They Broke Pet Sorcs?

Emphatic_Static

Check out my discussion on the recent change to the volatile familiar implemented this week. Is this a bug? Or is this a stealth nerf they were hoping no one would notice?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIc77Xjvggs

Valykc

I don't think it was really ever a feature of the pets to Tank, may have been an accident but I've seen people like this feature and hate it, specifically in trials. I've seen leads threaten to kick pet sorcs if they don't drop familiar because it's unintentionally drawing aggro. I see what you are saying in your discussion as the benefits it provides but it can also be a double edged sword and hurt players too causing deaths and group wipes. As a pet mag Sorc DD, I would love to have the pet hold aggro while I solo world bosses or dungeons. In trials however it shouldn't be. Maybe an implementation of it into the horribly developed "command pet" control to be able to tell your pet to hold aggro or not to. But seeing as how whenever ZOS makes one change they break 5 others I can see bad things still coming from this from their end.

Emphatic_Static

Valykc wrote: »

I don't think it was really ever a feature of the pets to Tank, may have been an accident but I've seen people like this feature and hate it, specifically in trials. I've seen leads threaten to kick pet sorcs if they don't drop familiar because it's unintentionally drawing aggro. I see what you are saying in your discussion as the benefits it provides but it can also be a double edged sword and hurt players too causing deaths and group wipes. As a pet mag Sorc DD, I would love to have the pet hold aggro while I solo world bosses or dungeons. In trials however it shouldn't be. Maybe an implementation of it into the horribly developed "command pet" control to be able to tell your pet to hold aggro or not to. But seeing as how whenever ZOS makes one change they break 5 others I can see bad things still coming from this from their end.

I fully agree for trials. In fact, I am of the mindset that pets shouldn't be used in trials at ALL. It is a fact that they steal group buffs and heals, which is why the top raiding groups don't allow them. As far as them "stealing agro", those tanks don't know what they are talking about. Pet taunts come second to player taunts, there is a priority there. A pet never could take taunt from a player, only if they let their player taunt drop - which is on them for letting that happen regardless of whether a pet is involved or not.

Avran_Sylt

Doesn't Aggro get transferred to the highest damage dealer if the enemy isn't under any taunt effect? given that the pets do negligible damage, shouldn't that mean that as soon as the initial aggro timer runs out (10 secs), the enemy focuses on the dps since the pet isn't actively using a taunt ability?

(sidenote: Caltrops is a great AoE aggro grabber for pulling mobs as a tank)

Emphatic_Static

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Doesn't Aggro get transferred to the highest damage dealer if the enemy isn't under any taunt effect? given that the pets do negligible damage, shouldn't that mean that as soon as the initial aggro timer runs out (10 secs), the enemy focuses on the dps since the pet isn't actively using a taunt ability?

(sidenote: Caltrops is a great AoE aggro grabber for pulling mobs as a tank)

No. It is random, otherwise the healer would never get agro, which happens all the time. Also, the pets are actively using a taunt ability, their light attack. That is how it has always worked.

(sidenote: I hate tanks that think initial agro is sufficient, taunt each individual mob, its your one job! :-D)

paulsimonps

I don't care if its a pug or a nerf, as a tank I love it. There is already enough places were tanks aren't necessary and I want them to be. I want tanks to be a core part of any team regardless of content. And as a raid and dungeon leader I will like this a lot. I HATE when pets take aggro and hold aggro of things and kept mobs far away that I didn't even notice them and then having said mob kill the pet and then come in late. This being in both dungeons, trials and vDSA.

In all honesty more and more so even though the pet deals a considerable amount of damage we see also a lot of fights where we as raid leaders have to put our foot down and say "no you are not running that cause you are causing things to become CC immune with it", ruining tanks ability to chain things in and move stuff around. This is especially so in Veteran Maws first two bosses. If we can't Chain in the adds and cats people will die, and those little scamps can ruin peoples day if they are not handled properly. And since most DPS's go into tunnel vision during trial bosses cause "OMG MY PARSE" They never check were their pet actually is and what it is attacking.

