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Magicka DPS: Lightning Staff vs Inferno Staff?

Illurian
Illurian
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Hey all,

So with the 2x exp going on, I've been trying to level my magblade up to cp. He would be my first magicka dps character, so i was wondering what would be more effective for vet dungeons? Lightning staves or inferno? I know the lightning staves give an extra 8% dps to aoe abilites, and with Blockade we also have the chance to concuss enemies, adding even more damage, but healers usually run Lightning Blockade. Inferno staves, on the other hand, give more single target damage.

I'm assuming Inferno is the way to go, but I'm just not sure!

Thanks in advance for any advice!
Kiss the chaos.
  • Turelus
    Turelus
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    I'm far from any expert on builds but from my understanding people use both.

    Main bar as a single target bar with Inferno Staff, slotting something from destro there (harder if your spam isn't Force Shock).

    Second bar is AoE spells with a lightning staff.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
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  • Illurian
    Illurian
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    Turelus wrote: »
    I'm far from any expert on builds but from my understanding people use both.

    Main bar as a single target bar with Inferno Staff, slotting something from destro there (harder if your spam isn't Force Shock).

    Second bar is AoE spells with a lightning staff.

    Ah! Of course. So I'm assuming Elemental Blockade goes on the lightning staff bar? Does the 8% damage increase passive still hold its effect after I swap to inferno staff?
    Kiss the chaos.
  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
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    It depends on the ratio of your Single target to AOE dmg. Roughly you can say that if you have more than 50% AOE dmg a lightning staff on your Frontbar makes more sense. For Magblades Dual Inferno should be the way to go since only blockade and path count as AOE and they together won't make more than 50% of your DPS.
    You basically always want to play with the fire blockade, because it deals 20% more dmg against burning targets and your targets will be burning most of the time if you play with burning spellweave. You might consider using a lightning staff for AOE situations to boost your sap essence, but for Single target Dual Inferno will be best.

    For other classes:
    DK: Dual Inferno
    Sorc: Lightning/Inferno (with pet), Dual Inferno without pet
    Templar: dual wield/Inferno or lightning/Inferno
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  • Tyrion87
    Tyrion87
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    Illurian wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    I'm far from any expert on builds but from my understanding people use both.

    Main bar as a single target bar with Inferno Staff, slotting something from destro there (harder if your spam isn't Force Shock).

    Second bar is AoE spells with a lightning staff.

    Ah! Of course. So I'm assuming Elemental Blockade goes on the lightning staff bar? Does the 8% damage increase passive still hold its effect after I swap to inferno staff?

    No, it doesn't. Thus most DDs use inferno on back bar (with elemental blockade on it), then swap to front bar with lighting staff so that all AoE's have their dmg increased. You have a bonus from the staff you are currently on. That's why sometimes it's good to replace lighting staff (front bar) with the second inferno for increased single target dmg on boss fights with few adds around.
    Edited by Tyrion87 on March 30, 2017 10:32AM
  • FrancisCrawford
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    If the magblade's healing is actually needed, do the answers change any? (The point, of course, is that magblade healing generally scales off of damage done.)
  • Illurian
    Illurian
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    Thank you all for your responses! I've got a better idea on what route I should be on now. Thanks!
    Kiss the chaos.
  • Illurian
    Illurian
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    GilGalad wrote: »
    It depends on the ratio of your Single target to AOE dmg. Roughly you can say that if you have more than 50% AOE dmg a lightning staff on your Frontbar makes more sense. For Magblades Dual Inferno should be the way to go since only blockade and path count as AOE and they together won't make more than 50% of your DPS.
    You basically always want to play with the fire blockade, because it deals 20% more dmg against burning targets and your targets will be burning most of the time if you play with burning spellweave. You might consider using a lightning staff for AOE situations to boost your sap essence, but for Single target Dual Inferno will be best.

    For other classes:
    DK: Dual Inferno
    Sorc: Lightning/Inferno (with pet), Dual Inferno without pet
    Templar: dual wield/Inferno or lightning/Inferno

    Does this change if I don't have BSW yet? I'm planning on having my magblade in 5 x Julianos, 3 x Willpower, 1 x Molag Kena and 2 x Torug's while farming up BSW/Scathing Mage.
    Kiss the chaos.
  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
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    Illurian wrote: »
    GilGalad wrote: »
    It depends on the ratio of your Single target to AOE dmg. Roughly you can say that if you have more than 50% AOE dmg a lightning staff on your Frontbar makes more sense. For Magblades Dual Inferno should be the way to go since only blockade and path count as AOE and they together won't make more than 50% of your DPS.
    You basically always want to play with the fire blockade, because it deals 20% more dmg against burning targets and your targets will be burning most of the time if you play with burning spellweave. You might consider using a lightning staff for AOE situations to boost your sap essence, but for Single target Dual Inferno will be best.

    For other classes:
    DK: Dual Inferno
    Sorc: Lightning/Inferno (with pet), Dual Inferno without pet
    Templar: dual wield/Inferno or lightning/Inferno

    Does this change if I don't have BSW yet? I'm planning on having my magblade in 5 x Julianos, 3 x Willpower, 1 x Molag Kena and 2 x Torug's while farming up BSW/Scathing Mage.

    The abilities all scale roughly the same, therefore this does not change. Julianos and BSW are pretty similar, with BSW providing a little more dmg.
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  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
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    Illurian wrote: »
    GilGalad wrote: »
    It depends on the ratio of your Single target to AOE dmg. Roughly you can say that if you have more than 50% AOE dmg a lightning staff on your Frontbar makes more sense. For Magblades Dual Inferno should be the way to go since only blockade and path count as AOE and they together won't make more than 50% of your DPS.
    You basically always want to play with the fire blockade, because it deals 20% more dmg against burning targets and your targets will be burning most of the time if you play with burning spellweave. You might consider using a lightning staff for AOE situations to boost your sap essence, but for Single target Dual Inferno will be best.

    For other classes:
    DK: Dual Inferno
    Sorc: Lightning/Inferno (with pet), Dual Inferno without pet
    Templar: dual wield/Inferno or lightning/Inferno

    Does this change if I don't have BSW yet? I'm planning on having my magblade in 5 x Julianos, 3 x Willpower, 1 x Molag Kena and 2 x Torug's while farming up BSW/Scathing Mage.

    Don't underestimate the splash damage from lightning staves courtesy of the first passive, Tri Focus. This, too, count as AoE. (Once you hit the CP level, points in Thaumaturge will actually cause the splash to hit harder than the main attack.)

    Also, once BSW is proc'd (once you have it), it's proc'd. Switching over to lightning heavies (after the proc) in trash pulls can melt stuff.

