They Broke Pet Sorcs?

Emphatic_Static · April 2017

mewcatus wrote: »

Feels like an annoying bug. Attacks a world boss for a while, then the boss would for no reason attack me even though I did not taunt him.

Yeah, I feel like it may be a bug and not intended, but "I've been lied to before..."

Ok, ZOS, here is your chance, Bug? or Nerf?

Thanks...

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GaryA @ZOS_TristanK

Izaki · April 2017

What do you mean pets shouldn't be an option in trials? Its a half of a skill line, and half of the passives in that skill line that we can't use then?
When you can use a pet, you use it cause the Scamp is the highest damaging ability in the game at the moment. It is totally overpowered, yes, and I would totally like to see a reduction in the radius of the Pulse and the damage itself reduced by around 10-15%.

Pets should be a viable playstyle for trials too.

Emphatic_Static · April 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

What do you mean pets shouldn't be an option in trials? Its a half of a skill line, and half of the passives in that skill line that we can't use then?
When you can use a pet, you use it cause the Scamp is the highest damaging ability in the game at the moment. It is totally overpowered, yes, and I would totally like to see a reduction in the radius of the Pulse and the damage itself reduced by around 10-15%.

Pets should be a viable playstyle for trials too.

I don't disagree with this. Pets SHOULD be viable in a trial environment. The problem is, there are so many factors that suggest the group would be better off without them, that they are not - for most groups and their typical compositions at least. Sad, but true. The familiar makes everything CC immune constantly which is a pain for dragonknight tanks in a trial environment, and will probably lead to deaths in the group. They do steal buffs, that is a fact. They are not eligible for all of the group buffs, but for example in a clutch situation your healer pops a barrier, do you want that barrier to go off on your pet or on you? Because the pet is eligible for bubbles. Not good.

BUT, once again, this is off subject. The question is - the taunting ability of the familiar - is this intended to be a pet that can maintain agro if you take the time to learn how to properly care for its well being as a pet owner or not? Is the change implemented this week intended or is this a bug that they are unaware of? These are the questions worth asking, and the discussions worth having.

zaria · April 2017

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I don't care if its a pug or a nerf, as a tank I love it. There is already enough places were tanks aren't necessary and I want them to be. I want tanks to be a core part of any team regardless of content. And as a raid and dungeon leader I will like this a lot. I HATE when pets take aggro and hold aggro of things and kept mobs far away that I didn't even notice them and then having said mob kill the pet and then come in late. This being in both dungeons, trials and vDSA.

In all honesty more and more so even though the pet deals a considerable amount of damage we see also a lot of fights where we as raid leaders have to put our foot down and say "no you are not running that cause you are causing things to become CC immune with it", ruining tanks ability to chain things in and move stuff around. This is especially so in Veteran Maws first two bosses. If we can't Chain in the adds and cats people will die, and those little scamps can ruin peoples day if they are not handled properly. And since most DPS's go into tunnel vision during trial bosses cause "OMG MY PARSE" They never check were their pet actually is and what it is attacking.

But again, main point, I would rather they not tank stuff so we can actually get a use for proper tanks. I mean look at the bugs that were used in vWGT when it came out where people by passed all mechanics just cause the pets could hold aggro on the boss. I would rather not see anything like that again.

Good to see a main tanks perspective. I agree that in trials, as I stated above, pets shouldn't even be an option, for several reasons. I would, however, point out that if sorc pets are off in a corner attacking a monster, holding agro on it, then that sorcerer doesn't know how to use their pet right. I would say 90% of pet sorcs have no idea how to command their pets lol. Sad but true. ZOS slips in a "pet command" button, but never - anywhere in the game - do they explain how to use it. Pathetic. But regardless, I agree with you, pets shouldn't have a place in a trial environment.

Is the pet command a PC only thing?

I've tried many combos on Xbox but the little fella does what he wants. Please enlighten me if I can command him elsewhere. Ty

Yes, I believe console does not have access to the pet command feature - correct me if I am wrong - but I believe that is the case. That is really messed up, but don't worry, its so poorly implemented that you aren't missing much.

No command on console yet, in an future update heavy attack will direct pet. No its not perfect as it will be an agro issue.

zaria · April 2017

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

What do you mean pets shouldn't be an option in trials? Its a half of a skill line, and half of the passives in that skill line that we can't use then?
When you can use a pet, you use it cause the Scamp is the highest damaging ability in the game at the moment. It is totally overpowered, yes, and I would totally like to see a reduction in the radius of the Pulse and the damage itself reduced by around 10-15%.

Pets should be a viable playstyle for trials too.

I don't disagree with this. Pets SHOULD be viable in a trial environment. The problem is, there are so many factors that suggest the group would be better off without them, that they are not - for most groups and their typical compositions at least. Sad, but true. The familiar makes everything CC immune constantly which is a pain for dragonknight tanks in a trial environment, and will probably lead to deaths in the group.

BUT, once again, this is off subject. The question is - the taunting ability of the familiar - is this intended to be a pet that can maintain agro if you take the time to learn how to properly care for its well being as a pet owner or not? Is the change implemented this week intended or is this a bug that they are unaware of? These are the questions worth asking, and the discussions worth having.

As I understand, pet will not hold agro if other then the summoner do damage on target.
This was in an patch note.
This is in part to keep them from stealing agro from tank, but also probably an nerf to avoid tankless run, will prboably be more relevant with wardens bear.

And for trials one other major issue is that it will die in one shot mechanisms as it will stay in stupid.

Emphatic_Static · April 2017

zaria wrote: »

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

What do you mean pets shouldn't be an option in trials? Its a half of a skill line, and half of the passives in that skill line that we can't use then?
When you can use a pet, you use it cause the Scamp is the highest damaging ability in the game at the moment. It is totally overpowered, yes, and I would totally like to see a reduction in the radius of the Pulse and the damage itself reduced by around 10-15%.

