I'm far from any expert on builds but from my understanding people use both.
Main bar as a single target bar with Inferno Staff, slotting something from destro there (harder if your spam isn't Force Shock).
Second bar is AoE spells with a lightning staff.
I'm far from any expert on builds but from my understanding people use both.
Main bar as a single target bar with Inferno Staff, slotting something from destro there (harder if your spam isn't Force Shock).
Second bar is AoE spells with a lightning staff.
Ah! Of course. So I'm assuming Elemental Blockade goes on the lightning staff bar? Does the 8% damage increase passive still hold its effect after I swap to inferno staff?
It depends on the ratio of your Single target to AOE dmg. Roughly you can say that if you have more than 50% AOE dmg a lightning staff on your Frontbar makes more sense. For Magblades Dual Inferno should be the way to go since only blockade and path count as AOE and they together won't make more than 50% of your DPS.
You basically always want to play with the fire blockade, because it deals 20% more dmg against burning targets and your targets will be burning most of the time if you play with burning spellweave. You might consider using a lightning staff for AOE situations to boost your sap essence, but for Single target Dual Inferno will be best.
For other classes:
DK: Dual Inferno
Sorc: Lightning/Inferno (with pet), Dual Inferno without pet
Templar: dual wield/Inferno or lightning/Inferno
It depends on the ratio of your Single target to AOE dmg. Roughly you can say that if you have more than 50% AOE dmg a lightning staff on your Frontbar makes more sense. For Magblades Dual Inferno should be the way to go since only blockade and path count as AOE and they together won't make more than 50% of your DPS.
You basically always want to play with the fire blockade, because it deals 20% more dmg against burning targets and your targets will be burning most of the time if you play with burning spellweave. You might consider using a lightning staff for AOE situations to boost your sap essence, but for Single target Dual Inferno will be best.
For other classes:
DK: Dual Inferno
Sorc: Lightning/Inferno (with pet), Dual Inferno without pet
Templar: dual wield/Inferno or lightning/Inferno
Does this change if I don't have BSW yet? I'm planning on having my magblade in 5 x Julianos, 3 x Willpower, 1 x Molag Kena and 2 x Torug's while farming up BSW/Scathing Mage.
It depends on the ratio of your Single target to AOE dmg. Roughly you can say that if you have more than 50% AOE dmg a lightning staff on your Frontbar makes more sense. For Magblades Dual Inferno should be the way to go since only blockade and path count as AOE and they together won't make more than 50% of your DPS.
You basically always want to play with the fire blockade, because it deals 20% more dmg against burning targets and your targets will be burning most of the time if you play with burning spellweave. You might consider using a lightning staff for AOE situations to boost your sap essence, but for Single target Dual Inferno will be best.
For other classes:
DK: Dual Inferno
Sorc: Lightning/Inferno (with pet), Dual Inferno without pet
Templar: dual wield/Inferno or lightning/Inferno
Does this change if I don't have BSW yet? I'm planning on having my magblade in 5 x Julianos, 3 x Willpower, 1 x Molag Kena and 2 x Torug's while farming up BSW/Scathing Mage.
It depends on the ratio of your Single target to AOE dmg. Roughly you can say that if you have more than 50% AOE dmg a lightning staff on your Frontbar makes more sense. For Magblades Dual Inferno should be the way to go since only blockade and path count as AOE and they together won't make more than 50% of your DPS.
You basically always want to play with the fire blockade, because it deals 20% more dmg against burning targets and your targets will be burning most of the time if you play with burning spellweave. You might consider using a lightning staff for AOE situations to boost your sap essence, but for Single target Dual Inferno will be best.
For other classes:
DK: Dual Inferno
Sorc: Lightning/Inferno (with pet), Dual Inferno without pet
Templar: dual wield/Inferno or lightning/Inferno
It depends on the ratio of your Single target to AOE dmg. Roughly you can say that if you have more than 50% AOE dmg a lightning staff on your Frontbar makes more sense. For Magblades Dual Inferno should be the way to go since only blockade and path count as AOE and they together won't make more than 50% of your DPS.