    Lightning is also easier for targeting when you are starting out, as it will seek out the target and follow it. No reflected projectiles, no tab-target required.

    What you have to bear in mind is the above %'s will be based on your current setup. Adding Lightning to the mix will increase the % of AoE in your parse.

    So, my personal best answer is: Both. One extra staff only takes up one spot in your inventory and can be switched out as needed. See which setup gives you the best numbers in a given scenario, and use that setup in that scenario.
    Edited by Merlin13KAGL on March 30, 2017 11:53AM
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

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  • Artis
    Artis
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    GilGalad wrote: »
    It depends on the ratio of your Single target to AOE dmg. Roughly you can say that if you have more than 50% AOE dmg a lightning staff on your Frontbar makes more sense. For Magblades Dual Inferno should be the way to go since only blockade and path count as AOE and they together won't make more than 50% of your DPS.
    You basically always want to play with the fire blockade, because it deals 20% more dmg against burning targets and your targets will be burning most of the time if you play with burning spellweave. You might consider using a lightning staff for AOE situations to boost your sap essence, but for Single target Dual Inferno will be best.

    For other classes:
    DK: Dual Inferno
    Sorc: Lightning/Inferno (with pet), Dual Inferno without pet
    Templar: dual wield/Inferno or lightning/Inferno

    Blockade + Destro Ulti + Path+Illambri's/Grothdarr is about 40% of your DPS on a single target. With adds it will be even more. Not at all sure it's not worth it to run Lightning on one of the bars. Not to mention, that Lightning gives access to Lightning destro ulti which is better than Fire and boosts Illambri's/Grothdarr.
  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
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    Artis wrote: »
    GilGalad wrote: »
    It depends on the ratio of your Single target to AOE dmg. Roughly you can say that if you have more than 50% AOE dmg a lightning staff on your Frontbar makes more sense. For Magblades Dual Inferno should be the way to go since only blockade and path count as AOE and they together won't make more than 50% of your DPS.
    You basically always want to play with the fire blockade, because it deals 20% more dmg against burning targets and your targets will be burning most of the time if you play with burning spellweave. You might consider using a lightning staff for AOE situations to boost your sap essence, but for Single target Dual Inferno will be best.

    For other classes:
    DK: Dual Inferno
    Sorc: Lightning/Inferno (with pet), Dual Inferno without pet
    Templar: dual wield/Inferno or lightning/Inferno

    Blockade + Destro Ulti + Path+Illambri's/Grothdarr is about 40% of your DPS on a single target. With adds it will be even more. Not at all sure it's not worth it to run Lightning on one of the bars. Not to mention, that Lightning gives access to Lightning destro ulti which is better than Fire and boosts Illambri's/Grothdarr.

    While it is true that the dmg on adds might increase, it is irrelevant in most cases. The choice you have to make is, if you want to have more single target or more aoe dmg. Most fights end when the boss dies, no matter how much dmg was done against the adds, therefore a lightning staff might bring higher DPS because your splash dmg is higher, but the fight will take longer than with an inferno staff on your frontbar. There are only very few fights where it is really relevant to focus on adds and a lightning staff will become the better weapon.

    For AOE situations lightning will cleary win over inferno staffs, so one should have a lightning staff as backup for AOE intense dungeons/trials.
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  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
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    GilGalad wrote: »
    Artis wrote: »
    GilGalad wrote: »
    It depends on the ratio of your Single target to AOE dmg. Roughly you can say that if you have more than 50% AOE dmg a lightning staff on your Frontbar makes more sense. For Magblades Dual Inferno should be the way to go since only blockade and path count as AOE and they together won't make more than 50% of your DPS.
    You basically always want to play with the fire blockade, because it deals 20% more dmg against burning targets and your targets will be burning most of the time if you play with burning spellweave. You might consider using a lightning staff for AOE situations to boost your sap essence, but for Single target Dual Inferno will be best.

    For other classes:
    DK: Dual Inferno
    Sorc: Lightning/Inferno (with pet), Dual Inferno without pet
    Templar: dual wield/Inferno or lightning/Inferno

    Blockade + Destro Ulti + Path+Illambri's/Grothdarr is about 40% of your DPS on a single target. With adds it will be even more. Not at all sure it's not worth it to run Lightning on one of the bars. Not to mention, that Lightning gives access to Lightning destro ulti which is better than Fire and boosts Illambri's/Grothdarr.

    While it is true that the dmg on adds might increase, it is irrelevant in most cases. The choice you have to make is, if you want to have more single target or more aoe dmg. Most fights end when the boss dies, no matter how much dmg was done against the adds, therefore a lightning staff might bring higher DPS because your splash dmg is higher, but the fight will take longer than with an inferno staff on your frontbar. There are only very few fights where it is really relevant to focus on adds and a lightning staff will become the better weapon.

    For AOE situations lightning will cleary win over inferno staffs, so one should have a lightning staff as backup for AOE intense dungeons/trials.

    Except you don't have to choose - you can have one on each bar. You can also swap gear before the pull.

    One extra staff and you can go Inferno/Inferno or Inferno/Lightning with a single gear swap. Always better to have options.
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

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  • darthsithis
    darthsithis
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    EACH tick of the channeled lightning staff heavy attack gets the wall of elements bonus applied from the vma staff enchant. So with all passives, heavy attacking is just as short as with fire staff, but gets the maelstrom buff like 5x. This combined with sorcs having lightning damage boosts, slotting mostly sorc skills (like in a pet build), and the superior ulti makes for an intensely powerful setup. Plus with 75 points into thaumaturge, you get a nice bonus that amplifies the whole lightning-themed sorc even more.

    Of course the aoe is great but with a volatile familiar and all the lightning spells/woe, bosses melt unbelievably fast.
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  • darthsithis
    darthsithis
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    Here, watch the crematorial guard melt. Sorry for the average quality and random grunting sounds I made lol.

    Message me if you want to do trials/dungeons, or need a trading guild! Flawless conqueror magsorc with a bad sense of armor fashion.
  • Artis
    Artis
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    GilGalad wrote: »

    While it is true that the dmg on adds might increase, it is irrelevant in most cases. The choice you have to make is, if you want to have more single target or more aoe dmg. Most fights end when the boss dies, no matter how much dmg was done against the adds, therefore a lightning staff might bring higher DPS because your splash dmg is higher, but the fight will take longer than with an inferno staff on your frontbar. There are only very few fights where it is really relevant to focus on adds and a lightning staff will become the better weapon.

    For AOE situations lightning will cleary win over inferno staffs, so one should have a lightning staff as backup for AOE intense dungeons/trials.

    In what most cases is it irrelevant? Are you minmaxing for Angof?