Pets should be a viable playstyle for trials too.

I don't disagree with this. Pets SHOULD be viable in a trial environment. The problem is, there are so many factors that suggest the group would be better off without them, that they are not - for most groups and their typical compositions at least. Sad, but true. The familiar makes everything CC immune constantly which is a pain for dragonknight tanks in a trial environment, and will probably lead to deaths in the group.

BUT, once again, this is off subject. The question is - the taunting ability of the familiar - is this intended to be a pet that can maintain agro if you take the time to learn how to properly care for its well being as a pet owner or not? Is the change implemented this week intended or is this a bug that they are unaware of? These are the questions worth asking, and the discussions worth having.

As I understand, pet will not hold agro if other then the summoner do damage on target.
This was in an patch note.
This is in part to keep them from stealing agro from tank, but also probably an nerf to avoid tankless run, will prboably be more relevant with wardens bear.

And for trials one other major issue is that it will die in one shot mechanisms as it will stay in stupid.

The pet now doesn't hold agro in solo applications as well, so I believe that theory is incorrect in the current state of pets. Not saying what they are or are not trying to implement for pet mechanics, just saying what is happening right now is not what you have described.

ViciousBunnii · April 2017

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

I would say 90% of pet sorcs have no idea how to command their pets lol. Sad but true. ZOS slips in a "pet command" button, but never - anywhere in the game - do they explain how to use it. Pathetic.

I actually just saw this yesterday in my controls! Was not set up, was not tipped off about it in tutorial or the pet info. Would of been nice to know about it. BUT, I set it up last night,...and used it, but nothing happened? It's like it didn't affect the familiar at all? Does it not work right? Or maybe I am doing it wrong. I did face at an enemy when I pressed it, maybe I should of faced the crosshair at my familiar instead? Which wouldn't be that great because then he would probably grab aggro of the one I don't want him to.

Emphatic_Static · April 2017

kissesandbunnies wrote: »

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

I would say 90% of pet sorcs have no idea how to command their pets lol. Sad but true. ZOS slips in a "pet command" button, but never - anywhere in the game - do they explain how to use it. Pathetic.

I actually just saw this yesterday in my controls! Was not set up, was not tipped off about it in tutorial or the pet info. Would of been nice to know about it. BUT, I set it up last night,...and used it, but nothing happened? It's like it didn't affect the familiar at all? Does it not work right? Or maybe I am doing it wrong. I did face at an enemy when I pressed it, maybe I should of faced the crosshair at my familiar instead? Which wouldn't be that great because then he would probably grab aggro of the one I don't want him to.

Hold pet control button - press left click to send, right click to return (passive). You used to have to have the pet have the initial light attack to gain agro and hold it - but now it will lose agro regardless (at least in the familiars case)

Izaki · April 2017

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

What do you mean pets shouldn't be an option in trials? Its a half of a skill line, and half of the passives in that skill line that we can't use then?
When you can use a pet, you use it cause the Scamp is the highest damaging ability in the game at the moment. It is totally overpowered, yes, and I would totally like to see a reduction in the radius of the Pulse and the damage itself reduced by around 10-15%.

Pets should be a viable playstyle for trials too.

I don't disagree with this. Pets SHOULD be viable in a trial environment. The problem is, there are so many factors that suggest the group would be better off without them, that they are not - for most groups and their typical compositions at least. Sad, but true. The familiar makes everything CC immune constantly which is a pain for dragonknight tanks in a trial environment, and will probably lead to deaths in the group. They do steal buffs, that is a fact. They are not eligible for all of the group buffs, but for example in a clutch situation your healer pops a barrier, do you want that barrier to go off on your pet or on you? Because the pet is eligible for bubbles. Not good.

BUT, once again, this is off subject. The question is - the taunting ability of the familiar - is this intended to be a pet that can maintain agro if you take the time to learn how to properly care for its well being as a pet owner or not? Is the change implemented this week intended or is this a bug that they are unaware of? These are the questions worth asking, and the discussions worth having.

They only steal Powerful Assault. They can't be healed at full health so they don't steal SPC, which is a much more considerable buff. The only time pets CAN steal SPC is when they are health to full health (not AT full health, big difference). At that point you'll have the pet steal SPC for roughly 6 seconds. But, because there are 4 people in a trials group who don't need the buff, you might end up not hindering the group DPS at all. Even then, when they do steal the occasional buff, they are still a much higher DPS boost than any of these sets (10k DPS single target is WAY more than SPC or PA).

Pets can steal heals yes that is a fact, but heals always prioritize players. Barrier is literally never used in a trial, because a damage mit (Nova or Veil) will benefit the group much more: 30% less damage taken or a shield that doesn't even last 2 seconds?

The familiar only makes things CC immune that can be CC'd in the first place. In a trial environment, there are NO important adds that aren't CC immune (Overchargers, Flame Shapers, Sun Eaters). So that isn't a valid point.

The familiar is very much viable and very much used in trials.

I'm pretty sure that this was an intended change, due to the fact that the Clanfear still maintains agro. So Scamp = Damage, Clanfear = Tank.

IronCrystal · April 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

What do you mean pets shouldn't be an option in trials? Its a half of a skill line, and half of the passives in that skill line that we can't use then?
When you can use a pet, you use it cause the Scamp is the highest damaging ability in the game at the moment. It is totally overpowered, yes, and I would totally like to see a reduction in the radius of the Pulse and the damage itself reduced by around 10-15%.

Pets should be a viable playstyle for trials too.