You basically always want to play with the fire blockade, because it deals 20% more dmg against burning targets and your targets will be burning most of the time if you play with burning spellweave. You might consider using a lightning staff for AOE situations to boost your sap essence, but for Single target Dual Inferno will be best.
For other classes:
DK: Dual Inferno
Sorc: Lightning/Inferno (with pet), Dual Inferno without pet
Templar: dual wield/Inferno or lightning/Inferno
Blockade + Destro Ulti + Path+Illambri's/Grothdarr is about 40% of your DPS on a single target. With adds it will be even more. Not at all sure it's not worth it to run Lightning on one of the bars. Not to mention, that Lightning gives access to Lightning destro ulti which is better than Fire and boosts Illambri's/Grothdarr.
It depends on the ratio of your Single target to AOE dmg. Roughly you can say that if you have more than 50% AOE dmg a lightning staff on your Frontbar makes more sense. For Magblades Dual Inferno should be the way to go since only blockade and path count as AOE and they together won't make more than 50% of your DPS.
You basically always want to play with the fire blockade, because it deals 20% more dmg against burning targets and your targets will be burning most of the time if you play with burning spellweave. You might consider using a lightning staff for AOE situations to boost your sap essence, but for Single target Dual Inferno will be best.
For other classes:
DK: Dual Inferno
Sorc: Lightning/Inferno (with pet), Dual Inferno without pet
Templar: dual wield/Inferno or lightning/Inferno
Blockade + Destro Ulti + Path+Illambri's/Grothdarr is about 40% of your DPS on a single target. With adds it will be even more. Not at all sure it's not worth it to run Lightning on one of the bars. Not to mention, that Lightning gives access to Lightning destro ulti which is better than Fire and boosts Illambri's/Grothdarr.
While it is true that the dmg on adds might increase, it is irrelevant in most cases. The choice you have to make is, if you want to have more single target or more aoe dmg. Most fights end when the boss dies, no matter how much dmg was done against the adds, therefore a lightning staff might bring higher DPS because your splash dmg is higher, but the fight will take longer than with an inferno staff on your frontbar. There are only very few fights where it is really relevant to focus on adds and a lightning staff will become the better weapon.
For AOE situations lightning will cleary win over inferno staffs, so one should have a lightning staff as backup for AOE intense dungeons/trials.
While it is true that the dmg on adds might increase, it is irrelevant in most cases. The choice you have to make is, if you want to have more single target or more aoe dmg. Most fights end when the boss dies, no matter how much dmg was done against the adds, therefore a lightning staff might bring higher DPS because your splash dmg is higher, but the fight will take longer than with an inferno staff on your frontbar. There are only very few fights where it is really relevant to focus on adds and a lightning staff will become the better weapon.
For AOE situations lightning will cleary win over inferno staffs, so one should have a lightning staff as backup for AOE intense dungeons/trials.
Fire Blockade is stronger than Lightning Blockade if there's already a source of Minor Vulnerability in your group. 20% more damage on the Blockade against Burning enemies is too good to pass up, especially if you're running Burning Spellweave.I'm far from any expert on builds but from my understanding people use both.
Main bar as a single target bar with Inferno Staff, slotting something from destro there (harder if your spam isn't Force Shock).
Second bar is AoE spells with a lightning staff.
Ah! Of course. So I'm assuming Elemental Blockade goes on the lightning staff bar? Does the 8% damage increase passive still hold its effect after I swap to inferno staff?
While it is true that the dmg on adds might increase, it is irrelevant in most cases. The choice you have to make is, if you want to have more single target or more aoe dmg. Most fights end when the boss dies, no matter how much dmg was done against the adds, therefore a lightning staff might bring higher DPS because your splash dmg is higher, but the fight will take longer than with an inferno staff on your frontbar. There are only very few fights where it is really relevant to focus on adds and a lightning staff will become the better weapon.
