it's boring. Yes, I can still buff people (I think), but I never was a healer who just wanted to heal. I thought healing was more dynamic than that. Before ESO, I played LoL as a support, and that is what I want to bring in this game, a healer who DOES support roles. NOT a healer who will just heal anyone. So basically, instead of finding unique ways that your sorc can offer other form of support, you want to disable another class's just because we have class specific skills that offer support?
And again, any other class will still fall off from a Templar. You still cannot say that it's best to take a sorc healer or an NB healer to trials.
Edited by me_ming on April 20, 2017 4:42PM"We're heroes, my boon companion, and heroes always win! Let that be a lesson to you."
-Caldwell, "The Final Assault"
"There is always a choice. But you don't get to choose what is true, you only get to choose what you will do about it..."
-Abnur Tharn, "God of Schemes"]3 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Templar was auto picked because it has exclusive access to a critical sustain tool for a group. That no longer being the case, the other healers are perfectly ready to fill the role as they ALWAYS have been
PS Veil of Blades is far from Nova, even before everything was scaled up. I mean, sure DPS NBs used Veil of Blades every now and again, but interms of Veil of Blades being at par with Nova? It never was. Nova will affect everyone even if you're not standing within the area of Nova. It's not the case of Veil of Blades.
I know how nova works... it is not a parallel to veil of blades... im saying it functions in a similar way, for a different scenario. 30 percent damage reduction to the whole group with a powerful damage component. Nova debuffs the targets within it, when these two are used in conjucntion to one another for example, it makes for some very solid synergy almost crazy that different applications can have different uses and still be compatible with one another and on their own, almost like the opposite of homogenization. Stop reaching for arguments please.
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me_ming✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Templar was auto picked because it has exclusive access to a critical sustain tool for a group. That no longer being the case, the other healers are perfectly ready to fill the role as they ALWAYS have been
All other classes will fall off from Templar healers still, even the Warden. We have the best burst heal in this game. Don't get me wrong, you know I don't like the things being nerfed in the patch notes. But your NB or Sorc healer will never be a choice in vet trials. The only way a sorc can burst heal is through pets. And trial groups will never take pet build healers mainly because the pets will steal buffs from players (SPC, for example), NB and DKs have never been a contender for templars in terms of healing. DO NOT fool yourself into thinking that just because Templars were nerfed that your Sorc or NB healer will be better at healing. What ZoS did, as far as what we can see on paper is that they made every class worse at healing. Because right now, no other class will be able to help DPS and tanks sustain their resources, and with the nerf to resources, it will mean that everyone will have to learn how to manage their resources now, regardless if your healer was a templar or a sorc or a nb or a DK or even a warden.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/325435/non-templar-veteran-trial-healers-memories-with-complete-list-of-non-class-support-skills#latest
Okay let's pop this myth non Templar heal don't in vet trials
Sorry but fact is sorrecer have the best burst heal in live. The templar heal is only half to an ally. Sure they die and still a few ui issues but numbers wise it wins.
Magma amour is being ingored, but assuming it was in a healer hands instead of tanks...Then what would happen in those every died situations? Just saying 2dk healers and tank with yokeda might bypass vMol mechs of group wipes.
Again, with pets they are notorious for stealing buffs, and especially in vAA you do NOT want your pet to be running around close to other people, as they will cause chain lighting. Magma Armor is an ultimate. So unless you have it up every 2 seconds then why not?!Edited by me_ming on April 20, 2017 4:48PM"We're heroes, my boon companion, and heroes always win! Let that be a lesson to you."
-Caldwell, "The Final Assault"
"There is always a choice. But you don't get to choose what is true, you only get to choose what you will do about it..."
-Abnur Tharn, "God of Schemes"]0 -
me_ming✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Templar was auto picked because it has exclusive access to a critical sustain tool for a group. That no longer being the case, the other healers are perfectly ready to fill the role as they ALWAYS have been
PS Veil of Blades is far from Nova, even before everything was scaled up. I mean, sure DPS NBs used Veil of Blades every now and again, but interms of Veil of Blades being at par with Nova? It never was. Nova will affect everyone even if you're not standing within the area of Nova. It's not the case of Veil of Blades.
I know how nova works... it is not a parallel to veil of blades... im saying it functions in a similar way, for a different scenario. 30 percent damage reduction to the whole group with a powerful damage component. Nova debuffs the targets within it, when these two are used in conjucntion to one another for example, it makes for some very solid synergy almost crazy that different applications can have different uses and still be compatible with one another and on their own, almost like the opposite of homogenization. Stop reaching for arguments please.