I don't disagree with this. Pets SHOULD be viable in a trial environment. The problem is, there are so many factors that suggest the group would be better off without them, that they are not - for most groups and their typical compositions at least. Sad, but true. The familiar makes everything CC immune constantly which is a pain for dragonknight tanks in a trial environment, and will probably lead to deaths in the group. They do steal buffs, that is a fact. They are not eligible for all of the group buffs, but for example in a clutch situation your healer pops a barrier, do you want that barrier to go off on your pet or on you? Because the pet is eligible for bubbles. Not good.

BUT, once again, this is off subject. The question is - the taunting ability of the familiar - is this intended to be a pet that can maintain agro if you take the time to learn how to properly care for its well being as a pet owner or not? Is the change implemented this week intended or is this a bug that they are unaware of? These are the questions worth asking, and the discussions worth having.

They only steal Powerful Assault. They can't be healed at full health so they don't steal SPC, which is a much more considerable buff. The only time pets CAN steal SPC is when they are health to full health (not AT full health, big difference). At that point you'll have the pet steal SPC for roughly 6 seconds. But, because there are 4 people in a trials group who don't need the buff, you might end up not hindering the group DPS at all. Even then, when they do steal the occasional buff, they are still a much higher DPS boost than any of these sets (10k DPS single target is WAY more than SPC or PA).

Pets can steal heals yes that is a fact, but heals always prioritize players. Barrier is literally never used in a trial, because a damage mit (Nova or Veil) will benefit the group much more: 30% less damage taken or a shield that doesn't even last 2 seconds?

The familiar only makes things CC immune that can be CC'd in the first place. In a trial environment, there are NO important adds that aren't CC immune (Overchargers, Flame Shapers, Sun Eaters). So that isn't a valid point.

The familiar is very much viable and very much used in trials.

I'm pretty sure that this was an intended change, due to the fact that the Clanfear still maintains agro. So Scamp = Damage, Clanfear = Tank.

There are numerous places in vMoL where adds need to be chained, especially twins fight where you don't want the adds to be CCed

Izaki · April 2017

IronCrystal wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

What do you mean pets shouldn't be an option in trials? Its a half of a skill line, and half of the passives in that skill line that we can't use then?
When you can use a pet, you use it cause the Scamp is the highest damaging ability in the game at the moment. It is totally overpowered, yes, and I would totally like to see a reduction in the radius of the Pulse and the damage itself reduced by around 10-15%.

Pets should be a viable playstyle for trials too.

I don't disagree with this. Pets SHOULD be viable in a trial environment. The problem is, there are so many factors that suggest the group would be better off without them, that they are not - for most groups and their typical compositions at least. Sad, but true. The familiar makes everything CC immune constantly which is a pain for dragonknight tanks in a trial environment, and will probably lead to deaths in the group. They do steal buffs, that is a fact. They are not eligible for all of the group buffs, but for example in a clutch situation your healer pops a barrier, do you want that barrier to go off on your pet or on you? Because the pet is eligible for bubbles. Not good.

BUT, once again, this is off subject. The question is - the taunting ability of the familiar - is this intended to be a pet that can maintain agro if you take the time to learn how to properly care for its well being as a pet owner or not? Is the change implemented this week intended or is this a bug that they are unaware of? These are the questions worth asking, and the discussions worth having.

They only steal Powerful Assault. They can't be healed at full health so they don't steal SPC, which is a much more considerable buff. The only time pets CAN steal SPC is when they are health to full health (not AT full health, big difference). At that point you'll have the pet steal SPC for roughly 6 seconds. But, because there are 4 people in a trials group who don't need the buff, you might end up not hindering the group DPS at all. Even then, when they do steal the occasional buff, they are still a much higher DPS boost than any of these sets (10k DPS single target is WAY more than SPC or PA).

Pets can steal heals yes that is a fact, but heals always prioritize players. Barrier is literally never used in a trial, because a damage mit (Nova or Veil) will benefit the group much more: 30% less damage taken or a shield that doesn't even last 2 seconds?

The familiar only makes things CC immune that can be CC'd in the first place. In a trial environment, there are NO important adds that aren't CC immune (Overchargers, Flame Shapers, Sun Eaters). So that isn't a valid point.

The familiar is very much viable and very much used in trials.

I'm pretty sure that this was an intended change, due to the fact that the Clanfear still maintains agro. So Scamp = Damage, Clanfear = Tank.

There are numerous places in vMoL where adds need to be chained, especially twins fight where you don't want the adds to be CCed

Pretty sure that for that exact reason no one uses pets on that fight ^.^

IronCrystal · April 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

What do you mean pets shouldn't be an option in trials? Its a half of a skill line, and half of the passives in that skill line that we can't use then?
When you can use a pet, you use it cause the Scamp is the highest damaging ability in the game at the moment. It is totally overpowered, yes, and I would totally like to see a reduction in the radius of the Pulse and the damage itself reduced by around 10-15%.

Pets should be a viable playstyle for trials too.

I don't disagree with this. Pets SHOULD be viable in a trial environment. The problem is, there are so many factors that suggest the group would be better off without them, that they are not - for most groups and their typical compositions at least. Sad, but true. The familiar makes everything CC immune constantly which is a pain for dragonknight tanks in a trial environment, and will probably lead to deaths in the group. They do steal buffs, that is a fact. They are not eligible for all of the group buffs, but for example in a clutch situation your healer pops a barrier, do you want that barrier to go off on your pet or on you? Because the pet is eligible for bubbles. Not good.

BUT, once again, this is off subject. The question is - the taunting ability of the familiar - is this intended to be a pet that can maintain agro if you take the time to learn how to properly care for its well being as a pet owner or not? Is the change implemented this week intended or is this a bug that they are unaware of? These are the questions worth asking, and the discussions worth having.