For AOE situations lightning will cleary win over inferno staffs, so one should have a lightning staff as backup for AOE intense dungeons/trials.
In what most cases is it irrelevant? Are you minmaxing for Angof?
In most cases it's irrelevant what you are using at all. In cases that matter - like VMOL or vrom/vcos, you will always have adds and you can't just ignore them, too.. For example, Hulk must die to cleave and must die fast enough, cats should die asap, adds on twins should die asap. Ignoring AOE is not a way to go. I honestly don't understand how you can be raiding end-game and say that, when all vmol fights require AOE. Or seriously, what are those most cases where the build matters at all?
I didn't get your point, I guess.
While it is true that the dmg on adds might increase, it is irrelevant in most cases. The choice you have to make is, if you want to have more single target or more aoe dmg. Most fights end when the boss dies, no matter how much dmg was done against the adds, therefore a lightning staff might bring higher DPS because your splash dmg is higher, but the fight will take longer than with an inferno staff on your frontbar. There are only very few fights where it is really relevant to focus on adds and a lightning staff will become the better weapon.
For AOE situations lightning will cleary win over inferno staffs, so one should have a lightning staff as backup for AOE intense dungeons/trials.
In what most cases is it irrelevant? Are you minmaxing for Angof?
In most cases it's irrelevant what you are using at all. In cases that matter - like VMOL or vrom/vcos, you will always have adds and you can't just ignore them, too.. For example, Hulk must die to cleave and must die fast enough, cats should die asap, adds on twins should die asap. Ignoring AOE is not a way to go. I honestly don't understand how you can be raiding end-game and say that, when all vmol fights require AOE. Or seriously, what are those most cases where the build matters at all?
I didn't get your point, I guess.
First of all everything you can do in terms of gear choice is within a range of +-2-3% DPS. Player skill, meaning keeping up the rotation and weaving properly, will make a much bigger difference than gear. The gear choice only determines the upper limit for a perfect playstyle.
OP asked what staff would suit a NB best and thats dual inferno in general with some exceptions, like some of the ones you mentioned. You say vMOL is the only place where it matters? In every other trial you will go for maximum single target DPS and just let the adds die and it does not matter if they live for a few more seconds (and thats what we are talking about here). Timing ultimates well for add phases makes a way bigger difference than the weapon choice. But the solution for raids like vMOL is not to use a lightning staff, but to take a Sorc instead of a NB if you really want to go for the maximum cleave and single target dmg. Guess why there is no NB in the top 5 vMOL scores on PC EU and only a few in the lower ranks?
But even in the case you stick with a NB: If you take a look at the vMOL top score its maximum single target dmg (apart from Alcast using ritual of retribution on a templar, which is a DPS loss on a single target and a boost to AOE). Panthers get pulled and rooted, adds in the twin fight die with ultimates and the hulk just dies in the cleave dmg. You need to push for maximum single target dmg in order to skip some phases like having to send runners for the 2nd time in vMOL HM, or skipping the split phase in Sanctum HM. You only need to have more cleave dmg if your tanks/healers can't handle the adds for a little bit longer.
On the other hand, when you really want single adds like the hulk or the little mages in vAA HM to die as fast as possible, dual inferno will still kill them faster, but you might loose a bit DPS on the boss. This is also the case for most trash fights: There is one add that gets focused because it has to die asap or has the most health and the rest will die anyways and/or does not matter.
While it is true that the dmg on adds might increase, it is irrelevant in most cases. The choice you have to make is, if you want to have more single target or more aoe dmg. Most fights end when the boss dies, no matter how much dmg was done against the adds, therefore a lightning staff might bring higher DPS because your splash dmg is higher, but the fight will take longer than with an inferno staff on your frontbar. There are only very few fights where it is really relevant to focus on adds and a lightning staff will become the better weapon.
For AOE situations lightning will cleary win over inferno staffs, so one should have a lightning staff as backup for AOE intense dungeons/trials.
In what most cases is it irrelevant? Are you minmaxing for Angof?