I am not "reaching for arguments". I am just informing you that your statement: "A powerful group mitigation ultimate on par with nova with added damage" is incorrect. VoB is NOT at par with Nova."We're heroes, my boon companion, and heroes always win! Let that be a lesson to you."
-Caldwell, "The Final Assault"
"There is always a choice. But you don't get to choose what is true, you only get to choose what you will do about it..."
-Abnur Tharn, "God of Schemes"]3 -
FlyLionel✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Templar was auto picked because it has exclusive access to a critical sustain tool for a group. That no longer being the case, the other healers are perfectly ready to fill the role as they ALWAYS have been
PS Veil of Blades is far from Nova, even before everything was scaled up. I mean, sure DPS NBs used Veil of Blades every now and again, but interms of Veil of Blades being at par with Nova? It never was. Nova will affect everyone even if you're not standing within the area of Nova. It's not the case of Veil of Blades.
I know how nova works... it is not a parallel to veil of blades... im saying it functions in a similar way, for a different scenario. 30 percent damage reduction to the whole group with a powerful damage component. Nova debuffs the targets within it, when these two are used in conjucntion to one another for example, it makes for some very solid synergy almost crazy that different applications can have different uses and still be compatible with one another and on their own, almost like the opposite of homogenization. Stop reaching for arguments please.
I am not "reaching for arguments". I am just informing you that your statement: "A powerful group mitigation ultimate on par with nova with added damage" is incorrect. VoB is NOT at par with Nova.
It is just a way to deflect you; calling it an argument. It is simply a fact, in no way shape or form is veil anywhere close to nova if you had the option. When was the last time anyone saw veil of blades anyways? Probably before you went mages guild farming..but yes, I agree with what the OP said other than that...just why? Repentence AND shards? It hurts, we will see though.The Flyers0 -
NightbladeMechanics✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I absolutely love magicka nightblade healing.Kena
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me_ming✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Templar was auto picked because it has exclusive access to a critical sustain tool for a group. That no longer being the case, the other healers are perfectly ready to fill the role as they ALWAYS have been
PS Veil of Blades is far from Nova, even before everything was scaled up. I mean, sure DPS NBs used Veil of Blades every now and again, but interms of Veil of Blades being at par with Nova? It never was. Nova will affect everyone even if you're not standing within the area of Nova. It's not the case of Veil of Blades.
I know how nova works... it is not a parallel to veil of blades... im saying it functions in a similar way, for a different scenario. 30 percent damage reduction to the whole group with a powerful damage component. Nova debuffs the targets within it, when these two are used in conjucntion to one another for example, it makes for some very solid synergy almost crazy that different applications can have different uses and still be compatible with one another and on their own, almost like the opposite of homogenization. Stop reaching for arguments please.
I am not "reaching for arguments". I am just informing you that your statement: "A powerful group mitigation ultimate on par with nova with added damage" is incorrect. VoB is NOT at par with Nova.
It is just a way to deflect you; calling it an argument. It is simply a fact, in no way shape or form is veil anywhere close to nova if you had the option. When was the last time anyone saw veil of blades anyways? Probably before you went mages guild farming..but yes, I agree with what the OP said other than that...just why? Repentence AND shards? It hurts, we will see though.
Honestly, the last time I saw Veil of Blades in a vtrial was vSO back when it was still scaled to v14. So a year ago? Maybe?"We're heroes, my boon companion, and heroes always win! Let that be a lesson to you."
-Caldwell, "The Final Assault"
"There is always a choice. But you don't get to choose what is true, you only get to choose what you will do about it..."
-Abnur Tharn, "God of Schemes"]0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Templar was auto picked because it has exclusive access to a critical sustain tool for a group. That no longer being the case, the other healers are perfectly ready to fill the role as they ALWAYS have been
PS Veil of Blades is far from Nova, even before everything was scaled up. I mean, sure DPS NBs used Veil of Blades every now and again, but interms of Veil of Blades being at par with Nova? It never was. Nova will affect everyone even if you're not standing within the area of Nova. It's not the case of Veil of Blades.
I know how nova works... it is not a parallel to veil of blades... im saying it functions in a similar way, for a different scenario. 30 percent damage reduction to the whole group with a powerful damage component. Nova debuffs the targets within it, when these two are used in conjucntion to one another for example, it makes for some very solid synergy almost crazy that different applications can have different uses and still be compatible with one another and on their own, almost like the opposite of homogenization. Stop reaching for arguments please.