They only steal Powerful Assault. They can't be healed at full health so they don't steal SPC, which is a much more considerable buff. The only time pets CAN steal SPC is when they are health to full health (not AT full health, big difference). At that point you'll have the pet steal SPC for roughly 6 seconds. But, because there are 4 people in a trials group who don't need the buff, you might end up not hindering the group DPS at all. Even then, when they do steal the occasional buff, they are still a much higher DPS boost than any of these sets (10k DPS single target is WAY more than SPC or PA).

Pets can steal heals yes that is a fact, but heals always prioritize players. Barrier is literally never used in a trial, because a damage mit (Nova or Veil) will benefit the group much more: 30% less damage taken or a shield that doesn't even last 2 seconds?

The familiar only makes things CC immune that can be CC'd in the first place. In a trial environment, there are NO important adds that aren't CC immune (Overchargers, Flame Shapers, Sun Eaters). So that isn't a valid point.

The familiar is very much viable and very much used in trials.

I'm pretty sure that this was an intended change, due to the fact that the Clanfear still maintains agro. So Scamp = Damage, Clanfear = Tank.

There are numerous places in vMoL where adds need to be chained, especially twins fight where you don't want the adds to be CCed

Pretty sure that for that exact reason no one uses pets on that fight ^.^

While I agree they pull highest dps, the fights I can think of that you DEFINITELY DON"T want to have pets are the following:

Topside Boss in vHRC
Warrior in vHRC
Foundation Atro in vAA (I think it attracks rocks for splash damage)
Mage in vAA
Twins in vMoL

They are kinda meh in the first boss fight of vmol. They don't cause too much trouble but will have to get resurrected during pillar phase.

I'd like to make a list but this is all I can think of right now.

Izaki · April 2017

IronCrystal wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

What do you mean pets shouldn't be an option in trials? Its a half of a skill line, and half of the passives in that skill line that we can't use then?
When you can use a pet, you use it cause the Scamp is the highest damaging ability in the game at the moment. It is totally overpowered, yes, and I would totally like to see a reduction in the radius of the Pulse and the damage itself reduced by around 10-15%.

Pets should be a viable playstyle for trials too.

I don't disagree with this. Pets SHOULD be viable in a trial environment. The problem is, there are so many factors that suggest the group would be better off without them, that they are not - for most groups and their typical compositions at least. Sad, but true. The familiar makes everything CC immune constantly which is a pain for dragonknight tanks in a trial environment, and will probably lead to deaths in the group. They do steal buffs, that is a fact. They are not eligible for all of the group buffs, but for example in a clutch situation your healer pops a barrier, do you want that barrier to go off on your pet or on you? Because the pet is eligible for bubbles. Not good.

BUT, once again, this is off subject. The question is - the taunting ability of the familiar - is this intended to be a pet that can maintain agro if you take the time to learn how to properly care for its well being as a pet owner or not? Is the change implemented this week intended or is this a bug that they are unaware of? These are the questions worth asking, and the discussions worth having.

They only steal Powerful Assault. They can't be healed at full health so they don't steal SPC, which is a much more considerable buff. The only time pets CAN steal SPC is when they are health to full health (not AT full health, big difference). At that point you'll have the pet steal SPC for roughly 6 seconds. But, because there are 4 people in a trials group who don't need the buff, you might end up not hindering the group DPS at all. Even then, when they do steal the occasional buff, they are still a much higher DPS boost than any of these sets (10k DPS single target is WAY more than SPC or PA).

Pets can steal heals yes that is a fact, but heals always prioritize players. Barrier is literally never used in a trial, because a damage mit (Nova or Veil) will benefit the group much more: 30% less damage taken or a shield that doesn't even last 2 seconds?

The familiar only makes things CC immune that can be CC'd in the first place. In a trial environment, there are NO important adds that aren't CC immune (Overchargers, Flame Shapers, Sun Eaters). So that isn't a valid point.

The familiar is very much viable and very much used in trials.

I'm pretty sure that this was an intended change, due to the fact that the Clanfear still maintains agro. So Scamp = Damage, Clanfear = Tank.

There are numerous places in vMoL where adds need to be chained, especially twins fight where you don't want the adds to be CCed

Pretty sure that for that exact reason no one uses pets on that fight ^.^

While I agree they pull highest dps, the fights I can think of that you DEFINITELY DON"T want to have pets are the following:

Warrior in vHRC
Mage in vAA
Twins in vMoL

They are kinda meh in the first boss fight of vmol. They don't cause too much trouble but will have to get resurrected during pillar phase.

I'd like to make a list but this is all I can think of right now.

This is in fact the list of all the fights where you can't use pets.

Warrior: Starfall (they might steal heals, unless you can unsummon your pet before Starfall stars, then they are fine for the rest of the fight)
Mage: Chain Lightning
Twins: Everything

Yeah, spending 1.5 seconds resurrecting them and another global on activating the Scamp pulse after each Pillar phase, still doesn't outweigh the DPS that the pets do... So they are impractical there, but totally worth it.

Juhasow · April 2017

Tbh situation where DD can do normal DPS rotation while beeing also tank is atleast wierd. Yes some people can feel that this broke their builds but lets be honest it was possible to solo veteran Cradle of Shadows and many other veteran dungeons. It's not like group DPS will go down incredibly because as DD with tanking pet You wasnt providing much support to the group when actual tank builds can do this and increase group DPS by a lot.

Oh btw i reccomend You to check clanfear morph. If i good remeber clannfear tail sweep is a taunt or was atleast.

paulsimonps · April 2017

IronCrystal wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

What do you mean pets shouldn't be an option in trials? Its a half of a skill line, and half of the passives in that skill line that we can't use then?
When you can use a pet, you use it cause the Scamp is the highest damaging ability in the game at the moment. It is totally overpowered, yes, and I would totally like to see a reduction in the radius of the Pulse and the damage itself reduced by around 10-15%.

Pets should be a viable playstyle for trials too.