But again, main point, I would rather they not tank stuff so we can actually get a use for proper tanks. I mean look at the bugs that were used in vWGT when it came out where people by passed all mechanics just cause the pets could hold aggro on the boss. I would rather not see anything like that again.

Avran_Sylt

@Emphatic_Static

Oh, I mean as a way to get all the enemies initially focused on you so you can kite them into a group. then start stabby stabby and yelly yelly with your taunts.

Shad0wfire99

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

I don't think it was really ever a feature of the pets to Tank, may have been an accident but I've seen people like this feature and hate it, specifically in trials. I've seen leads threaten to kick pet sorcs if they don't drop familiar because it's unintentionally drawing aggro. I see what you are saying in your discussion as the benefits it provides but it can also be a double edged sword and hurt players too causing deaths and group wipes. As a pet mag Sorc DD, I would love to have the pet hold aggro while I solo world bosses or dungeons. In trials however it shouldn't be. Maybe an implementation of it into the horribly developed "command pet" control to be able to tell your pet to hold aggro or not to. But seeing as how whenever ZOS makes one change they break 5 others I can see bad things still coming from this from their end.

I fully agree for trials. In fact, I am of the mindset that pets shouldn't be used in trials at ALL. It is a fact that they steal group buffs and heals, which is why the top raiding groups don't allow them. As far as them "stealing agro", those tanks don't know what they are talking about. Pet taunts come second to player taunts, there is a priority there. A pet never could take taunt from a player, only if they let their player taunt drop - which is on them for letting that happen regardless of whether a pet is involved or not.

Pretty sure the number 1 raid group in the world runs 7 sorcs. Also pretty sure that they use pets everywhere that isn't the Mage fight.

Avran_Sylt

Oh, and also, it doesn't matter if it's "always worked" that way. unless it's stated in the tooltip that the pets light attacks taunt, they shouldn't taunt.

Emphatic_Static

paulsimonps wrote: »

I don't care if its a pug or a nerf, as a tank I love it. There is already enough places were tanks aren't necessary and I want them to be. I want tanks to be a core part of any team regardless of content. And as a raid and dungeon leader I will like this a lot. I HATE when pets take aggro and hold aggro of things and kept mobs far away that I didn't even notice them and then having said mob kill the pet and then come in late. This being in both dungeons, trials and vDSA.

In all honesty more and more so even though the pet deals a considerable amount of damage we see also a lot of fights where we as raid leaders have to put our foot down and say "no you are not running that cause you are causing things to become CC immune with it", ruining tanks ability to chain things in and move stuff around. This is especially so in Veteran Maws first two bosses. If we can't Chain in the adds and cats people will die, and those little scamps can ruin peoples day if they are not handled properly. And since most DPS's go into tunnel vision during trial bosses cause "OMG MY PARSE" They never check were their pet actually is and what it is attacking.

But again, main point, I would rather they not tank stuff so we can actually get a use for proper tanks. I mean look at the bugs that were used in vWGT when it came out where people by passed all mechanics just cause the pets could hold aggro on the boss. I would rather not see anything like that again.

Good to see a main tanks perspective. I agree that in trials, as I stated above, pets shouldn't even be an option, for several reasons. I would, however, point out that if sorc pets are off in a corner attacking a monster, holding agro on it, then that sorcerer doesn't know how to use their pet right. I would say 90% of pet sorcs have no idea how to command their pets lol. Sad but true. ZOS slips in a "pet command" button, but never - anywhere in the game - do they explain how to use it. Pathetic. But regardless, I agree with you, pets shouldn't have a place in a trial environment.

Avran_Sylt

I'd actually label using the pets to tank due to an unknown/unstated issue with aggro an exploit.

Emphatic_Static

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Emphatic_Static

Oh, I mean as a way to get all the enemies initially focused on you so you can kite them into a group. then start stabby stabby and yelly yelly with your taunts.

Gotcha. LOL at stabby stabby yelly yelly

AlienatedGoat

This is a Nerf.

Unless your pet looks like this, it shouldn't be tanking.