    In most cases it's irrelevant what you are using at all. In cases that matter - like VMOL or vrom/vcos, you will always have adds and you can't just ignore them, too.. For example, Hulk must die to cleave and must die fast enough, cats should die asap, adds on twins should die asap. Ignoring AOE is not a way to go. I honestly don't understand how you can be raiding end-game and say that, when all vmol fights require AOE. Or seriously, what are those most cases where the build matters at all?

    I didn't get your point, I guess.
  • EldritchPenguin
    EldritchPenguin
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    Illurian wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    I'm far from any expert on builds but from my understanding people use both.

    Main bar as a single target bar with Inferno Staff, slotting something from destro there (harder if your spam isn't Force Shock).

    Second bar is AoE spells with a lightning staff.

    Ah! Of course. So I'm assuming Elemental Blockade goes on the lightning staff bar? Does the 8% damage increase passive still hold its effect after I swap to inferno staff?
    Fire Blockade is stronger than Lightning Blockade if there's already a source of Minor Vulnerability in your group. 20% more damage on the Blockade against Burning enemies is too good to pass up, especially if you're running Burning Spellweave.

    The Ancient Knowledge passive applies to the bar you are currently using. So if you cast Fire Blockade and then swapped to a Lightning staff, it would benefit from the 8% boost.
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  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
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    Artis wrote: »
    GilGalad wrote: »

    While it is true that the dmg on adds might increase, it is irrelevant in most cases. The choice you have to make is, if you want to have more single target or more aoe dmg. Most fights end when the boss dies, no matter how much dmg was done against the adds, therefore a lightning staff might bring higher DPS because your splash dmg is higher, but the fight will take longer than with an inferno staff on your frontbar. There are only very few fights where it is really relevant to focus on adds and a lightning staff will become the better weapon.

    For AOE situations lightning will cleary win over inferno staffs, so one should have a lightning staff as backup for AOE intense dungeons/trials.

    In what most cases is it irrelevant? Are you minmaxing for Angof?

    In most cases it's irrelevant what you are using at all. In cases that matter - like VMOL or vrom/vcos, you will always have adds and you can't just ignore them, too.. For example, Hulk must die to cleave and must die fast enough, cats should die asap, adds on twins should die asap. Ignoring AOE is not a way to go. I honestly don't understand how you can be raiding end-game and say that, when all vmol fights require AOE. Or seriously, what are those most cases where the build matters at all?

    I didn't get your point, I guess.

    First of all everything you can do in terms of gear choice is within a range of +-2-3% DPS. Player skill, meaning keeping up the rotation and weaving properly, will make a much bigger difference than gear. The gear choice only determines the upper limit for a perfect playstyle.

    OP asked what staff would suit a NB best and thats dual inferno in general with some exceptions, like some of the ones you mentioned. You say vMOL is the only place where it matters? In every other trial you will go for maximum single target DPS and just let the adds die and it does not matter if they live for a few more seconds (and thats what we are talking about here). Timing ultimates well for add phases makes a way bigger difference than the weapon choice. But the solution for raids like vMOL is not to use a lightning staff, but to take a Sorc instead of a NB if you really want to go for the maximum cleave and single target dmg. Guess why there is no NB in the top 5 vMOL scores on PC EU and only a few in the lower ranks?
    But even in the case you stick with a NB: If you take a look at the vMOL top score its maximum single target dmg (apart from Alcast using ritual of retribution on a templar, which is a DPS loss on a single target and a boost to AOE). Panthers get pulled and rooted, adds in the twin fight die with ultimates and the hulk just dies in the cleave dmg. You need to push for maximum single target dmg in order to skip some phases like having to send runners for the 2nd time in vMOL HM, or skipping the split phase in Sanctum HM. You only need to have more cleave dmg if your tanks/healers can't handle the adds for a little bit longer.

    On the other hand, when you really want single adds like the hulk or the little mages in vAA HM to die as fast as possible, dual inferno will still kill them faster, but you might loose a bit DPS on the boss. This is also the case for most trash fights: There is one add that gets focused because it has to die asap or has the most health and the rest will die anyways and/or does not matter.

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  • Artis
    Artis
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    GilGalad wrote: »
    Artis wrote: »
    GilGalad wrote: »

    While it is true that the dmg on adds might increase, it is irrelevant in most cases. The choice you have to make is, if you want to have more single target or more aoe dmg. Most fights end when the boss dies, no matter how much dmg was done against the adds, therefore a lightning staff might bring higher DPS because your splash dmg is higher, but the fight will take longer than with an inferno staff on your frontbar. There are only very few fights where it is really relevant to focus on adds and a lightning staff will become the better weapon.

    For AOE situations lightning will cleary win over inferno staffs, so one should have a lightning staff as backup for AOE intense dungeons/trials.

    In what most cases is it irrelevant? Are you minmaxing for Angof?

    In most cases it's irrelevant what you are using at all. In cases that matter - like VMOL or vrom/vcos, you will always have adds and you can't just ignore them, too.. For example, Hulk must die to cleave and must die fast enough, cats should die asap, adds on twins should die asap. Ignoring AOE is not a way to go. I honestly don't understand how you can be raiding end-game and say that, when all vmol fights require AOE. Or seriously, what are those most cases where the build matters at all?

    I didn't get your point, I guess.

    First of all everything you can do in terms of gear choice is within a range of +-2-3% DPS. Player skill, meaning keeping up the rotation and weaving properly, will make a much bigger difference than gear. The gear choice only determines the upper limit for a perfect playstyle.

    OP asked what staff would suit a NB best and thats dual inferno in general with some exceptions, like some of the ones you mentioned. You say vMOL is the only place where it matters? In every other trial you will go for maximum single target DPS and just let the adds die and it does not matter if they live for a few more seconds (and thats what we are talking about here). Timing ultimates well for add phases makes a way bigger difference than the weapon choice. But the solution for raids like vMOL is not to use a lightning staff, but to take a Sorc instead of a NB if you really want to go for the maximum cleave and single target dmg. Guess why there is no NB in the top 5 vMOL scores on PC EU and only a few in the lower ranks?
    But even in the case you stick with a NB: If you take a look at the vMOL top score its maximum single target dmg (apart from Alcast using ritual of retribution on a templar, which is a DPS loss on a single target and a boost to AOE). Panthers get pulled and rooted, adds in the twin fight die with ultimates and the hulk just dies in the cleave dmg. You need to push for maximum single target dmg in order to skip some phases like having to send runners for the 2nd time in vMOL HM, or skipping the split phase in Sanctum HM. You only need to have more cleave dmg if your tanks/healers can't handle the adds for a little bit longer.