I don't disagree with this. Pets SHOULD be viable in a trial environment. The problem is, there are so many factors that suggest the group would be better off without them, that they are not - for most groups and their typical compositions at least. Sad, but true. The familiar makes everything CC immune constantly which is a pain for dragonknight tanks in a trial environment, and will probably lead to deaths in the group. They do steal buffs, that is a fact. They are not eligible for all of the group buffs, but for example in a clutch situation your healer pops a barrier, do you want that barrier to go off on your pet or on you? Because the pet is eligible for bubbles. Not good.

BUT, once again, this is off subject. The question is - the taunting ability of the familiar - is this intended to be a pet that can maintain agro if you take the time to learn how to properly care for its well being as a pet owner or not? Is the change implemented this week intended or is this a bug that they are unaware of? These are the questions worth asking, and the discussions worth having.

They only steal Powerful Assault. They can't be healed at full health so they don't steal SPC, which is a much more considerable buff. The only time pets CAN steal SPC is when they are health to full health (not AT full health, big difference). At that point you'll have the pet steal SPC for roughly 6 seconds. But, because there are 4 people in a trials group who don't need the buff, you might end up not hindering the group DPS at all. Even then, when they do steal the occasional buff, they are still a much higher DPS boost than any of these sets (10k DPS single target is WAY more than SPC or PA).

Pets can steal heals yes that is a fact, but heals always prioritize players. Barrier is literally never used in a trial, because a damage mit (Nova or Veil) will benefit the group much more: 30% less damage taken or a shield that doesn't even last 2 seconds?

The familiar only makes things CC immune that can be CC'd in the first place. In a trial environment, there are NO important adds that aren't CC immune (Overchargers, Flame Shapers, Sun Eaters). So that isn't a valid point.

The familiar is very much viable and very much used in trials.

I'm pretty sure that this was an intended change, due to the fact that the Clanfear still maintains agro. So Scamp = Damage, Clanfear = Tank.

There are numerous places in vMoL where adds need to be chained, especially twins fight where you don't want the adds to be CCed

Pretty sure that for that exact reason no one uses pets on that fight ^.^

While I agree they pull highest dps, the fights I can think of that you DEFINITELY DON"T want to have pets are the following:

Topside Boss in vHRC
Warrior in vHRC
Foundation Atro in vAA (I think it attracks rocks for splash damage)
Mage in vAA
Twins in vMoL

They are kinda meh in the first boss fight of vmol. They don't cause too much trouble but will have to get resurrected during pillar phase.

I'd like to make a list but this is all I can think of right now.

Had some "training" runs in vMoL and on first boss I don't allow them to have scamp on either cause they make the Cats CC immune and then the DPS's and healers die cause they didn't kill the cats cause well..... its called a training run for a reason

So I prefer not to have it there.

Izaki · April 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

What do you mean pets shouldn't be an option in trials? Its a half of a skill line, and half of the passives in that skill line that we can't use then?
When you can use a pet, you use it cause the Scamp is the highest damaging ability in the game at the moment. It is totally overpowered, yes, and I would totally like to see a reduction in the radius of the Pulse and the damage itself reduced by around 10-15%.

Pets should be a viable playstyle for trials too.

I don't disagree with this. Pets SHOULD be viable in a trial environment. The problem is, there are so many factors that suggest the group would be better off without them, that they are not - for most groups and their typical compositions at least. Sad, but true. The familiar makes everything CC immune constantly which is a pain for dragonknight tanks in a trial environment, and will probably lead to deaths in the group. They do steal buffs, that is a fact. They are not eligible for all of the group buffs, but for example in a clutch situation your healer pops a barrier, do you want that barrier to go off on your pet or on you? Because the pet is eligible for bubbles. Not good.

BUT, once again, this is off subject. The question is - the taunting ability of the familiar - is this intended to be a pet that can maintain agro if you take the time to learn how to properly care for its well being as a pet owner or not? Is the change implemented this week intended or is this a bug that they are unaware of? These are the questions worth asking, and the discussions worth having.

They only steal Powerful Assault. They can't be healed at full health so they don't steal SPC, which is a much more considerable buff. The only time pets CAN steal SPC is when they are health to full health (not AT full health, big difference). At that point you'll have the pet steal SPC for roughly 6 seconds. But, because there are 4 people in a trials group who don't need the buff, you might end up not hindering the group DPS at all. Even then, when they do steal the occasional buff, they are still a much higher DPS boost than any of these sets (10k DPS single target is WAY more than SPC or PA).

Pets can steal heals yes that is a fact, but heals always prioritize players. Barrier is literally never used in a trial, because a damage mit (Nova or Veil) will benefit the group much more: 30% less damage taken or a shield that doesn't even last 2 seconds?

The familiar only makes things CC immune that can be CC'd in the first place. In a trial environment, there are NO important adds that aren't CC immune (Overchargers, Flame Shapers, Sun Eaters). So that isn't a valid point.

The familiar is very much viable and very much used in trials.

I'm pretty sure that this was an intended change, due to the fact that the Clanfear still maintains agro. So Scamp = Damage, Clanfear = Tank.

There are numerous places in vMoL where adds need to be chained, especially twins fight where you don't want the adds to be CCed

Pretty sure that for that exact reason no one uses pets on that fight ^.^

While I agree they pull highest dps, the fights I can think of that you DEFINITELY DON"T want to have pets are the following:

Topside Boss in vHRC
Warrior in vHRC
Foundation Atro in vAA (I think it attracks rocks for splash damage)
Mage in vAA
Twins in vMoL

They are kinda meh in the first boss fight of vmol. They don't cause too much trouble but will have to get resurrected during pillar phase.

I'd like to make a list but this is all I can think of right now.