In most cases it's irrelevant what you are using at all. In cases that matter - like VMOL or vrom/vcos, you will always have adds and you can't just ignore them, too.. For example, Hulk must die to cleave and must die fast enough, cats should die asap, adds on twins should die asap. Ignoring AOE is not a way to go. I honestly don't understand how you can be raiding end-game and say that, when all vmol fights require AOE. Or seriously, what are those most cases where the build matters at all?
I didn't get your point, I guess.
First of all everything you can do in terms of gear choice is within a range of +-2-3% DPS. Player skill, meaning keeping up the rotation and weaving properly, will make a much bigger difference than gear. The gear choice only determines the upper limit for a perfect playstyle.
OP asked what staff would suit a NB best and thats dual inferno in general with some exceptions, like some of the ones you mentioned. You say vMOL is the only place where it matters? In every other trial you will go for maximum single target DPS and just let the adds die and it does not matter if they live for a few more seconds (and thats what we are talking about here). Timing ultimates well for add phases makes a way bigger difference than the weapon choice. But the solution for raids like vMOL is not to use a lightning staff, but to take a Sorc instead of a NB if you really want to go for the maximum cleave and single target dmg. Guess why there is no NB in the top 5 vMOL scores on PC EU and only a few in the lower ranks?
But even in the case you stick with a NB: If you take a look at the vMOL top score its maximum single target dmg (apart from Alcast using ritual of retribution on a templar, which is a DPS loss on a single target and a boost to AOE). Panthers get pulled and rooted, adds in the twin fight die with ultimates and the hulk just dies in the cleave dmg. You need to push for maximum single target dmg in order to skip some phases like having to send runners for the 2nd time in vMOL HM, or skipping the split phase in Sanctum HM. You only need to have more cleave dmg if your tanks/healers can't handle the adds for a little bit longer.
On the other hand, when you really want single adds like the hulk or the little mages in vAA HM to die as fast as possible, dual inferno will still kill them faster, but you might loose a bit DPS on the boss. This is also the case for most trash fights: There is one add that gets focused because it has to die asap or has the most health and the rest will die anyways and/or does not matter.
Which is basically exactly my point. Only top vmol groups can pull that off. In most cases aoe will matter.
p.s. Here we are talking about that one gear choice that is worth up to 8% damage depending on the time on each bar.
And you are forgetting one simple thing. When NB switches to the back bar to reapply Path and Trap or Rune or whatever and cast a destro ulti, what single target skills are doing any considerable damage at that point? Only Crippling Grasp. Top 3 DPS sources that can also do damage while on the back bar are all AoE. Everything single-target is on the front bar and there's only one single target DOT that is used.
I guess you can calculate what's better 8% to CG or 8% to blockade, path, grothdarr/illambris and destro ulti. taking into account the time spent on the back bar, if you want to answer this question strictly. But I'm pretty sure it's obvious which one will result in more damage. There's nothing doing single target damage when NB is on the back bar, so why use inferno there? Oh, maybe AW? But again, it's not that of the % of the total DPS + arguably it's a dps loss in groups.
Why even argue? Do a dps test with Fire-Fire and Fire-Lightning and check. Maybe I'll have time later this week to do it too. But so far the theory is strongly for Fire-Lightning over Fire-Fire. But of course, in the end - the experiment is the king and can prove me wrong. So far I'm not convinced that 8% to crippling grasp and maybe AW is better than 8% to path, blockade, grothdar/illambris, destro ulti and maybe rune.
Notice, that right now I'm talking about single target DPS only, no adds. On a single target parse, aoe skills make up for higher percentage of the DPS than single target skills that deal damage on the back bar.
Adds add even more to it.
Numers taken from video below: AOE: 40,20% DPS CG: (9,7/1,08)% DPS = 8,98% DPS (divided by 1,08 to since dual inferno setup was used) Assuming 3/12 sec on the backbar we get: Dual inferno: 8,98%*1,08 + 40,20% = 49,9% DPS Inferno/Lightning: 3/12*(40,20%*1,08+8,98%) + 9/12*49,9% = 50,5% DPS Thats a 0,62% DPS difference, or 250 DPS at 40k.
