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Hush, I have zero points in Warlord already.
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BadLuckCharm✭✭✭History shows ZOS did not care the less to check side effects of their nerfs if not after months and months of enraged feeback by many.
Present shows the nerfs being present and "photographed", whereas the rebalance of existing content has not been even taken into consideration.
This gives more that one reason to be skeptical about ZOS ability to "do it right".
What happens is this: they handful of top guilds (Hodor and similar) with those 57k DPS "one in a million" players will clear content doing in example 40k DPS.
The absoultely, overly-massive majority, barely able to clear those instances today, will suddenly do 5-10K DPS below the minimum required to pass DPS checks and will go under.
The result? Similar to what I have seen 2 years ago: perhaps 70% of trial guilds evaporating from the game in few months.
Ok, i see. Sounds like - to me, at least - they want to thin out the ranks of guilds/players able to clear out "top content". Keep the "glory" to the few, the elite.
If that's the intent, then bah! Not that i expect it to affect me very much (short term) since i don't run that content right now, but kinda sucks.
Reminds me of how things were when WoW transitioned from WotLK to Cataclysm. Raiding was pretty easy in Wrath - even i did it! - and then wham...rocks fall, guilds die. No idea where things are at now, haven't played since end of Pandas Inc. I guess every game has to go through that stage, for some reason.
A'right, thanks.1 -
Sibenice✭✭✭✭BadLuckCharm wrote: »Reminds me of how things were when WoW transitioned from WotLK to Cataclysm. Raiding was pretty easy in Wrath - even i did it! - and then wham...rocks fall, guilds die. No idea where things are at now, haven't played since end of Pandas Inc. I guess every game has to go through that stage, for some reason.
A'right, thanks.
I can tell you where. WoW's at the point where they've stopped posting sub numbers they dropped so many people.
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apostate9✭✭✭✭✭bowmanz607 wrote: »What sets are you running? Damage sets? Sustain? Black rose, amberplasm, etc?
Of course, you can sustain with different sets. The potential issue is universal sustainability, not really "I can sustain, therefore it must not be an issue for most other people".
Why on Earth should sustain be "universal"? You mean high damage builds should have sustain at the cost of...nothing?
That's actually the problem.
people are just bad at the game and dont want these nerfs because they dont know how to play. so the people that know how to play must suffer balance issues because of people that cant learn the fundamentals of the game mechanics.
Yup. Pretty much.
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theslynx✭✭✭For the record, Mooncalf's effect is being reduced in addition to removal of Warlord. And if you're in heavy armour, you already lost some sustain from the nerf to heavy attack regenerating resources, too.
It's nice you're coping, OP, but as others have pointed out, not all builds and players will do so well.0 -
apostate9✭✭✭✭✭For the record, Mooncalf's effect is being reduced in addition to removal of Warlord. And if you're in heavy armour, you already lost some sustain from the nerf to heavy attack regenerating resources, too.
It's nice you're coping, OP, but as others have pointed out, not all builds and players will do so well.
Not all players and builds deserve to?
Invest in sustain, or min/max damage. You aren't gonna be able to do both anymore, nor should you have been able to... ever.
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bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭For the record, Mooncalf's effect is being reduced in addition to removal of Warlord. And if you're in heavy armour, you already lost some sustain from the nerf to heavy attack regenerating resources, too.
It's nice you're coping, OP, but as others have pointed out, not all builds and players will do so well.
Not all players and builds deserve to?
Invest in sustain, or min/max damage. You aren't gonna be able to do both anymore, nor should you have been able to... ever.
exactly. the problem right now is that any build can do it all with little thought to setup b/c of cp.0 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »I see an endless stream of ppl saying that I'm saying "I can do it so everyone can do it" yet they don't see the irony in them saying "I can't do it so you can't do it."
L
2
P
@bg22
We are merely saying you would do lousy dps in PvE. Your argument is rather moot to the larger game considering you merely do burst damage in PvP.
Basically it is get real time.
Set up as I am, yes, I do great burst damage. However I can still comfortably run 15k+ (On a target dummy) sustained indefinitely. Yes that's not a lot, and I get that, but that's kinda the goal that the devs are going for. Also, because of the fact that I stack penetration, I still hit very very hard.
As is, the sustainable DPS ceiling is ridiculously high. So much so that if you're not running BiS as a magicka character, you're basically laughable. And stamina DPS is not welcome in leaderboard runs. This is an attempt, in my opinion, to change that. And I'm a fan.