Had some "training" runs in vMoL and on first boss I don't allow them to have scamp on either cause they make the Cats CC immune and then the DPS's and healers die cause they didn't kill the cats cause well..... its called a training run for a reason So I prefer not to have it there.

But why is that a problem? Pets should be on the boss therefore, the cats should be CC'd only when they are within 6meters of the boss, which is most definitely not a problem.

The topside boss and the foundation atro are totally fine with pets, I've used them there each time on console (without any targeting) and they've never been an issue in the slightest.

paulsimonps · April 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

What do you mean pets shouldn't be an option in trials? Its a half of a skill line, and half of the passives in that skill line that we can't use then?
When you can use a pet, you use it cause the Scamp is the highest damaging ability in the game at the moment. It is totally overpowered, yes, and I would totally like to see a reduction in the radius of the Pulse and the damage itself reduced by around 10-15%.

Pets should be a viable playstyle for trials too.

I don't disagree with this. Pets SHOULD be viable in a trial environment. The problem is, there are so many factors that suggest the group would be better off without them, that they are not - for most groups and their typical compositions at least. Sad, but true. The familiar makes everything CC immune constantly which is a pain for dragonknight tanks in a trial environment, and will probably lead to deaths in the group. They do steal buffs, that is a fact. They are not eligible for all of the group buffs, but for example in a clutch situation your healer pops a barrier, do you want that barrier to go off on your pet or on you? Because the pet is eligible for bubbles. Not good.

BUT, once again, this is off subject. The question is - the taunting ability of the familiar - is this intended to be a pet that can maintain agro if you take the time to learn how to properly care for its well being as a pet owner or not? Is the change implemented this week intended or is this a bug that they are unaware of? These are the questions worth asking, and the discussions worth having.

They only steal Powerful Assault. They can't be healed at full health so they don't steal SPC, which is a much more considerable buff. The only time pets CAN steal SPC is when they are health to full health (not AT full health, big difference). At that point you'll have the pet steal SPC for roughly 6 seconds. But, because there are 4 people in a trials group who don't need the buff, you might end up not hindering the group DPS at all. Even then, when they do steal the occasional buff, they are still a much higher DPS boost than any of these sets (10k DPS single target is WAY more than SPC or PA).

Pets can steal heals yes that is a fact, but heals always prioritize players. Barrier is literally never used in a trial, because a damage mit (Nova or Veil) will benefit the group much more: 30% less damage taken or a shield that doesn't even last 2 seconds?

The familiar only makes things CC immune that can be CC'd in the first place. In a trial environment, there are NO important adds that aren't CC immune (Overchargers, Flame Shapers, Sun Eaters). So that isn't a valid point.

The familiar is very much viable and very much used in trials.

I'm pretty sure that this was an intended change, due to the fact that the Clanfear still maintains agro. So Scamp = Damage, Clanfear = Tank.

There are numerous places in vMoL where adds need to be chained, especially twins fight where you don't want the adds to be CCed

Pretty sure that for that exact reason no one uses pets on that fight ^.^

While I agree they pull highest dps, the fights I can think of that you DEFINITELY DON"T want to have pets are the following:

Topside Boss in vHRC
Warrior in vHRC
Foundation Atro in vAA (I think it attracks rocks for splash damage)
Mage in vAA
Twins in vMoL

They are kinda meh in the first boss fight of vmol. They don't cause too much trouble but will have to get resurrected during pillar phase.

I'd like to make a list but this is all I can think of right now.

Had some "training" runs in vMoL and on first boss I don't allow them to have scamp on either cause they make the Cats CC immune and then the DPS's and healers die cause they didn't kill the cats cause well..... its called a training run for a reason So I prefer not to have it there.

But why is that a problem? Pets should be on the boss therefore, the cats should be CC'd only when they are within 6meters of the boss, which is most definitely not a problem.

The topside boss and the foundation atro are totally fine with pets, I've used them there each time on console (without any targeting) and they've never been an issue in the slightest.

You assume that people know what they are doing

If they died or the pet died and then summon it sometimes it doesn't go back onto the boss and it causes problems. Like I told you, it was a training run, not everyone knows what they are doing. And as OP said himself ~90% of all sorcs don't know how to use the pets properly.

Tasear · April 2017

This is a Nerf.

Tanks not doing his job if pets got aggro. This is simply misguided perception.

I hope the didn't break the real tanking pet clannfer.

Tasear · April 2017

This is a Nerf.

Summoners should be able to use pets to hold aggro. It simply logical even lore wise. This what summons should do.

zaria · April 2017

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

What do you mean pets shouldn't be an option in trials? Its a half of a skill line, and half of the passives in that skill line that we can't use then?
When you can use a pet, you use it cause the Scamp is the highest damaging ability in the game at the moment. It is totally overpowered, yes, and I would totally like to see a reduction in the radius of the Pulse and the damage itself reduced by around 10-15%.

Pets should be a viable playstyle for trials too.

I don't disagree with this. Pets SHOULD be viable in a trial environment. The problem is, there are so many factors that suggest the group would be better off without them, that they are not - for most groups and their typical compositions at least. Sad, but true. The familiar makes everything CC immune constantly which is a pain for dragonknight tanks in a trial environment, and will probably lead to deaths in the group.

BUT, once again, this is off subject. The question is - the taunting ability of the familiar - is this intended to be a pet that can maintain agro if you take the time to learn how to properly care for its well being as a pet owner or not? Is the change implemented this week intended or is this a bug that they are unaware of? These are the questions worth asking, and the discussions worth having.

As I understand, pet will not hold agro if other then the summoner do damage on target.
This was in an patch note.
This is in part to keep them from stealing agro from tank, but also probably an nerf to avoid tankless run, will prboably be more relevant with wardens bear.

And for trials one other major issue is that it will die in one shot mechanisms as it will stay in stupid.