I am not "reaching for arguments". I am just informing you that your statement: "A powerful group mitigation ultimate on par with nova with added damage" is incorrect. VoB is NOT at par with Nova.
It is just a way to deflect you; calling it an argument. It is simply a fact, in no way shape or form is veil anywhere close to nova if you had the option. When was the last time anyone saw veil of blades anyways? Probably before you went mages guild farming..but yes, I agree with what the OP said other than that...just why? Repentence AND shards? It hurts, we will see though.
Nova will reduce outgoing damage to a wider range of players in a trial, veil does not have that reach, what it is however is a group wide major protection buff and group wide heal. It is absolutely a comparable ultimate to nova and an invaluable tool in all of our vet trials. If raid wide damage is going out you want to be within healing springs range anyways, this is why veil is a powerful tool as it complements the very scenario, just like nova, where the group is going to want to be stacked more closely. To you FlyLione, ming has showed more often than not a bad attitude to this subject and is showing restraint right now, i no longer have any interest in having a dialogue with him. The reaching argument was made because i felt this person has done that many times over that last day on these forums. I believe very strongly in my stance and since beta have advocated for a broader reach in role / class diversity in this game. The changes happening, while some more questionable than others are going in that direction and i made this post to try and shed some light as to how the healing role WILL work come morrowind.2 -
mvffins✭✭✭Templars could outheal sorcs and other classes on the premise that they have an easier time activating major mending than the others by simply standing in one of their aoe buff areas. 3.0 is reducing this to minor mending for templars which could either make them even stronger or weaker healers. Why might it make them stronger healers? Because minor mending is an even rarer buff to activate, and can stack with major mending, so essentially we could now see even stronger templar healers with sacred ground + essence drain.2
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exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Templars could outheal sorcs and other classes on the premise that they have an easier time activating major mending than the others by simply standing in one of their aoe buff areas. 3.0 is reducing this to minor mending for templars which could either make them even stronger or weaker healers. Why might it make them stronger healers? Because minor mending is an even rarer buff to activate, and can stack with major mending, so essentially we could now see even stronger templar healers with sacred ground + essence drain.
depending on the night blade healer setup, they can achieve 6-9 percent additional healing done via a single passive to compensate. Just something to consider.1 -
me_ming✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Templar was auto picked because it has exclusive access to a critical sustain tool for a group. That no longer being the case, the other healers are perfectly ready to fill the role as they ALWAYS have been
PS Veil of Blades is far from Nova, even before everything was scaled up. I mean, sure DPS NBs used Veil of Blades every now and again, but interms of Veil of Blades being at par with Nova? It never was. Nova will affect everyone even if you're not standing within the area of Nova. It's not the case of Veil of Blades.
I know how nova works... it is not a parallel to veil of blades... im saying it functions in a similar way, for a different scenario. 30 percent damage reduction to the whole group with a powerful damage component. Nova debuffs the targets within it, when these two are used in conjucntion to one another for example, it makes for some very solid synergy almost crazy that different applications can have different uses and still be compatible with one another and on their own, almost like the opposite of homogenization. Stop reaching for arguments please.
I am not "reaching for arguments". I am just informing you that your statement: "A powerful group mitigation ultimate on par with nova with added damage" is incorrect. VoB is NOT at par with Nova.
It is just a way to deflect you; calling it an argument. It is simply a fact, in no way shape or form is veil anywhere close to nova if you had the option. When was the last time anyone saw veil of blades anyways? Probably before you went mages guild farming..but yes, I agree with what the OP said other than that...just why? Repentence AND shards? It hurts, we will see though.
Nova will reduce outgoing damage to a wider range of players in a trial, veil does not have that reach, what it is however is a group wide major protection buff and group wide heal. It is absolutely a comparable ultimate to nova and an invaluable tool in all of our vet trials. If raid wide damage is going out you want to be within healing springs range anyways, this is why veil is a powerful tool as it complements the very scenario, just like nova, where the group is going to want to be stacked more closely. To you FlyLione, ming has showed more often than not a bad attitude to this subject and is showing restraint right now, i no longer have any interest in having a dialogue with him. The reaching argument was made because i felt this person has done that many times over that last day on these forums. I believe very strongly in my stance and since beta have advocated for a broader reach in role / class diversity in this game. The changes happening, while some more questionable than others are going in that direction and i made this post to try and shed some light as to how the healing role WILL work come morrowind.
