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Magicka DPS: Lightning Staff vs Inferno Staff?

  • Artis
    Artis
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    GilGalad wrote: »

    The first video was just to get some numbers from the combat metrics log. It does not matter what staff he uses on the backbar since he has no destro ability there, for whatever reason.
    Maybe there was missunderstanding concerning my statements regarding the staff types. I was always talking about the front bar, which has to be inferno on a NB. The backbar is not soo relevant because the difference is small as showed above (numbers taken are actualy more in favor of lightning since I assumed there was a destro ability on the backbar, which was not the case). Yes lightning backbar will be stronger but the difference is in the order of 3 missed light attacks. But with lightning backbar you have to run blockade and force pulse on your frontbar, therefore you need an additional destro ability on the backbar, that is usually not part of the rotation.
    One could argue if destro ultimate is really stronger than meteor. For a single cast it surely is, but if you consider the much lower cost of meteor and especially shooting star when hitting some adds, meteor will pull ahead in terms of single target dmg in longer fights. Since the adds usually die to the cleave dmg anyways you want to go for the highest single target dmg possible in order to kill the boss as fast as possible.

    I think we can agree on the conclusion, that NB needs to have an inferno staff on the front bar. What staff has to be on the backbar depends mostly on the prefered skill layout and content, while lightning staffs are slightly better in terms of pure DPS.
    Are you fine with that?

    The reason why I don't test all this stuff is, that i simply don't have the time to do it and the difference is so small that you probably won't even see it due to the deviations in critical hits, minor vulnerability uptimes, etc. The theoretical difference is equivalent to 3 missed light attacks or 3 more crits on light attacks. One would have to do like 50 tests each in order to derive the mean DPS from the resulting normal (Gaussian) distributions.

    Alternatively we could kindly ask @Asayre if he wants to simulate the same setups with Dual Inferno and Inferno/lightning (BSW, Grothdarr, Moondancer, MSA Front). Just the standard rotation with blockade, cripple, trap, path, meteor, Force Pulse, Impale and assasins will (not shot if too complicated to implement, the difference between 2 Force Pulse and 1 assasins will is really small anyways). Destructive touch will lead to bigger differences in minor vulnerability uptimes, therefore we should exclude it from the test, since it is 100% up in raids anyways. Assume there is a syphoning and destruction staff ability on each bar.
    No need to be so defensive, I'm not trying to attack you or anything like that, I'm just disagreeing. And yes, indeed, it looks like there was a misunderstanding. I was talking about the back bar this whole time because you mentioned that dual inferno would be the best. There's no point in arguing about front bar - of course you want a fire staff there if you have your single target spammable and execute spammable there.

    The back bar is not irrelevant, it procs Illambris and gives more uptime to concussion + when you are on your back bar most of the DOT damage is aoe. Not so sure about Shooting star vs destro ulti. In my experience destro ulti is better in most cases. I will keep trying to switch them every now and then if I get a chance, but yeah so far looks like destro is better. And that destro ulti on the lightning back bar gives you a destro ability on that bar.

    And again, let' me remind you - when you are on the back bar, most damage that is ticking during that time is AOE damage. So by having a lightning staff there you are increasing your damage (including the damage that a boss takes).

    There's no point in asking anyone to simulate it. It's much better to check it experimentally. And ideally - in the group setting as well. And yeah probably the difference won't be as large, who knows.

    p.s. It is interesting to see how many casts it takes for meteor to pull ahead of destro ulti, if it's possible at all.
    p.p.s Yes, adds die in cleave BUT for most groups it's better if they die faster. You really don't want them up on twins, for example, where adds cast things and black add usually aren't stacked all that tight and on the boss. And the radius of destro ulti is much better, too, btw.
  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
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    Artis wrote: »
    GilGalad wrote: »

    The first video was just to get some numbers from the combat metrics log. It does not matter what staff he uses on the backbar since he has no destro ability there, for whatever reason.
    Maybe there was missunderstanding concerning my statements regarding the staff types. I was always talking about the front bar, which has to be inferno on a NB. The backbar is not soo relevant because the difference is small as showed above (numbers taken are actualy more in favor of lightning since I assumed there was a destro ability on the backbar, which was not the case). Yes lightning backbar will be stronger but the difference is in the order of 3 missed light attacks. But with lightning backbar you have to run blockade and force pulse on your frontbar, therefore you need an additional destro ability on the backbar, that is usually not part of the rotation.
    One could argue if destro ultimate is really stronger than meteor. For a single cast it surely is, but if you consider the much lower cost of meteor and especially shooting star when hitting some adds, meteor will pull ahead in terms of single target dmg in longer fights. Since the adds usually die to the cleave dmg anyways you want to go for the highest single target dmg possible in order to kill the boss as fast as possible.

    I think we can agree on the conclusion, that NB needs to have an inferno staff on the front bar. What staff has to be on the backbar depends mostly on the prefered skill layout and content, while lightning staffs are slightly better in terms of pure DPS.
    Are you fine with that?