Emphatic_Static

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

Pretty sure the number 1 raid group in the world runs 7 sorcs. Also pretty sure that they use pets everywhere that isn't the Mage fight.

Pretty sure none of us are a part of the number 1 raid group lol. Both sides can totally be argued for, and should be! 100% dependent upon your group composition for trials. But what I'd like to focus on is the taunting abilities of the volatile familiar in this discussion, if we could.

Solariken

This is a Nerf.

AFAIK the Clannfear is the only sorc pet that is intended to pseudo-tank.

IronCrystal

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

I don't think it was really ever a feature of the pets to Tank, may have been an accident but I've seen people like this feature and hate it, specifically in trials. I've seen leads threaten to kick pet sorcs if they don't drop familiar because it's unintentionally drawing aggro. I see what you are saying in your discussion as the benefits it provides but it can also be a double edged sword and hurt players too causing deaths and group wipes. As a pet mag Sorc DD, I would love to have the pet hold aggro while I solo world bosses or dungeons. In trials however it shouldn't be. Maybe an implementation of it into the horribly developed "command pet" control to be able to tell your pet to hold aggro or not to. But seeing as how whenever ZOS makes one change they break 5 others I can see bad things still coming from this from their end.

I fully agree for trials. In fact, I am of the mindset that pets shouldn't be used in trials at ALL. It is a fact that they steal group buffs and heals, which is why the top raiding groups don't allow them. As far as them "stealing agro", those tanks don't know what they are talking about. Pet taunts come second to player taunts, there is a priority there. A pet never could take taunt from a player, only if they let their player taunt drop - which is on them for letting that happen regardless of whether a pet is involved or not.

Pretty sure the number 1 raid group in the world runs 7 sorcs. Also pretty sure that they use pets everywhere that isn't the Mage fight.

I assume you are referring to HODOR and not a single one of their top scores uses 7 sorcs. At most they've used 5. I can't attest to whether they used pets or not from the leaderboards.

AlienatedGoat

This is a Nerf.

Solariken wrote: »

AFAIK the Clannfear is the only sorc pet that is intended to pseudo-tank.

That's because Clannfears are freakin' amazing.

You seen that knockdown attack? It's pretty impressive. Takes some serious force to knock down a fully grown Nord.

Tommy_The_Gun

"They Broke Pet Sorcs?"

They were broken from the start so...

Shad0wfire99

IronCrystal wrote: »

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

I don't think it was really ever a feature of the pets to Tank, may have been an accident but I've seen people like this feature and hate it, specifically in trials. I've seen leads threaten to kick pet sorcs if they don't drop familiar because it's unintentionally drawing aggro. I see what you are saying in your discussion as the benefits it provides but it can also be a double edged sword and hurt players too causing deaths and group wipes. As a pet mag Sorc DD, I would love to have the pet hold aggro while I solo world bosses or dungeons. In trials however it shouldn't be. Maybe an implementation of it into the horribly developed "command pet" control to be able to tell your pet to hold aggro or not to. But seeing as how whenever ZOS makes one change they break 5 others I can see bad things still coming from this from their end.

I fully agree for trials. In fact, I am of the mindset that pets shouldn't be used in trials at ALL. It is a fact that they steal group buffs and heals, which is why the top raiding groups don't allow them. As far as them "stealing agro", those tanks don't know what they are talking about. Pet taunts come second to player taunts, there is a priority there. A pet never could take taunt from a player, only if they let their player taunt drop - which is on them for letting that happen regardless of whether a pet is involved or not.

Pretty sure the number 1 raid group in the world runs 7 sorcs. Also pretty sure that they use pets everywhere that isn't the Mage fight.

I assume you are referring to HODOR and not a single one of their top scores uses 7 sorcs. At most they've used 5. I can't attest to whether they used pets or not from the leaderboards.

I am referring to Hodor. And I'm going by Alcast's words in one of his more recent streams.

AlienatedGoat

This is a Nerf.

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

I am referring to Hodor. And I'm going by Alcast's words in one of his more recent streams.

What did he say?

Was it Hodor?