    On the other hand, when you really want single adds like the hulk or the little mages in vAA HM to die as fast as possible, dual inferno will still kill them faster, but you might loose a bit DPS on the boss. This is also the case for most trash fights: There is one add that gets focused because it has to die asap or has the most health and the rest will die anyways and/or does not matter.

    Which is basically exactly my point. Only top vmol groups can pull that off. In most cases aoe will matter.

    p.s. Here we are talking about that one gear choice that is worth up to 8% damage depending on the time on each bar.
    And you are forgetting one simple thing. When NB switches to the back bar to reapply Path and Trap or Rune or whatever and cast a destro ulti, what single target skills are doing any considerable damage at that point? Only Crippling Grasp. Top 3 DPS sources that can also do damage while on the back bar are all AoE. Everything single-target is on the front bar and there's only one single target DOT that is used.

    I guess you can calculate what's better 8% to CG or 8% to blockade, path, grothdarr/illambris and destro ulti. taking into account the time spent on the back bar, if you want to answer this question strictly. But I'm pretty sure it's obvious which one will result in more damage. There's nothing doing single target damage when NB is on the back bar, so why use inferno there? Oh, maybe AW? But again, it's not that of the % of the total DPS + arguably it's a dps loss in groups.

    Why even argue? Do a dps test with Fire-Fire and Fire-Lightning and check. Maybe I'll have time later this week to do it too. But so far the theory is strongly for Fire-Lightning over Fire-Fire. But of course, in the end - the experiment is the king and can prove me wrong. So far I'm not convinced that 8% to crippling grasp and maybe AW is better than 8% to path, blockade, grothdar/illambris, destro ulti and maybe rune.


    Notice, that right now I'm talking about single target DPS only, no adds. On a single target parse, aoe skills make up for higher percentage of the DPS than single target skills that deal damage on the back bar.

    Adds add even more to it.
    Edited by Artis on March 30, 2017 5:01PM
  • WuffyCerulei
    WuffyCerulei
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    I run a 5 Julianos/4 Infallible Aether/2 Illambris build on my sorc with inferno on my front bar (single target) and lightning on my back bar (AoEs). With Elemental Blockade, Liquid Lightning, and heavy attacks, mobs melt rather quickly.
    Touch my sorc, and I'll have an arrow for that knee of yours.

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  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
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    Artis wrote: »
    GilGalad wrote: »
    Artis wrote: »
    GilGalad wrote: »

    While it is true that the dmg on adds might increase, it is irrelevant in most cases. The choice you have to make is, if you want to have more single target or more aoe dmg. Most fights end when the boss dies, no matter how much dmg was done against the adds, therefore a lightning staff might bring higher DPS because your splash dmg is higher, but the fight will take longer than with an inferno staff on your frontbar. There are only very few fights where it is really relevant to focus on adds and a lightning staff will become the better weapon.

    For AOE situations lightning will cleary win over inferno staffs, so one should have a lightning staff as backup for AOE intense dungeons/trials.

    In what most cases is it irrelevant? Are you minmaxing for Angof?

    In most cases it's irrelevant what you are using at all. In cases that matter - like VMOL or vrom/vcos, you will always have adds and you can't just ignore them, too.. For example, Hulk must die to cleave and must die fast enough, cats should die asap, adds on twins should die asap. Ignoring AOE is not a way to go. I honestly don't understand how you can be raiding end-game and say that, when all vmol fights require AOE. Or seriously, what are those most cases where the build matters at all?

    I didn't get your point, I guess.

    First of all everything you can do in terms of gear choice is within a range of +-2-3% DPS. Player skill, meaning keeping up the rotation and weaving properly, will make a much bigger difference than gear. The gear choice only determines the upper limit for a perfect playstyle.

    OP asked what staff would suit a NB best and thats dual inferno in general with some exceptions, like some of the ones you mentioned. You say vMOL is the only place where it matters? In every other trial you will go for maximum single target DPS and just let the adds die and it does not matter if they live for a few more seconds (and thats what we are talking about here). Timing ultimates well for add phases makes a way bigger difference than the weapon choice. But the solution for raids like vMOL is not to use a lightning staff, but to take a Sorc instead of a NB if you really want to go for the maximum cleave and single target dmg. Guess why there is no NB in the top 5 vMOL scores on PC EU and only a few in the lower ranks?
    But even in the case you stick with a NB: If you take a look at the vMOL top score its maximum single target dmg (apart from Alcast using ritual of retribution on a templar, which is a DPS loss on a single target and a boost to AOE). Panthers get pulled and rooted, adds in the twin fight die with ultimates and the hulk just dies in the cleave dmg. You need to push for maximum single target dmg in order to skip some phases like having to send runners for the 2nd time in vMOL HM, or skipping the split phase in Sanctum HM. You only need to have more cleave dmg if your tanks/healers can't handle the adds for a little bit longer.

    On the other hand, when you really want single adds like the hulk or the little mages in vAA HM to die as fast as possible, dual inferno will still kill them faster, but you might loose a bit DPS on the boss. This is also the case for most trash fights: There is one add that gets focused because it has to die asap or has the most health and the rest will die anyways and/or does not matter.

    Which is basically exactly my point. Only top vmol groups can pull that off. In most cases aoe will matter.

    p.s. Here we are talking about that one gear choice that is worth up to 8% damage depending on the time on each bar.
    And you are forgetting one simple thing. When NB switches to the back bar to reapply Path and Trap or Rune or whatever and cast a destro ulti, what single target skills are doing any considerable damage at that point? Only Crippling Grasp. Top 3 DPS sources that can also do damage while on the back bar are all AoE. Everything single-target is on the front bar and there's only one single target DOT that is used.

    I guess you can calculate what's better 8% to CG or 8% to blockade, path, grothdarr/illambris and destro ulti. taking into account the time spent on the back bar, if you want to answer this question strictly. But I'm pretty sure it's obvious which one will result in more damage. There's nothing doing single target damage when NB is on the back bar, so why use inferno there? Oh, maybe AW? But again, it's not that of the % of the total DPS + arguably it's a dps loss in groups.

    Why even argue? Do a dps test with Fire-Fire and Fire-Lightning and check. Maybe I'll have time later this week to do it too. But so far the theory is strongly for Fire-Lightning over Fire-Fire. But of course, in the end - the experiment is the king and can prove me wrong. So far I'm not convinced that 8% to crippling grasp and maybe AW is better than 8% to path, blockade, grothdar/illambris, destro ulti and maybe rune.


    Notice, that right now I'm talking about single target DPS only, no adds. On a single target parse, aoe skills make up for higher percentage of the DPS than single target skills that deal damage on the back bar.

    Adds add even more to it.