@bg22
okay how do I put this...
25k is not alot
15k is absolutely pathetic
Now I do like your point of this is ZOS's attempt to narrow the DPS gap, that's honestly something I did not think of when I was scratching my head as to why they would make the CP change. But really...innovative builds, person skill, and group synergy will forever and ever separate the good from the bad. People tend to underestimate quality effort put into learning their characters, they think the secret weapon is always the gear and that is the answer to everything. Well its not.
But yea really you ended the whole discussion by finally admitting your own dps numbers, it absolutely validated every point every one else was trying to make.
And you're completely incorrect with your claim. Switching out weapons from 2H to bow would crank my number way up. Hell, w/ 4K Weapon damage and max therm, you don't think my poison and hail would spike my DPS? Lol
Again, im set up for solo play, not max DPS. That requires self survivability buffs, of course.
Don't make ignorant claims dude. It's weak.0 -
Vercingetorix✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm a StamPlar.
I run Spriggans, and Clever Alch. 7/7 medium.
In other words... everyone's assumptions were wrong. lol
You're the same guy who got mad every time someone disagreed with you about disliking PvP. Got your own thread closed, too.
On topic: Your "build" is a gank build with likely a 2H and/or a bow. A fight lasts 3 secs for you in PvP. No one cares about that kind of setup because it has no place in 99% of the rest of the actual game. Your build can do one thing and one thing only - for about 5 secs or so in a VERY specific situation. Sounds like a trash build to me. Try bringing that crap in vet Trials - you'd die to the first mob pull, lol.“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”2 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vercingetorix wrote: »I'm a StamPlar.
I run Spriggans, and Clever Alch. 7/7 medium.
In other words... everyone's assumptions were wrong. lol
You're the same guy who got mad every time someone disagreed with you about disliking PvP. Got your own thread closed, too.
On topic: Your "build" is a gank build with likely a 2H and/or a bow. A fight lasts 3 secs for you in PvP. No one cares about that kind of setup because it has no place in 99% of the rest of the actual game. Your build can do one thing and one thing only - for about 5 secs or so in a VERY specific situation. Sounds like a trash build to me. Try bringing that crap in vet Trials - you'd die to the first mob pull, lol.
I guess you didn't read my comments in that thread? I didn't argue with anyone... I provided positive feedback and other ppl arguing over ridiculous opinions got it closed. Cool story tho.
And no, I use DW.0 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vercingetorix wrote: »I'm a StamPlar.
I run Spriggans, and Clever Alch. 7/7 medium.
In other words... everyone's assumptions were wrong. lol
You're the same guy who got mad every time someone disagreed with you about disliking PvP. Got your own thread closed, too.
On topic: Your "build" is a gank build with likely a 2H and/or a bow. A fight lasts 3 secs for you in PvP. No one cares about that kind of setup because it has no place in 99% of the rest of the actual game. Your build can do one thing and one thing only - for about 5 secs or so in a VERY specific situation. Sounds like a trash build to me. Try bringing that crap in vet Trials - you'd die to the first mob pull, lol.
So, 4K Weapon damage and 2k recovery is trash? Got it.
If I were going to vet trials I'd switch a few things (my buff bar 2H, to bow for dots), food from max health/Stam regen to Stam/stam, and my 1 other glyph to Weapon damage. My impen to divines to increase crit to 64%. And my axes to daggers for 74%.
What all do you know ab my build?
Edited by bg22 on March 20, 2017 5:31PM0 -
theslynx✭✭✭Not all players and builds deserve to?
Invest in sustain, or min/max damage. You aren't gonna be able to do both anymore, nor should you have been able to... ever.
Respectfully, I think this is a specious argument.
First, you're assuming it only affects DPS. I expect some tanks to have issues, too, in encounters that demand a lot of blocking alongside ability usage, where having both a reasonable pool and decent regen are important. Second, I clearly do not mean that currently, any random hodge-podge build can do any content effectively. A lot of 'creative' builds are already kept out of harder modes. This will probably hone the spectrum of effective builds at any given difficulty to a greater extent, limiting diversity. I fail to see why this is inherently a good thing, and I think it's actually undesirable for a number of reasons. You seem to be arguing as if such a winnowing feature is entirely absent in the game presently and will finally be introduced. I don't think that's accurate. (In fact, it's in ways antithetical to what OP posited, that the difference was fairly negligible and we should relax.)