Lol. just lol I'd also say this if I know I'm wrong. BTW I'm not a "him".Edited by me_ming on April 20, 2017 5:23PM"We're heroes, my boon companion, and heroes always win! Let that be a lesson to you."
-Caldwell, "The Final Assault"
"There is always a choice. But you don't get to choose what is true, you only get to choose what you will do about it..."
-Abnur Tharn, "God of Schemes"]0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
That doesnt matter.exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Templar was auto picked because it has exclusive access to a critical sustain tool for a group. That no longer being the case, the other healers are perfectly ready to fill the role as they ALWAYS have been
PS Veil of Blades is far from Nova, even before everything was scaled up. I mean, sure DPS NBs used Veil of Blades every now and again, but interms of Veil of Blades being at par with Nova? It never was. Nova will affect everyone even if you're not standing within the area of Nova. It's not the case of Veil of Blades.
I know how nova works... it is not a parallel to veil of blades... im saying it functions in a similar way, for a different scenario. 30 percent damage reduction to the whole group with a powerful damage component. Nova debuffs the targets within it, when these two are used in conjucntion to one another for example, it makes for some very solid synergy almost crazy that different applications can have different uses and still be compatible with one another and on their own, almost like the opposite of homogenization. Stop reaching for arguments please.
I am not "reaching for arguments". I am just informing you that your statement: "A powerful group mitigation ultimate on par with nova with added damage" is incorrect. VoB is NOT at par with Nova.
It is just a way to deflect you; calling it an argument. It is simply a fact, in no way shape or form is veil anywhere close to nova if you had the option. When was the last time anyone saw veil of blades anyways? Probably before you went mages guild farming..but yes, I agree with what the OP said other than that...just why? Repentence AND shards? It hurts, we will see though.
Nova will reduce outgoing damage to a wider range of players in a trial, veil does not have that reach, what it is however is a group wide major protection buff and group wide heal. It is absolutely a comparable ultimate to nova and an invaluable tool in all of our vet trials. If raid wide damage is going out you want to be within healing springs range anyways, this is why veil is a powerful tool as it complements the very scenario, just like nova, where the group is going to want to be stacked more closely. To you FlyLione, ming has showed more often than not a bad attitude to this subject and is showing restraint right now, i no longer have any interest in having a dialogue with him. The reaching argument was made because i felt this person has done that many times over that last day on these forums. I believe very strongly in my stance and since beta have advocated for a broader reach in role / class diversity in this game. The changes happening, while some more questionable than others are going in that direction and i made this post to try and shed some light as to how the healing role WILL work come morrowind.
BTW I'm not a "him".
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TheNuminous1✭✭✭✭✭
✭What I can get over is why people are still saying templars have the best burst heal.
Bol just heals in front of you. And heals less for the other person.
And fungal growth heals in front of you and heals 6 people for the same amount.
And warden have the vines move to port right to an ally and burst heal them.
So wardens have two burst heals that are better then templars now.
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Hrolfkel✭✭Well done vMOL with my NB Healer, had no problems was pulling 68% of the healing done. As for nova vs veil they have the same area. Now with undaunted it's orb doing they same as shards. My nb healer is on par if not better then a templar. Given my funnel health tick for as much sometimes more then what BoL doses.2 -
NeillMcAttack✭✭✭✭✭
✭Excellent post. Players need to understand that it's better this way, especially in trial settings. Diversity brings a greater level of depth. No longer shall we need to tell noobs that if you want to be the best healer you can be that you should prob roll Templar. When balances like this, in what was likely the most obvious imbalance with regards roles it means ZOS can start adding more things that help make classes even more diverse and unique due to having achieved that balance.
And OP, let those that disagree argue the points, not semantics.PC EU - NoCP PvP, is real PvPTiidehunter Nord StamDK EP PvP MainLegion Commander Tresdin Stamplar DC PvE MainSephirith Altmer MagPlar EP Gondar the Bounty Hunter Khajiit StamBlade DCThe Dirge Redguard StamNecro EP Disruptor Stormcrafter Nord StamSorc ADLone Druid Bosmer Stam Warden EP Necro-Phos Argonian MagBlade AD@ McAttack in gamePlayed since beta, and then on console at release, until the game became unplayable on console.0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yeah even in practice on live having cleared vmol on both a main nb amd main dk healer. As i realized in the beta, the healer role is in a good place. Unfortunately it doesnt matter.. the trend is already set and unless you have a core group of educated players in the know, there is little hope the majority of players will acknowledge non templar healers as viable despite the objective mathematical facts on the contrary.0 -
Hrolfkel✭✭Since repentance no longer effects the group is templar healer even viable. Their heals are half that of a Sorc and a third of a NB. Seems those that have played templar healers just don't want to lose their trial slots to better healers.0
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I would still suggest Templars have an edge for several reasons.