    I was talking about the front bar all the time considering a 8 sec backbar rotation with wall and CG on the backbar, since it allows to keep trap and path up perfectly and you have one destro skill on every bar even if you play with soul harvest and meteor. Then there is not choice but to run fire on the back and fire on the front, since the single target abilities deal way more dmg than AOE abilites.
    The other setup would be purely ranged with Ilambris instead of Grothdarr, wall and CG on frontbar, lightning backbar with destructive touch and path. I you want to play melee with Grothdarr and trap you will loose the possibility to play with meteor, since you need to have a syphoning and a destro ability on your bar.

    For the frontbar the choice is clearly inferno, since 60% of the NB DPS is single target dmg. The choice for the backbar depends on your bar setups. You get the most flexibility for a dual inferno setup with swallow soul on frontbar and CG on backbar. A setup with lighning backbar will completely determine your bars, leaving you without flex spot, thanks to the requirements for the destro and syphoning passive. In the case you want to run a shield you need to drop a kill (most likely trap or destructive touch) and run destro ulti on the backbar.

    Sure you get some extra dmg with a lightning backbar but lets calculate it just for the fun:
    Numers taken from video below:
    AOE: 40,20% DPS
    CG: (9,7/1,08)% DPS = 8,98% DPS (divided by 1,08 to since dual inferno setup was used)
    Assuming 3/12 sec on the backbar we get:
    Dual inferno: 8,98%*1,08 + 40,20% = 49,9% DPS
    Inferno/Lightning: 3/12*(40,20%*1,08+8,98%) + 9/12*49,9% = 50,5% DPS
    Thats a 0,62% DPS difference, or 250 DPS at 40k. 
    

    Calculations for lightning vs inferno frontbar
    Numers taken from video below:
    AOE: 40,20% DPS
    Single Target: (59,80/1,08)% DPS = 55,37% DPS
    Assuming 3/12 sec on the backbar we get:
    Dual inferno: 100% DPS
    Lightning/Inferno: 9/12*(40,20%*1,08+55,37%) + 3/12*100% = 99,09% DPS
    Thats a whooping 0,91% DPS difference, or 364 DPS at 40k. 
    

    So we are back to what I said earlier: all setups are within a range of +-2% DPS, in this case even within a 1% range, pretty far away from the maximum difference of 8%.

    Numers source (no destro skill on backbar):


    Ilambris ranged setup with Inferno/Lightning:
    Animals Unchained | PC EU
    Homestead Theorycrafting
    Math of RNG
  • Illurian
    Illurian
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    Whew! That's a lot of information to digest, hahaha. Thanks again for your input, everyone!

    So from what I can tell, it's not really much of a difference (within a percentile) if I run Inferno/lightning or Inferno/Inferno?
    Kiss the chaos.
  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Illurian wrote: »
    Whew! That's a lot of information to digest, hahaha. Thanks again for your input, everyone!

    So from what I can tell, it's not really much of a difference (within a percentile) if I run Inferno/lightning or Inferno/Inferno?

    Yes the setups are pretty close and you can basically play whatever suits you best. The highest DPS will probably be a setup related to the 2nd video, but I would switch relentless focus and impale, so you get the extra 8% on the execute instead of the bow and take sap essence instead of syphoning attacks if you have a healer supporting your sustain. For dungeons that should work pretty well, for trials you have to see if you survive without a shield and if you die a lot you need to fit a shield in there.
    Animals Unchained | PC EU
    Homestead Theorycrafting
    Math of RNG
  • Lynx7386
    Lynx7386
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    Obviously a frost staff with heavy attack weaving, it's what all the dps are running now days >.>
    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
    Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
    Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
    Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
    Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    In most 4-man content and while leveling, lighting is frankly superior. It really has nothing to do with the AOE/Single Target math. It's because the heavy attack channel is ridiculous AOE DPS that costs you nothing. NBs are perhaps an exception to the rule because they have Sap Essence, which is a very strong AOE, but front barring a lightning staff really simplifies things. Sorcs and DKs are both going to go with a mixed staff build in most fights, and dual fire on trial boss fights. NBs at endgame, typically go Fire/fire.

    I really easy way to play NB for vet dungeons and that sort of thing:

    Lighting Staff: Force Pulse (or Funnel Health), Merciless, Killers blade, Inner Light, Harness Magic
    Fire Staff: Crippling Grasp, Blockade, Twisting Path, Inner light, Siphoning Attack

    This allows you to just put down back bar DOTS and channel your lighting staff in trash, and do a more traditional rotation on single target. It also gives room for a shield. If you want to go double fire, you just drop your shield and Trap for single target and Sap Essence for trash. Not saying this is BIS trials build, but it makes 4-man stuff a breeze.

    Edit: If the post had asked for the best EndGame DPS build for mNB, I would say fire/fire. Because you are talking about leveling during double XP week, Lightning staff has merit. Most of my toons carry both.
    Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on March 30, 2017 9:33PM
    Alliance/Platform: Ebonheart Pact - PC/NA - CP 1,300ish

    My Toons:
    DKs: Oreyn ßearclaw - Dunmer, Bear-m'Athra - Khajiit, Bearzilla - Argonian
    Sorcs: Beary Jane - AR44- Breton, Bearricane - Orc, Molag Bear - Altmer
    NBs: Bearclaw Oreyn - Dunmer, Bearblade - Bosmer, ßearblade - Dunmer (DC)
    Temps: Gandalf Likes To Party - Altmer, Bearplar - Orc, Bearamedic - Argonian
    Wardens: Warden Bearclaw - Altmer, Bear Jordan - Redguard, Bear's Hippie Girlfriend - Bosmer (DC)
    Necros: Bearomancer - Dunmer, ßearßones - Orc, Bearona Virus - Breton

    vSSHM, vCR+3, vAS+2, vHOFHM, vMOLHM, vSOHM, vHRCHM, vAAHM, vBRP, vDSA, Flawless Conqueror-All Classes, Spirit Slayer
  • Vildebill
    Vildebill
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    Seems like some of you are misunderstanding the concept. A lightning staff gives 8% more AoE damage when you are equipped with it, you don't have to apply your dots with the staff. You could apply all the dots you want with a sword and board, switch to the lightning bar and still get the 8% bonus. Because of that, don't run your lightning staff on the back bar just because you apply dots there. I don't play nightblade, but on sorc you would want to use a inferno on back bar, preferably a Maelstrom one, just because fire wall of elements deals far more damage since your enemy will most likely burn most of the time (especially since most of the DD:s nowadays use BSW and want the enemy to burn to proc it).

    The question is whether to run ligtning on your front bar. In AoE situations it's a no brainer, lightning is superior. Peoples minds seems to differ on single target though. I guess it depends on what skill you use, and in which situation. When I use pet, LL, blockade and curse (is curse classed as DoT or single target?) I tend to get higher numbers with a lightning staff. I can not always use the pet though, so inferno might be more optimal on certain bosses.