Numers taken from video below: AOE: 40,20% DPS Single Target: (59,80/1,08)% DPS = 55,37% DPS Assuming 3/12 sec on the backbar we get: Dual inferno: 100% DPS Lightning/Inferno: 9/12*(40,20%*1,08+55,37%) + 3/12*100% = 99,09% DPS Thats a whooping 0,91% DPS difference, or 364 DPS at 40k.
Whew! That's a lot of information to digest, hahaha. Thanks again for your input, everyone!
So from what I can tell, it's not really much of a difference (within a percentile) if I run Inferno/lightning or Inferno/Inferno?
A little unrelated question (I didn't want to make another thread for this), but should I be using Force Pulse or Funnel Health as my spammable? And should I be double slotting Inner Light?
A little unrelated question (I didn't want to make another thread for this), but should I be using Force Pulse or Funnel Health as my spammable? And should I be double slotting Inner Light?
Definitely double slot inner light. Force Pulse will deal slightly more dmg, procs Ilambris if you are using it and will give you slightly better uptimes for BSW. Funnel gives you some self healing and ultimate gain. Both can work well but depending on what you are using you might have to adjust your skill layout to keep one syphoning and one destruction ability on each bar for the passives.
While it is true that the dmg on adds might increase, it is irrelevant in most cases. The choice you have to make is, if you want to have more single target or more aoe dmg. Most fights end when the boss dies, no matter how much dmg was done against the adds, therefore a lightning staff might bring higher DPS because your splash dmg is higher, but the fight will take longer than with an inferno staff on your frontbar. There are only very few fights where it is really relevant to focus on adds and a lightning staff will become the better weapon.
For AOE situations lightning will cleary win over inferno staffs, so one should have a lightning staff as backup for AOE intense dungeons/trials.
In what most cases is it irrelevant? Are you minmaxing for Angof?
In most cases it's irrelevant what you are using at all. In cases that matter - like VMOL or vrom/vcos, you will always have adds and you can't just ignore them, too.. For example, Hulk must die to cleave and must die fast enough, cats should die asap, adds on twins should die asap. Ignoring AOE is not a way to go. I honestly don't understand how you can be raiding end-game and say that, when all vmol fights require AOE. Or seriously, what are those most cases where the build matters at all?
I didn't get your point, I guess.
First of all everything you can do in terms of gear choice is within a range of +-2-3% DPS. Player skill, meaning keeping up the rotation and weaving properly, will make a much bigger difference than gear. The gear choice only determines the upper limit for a perfect playstyle.
OP asked what staff would suit a NB best and thats dual inferno in general with some exceptions, like some of the ones you mentioned. You say vMOL is the only place where it matters? In every other trial you will go for maximum single target DPS and just let the adds die and it does not matter if they live for a few more seconds (and thats what we are talking about here). Timing ultimates well for add phases makes a way bigger difference than the weapon choice. But the solution for raids like vMOL is not to use a lightning staff, but to take a Sorc instead of a NB if you really want to go for the maximum cleave and single target dmg. Guess why there is no NB in the top 5 vMOL scores on PC EU and only a few in the lower ranks?
But even in the case you stick with a NB: If you take a look at the vMOL top score its maximum single target dmg (apart from Alcast using ritual of retribution on a templar, which is a DPS loss on a single target and a boost to AOE). Panthers get pulled and rooted, adds in the twin fight die with ultimates and the hulk just dies in the cleave dmg. You need to push for maximum single target dmg in order to skip some phases like having to send runners for the 2nd time in vMOL HM, or skipping the split phase in Sanctum HM. You only need to have more cleave dmg if your tanks/healers can't handle the adds for a little bit longer.