Only class with access to two cleanses. In the first vHoF boss fight it nice being able to grab a synergy to cleans oneself instead of relying on purge with isn't reliable.
Luminous shards still provides more to tanks which use both resources. A big plus since orbs only restore the primary stat.
The second healed can be any class however the Warden edges the group out again with the ability to increase regen, max health and reduce incoming damage.
Sorcs can help with group regen and have access to bigger oh sht heals similar to the Templar, however that heal isn't reliable since the source can be killed.2 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »I would still suggest Templars have an edge for several reasons.
Only class with access to two cleanses. In the first vHoF boss fight it nice being able to grab a synergy to cleans oneself instead of relying on purge with isn't reliable.
Luminous shards still provides more to tanks which use both resources. A big plus since orbs only restore the primary stat.
The second healed can be any class however the Warden edges the group out again with the ability to increase regen, max health and reduce incoming damage.
Sorcs can help with group regen and have access to bigger oh sht heals similar to the Templar, however that heal isn't reliable since the source can be killed.
We have used purge on our nb healer foe that fight regularly. Its important to note that purge is on demand and instant whereas ritual takes a synergy and applies a synergy cd per ritual cast.
Luminous does put templars in a slightly better spot for the secondary resource restore for sure and imo is the only objective numerical advantage they have.
Wardens Enchanted growth regen is nice but often the buff is already up via pots. Outside of that the potential target benefit is small as sorcs are giving intellect and stam nbs will have endurence up 100 percent of the time. Dk and warden tanks will always have endurence up as well. Minor endurence is generally only usefull to a stam sorc that isnt running weapon damage pots.0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Since repentance no longer effects the group is templar healer even viable. Their heals are half that of a Sorc and a third of a NB. Seems those that have played templar healers just don't want to lose their trial slots to better healers.
You shouldnt really put templars beneath other healers. They are capable healers. Saying they are half of the heals of nb or sorc is a bit exaggerated, def. not true. The issue is there is an entirely innacurate stigma that most players have in that non templars are "snowflake" healers when the raw facts of the matter is now in morrowind that is simply not the case.
You have 2 camps of players in that pool, those that acknowledge non templar healers but do not accept that they are as well equipped or viable in the role vs templar. And the far more insufferable group, those that think templar are the only intended actual main healer by design and nothing will chamge their mind on the matter unless the top leader board spot is a non templar healer duo in a vet trial group.
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »I would still suggest Templars have an edge for several reasons.
Only class with access to two cleanses. In the first vHoF boss fight it nice being able to grab a synergy to cleans oneself instead of relying on purge with isn't reliable.
Luminous shards still provides more to tanks which use both resources. A big plus since orbs only restore the primary stat.
The second healed can be any class however the Warden edges the group out again with the ability to increase regen, max health and reduce incoming damage.
Sorcs can help with group regen and have access to bigger oh sht heals similar to the Templar, however that heal isn't reliable since the source can be killed.
We have used purge on our nb healer foe that fight regularly. Its important to note that purge is on demand and instant whereas ritual takes a synergy and applies a synergy cd per ritual cast.
Luminous does put templars in a slightly better spot for the secondary resource restore for sure and imo is the only objective numerical advantage they have.
Wardens Enchanted growth regen is nice but often the buff is already up via pots. Outside of that the potential target benefit is small as sorcs are giving intellect and stam nbs will have endurence up 100 percent of the time. Dk and warden tanks will always have endurence up as well. Minor endurence is generally only usefull to a stam sorc that isnt running weapon damage pots.
I am very well aware purge can be used on that fight. It's also not a smart cleans.
It will cleans 6 targets regardless of having something to cleans or not. Use it twice and it will most likely cleans the same 6 players who are already clean.
Purge doesn't even guarantee the caster gets cleansed. It why I think having both cleans available is good or.
Pots provide major intellect where Enchanted Growth provides minor intellect and minor endurance. They stack so it's a benefit that only the Sorc and Warden bring to the table.
Additionally, lets not forget adding 10% health to the group is pretty sweet.