    Take your gear in account as well, in my case I got a BSW sharp lightning to front bar so I can use a fourth moondancer/IA as body instead (I don't have moondancer staves in sharpened). Probably better than a non-set staff.

    Pretty long post, but the conclusion is that this is very situational and might differ depending on what skills and rotation you use. Test it on a dummy and see what works best for you.
    EU PC
  • Illurian
    Illurian
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    A little unrelated question (I didn't want to make another thread for this), but should I be using Force Pulse or Funnel Health as my spammable? And should I be double slotting Inner Light?
    Edited by Illurian on March 31, 2017 9:55AM
    Kiss the chaos.
  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
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    Illurian wrote: »
    A little unrelated question (I didn't want to make another thread for this), but should I be using Force Pulse or Funnel Health as my spammable? And should I be double slotting Inner Light?

    Definitely double slot inner light. Force Pulse will deal slightly more dmg, procs Ilambris if you are using it and will give you slightly better uptimes for BSW. Funnel gives you some self healing and ultimate gain. Both can work well but depending on what you are using you might have to adjust your skill layout to keep one syphoning and one destruction ability on each bar for the passives.

    Animals Unchained | PC EU
    Homestead Theorycrafting
    Math of RNG
  • Illurian
    Illurian
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    GilGalad wrote: »
    Illurian wrote: »
    A little unrelated question (I didn't want to make another thread for this), but should I be using Force Pulse or Funnel Health as my spammable? And should I be double slotting Inner Light?

    Definitely double slot inner light. Force Pulse will deal slightly more dmg, procs Ilambris if you are using it and will give you slightly better uptimes for BSW. Funnel gives you some self healing and ultimate gain. Both can work well but depending on what you are using you might have to adjust your skill layout to keep one syphoning and one destruction ability on each bar for the passives.

    Gotcha! Thanks again!
    Kiss the chaos.
  • Artis
    Artis
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    GilGalad wrote: »
    Artis wrote: »
    GilGalad wrote: »
    Artis wrote: »
    GilGalad wrote: »

    While it is true that the dmg on adds might increase, it is irrelevant in most cases. The choice you have to make is, if you want to have more single target or more aoe dmg. Most fights end when the boss dies, no matter how much dmg was done against the adds, therefore a lightning staff might bring higher DPS because your splash dmg is higher, but the fight will take longer than with an inferno staff on your frontbar. There are only very few fights where it is really relevant to focus on adds and a lightning staff will become the better weapon.

    For AOE situations lightning will cleary win over inferno staffs, so one should have a lightning staff as backup for AOE intense dungeons/trials.

    In what most cases is it irrelevant? Are you minmaxing for Angof?

    In most cases it's irrelevant what you are using at all. In cases that matter - like VMOL or vrom/vcos, you will always have adds and you can't just ignore them, too.. For example, Hulk must die to cleave and must die fast enough, cats should die asap, adds on twins should die asap. Ignoring AOE is not a way to go. I honestly don't understand how you can be raiding end-game and say that, when all vmol fights require AOE. Or seriously, what are those most cases where the build matters at all?

    I didn't get your point, I guess.

    First of all everything you can do in terms of gear choice is within a range of +-2-3% DPS. Player skill, meaning keeping up the rotation and weaving properly, will make a much bigger difference than gear. The gear choice only determines the upper limit for a perfect playstyle.

    OP asked what staff would suit a NB best and thats dual inferno in general with some exceptions, like some of the ones you mentioned. You say vMOL is the only place where it matters? In every other trial you will go for maximum single target DPS and just let the adds die and it does not matter if they live for a few more seconds (and thats what we are talking about here). Timing ultimates well for add phases makes a way bigger difference than the weapon choice. But the solution for raids like vMOL is not to use a lightning staff, but to take a Sorc instead of a NB if you really want to go for the maximum cleave and single target dmg. Guess why there is no NB in the top 5 vMOL scores on PC EU and only a few in the lower ranks?
    But even in the case you stick with a NB: If you take a look at the vMOL top score its maximum single target dmg (apart from Alcast using ritual of retribution on a templar, which is a DPS loss on a single target and a boost to AOE). Panthers get pulled and rooted, adds in the twin fight die with ultimates and the hulk just dies in the cleave dmg. You need to push for maximum single target dmg in order to skip some phases like having to send runners for the 2nd time in vMOL HM, or skipping the split phase in Sanctum HM. You only need to have more cleave dmg if your tanks/healers can't handle the adds for a little bit longer.

    On the other hand, when you really want single adds like the hulk or the little mages in vAA HM to die as fast as possible, dual inferno will still kill them faster, but you might loose a bit DPS on the boss. This is also the case for most trash fights: There is one add that gets focused because it has to die asap or has the most health and the rest will die anyways and/or does not matter.

    Which is basically exactly my point. Only top vmol groups can pull that off. In most cases aoe will matter.

    p.s. Here we are talking about that one gear choice that is worth up to 8% damage depending on the time on each bar.
    And you are forgetting one simple thing. When NB switches to the back bar to reapply Path and Trap or Rune or whatever and cast a destro ulti, what single target skills are doing any considerable damage at that point? Only Crippling Grasp. Top 3 DPS sources that can also do damage while on the back bar are all AoE. Everything single-target is on the front bar and there's only one single target DOT that is used.

    I guess you can calculate what's better 8% to CG or 8% to blockade, path, grothdarr/illambris and destro ulti. taking into account the time spent on the back bar, if you want to answer this question strictly. But I'm pretty sure it's obvious which one will result in more damage. There's nothing doing single target damage when NB is on the back bar, so why use inferno there? Oh, maybe AW? But again, it's not that of the % of the total DPS + arguably it's a dps loss in groups.

    Why even argue? Do a dps test with Fire-Fire and Fire-Lightning and check. Maybe I'll have time later this week to do it too. But so far the theory is strongly for Fire-Lightning over Fire-Fire. But of course, in the end - the experiment is the king and can prove me wrong. So far I'm not convinced that 8% to crippling grasp and maybe AW is better than 8% to path, blockade, grothdar/illambris, destro ulti and maybe rune.


    Notice, that right now I'm talking about single target DPS only, no adds. On a single target parse, aoe skills make up for higher percentage of the DPS than single target skills that deal damage on the back bar.

    Adds add even more to it.

    I was talking about the front bar all the time considering a 8 sec backbar rotation with wall and CG on the backbar, since it allows to keep trap and path up perfectly and you have one destro skill on every bar even if you play with soul harvest and meteor. Then there is not choice but to run fire on the back and fire on the front, since the single target abilities deal way more dmg than AOE abilites.
    The other setup would be purely ranged with Ilambris instead of Grothdarr, wall and CG on frontbar, lightning backbar with destructive touch and path. I you want to play melee with Grothdarr and trap you will loose the possibility to play with meteor, since you need to have a syphoning and a destro ability on your bar.