On the other hand, when you really want single adds like the hulk or the little mages in vAA HM to die as fast as possible, dual inferno will still kill them faster, but you might loose a bit DPS on the boss. This is also the case for most trash fights: There is one add that gets focused because it has to die asap or has the most health and the rest will die anyways and/or does not matter.
Which is basically exactly my point. Only top vmol groups can pull that off. In most cases aoe will matter.
p.s. Here we are talking about that one gear choice that is worth up to 8% damage depending on the time on each bar.
And you are forgetting one simple thing. When NB switches to the back bar to reapply Path and Trap or Rune or whatever and cast a destro ulti, what single target skills are doing any considerable damage at that point? Only Crippling Grasp. Top 3 DPS sources that can also do damage while on the back bar are all AoE. Everything single-target is on the front bar and there's only one single target DOT that is used.
I guess you can calculate what's better 8% to CG or 8% to blockade, path, grothdarr/illambris and destro ulti. taking into account the time spent on the back bar, if you want to answer this question strictly. But I'm pretty sure it's obvious which one will result in more damage. There's nothing doing single target damage when NB is on the back bar, so why use inferno there? Oh, maybe AW? But again, it's not that of the % of the total DPS + arguably it's a dps loss in groups.
Why even argue? Do a dps test with Fire-Fire and Fire-Lightning and check. Maybe I'll have time later this week to do it too. But so far the theory is strongly for Fire-Lightning over Fire-Fire. But of course, in the end - the experiment is the king and can prove me wrong. So far I'm not convinced that 8% to crippling grasp and maybe AW is better than 8% to path, blockade, grothdar/illambris, destro ulti and maybe rune.
Notice, that right now I'm talking about single target DPS only, no adds. On a single target parse, aoe skills make up for higher percentage of the DPS than single target skills that deal damage on the back bar.
Adds add even more to it.
I was talking about the front bar all the time considering a 8 sec backbar rotation with wall and CG on the backbar, since it allows to keep trap and path up perfectly and you have one destro skill on every bar even if you play with soul harvest and meteor. Then there is not choice but to run fire on the back and fire on the front, since the single target abilities deal way more dmg than AOE abilites.
The other setup would be purely ranged with Ilambris instead of Grothdarr, wall and CG on frontbar, lightning backbar with destructive touch and path. I you want to play melee with Grothdarr and trap you will loose the possibility to play with meteor, since you need to have a syphoning and a destro ability on your bar.
For the frontbar the choice is clearly inferno, since 60% of the NB DPS is single target dmg. The choice for the backbar depends on your bar setups. You get the most flexibility for a dual inferno setup with swallow soul on frontbar and CG on backbar. A setup with lighning backbar will completely determine your bars, leaving you without flex spot, thanks to the requirements for the destro and syphoning passive. In the case you want to run a shield you need to drop a kill (most likely trap or destructive touch) and run destro ulti on the backbar.
Sure you get some extra dmg with a lightning backbar but lets calculate it just for the fun:Numers taken from video below: AOE: 40,20% DPS CG: (9,7/1,08)% DPS = 8,98% DPS (divided by 1,08 to since dual inferno setup was used) Assuming 3/12 sec on the backbar we get: Dual inferno: 8,98%*1,08 + 40,20% = 49,9% DPS Inferno/Lightning: 3/12*(40,20%*1,08+8,98%) + 9/12*49,9% = 50,5% DPS Thats a 0,62% DPS difference, or 250 DPS at 40k.
Calculations for lightning vs inferno frontbarNumers taken from video below: AOE: 40,20% DPS Single Target: (59,80/1,08)% DPS = 55,37% DPS Assuming 3/12 sec on the backbar we get: Dual inferno: 100% DPS Lightning/Inferno: 9/12*(40,20%*1,08+55,37%) + 3/12*100% = 99,09% DPS Thats a whooping 0,91% DPS difference, or 364 DPS at 40k.
So we are back to what I said earlier: all setups are within a range of +-2% DPS, in this case even within a 1% range, pretty far away from the maximum difference of 8%.