I ultimately don't think the game's PvE mechanics are constructed such that reducing sustain to such a degree is going to play out well. I suspect it will make a lot of content frustrating and increase the demands for people to use precise meta builds, classes and races for each role. Further, there's a balance between the tension that your resources and dwindling alongside the need to use them that's pleasant, but taken too far, it becomes fights in which you're just running about helplessly for prolonged periods and it becomes tedious. Perhaps they'll be adjusting health pools or making other tweaks to compensate, but nothing I've seen from their balance changes so far makes me particularly optimistic on the matter.
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apostate9✭✭✭✭✭Not all players and builds deserve to?
Invest in sustain, or min/max damage. You aren't gonna be able to do both anymore, nor should you have been able to... ever.
Respectfully, I think this is a specious argument.
First, you're assuming it only affects DPS. I expect some tanks to have issues, too, in encounters that demand a lot of blocking alongside ability usage, where having both a reasonable pool and decent regen are important. Second, I clearly do not mean that currently, any random hodge-podge build can do any content effectively. A lot of 'creative' builds are already kept out of harder modes. This will probably hone the spectrum of effective builds at any given difficulty to a greater extent, limiting diversity. I fail to see why this is inherently a good thing, and I think it's actually undesirable for a number of reasons. You seem to be arguing as if such a winnowing feature is entirely absent in the game presently and will finally be introduced. I don't think that's accurate. (In fact, it's in ways antithetical to what OP posited, that the difference was fairly negligible and we should relax.)
I ultimately don't think the game's PvE mechanics are constructed such that reducing sustain to such a degree is going to play out well. I suspect it will make a lot of content frustrating and increase the demands for people to use precise meta builds, classes and races for each role. Further, there's a balance between the tension that your resources and dwindling alongside the need to use them that's pleasant, but taken too far, it becomes fights in which you're just running about helplessly for prolonged periods and it becomes tedious. Perhaps they'll be adjusting health pools or making other tweaks to compensate, but nothing I've seen from their balance changes so far makes me particularly optimistic on the matter.
We don't seem to be having the same conversation.
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techprince✭✭✭✭✭For PvE, this will affect yes but we will adapt. I sincerely hope Rapid Mending nerf should be reverted if its going though as it is.
For PvP, its a welcoming change.
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Dantaria✭✭✭✭✭
27k stam? Really? I'm sorry, but it's like... bad. Very bad. And 4k weapon power isn't going to save you, because max pool is much more important. Your hp, on the other hand, is unnecessary high.
Go and make PvE DD build. With maxed pool and enough damage glyphs to pull at least 20k on your CP. Then we will talk about "infinite" sustain.
Edited by Dantaria on March 20, 2017 7:38PMEnglish isn't my native, apologies for any mistakes.0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭
27k stam? Really? I'm sorry, but it's like... bad. Very bad. And 4k weapon power isn't going to save you, because max pool is much more important. Your hp, on the other hand, is unnecessary high.
Go and make PvE DD build. With maxed pool and enough damage glyphs to pull at least 20k on your CP. Then we will talk about "infinite" sustain.
1000 max stam is about 100 weapon damage.0 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭
27k stam? Really? I'm sorry, but it's like... bad. Very bad. And 4k weapon power isn't going to save you, because max pool is much more important. Your hp, on the other hand, is unnecessary high.
Go and make PvE DD build. With maxed pool and enough damage glyphs to pull at least 20k on your CP. Then we will talk about "infinite" sustain.
Again, this is not a trial DPS setup.
Again, this is not a trial DPS setup.
Again, this is not a trial DPS setup.
It's a solo PvP/PvE setup. I know how to min/max. This is not that.
This is with health/Stam regen food.0 -
Dantaria✭✭✭✭✭
Not that easy afaik. And that crit. Which mundus we're talking about, I wonder...bowmanz607 wrote: »1000 max stam is about 100 weapon damage.
Which, as many others have said before me, makes your point invalid.
27k stam? Really? I'm sorry, but it's like... bad. Very bad. And 4k weapon power isn't going to save you, because max pool is much more important. Your hp, on the other hand, is unnecessary high.
Go and make PvE DD build. With maxed pool and enough damage glyphs to pull at least 20k on your CP. Then we will talk about "infinite" sustain.
Again, this is not a trial DPS setup.
Again, this is not a trial DPS setup.
Again, this is not a trial DPS setup.
It's a solo PvP/PvE setup. I know how to min/max. This is not that.