I'm not suggesting other classes cannot heal trials. I've used non Templars as a second healer since v12 was the level cap and after the trials were scaled to CP160. I'm sulky aware they have worked well as a second healer and in an even better position now, just pointing out two classes have a slight advantage.
I don't think anything is wrong with that.2 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »I would still suggest Templars have an edge for several reasons.
Only class with access to two cleanses. In the first vHoF boss fight it nice being able to grab a synergy to cleans oneself instead of relying on purge with isn't reliable.
Luminous shards still provides more to tanks which use both resources. A big plus since orbs only restore the primary stat.
The second healed can be any class however the Warden edges the group out again with the ability to increase regen, max health and reduce incoming damage.
Sorcs can help with group regen and have access to bigger oh sht heals similar to the Templar, however that heal isn't reliable since the source can be killed.
We have used purge on our nb healer foe that fight regularly. Its important to note that purge is on demand and instant whereas ritual takes a synergy and applies a synergy cd per ritual cast.
Luminous does put templars in a slightly better spot for the secondary resource restore for sure and imo is the only objective numerical advantage they have.
Wardens Enchanted growth regen is nice but often the buff is already up via pots. Outside of that the potential target benefit is small as sorcs are giving intellect and stam nbs will have endurence up 100 percent of the time. Dk and warden tanks will always have endurence up as well. Minor endurence is generally only usefull to a stam sorc that isnt running weapon damage pots.
I am very well aware purge can be used on that fight. It's also not a smart cleans.
It will cleans 6 targets regardless of having something to cleans or not. Use it twice and it will most likely cleans the same 6 players who are already clean.
Purge doesn't even guarantee the caster gets cleansed. It why I think having both cleans available is good or.
Pots provide major intellect where Enchanted Growth provides minor intellect and minor endurance. They stack so it's a benefit that only the Sorc and Warden bring to the table.
Additionally, lets not forget adding 10% health to the group is pretty sweet.
I'm not suggesting other classes cannot heal trials. I've used non Templars as a second healer since v12 was the level cap and after the trials were scaled to CP160. I'm sulky aware they have worked well as a second healer and in an even better position now, just pointing out two classes have a slight advantage.
I don't think anything is wrong with that.
Yeah for sure.0 -
Sunah✭✭✭Ok guys as a trials healer who has a Templar and warden geared out let me give my input. After reading through this section there are many things I agree with but also strongly disagree with.
First off ANY class CAN heal. Yes. Its true. However... in a TRIALS environment without a burst heal such as BoL or Fungal whatever the hell its called on Wardens (which I believe is much better because it heals 6 allies instead of 1 1/2) you are will have a very hard time. I say this only because no one is perfect, there will be some points in every encounter where someone is bound to get hit by something that a healing springs or Mutagen or whatever cannot heal quick enough.
Regards to whoever is the better healer? **Again we are talking trials environment** When I compare between Templar/Warden (because its honestly between these 2) I believe Templars still win (sadly) mainly because when it comes to burst healing BoL its enough to cover for the "oh crap" moments. I say this because not everyone in the raid "should" be getting hit by avoidable crap, IF it does happen this is now not an issue for a healer... Its a raid group issue. We can only heal so much stupid.
Also shards is a much and I mean MUCH better ability for group sustain. I say this because targeting is MUCH easier, also the fly time is about 14541591 times faster than the old blue balls that I have to use on my Warden. Also if a tank needs it, the blue balls have to travel SLOWLY through the whole raid and hopefully someone in the group doesn't get the old twitching fingers and pops it or else we gotta toss a few more while still praying no one pops it. Doing this kills our magicka and delays us from doing other things like keeping drain up or heals on other people..... TL:DR Shards > Blue Balls.
Another thing with Templars is the ability to dispel very very very very very easily. Helps quite a bit.
Nova > Sleet storm. Because nova reduces damage done by the enemies in the radius while storm reduces damage taken for all players in the radius. Sleet does absolutely NOTHING for healers and range dps unless everyone is stacked.exeeter702 wrote: »
No educated healers would ever use bol as a sticking point for end game pve healing.
Sorry to say this man, but back to my first point... Unless you have a extremely solid ass group that can avoid everything than BoL or that Warden fungal heal isn't needed. SADLY this will never happen. I don't care about how good you "claim" your guild is. *** is going to happen and burst healing WILL be needed. You can only achieve this through a Warden or Templar, Maybeeee a sorc but meh.
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