Kammakazi

ZoS watched too many @Vaoh videos

paulsimonps

IronCrystal wrote: »

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

I don't think it was really ever a feature of the pets to Tank, may have been an accident but I've seen people like this feature and hate it, specifically in trials. I've seen leads threaten to kick pet sorcs if they don't drop familiar because it's unintentionally drawing aggro. I see what you are saying in your discussion as the benefits it provides but it can also be a double edged sword and hurt players too causing deaths and group wipes. As a pet mag Sorc DD, I would love to have the pet hold aggro while I solo world bosses or dungeons. In trials however it shouldn't be. Maybe an implementation of it into the horribly developed "command pet" control to be able to tell your pet to hold aggro or not to. But seeing as how whenever ZOS makes one change they break 5 others I can see bad things still coming from this from their end.

I fully agree for trials. In fact, I am of the mindset that pets shouldn't be used in trials at ALL. It is a fact that they steal group buffs and heals, which is why the top raiding groups don't allow them. As far as them "stealing agro", those tanks don't know what they are talking about. Pet taunts come second to player taunts, there is a priority there. A pet never could take taunt from a player, only if they let their player taunt drop - which is on them for letting that happen regardless of whether a pet is involved or not.

Pretty sure the number 1 raid group in the world runs 7 sorcs. Also pretty sure that they use pets everywhere that isn't the Mage fight.

I assume you are referring to HODOR and not a single one of their top scores uses 7 sorcs. At most they've used 5. I can't attest to whether they used pets or not from the leaderboards.

I know that they don't use pets during the Twins in Maw, the CC immunity the pets give the adds messes everything up.

IronCrystal

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

I don't think it was really ever a feature of the pets to Tank, may have been an accident but I've seen people like this feature and hate it, specifically in trials. I've seen leads threaten to kick pet sorcs if they don't drop familiar because it's unintentionally drawing aggro. I see what you are saying in your discussion as the benefits it provides but it can also be a double edged sword and hurt players too causing deaths and group wipes. As a pet mag Sorc DD, I would love to have the pet hold aggro while I solo world bosses or dungeons. In trials however it shouldn't be. Maybe an implementation of it into the horribly developed "command pet" control to be able to tell your pet to hold aggro or not to. But seeing as how whenever ZOS makes one change they break 5 others I can see bad things still coming from this from their end.

I fully agree for trials. In fact, I am of the mindset that pets shouldn't be used in trials at ALL. It is a fact that they steal group buffs and heals, which is why the top raiding groups don't allow them. As far as them "stealing agro", those tanks don't know what they are talking about. Pet taunts come second to player taunts, there is a priority there. A pet never could take taunt from a player, only if they let their player taunt drop - which is on them for letting that happen regardless of whether a pet is involved or not.

Pretty sure the number 1 raid group in the world runs 7 sorcs. Also pretty sure that they use pets everywhere that isn't the Mage fight.

I assume you are referring to HODOR and not a single one of their top scores uses 7 sorcs. At most they've used 5. I can't attest to whether they used pets or not from the leaderboards.

I am referring to Hodor. And I'm going by Alcast's words in one of his more recent streams.

Well, I'm just saying their #1 scores right now have 5 sorcs, not 7.

Also, in addition to the Mage, they shouldn't be using them in the Warrior either, as they draw starfall which just increases all incoming damage (and yes has killed people).

zaria

paulsimonps wrote: »

I don't care if its a pug or a nerf, as a tank I love it. There is already enough places were tanks aren't necessary and I want them to be. I want tanks to be a core part of any team regardless of content. And as a raid and dungeon leader I will like this a lot. I HATE when pets take aggro and hold aggro of things and kept mobs far away that I didn't even notice them and then having said mob kill the pet and then come in late. This being in both dungeons, trials and vDSA.

In all honesty more and more so even though the pet deals a considerable amount of damage we see also a lot of fights where we as raid leaders have to put our foot down and say "no you are not running that cause you are causing things to become CC immune with it", ruining tanks ability to chain things in and move stuff around. This is especially so in Veteran Maws first two bosses. If we can't Chain in the adds and cats people will die, and those little scamps can ruin peoples day if they are not handled properly. And since most DPS's go into tunnel vision during trial bosses cause "OMG MY PARSE" They never check were their pet actually is and what it is attacking.