    For the frontbar the choice is clearly inferno, since 60% of the NB DPS is single target dmg. The choice for the backbar depends on your bar setups. You get the most flexibility for a dual inferno setup with swallow soul on frontbar and CG on backbar. A setup with lighning backbar will completely determine your bars, leaving you without flex spot, thanks to the requirements for the destro and syphoning passive. In the case you want to run a shield you need to drop a kill (most likely trap or destructive touch) and run destro ulti on the backbar.

    Sure you get some extra dmg with a lightning backbar but lets calculate it just for the fun:
    Numers taken from video below:
    AOE: 40,20% DPS
    CG: (9,7/1,08)% DPS = 8,98% DPS (divided by 1,08 to since dual inferno setup was used)
    Assuming 3/12 sec on the backbar we get:
    Dual inferno: 8,98%*1,08 + 40,20% = 49,9% DPS
    Inferno/Lightning: 3/12*(40,20%*1,08+8,98%) + 9/12*49,9% = 50,5% DPS
    Thats a 0,62% DPS difference, or 250 DPS at 40k. 
    

    Calculations for lightning vs inferno frontbar
    Numers taken from video below:
    AOE: 40,20% DPS
    Single Target: (59,80/1,08)% DPS = 55,37% DPS
    Assuming 3/12 sec on the backbar we get:
    Dual inferno: 100% DPS
    Lightning/Inferno: 9/12*(40,20%*1,08+55,37%) + 3/12*100% = 99,09% DPS
    Thats a whooping 0,91% DPS difference, or 364 DPS at 40k. 
    

    So we are back to what I said earlier: all setups are within a range of +-2% DPS, in this case even within a 1% range, pretty far away from the maximum difference of 8%.

    Numers source (no destro skill on backbar):


    Ilambris ranged setup with Inferno/Lightning:

    Eh? Why would you use swallow soul at all? And yes you can have siphoning and destro ability on your back bar. If you want to slot a shield - you can drop Inner Light and put siphoning attacks leaving your dots intact. Having a fire staff there won't let you get rid of this choice anyway. Also, shooting star's initial hit is the only portion of it that benefits from a fire staff. Destro ulti is stronger. And it's AoE. I mean, I'm an average player and I'm hitting pretty much the same DPS on a dummy using a Rank I Lightning ulti with a breton race as a top NB NA (or one of) playing his dunmer. If he had a lightning staff so he could use that ulti, who knows what the numbers would be.

    Not quite sure what those videos were supposed to prove, the one about DPS in depth explicitly says that Lightning staff would be optimal, but he doesn't have it yet. Not to mention that they are 2 different videos by 2 different players and don't really answer my question = comparison between fire/fire and fire/light. Do you play a NB yourself? Why don't you check it yourself and compare? Calculations mean nothing if the experiment doesn't confirm them.

    Also, did I read it right? So you do admit that lightning back bar results in more DPS and that was the main question, so what are you arguing with?
    Edited by Artis on April 5, 2017 11:24PM
  • GilGalad
    GilGalad
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Artis wrote: »
    GilGalad wrote: »
    Artis wrote: »
    GilGalad wrote: »
    Artis wrote: »
    GilGalad wrote: »

    While it is true that the dmg on adds might increase, it is irrelevant in most cases. The choice you have to make is, if you want to have more single target or more aoe dmg. Most fights end when the boss dies, no matter how much dmg was done against the adds, therefore a lightning staff might bring higher DPS because your splash dmg is higher, but the fight will take longer than with an inferno staff on your frontbar. There are only very few fights where it is really relevant to focus on adds and a lightning staff will become the better weapon.

    For AOE situations lightning will cleary win over inferno staffs, so one should have a lightning staff as backup for AOE intense dungeons/trials.

    In what most cases is it irrelevant? Are you minmaxing for Angof?

    In most cases it's irrelevant what you are using at all. In cases that matter - like VMOL or vrom/vcos, you will always have adds and you can't just ignore them, too.. For example, Hulk must die to cleave and must die fast enough, cats should die asap, adds on twins should die asap. Ignoring AOE is not a way to go. I honestly don't understand how you can be raiding end-game and say that, when all vmol fights require AOE. Or seriously, what are those most cases where the build matters at all?

    I didn't get your point, I guess.

    First of all everything you can do in terms of gear choice is within a range of +-2-3% DPS. Player skill, meaning keeping up the rotation and weaving properly, will make a much bigger difference than gear. The gear choice only determines the upper limit for a perfect playstyle.

    OP asked what staff would suit a NB best and thats dual inferno in general with some exceptions, like some of the ones you mentioned. You say vMOL is the only place where it matters? In every other trial you will go for maximum single target DPS and just let the adds die and it does not matter if they live for a few more seconds (and thats what we are talking about here). Timing ultimates well for add phases makes a way bigger difference than the weapon choice. But the solution for raids like vMOL is not to use a lightning staff, but to take a Sorc instead of a NB if you really want to go for the maximum cleave and single target dmg. Guess why there is no NB in the top 5 vMOL scores on PC EU and only a few in the lower ranks?
    But even in the case you stick with a NB: If you take a look at the vMOL top score its maximum single target dmg (apart from Alcast using ritual of retribution on a templar, which is a DPS loss on a single target and a boost to AOE). Panthers get pulled and rooted, adds in the twin fight die with ultimates and the hulk just dies in the cleave dmg. You need to push for maximum single target dmg in order to skip some phases like having to send runners for the 2nd time in vMOL HM, or skipping the split phase in Sanctum HM. You only need to have more cleave dmg if your tanks/healers can't handle the adds for a little bit longer.

    On the other hand, when you really want single adds like the hulk or the little mages in vAA HM to die as fast as possible, dual inferno will still kill them faster, but you might loose a bit DPS on the boss. This is also the case for most trash fights: There is one add that gets focused because it has to die asap or has the most health and the rest will die anyways and/or does not matter.

    Which is basically exactly my point. Only top vmol groups can pull that off. In most cases aoe will matter.

    p.s. Here we are talking about that one gear choice that is worth up to 8% damage depending on the time on each bar.
    And you are forgetting one simple thing. When NB switches to the back bar to reapply Path and Trap or Rune or whatever and cast a destro ulti, what single target skills are doing any considerable damage at that point? Only Crippling Grasp. Top 3 DPS sources that can also do damage while on the back bar are all AoE. Everything single-target is on the front bar and there's only one single target DOT that is used.