Numers source (no destro skill on backbar):
https://youtu.be/Hp0m5n3Q_XA?t=50m22s
Ilambris ranged setup with Inferno/Lightning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVjxBZmx7dk&t
While it is true that the dmg on adds might increase, it is irrelevant in most cases. The choice you have to make is, if you want to have more single target or more aoe dmg. Most fights end when the boss dies, no matter how much dmg was done against the adds, therefore a lightning staff might bring higher DPS because your splash dmg is higher, but the fight will take longer than with an inferno staff on your frontbar. There are only very few fights where it is really relevant to focus on adds and a lightning staff will become the better weapon.
For AOE situations lightning will cleary win over inferno staffs, so one should have a lightning staff as backup for AOE intense dungeons/trials.
In what most cases is it irrelevant? Are you minmaxing for Angof?
In most cases it's irrelevant what you are using at all. In cases that matter - like VMOL or vrom/vcos, you will always have adds and you can't just ignore them, too.. For example, Hulk must die to cleave and must die fast enough, cats should die asap, adds on twins should die asap. Ignoring AOE is not a way to go. I honestly don't understand how you can be raiding end-game and say that, when all vmol fights require AOE. Or seriously, what are those most cases where the build matters at all?
I didn't get your point, I guess.
First of all everything you can do in terms of gear choice is within a range of +-2-3% DPS. Player skill, meaning keeping up the rotation and weaving properly, will make a much bigger difference than gear. The gear choice only determines the upper limit for a perfect playstyle.
OP asked what staff would suit a NB best and thats dual inferno in general with some exceptions, like some of the ones you mentioned. You say vMOL is the only place where it matters? In every other trial you will go for maximum single target DPS and just let the adds die and it does not matter if they live for a few more seconds (and thats what we are talking about here). Timing ultimates well for add phases makes a way bigger difference than the weapon choice. But the solution for raids like vMOL is not to use a lightning staff, but to take a Sorc instead of a NB if you really want to go for the maximum cleave and single target dmg. Guess why there is no NB in the top 5 vMOL scores on PC EU and only a few in the lower ranks?
But even in the case you stick with a NB: If you take a look at the vMOL top score its maximum single target dmg (apart from Alcast using ritual of retribution on a templar, which is a DPS loss on a single target and a boost to AOE). Panthers get pulled and rooted, adds in the twin fight die with ultimates and the hulk just dies in the cleave dmg. You need to push for maximum single target dmg in order to skip some phases like having to send runners for the 2nd time in vMOL HM, or skipping the split phase in Sanctum HM. You only need to have more cleave dmg if your tanks/healers can't handle the adds for a little bit longer.
On the other hand, when you really want single adds like the hulk or the little mages in vAA HM to die as fast as possible, dual inferno will still kill them faster, but you might loose a bit DPS on the boss. This is also the case for most trash fights: There is one add that gets focused because it has to die asap or has the most health and the rest will die anyways and/or does not matter.
Which is basically exactly my point. Only top vmol groups can pull that off. In most cases aoe will matter.
p.s. Here we are talking about that one gear choice that is worth up to 8% damage depending on the time on each bar.
And you are forgetting one simple thing. When NB switches to the back bar to reapply Path and Trap or Rune or whatever and cast a destro ulti, what single target skills are doing any considerable damage at that point? Only Crippling Grasp. Top 3 DPS sources that can also do damage while on the back bar are all AoE. Everything single-target is on the front bar and there's only one single target DOT that is used.
I guess you can calculate what's better 8% to CG or 8% to blockade, path, grothdarr/illambris and destro ulti. taking into account the time spent on the back bar, if you want to answer this question strictly. But I'm pretty sure it's obvious which one will result in more damage. There's nothing doing single target damage when NB is on the back bar, so why use inferno there? Oh, maybe AW? But again, it's not that of the % of the total DPS + arguably it's a dps loss in groups.