But again, main point, I would rather they not tank stuff so we can actually get a use for proper tanks. I mean look at the bugs that were used in vWGT when it came out where people by passed all mechanics just cause the pets could hold aggro on the boss. I would rather not see anything like that again.

As I understand pets will only hold agro if sorc is the only doing damage on target.
Has also seen this myself some times on some public dungeon bosses.
Soloed the big robot in old orcinium, and finished the quest, some other guy came in and died to the boss so I helped, now the clanfear would not hold agro

Pets in trials has other problems like how they die in one shot mechanisms and its an problem with the chain lightning in AA.

Emphatic_Static

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

"They Broke Pet Sorcs?"

They were broken from the start so...

So much truth...

Vaoh

This is a Nerf.

Kammakazi wrote: »

ZoS watched too many @Vaoh videos

SirMewser

Do you think pets steal buffs?

Do you think they pull agro in trial runs?

Do you think they don't stealth?

You're wrong, but don't worry, you made it this far, the forums have had answers to all of these delusions for ages!

Was going to post in response to others in the context of trial runs, however, this subject has already derailed itself from the OP's statement and is full of false positives.

The ignorance of players not using pet commands to set pets to be passive solves the agro issue, otherwise, not using this feature on PC but exclusive to console would suggest the player is not optimizing their use of pets to begin with.

Yes pets have problems, so do some players that use them, therefore bestows idiotic bias into the observers which in result compromises threads like this.

The functionality of the pet has indeed changed, this isn't a myth, so don't theorize with it ever existing because clearly there is a lack of experience to have a past point of reference as this change is quite obvious.

Others have pointed this out in other threads, the developers have not commented on this subject.

Personally I do not care for this change because it was silly for a lesser daedra to hold agro on bosses especially in trial runs in a boss fight start to finish, "but that has never happened in history, I am credible!", yeah?

Go ahead and say whatever cute things you want.

Wrecking_Blow_Spam

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I don't care if its a pug or a nerf, as a tank I love it. There is already enough places were tanks aren't necessary and I want them to be. I want tanks to be a core part of any team regardless of content. And as a raid and dungeon leader I will like this a lot. I HATE when pets take aggro and hold aggro of things and kept mobs far away that I didn't even notice them and then having said mob kill the pet and then come in late. This being in both dungeons, trials and vDSA.

In all honesty more and more so even though the pet deals a considerable amount of damage we see also a lot of fights where we as raid leaders have to put our foot down and say "no you are not running that cause you are causing things to become CC immune with it", ruining tanks ability to chain things in and move stuff around. This is especially so in Veteran Maws first two bosses. If we can't Chain in the adds and cats people will die, and those little scamps can ruin peoples day if they are not handled properly. And since most DPS's go into tunnel vision during trial bosses cause "OMG MY PARSE" They never check were their pet actually is and what it is attacking.

But again, main point, I would rather they not tank stuff so we can actually get a use for proper tanks. I mean look at the bugs that were used in vWGT when it came out where people by passed all mechanics just cause the pets could hold aggro on the boss. I would rather not see anything like that again.

Good to see a main tanks perspective. I agree that in trials, as I stated above, pets shouldn't even be an option, for several reasons. I would, however, point out that if sorc pets are off in a corner attacking a monster, holding agro on it, then that sorcerer doesn't know how to use their pet right. I would say 90% of pet sorcs have no idea how to command their pets lol. Sad but true. ZOS slips in a "pet command" button, but never - anywhere in the game - do they explain how to use it. Pathetic. But regardless, I agree with you, pets shouldn't have a place in a trial environment.

Is the pet command a PC only thing?

I've tried many combos on Xbox but the little fella does what he wants. Please enlighten me if I can command him elsewhere. Ty

Emphatic_Static

SirMewser wrote: »

Do you think pets steal buffs?

Do you think they pull agro in trial runs?

Do you think they don't stealth?

You're wrong, but don't worry, you made it this far, the forums have had answers to all of these delusions for ages!