    I guess you can calculate what's better 8% to CG or 8% to blockade, path, grothdarr/illambris and destro ulti. taking into account the time spent on the back bar, if you want to answer this question strictly. But I'm pretty sure it's obvious which one will result in more damage. There's nothing doing single target damage when NB is on the back bar, so why use inferno there? Oh, maybe AW? But again, it's not that of the % of the total DPS + arguably it's a dps loss in groups.

    Why even argue? Do a dps test with Fire-Fire and Fire-Lightning and check. Maybe I'll have time later this week to do it too. But so far the theory is strongly for Fire-Lightning over Fire-Fire. But of course, in the end - the experiment is the king and can prove me wrong. So far I'm not convinced that 8% to crippling grasp and maybe AW is better than 8% to path, blockade, grothdar/illambris, destro ulti and maybe rune.


    Notice, that right now I'm talking about single target DPS only, no adds. On a single target parse, aoe skills make up for higher percentage of the DPS than single target skills that deal damage on the back bar.

    Adds add even more to it.

    I was talking about the front bar all the time considering a 8 sec backbar rotation with wall and CG on the backbar, since it allows to keep trap and path up perfectly and you have one destro skill on every bar even if you play with soul harvest and meteor. Then there is not choice but to run fire on the back and fire on the front, since the single target abilities deal way more dmg than AOE abilites.
    The other setup would be purely ranged with Ilambris instead of Grothdarr, wall and CG on frontbar, lightning backbar with destructive touch and path. I you want to play melee with Grothdarr and trap you will loose the possibility to play with meteor, since you need to have a syphoning and a destro ability on your bar.

    For the frontbar the choice is clearly inferno, since 60% of the NB DPS is single target dmg. The choice for the backbar depends on your bar setups. You get the most flexibility for a dual inferno setup with swallow soul on frontbar and CG on backbar. A setup with lighning backbar will completely determine your bars, leaving you without flex spot, thanks to the requirements for the destro and syphoning passive. In the case you want to run a shield you need to drop a kill (most likely trap or destructive touch) and run destro ulti on the backbar.

    Sure you get some extra dmg with a lightning backbar but lets calculate it just for the fun:
    Numers taken from video below:
    AOE: 40,20% DPS
    CG: (9,7/1,08)% DPS = 8,98% DPS (divided by 1,08 to since dual inferno setup was used)
    Assuming 3/12 sec on the backbar we get:
    Dual inferno: 8,98%*1,08 + 40,20% = 49,9% DPS
    Inferno/Lightning: 3/12*(40,20%*1,08+8,98%) + 9/12*49,9% = 50,5% DPS
    Thats a 0,62% DPS difference, or 250 DPS at 40k. 
    

    Calculations for lightning vs inferno frontbar
    Numers taken from video below:
    AOE: 40,20% DPS
    Single Target: (59,80/1,08)% DPS = 55,37% DPS
    Assuming 3/12 sec on the backbar we get:
    Dual inferno: 100% DPS
    Lightning/Inferno: 9/12*(40,20%*1,08+55,37%) + 3/12*100% = 99,09% DPS
    Thats a whooping 0,91% DPS difference, or 364 DPS at 40k. 
    

    So we are back to what I said earlier: all setups are within a range of +-2% DPS, in this case even within a 1% range, pretty far away from the maximum difference of 8%.

    Numers source (no destro skill on backbar):


    Ilambris ranged setup with Inferno/Lightning:

    Eh? Why would you use swallow soul at all? And yes you can have siphoning and destro ability on your back bar. If you want to slot a shield - you can drop Inner Light and put siphoning attacks leaving your dots intact. Having a fire staff there won't let you get rid of this choice anyway. Also, shooting star's initial hit is the only portion of it that benefits from a fire staff. Destro ulti is stronger. And it's AoE. I mean, I'm an average player and I'm hitting pretty much the same DPS on a dummy using a Rank I Lightning ulti with a breton race as a top NB NA (or one of) playing his dunmer. If he had a lightning staff so he could use that ulti, who knows what the numbers would be.

    Not quite sure what those videos were supposed to prove, the one about DPS in depth explicitly says that Lightning staff would be optimal, but he doesn't have it yet. Not to mention that they are 2 different videos by 2 different players and don't really answer my question = comparison between fire/fire and fire/light. Do you play a NB yourself? Why don't you check it yourself and compare? Calculations mean nothing if the experiment doesn't confirm them.

    Also, did I read it right? So you do admit that lightning back bar results in more DPS and that was the main question, so what are you arguing with?

    The first video was just to get some numbers from the combat metrics log. It does not matter what staff he uses on the backbar since he has no destro ability there, for whatever reason.
    Maybe there was missunderstanding concerning my statements regarding the staff types. I was always talking about the front bar, which has to be inferno on a NB. The backbar is not soo relevant because the difference is small as showed above (numbers taken are actualy more in favor of lightning since I assumed there was a destro ability on the backbar, which was not the case). Yes lightning backbar will be stronger but the difference is in the order of 3 missed light attacks. But with lightning backbar you have to run blockade and force pulse on your frontbar, therefore you need an additional destro ability on the backbar, that is usually not part of the rotation.
    One could argue if destro ultimate is really stronger than meteor. For a single cast it surely is, but if you consider the much lower cost of meteor and especially shooting star when hitting some adds, meteor will pull ahead in terms of single target dmg in longer fights. Since the adds usually die to the cleave dmg anyways you want to go for the highest single target dmg possible in order to kill the boss as fast as possible.

    I think we can agree on the conclusion, that NB needs to have an inferno staff on the front bar. What staff has to be on the backbar depends mostly on the prefered skill layout and content, while lightning staffs are slightly better in terms of pure DPS.
    Are you fine with that?

    The reason why I don't test all this stuff is, that i simply don't have the time to do it and the difference is so small that you probably won't even see it due to the deviations in critical hits, minor vulnerability uptimes, etc. The theoretical difference is equivalent to 3 missed light attacks or 3 more crits on light attacks. One would have to do like 50 tests each in order to derive the mean DPS from the resulting normal (Gaussian) distributions.

    Alternatively we could kindly ask @Asayre if he wants to simulate the same setups with Dual Inferno and Inferno/lightning (BSW, Grothdarr, Moondancer, MSA Front). Just the standard rotation with blockade, cripple, trap, path, meteor, Force Pulse, Impale and assasins will (not shot if too complicated to implement, the difference between 2 Force Pulse and 1 assasins will is really small anyways). Destructive touch will lead to bigger differences in minor vulnerability uptimes, therefore we should exclude it from the test, since it is 100% up in raids anyways. Assume there is a syphoning and destruction staff ability on each bar.
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