Why even argue? Do a dps test with Fire-Fire and Fire-Lightning and check. Maybe I'll have time later this week to do it too. But so far the theory is strongly for Fire-Lightning over Fire-Fire. But of course, in the end - the experiment is the king and can prove me wrong. So far I'm not convinced that 8% to crippling grasp and maybe AW is better than 8% to path, blockade, grothdar/illambris, destro ulti and maybe rune.
Notice, that right now I'm talking about single target DPS only, no adds. On a single target parse, aoe skills make up for higher percentage of the DPS than single target skills that deal damage on the back bar.
Adds add even more to it.
I was talking about the front bar all the time considering a 8 sec backbar rotation with wall and CG on the backbar, since it allows to keep trap and path up perfectly and you have one destro skill on every bar even if you play with soul harvest and meteor. Then there is not choice but to run fire on the back and fire on the front, since the single target abilities deal way more dmg than AOE abilites.
The other setup would be purely ranged with Ilambris instead of Grothdarr, wall and CG on frontbar, lightning backbar with destructive touch and path. I you want to play melee with Grothdarr and trap you will loose the possibility to play with meteor, since you need to have a syphoning and a destro ability on your bar.
For the frontbar the choice is clearly inferno, since 60% of the NB DPS is single target dmg. The choice for the backbar depends on your bar setups. You get the most flexibility for a dual inferno setup with swallow soul on frontbar and CG on backbar. A setup with lighning backbar will completely determine your bars, leaving you without flex spot, thanks to the requirements for the destro and syphoning passive. In the case you want to run a shield you need to drop a kill (most likely trap or destructive touch) and run destro ulti on the backbar.
Sure you get some extra dmg with a lightning backbar but lets calculate it just for the fun:Numers taken from video below: AOE: 40,20% DPS CG: (9,7/1,08)% DPS = 8,98% DPS (divided by 1,08 to since dual inferno setup was used) Assuming 3/12 sec on the backbar we get: Dual inferno: 8,98%*1,08 + 40,20% = 49,9% DPS Inferno/Lightning: 3/12*(40,20%*1,08+8,98%) + 9/12*49,9% = 50,5% DPS Thats a 0,62% DPS difference, or 250 DPS at 40k.
Calculations for lightning vs inferno frontbarNumers taken from video below: AOE: 40,20% DPS Single Target: (59,80/1,08)% DPS = 55,37% DPS Assuming 3/12 sec on the backbar we get: Dual inferno: 100% DPS Lightning/Inferno: 9/12*(40,20%*1,08+55,37%) + 3/12*100% = 99,09% DPS Thats a whooping 0,91% DPS difference, or 364 DPS at 40k.
So we are back to what I said earlier: all setups are within a range of +-2% DPS, in this case even within a 1% range, pretty far away from the maximum difference of 8%.
Numers source (no destro skill on backbar):
https://youtu.be/Hp0m5n3Q_XA?t=50m22s
Ilambris ranged setup with Inferno/Lightning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVjxBZmx7dk&t
Eh? Why would you use swallow soul at all? And yes you can have siphoning and destro ability on your back bar. If you want to slot a shield - you can drop Inner Light and put siphoning attacks leaving your dots intact. Having a fire staff there won't let you get rid of this choice anyway. Also, shooting star's initial hit is the only portion of it that benefits from a fire staff. Destro ulti is stronger. And it's AoE. I mean, I'm an average player and I'm hitting pretty much the same DPS on a dummy using a Rank I Lightning ulti with a breton race as a top NB NA (or one of) playing his dunmer. If he had a lightning staff so he could use that ulti, who knows what the numbers would be.
Not quite sure what those videos were supposed to prove, the one about DPS in depth explicitly says that Lightning staff would be optimal, but he doesn't have it yet. Not to mention that they are 2 different videos by 2 different players and don't really answer my question = comparison between fire/fire and fire/light. Do you play a NB yourself? Why don't you check it yourself and compare? Calculations mean nothing if the experiment doesn't confirm them.
Also, did I read it right? So you do admit that lightning back bar results in more DPS and that was the main question, so what are you arguing with?