The pet now doesn't hold agro in solo applications as well, so I believe that theory is incorrect in the current state of pets. Not saying what they are or are not trying to implement for pet mechanics, just saying what is happening right now is not what you have described.

I might be wrong here, but I found that the scamp has issues holding agro even before this,
he hold agro if he is the first to attack simply as he is melee and stand between you and enemy.

Clanfear hold agro well, but he will not hold it if other than you hit boss.
Latest is too stop it stealing agro from tank since it has an low level taunt, and to avoid groups using it as tank.

ADarklore · April 2017

This is a Nerf.

From what I've seen, they've nerfed Familiar from drawing aggro because of how powerful his attacks are... in comparison, the Clannfear does little damage but is meant to be your TANK and thus is designed to draw aggro.

Shad0wfire99 · April 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

What do you mean pets shouldn't be an option in trials? Its a half of a skill line, and half of the passives in that skill line that we can't use then?
When you can use a pet, you use it cause the Scamp is the highest damaging ability in the game at the moment. It is totally overpowered, yes, and I would totally like to see a reduction in the radius of the Pulse and the damage itself reduced by around 10-15%.

Pets should be a viable playstyle for trials too.

I don't disagree with this. Pets SHOULD be viable in a trial environment. The problem is, there are so many factors that suggest the group would be better off without them, that they are not - for most groups and their typical compositions at least. Sad, but true. The familiar makes everything CC immune constantly which is a pain for dragonknight tanks in a trial environment, and will probably lead to deaths in the group. They do steal buffs, that is a fact. They are not eligible for all of the group buffs, but for example in a clutch situation your healer pops a barrier, do you want that barrier to go off on your pet or on you? Because the pet is eligible for bubbles. Not good.

BUT, once again, this is off subject. The question is - the taunting ability of the familiar - is this intended to be a pet that can maintain agro if you take the time to learn how to properly care for its well being as a pet owner or not? Is the change implemented this week intended or is this a bug that they are unaware of? These are the questions worth asking, and the discussions worth having.

They only steal Powerful Assault. They can't be healed at full health so they don't steal SPC, which is a much more considerable buff. The only time pets CAN steal SPC is when they are health to full health (not AT full health, big difference). At that point you'll have the pet steal SPC for roughly 6 seconds. But, because there are 4 people in a trials group who don't need the buff, you might end up not hindering the group DPS at all. Even then, when they do steal the occasional buff, they are still a much higher DPS boost than any of these sets (10k DPS single target is WAY more than SPC or PA).

Pets can steal heals yes that is a fact, but heals always prioritize players. Barrier is literally never used in a trial, because a damage mit (Nova or Veil) will benefit the group much more: 30% less damage taken or a shield that doesn't even last 2 seconds?

The familiar only makes things CC immune that can be CC'd in the first place. In a trial environment, there are NO important adds that aren't CC immune (Overchargers, Flame Shapers, Sun Eaters). So that isn't a valid point.

The familiar is very much viable and very much used in trials.

I'm pretty sure that this was an intended change, due to the fact that the Clanfear still maintains agro. So Scamp = Damage, Clanfear = Tank.

There are numerous places in vMoL where adds need to be chained, especially twins fight where you don't want the adds to be CCed

Pretty sure that for that exact reason no one uses pets on that fight ^.^

I use pets in that fight. Pets are perfectly fine in almost all situations as long as the player using them has any raid awareness whatsoever.

Emphatic_Static · April 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

From what I've seen, they've nerfed Familiar from drawing aggro because of how powerful his attacks are... in comparison, the Clannfear does little damage but is meant to be your TANK and thus is designed to draw aggro.

I agree, I think this was intentional. Of course, we will never get an honest answer out of the devs. Because reasons.

SirDopey · April 2017

This is a Bug.

Didn't pets lose aggro with homestead? There's plenty of forum posts highlighting this long before last weeks fix

Emphatic_Static · April 2017

SirDopey wrote: »

Didn't pets lose aggro with homestead? There's plenty of forum posts highlighting this long before last weeks fix

With homestead came the first changes to the way pets obtained and held agro. Before homestead, it was possible for pets to randomly just take the agro, provided someone didn't have an active taunt. To my knowledge even the pulse from the familiar acted as a taunt, and aoe taunt even. After homestead, the only way to obtain agro with pets was to send them in using the pet command button, which people generally don't know how to use... and let them get the first light attack. Then and only then could they hold agro. Now this has changed, and agro can't be held at all - at least by the familiar.

That's what this discussion is all about - is this intended, or did they fix a bug and the pet mechanics went all wonky. I mean, not the first time ZOS tries to fix something and then breaks it way more than it was with the existing bug. Won't be the last either.

Emphatic_Static · April 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

From what I've seen, they've nerfed Familiar from drawing aggro because of how powerful his attacks are... in comparison, the Clannfear does little damage but is meant to be your TANK and thus is designed to draw aggro.

"From what i've seen" implies they have made claims that they were going to do this, which they did not. More like "In my opinion" :-)

ViciousBunnii · April 2017

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

kissesandbunnies wrote: »

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

I would say 90% of pet sorcs have no idea how to command their pets lol. Sad but true. ZOS slips in a "pet command" button, but never - anywhere in the game - do they explain how to use it. Pathetic.

I actually just saw this yesterday in my controls! Was not set up, was not tipped off about it in tutorial or the pet info. Would of been nice to know about it. BUT, I set it up last night,...and used it, but nothing happened? It's like it didn't affect the familiar at all? Does it not work right? Or maybe I am doing it wrong. I did face at an enemy when I pressed it, maybe I should of faced the crosshair at my familiar instead? Which wouldn't be that great because then he would probably grab aggro of the one I don't want him to.