Was going to post in response to others in the context of trial runs, however, this subject has already derailed itself from the OP's statement and is full of false positives.

The ignorance of players not using pet commands to set pets to be passive solves the agro issue, otherwise, not using this feature on PC but exclusive to console would suggest the player is not optimizing their use of pets to begin with.

Yes pets have problems, so do some players that use them, therefore bestows idiotic bias into the observers which in result compromises threads like this.

The functionality of the pet has indeed changed, this isn't a myth, so don't theorize with it ever existing because clearly there is a lack of experience to have a past point of reference as this change is quite obvious.

Others have pointed this out in other threads, the developers have not commented on this subject.

Personally I do not care for this change because it was silly for a lesser daedra to hold agro on bosses especially in trial runs in a boss fight start to finish, "but that has never happened in history, I am credible!", yeah?

Go ahead and say whatever cute things you want.

Thanks for your input. I agree. Pets in group environments don't have to be a pain. This would, however, require that sorcs know how to properly control their pets, which as stated above, 90% or more most likely have no idea how to do this. I believe this is honestly ZOS's fault, as they have put no effort into making it clear how to use the pet command.

As far as them stealing buffs, that part is true.

Agro? Agreed. That is a poor tank who let taunt fall, and the boss could have possibly went to anyone in group, and would have if a pet wasn't there due to their second priority "taunt", which would only "steal agro" if the tank messed up and forgot to taunt.

Idk about stealth, I've never used one in pvp as I am a stam sorc just utilizing the familiar in pve, beats me.

But once again, as you have said, all of this is not the point lol. The familiar can't taunt now - I dislike the change, but understand why it was made. I think I'm more pissed that they did it without including it in the patch notes - that is dishonest and unfair. And they most certainly knew what they were doing. That's just my opinion, I think they should be more straight forward with the players rather than nerfing things and not admitting they have done so.

Emphatic_Static

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

Emphatic_Static wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I don't care if its a pug or a nerf, as a tank I love it. There is already enough places were tanks aren't necessary and I want them to be. I want tanks to be a core part of any team regardless of content. And as a raid and dungeon leader I will like this a lot. I HATE when pets take aggro and hold aggro of things and kept mobs far away that I didn't even notice them and then having said mob kill the pet and then come in late. This being in both dungeons, trials and vDSA.

In all honesty more and more so even though the pet deals a considerable amount of damage we see also a lot of fights where we as raid leaders have to put our foot down and say "no you are not running that cause you are causing things to become CC immune with it", ruining tanks ability to chain things in and move stuff around. This is especially so in Veteran Maws first two bosses. If we can't Chain in the adds and cats people will die, and those little scamps can ruin peoples day if they are not handled properly. And since most DPS's go into tunnel vision during trial bosses cause "OMG MY PARSE" They never check were their pet actually is and what it is attacking.

But again, main point, I would rather they not tank stuff so we can actually get a use for proper tanks. I mean look at the bugs that were used in vWGT when it came out where people by passed all mechanics just cause the pets could hold aggro on the boss. I would rather not see anything like that again.

Good to see a main tanks perspective. I agree that in trials, as I stated above, pets shouldn't even be an option, for several reasons. I would, however, point out that if sorc pets are off in a corner attacking a monster, holding agro on it, then that sorcerer doesn't know how to use their pet right. I would say 90% of pet sorcs have no idea how to command their pets lol. Sad but true. ZOS slips in a "pet command" button, but never - anywhere in the game - do they explain how to use it. Pathetic. But regardless, I agree with you, pets shouldn't have a place in a trial environment.

Is the pet command a PC only thing?

I've tried many combos on Xbox but the little fella does what he wants. Please enlighten me if I can command him elsewhere. Ty

Yes, I believe console does not have access to the pet command feature - correct me if I am wrong - but I believe that is the case. That is really messed up, but don't worry, its so poorly implemented that you aren't missing much.

mewcatus

This is a Bug.

Feels like an annoying bug. Attacks a world boss for a while, then the boss would for no reason attack me even though I did not taunt him.