    The reason why I don't test all this stuff is, that i simply don't have the time to do it and the difference is so small that you probably won't even see it due to the deviations in critical hits, minor vulnerability uptimes, etc. The theoretical difference is equivalent to 3 missed light attacks or 3 more crits on light attacks. One would have to do like 50 tests each in order to derive the mean DPS from the resulting normal (Gaussian) distributions.

    Alternatively we could kindly ask @Asayre if he wants to simulate the same setups with Dual Inferno and Inferno/lightning (BSW, Grothdarr, Moondancer, MSA Front). Just the standard rotation with blockade, cripple, trap, path, meteor, Force Pulse, Impale and assasins will (not shot if too complicated to implement, the difference between 2 Force Pulse and 1 assasins will is really small anyways). Destructive touch will lead to bigger differences in minor vulnerability uptimes, therefore we should exclude it from the test, since it is 100% up in raids anyways. Assume there is a syphoning and destruction staff ability on each bar.
    No need to be so defensive, I'm not trying to attack you or anything like that, I'm just disagreeing. And yes, indeed, it looks like there was a misunderstanding. I was talking about the back bar this whole time because you mentioned that dual inferno would be the best. There's no point in arguing about front bar - of course you want a fire staff there if you have your single target spammable and execute spammable there.

    The back bar is not irrelevant, it procs Illambris and gives more uptime to concussion + when you are on your back bar most of the DOT damage is aoe. Not so sure about Shooting star vs destro ulti. In my experience destro ulti is better in most cases. I will keep trying to switch them every now and then if I get a chance, but yeah so far looks like destro is better. And that destro ulti on the lightning back bar gives you a destro ability on that bar.

    And again, let' me remind you - when you are on the back bar, most damage that is ticking during that time is AOE damage. So by having a lightning staff there you are increasing your damage (including the damage that a boss takes).

    There's no point in asking anyone to simulate it. It's much better to check it experimentally. And ideally - in the group setting as well. And yeah probably the difference won't be as large, who knows.

    p.s. It is interesting to see how many casts it takes for meteor to pull ahead of destro ulti, if it's possible at all.
    p.p.s Yes, adds die in cleave BUT for most groups it's better if they die faster. You really don't want them up on twins, for example, where adds cast things and black add usually aren't stacked all that tight and on the boss. And the radius of destro ulti is much better, too, btw.

    Ok so concerning the ultimates I made a spreadsheet, since as always the answer is "it depends"! :wink:
    Google-Spreadsheet

    For some Bossfights like the vMOL twins you want to have the bigger range of the destro ultimate to hit all adds, but for all fights where mostly single target dmg matters i did the following calculation:
    I calculated the ultimate reg including the syphoning and catalysator passive and assumed that the ultimated is used as soon as it is ready replacing a force pulse in the rotation. What remains is the dmg the ultimate adds to the standard rotation. I assumed that the whole dmg is done at the end of the DOT duration (11 secs for meteor, 9 secs for Thunderous Rage). I took the tooltip values from a Dunmer NB with the same gear, what gear does not matter since all 3 ultimates scale approx the same way even with the destro passives. A more precise way would be to take the average values from trial bossfights with the same group buffs, but I dont have the data. I assumed starting with an ultimate ready.

    Results:
    There are two factors that influence the results: Engulfing flames buffing Meteor and Fiery Rage, and the number of targets hit by Shooting Star (Meteor).
    • Without engulfing flames and only one target hit Thunderous Rage is always better (only calculated until 10 min fights)
    • Fiery Rage is not far ahead in the beginning and falls heavily behind after the 3rd meteor cast after 113 secs, even with only one target hit
    • With engulfing flames and one target hit Thunderous Rage is better for these times: 0s-61s , 76s-112s , 144s-163s. After the 3rd Meteor cast (112s), there is only a 20 secs window after the 3rd destro ult where it is better. After the 4th meteor it is always better.
    • The pattern from above gets more extreme if we assume two targets hit and engulfing flames. The 3rd meteor will hit after 106s and the window at 144s will be only 10 secs long.
    • With engulfing and 3 targets hit meteor will always be ahead after the 3rd cast (100s).

    If you want to you can make a copy of the spreadsheet and play around with it. The charts get a bit ugly with some extra lines, that can be ignored when using more than 1 target. Only the coloured area is relevant...
    Animals Unchained | PC EU
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  • Violynne
    Violynne
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    Turelus wrote: »
    I'm far from any expert on builds but from my understanding people use both.

    Main bar as a single target bar with Inferno Staff, slotting something from destro there (harder if your spam isn't Force Shock).

    Second bar is AoE spells with a lightning staff.
    Ding ding! Both is the correct answer. :wink:

    My mainbar is Lightning, for the AoE 8% buff between spellcasts and backbar Inferno for the knockback/CC for healing bursts.

    Though, this is PvE play. Once I start doing dungeons and PvP, I may need to rethink a few things.



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