Hold pet control button - press left click to send, right click to return (passive). You used to have to have the pet have the initial light attack to gain agro and hold it - but now it will lose agro regardless (at least in the familiars case)

Thank you! I will be messing with this today. How did you learn this without the game telling you?

Yolokin_Swagonborn · April 2017

Great Video. I am glad someone is attempting to hold ZOS accountable for undocumented changes - be they intentional or not.

I should have added this to the "what things make you want to log off" thread. Stealth changes, undocumented changes or ninja nerfs are very morale crushing for the gaming community. Even if they are completely accidental, it gives the player the queasy feeling that ZOS is pulling the rug out from under them without the courtesy of a head's up.

I don't think ZOS understands how much pride people put into their builds. When you spend hours theorycrafting and come up with something cool, only to see it changed next patch without much care or consideration, it really stings.

It is really difficult to continue to have a hardcore theorycrafting community in this game due to broken sets, some sets not dropping in all traits, some sets not doing what the tooltip says they do, and other things like this.

Builds broken by bugs or stealth changes keep people from wanting to log in. Plain and simple.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2017

This is a Bug.

paulsimonps wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

What do you mean pets shouldn't be an option in trials? Its a half of a skill line, and half of the passives in that skill line that we can't use then?
When you can use a pet, you use it cause the Scamp is the highest damaging ability in the game at the moment. It is totally overpowered, yes, and I would totally like to see a reduction in the radius of the Pulse and the damage itself reduced by around 10-15%.

Pets should be a viable playstyle for trials too.

I don't disagree with this. Pets SHOULD be viable in a trial environment. The problem is, there are so many factors that suggest the group would be better off without them, that they are not - for most groups and their typical compositions at least. Sad, but true. The familiar makes everything CC immune constantly which is a pain for dragonknight tanks in a trial environment, and will probably lead to deaths in the group. They do steal buffs, that is a fact. They are not eligible for all of the group buffs, but for example in a clutch situation your healer pops a barrier, do you want that barrier to go off on your pet or on you? Because the pet is eligible for bubbles. Not good.

BUT, once again, this is off subject. The question is - the taunting ability of the familiar - is this intended to be a pet that can maintain agro if you take the time to learn how to properly care for its well being as a pet owner or not? Is the change implemented this week intended or is this a bug that they are unaware of? These are the questions worth asking, and the discussions worth having.

They only steal Powerful Assault. They can't be healed at full health so they don't steal SPC, which is a much more considerable buff. The only time pets CAN steal SPC is when they are health to full health (not AT full health, big difference). At that point you'll have the pet steal SPC for roughly 6 seconds. But, because there are 4 people in a trials group who don't need the buff, you might end up not hindering the group DPS at all. Even then, when they do steal the occasional buff, they are still a much higher DPS boost than any of these sets (10k DPS single target is WAY more than SPC or PA).

Pets can steal heals yes that is a fact, but heals always prioritize players. Barrier is literally never used in a trial, because a damage mit (Nova or Veil) will benefit the group much more: 30% less damage taken or a shield that doesn't even last 2 seconds?

The familiar only makes things CC immune that can be CC'd in the first place. In a trial environment, there are NO important adds that aren't CC immune (Overchargers, Flame Shapers, Sun Eaters). So that isn't a valid point.

The familiar is very much viable and very much used in trials.

I'm pretty sure that this was an intended change, due to the fact that the Clanfear still maintains agro. So Scamp = Damage, Clanfear = Tank.

There are numerous places in vMoL where adds need to be chained, especially twins fight where you don't want the adds to be CCed

Pretty sure that for that exact reason no one uses pets on that fight ^.^

While I agree they pull highest dps, the fights I can think of that you DEFINITELY DON"T want to have pets are the following:

Topside Boss in vHRC
Warrior in vHRC
Foundation Atro in vAA (I think it attracks rocks for splash damage)
Mage in vAA
Twins in vMoL

They are kinda meh in the first boss fight of vmol. They don't cause too much trouble but will have to get resurrected during pillar phase.

I'd like to make a list but this is all I can think of right now.

Had some "training" runs in vMoL and on first boss I don't allow them to have scamp on either cause they make the Cats CC immune and then the DPS's and healers die cause they didn't kill the cats cause well..... its called a training run for a reason So I prefer not to have it there.

@paulsimonps

People arent using their pets correctly then. Rather than ban them, you should teach people to use them. I will usually defend sorcs from those crying nerf, but the pet is basically broken OP on the first boss. It can do 12-13K DPS for one skill which is just nuts. Sorcs should be running pets if they have them on first boss, no question.

The Problem: Pets essentially bug out every time you walk through a door, and lose their ability to be controlled. If people want to run pets, they need to get in the habit of de-summoning them before every door in MOL (there are quite a few), then recast when they get inside. Assuming the sorc in questions tab targets the boss and directs the pet at the beginning of the fight (Y+LMB), there should be zero issue on the first boss.

I think you can technically pull this off on the second boss as well, but it takes a lot more commands as you have to re-target the scamp with every color swap. On this fight, I agree that they probably arent worth it as CC immune adds can wipe a raid, but that's the only fight in VMOL that is not Pet Friendly IMO.

To the OP: Honestly, I dont think it was ever intended for the familiar to hold indefinite aggro. As you pointed out, that makes a tank essentially useless in a lot of 4-man stuff. Hard to imagine the devs wanted it that way. Now if they gave a taunt feature to the Clannfear that had to be activated every 8-10 seconds, I would be okay with that. Both pets dont need a heal morph anyway.

idk · April 2017

I seriously doubt the Volitile familiar was intended to tank. The clanfear and the storm atro used to have a taunt but they have more health and the taunt was removed prior to 2.0.

And of the pets can have agro but that doesn't mean they have a taunt. If the VM was taunting it would have been a bug.