This is with health/Stam regen food.
Pass vet Trials. Hell, pass vet Imperial DLC dungs, I'm not even talking about SotH. "It's going to be alright", aha.
English isn't my native, apologies for any mistakes.3 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Not that easy afaik. And that crit. Which mundus we're talking about, I wonder...bowmanz607 wrote: »1000 max stam is about 100 weapon damage.
Which, as many others have said before me, makes your point invalid.
27k stam? Really? I'm sorry, but it's like... bad. Very bad. And 4k weapon power isn't going to save you, because max pool is much more important. Your hp, on the other hand, is unnecessary high.
Go and make PvE DD build. With maxed pool and enough damage glyphs to pull at least 20k on your CP. Then we will talk about "infinite" sustain.
Again, this is not a trial DPS setup.
Again, this is not a trial DPS setup.
Again, this is not a trial DPS setup.
It's a solo PvP/PvE setup. I know how to min/max. This is not that.
This is with health/Stam regen food.
Pass vet Trials. Hell, pass vet Imperial DLC dungs, I'm not even talking about SotH. "It's going to be alright", aha.
The level of incomprehension here hurts my head.
It takes me 30 seconds to switch gear, skills and food (not champion points) to make me vet trial ready.
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bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Not that easy afaik. And that crit. Which mundus we're talking about, I wonder...bowmanz607 wrote: »1000 max stam is about 100 weapon damage.
Which, as many others have said before me, makes your point invalid.
27k stam? Really? I'm sorry, but it's like... bad. Very bad. And 4k weapon power isn't going to save you, because max pool is much more important. Your hp, on the other hand, is unnecessary high.
Go and make PvE DD build. With maxed pool and enough damage glyphs to pull at least 20k on your CP. Then we will talk about "infinite" sustain.
Again, this is not a trial DPS setup.
Again, this is not a trial DPS setup.
Again, this is not a trial DPS setup.
It's a solo PvP/PvE setup. I know how to min/max. This is not that.
This is with health/Stam regen food.
Pass vet Trials. Hell, pass vet Imperial DLC dungs, I'm not even talking about SotH. "It's going to be alright", aha.
It is that easy. Also, pretty easy to hit good crit with medium.0 -
Dantaria✭✭✭✭✭
So, have you passed vet trial? And not as a carry, but as a fully useful teammember? How was your sustain? Still no problems? *trollface*The level of incomprehension here hurts my head.
It takes me 30 seconds to switch gear, skills and food (not champion points) to make me vet trial ready.
54% is not a good crit for DW setup.bowmanz607 wrote: »It is that easy. Also, pretty easy to hit good crit with medium.
English isn't my native, apologies for any mistakes.2 -
EldritchPenguin✭✭✭✭✭
There's already a very real cost of high damage builds. My mDK can barely sustain herself for more than a minute. It's only with Magicka Steal and a bunch of orbs (and other synergies in general) where I can sustain myself well enough to burn down a boss.What sets are you running? Damage sets? Sustain? Black rose, amberplasm, etc?
Of course, you can sustain with different sets. The potential issue is universal sustainability, not really "I can sustain, therefore it must not be an issue for most other people".
Why on Earth should sustain be "universal"? You mean high damage builds should have sustain at the cost of...nothing?
That's actually the problem.
So no. Max DPS builds don't have sustain at the cost of nothing. They can only sustain in groups where the healer is supplying the sustain for them.Lilelle Adlis - Dark Elf Dragonknight
Vaynothah Sailenar - Dark Elf Templar
Sherivah Telvanni - Dark Elf Sorcerer
Nephiah Telvanni - Dark Elf Nightblade2 -
mr_wazzabi✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is a suggestion from the main thread from @president.rassilonb14_ESO
Why not just do it this way....
Under Tower:
Magician = Reduce Magicka costs when wearing (Light armor (5 Pieces))
Warlord = Reduce Stamina costs when wearing (Medium Armor (5 Pieces))
New one:
Resolve: Reduce Damage when wearing (Heavy Armor (5 Pieces))
That way every armor type gets a bonus to where they need. Magicka reduction for wearing 5 Light armor, Stamina costs reduction for wearing 5 medium armor and damage reduction when wearing 5 heavy armor (which gets rid of the problem with cost reductions with heavy armor focus and still leaves 16% reduction to cost for stamina and magicka with the appropriate armor.
Leave Sprinter and Bashing focus there giving a total of 5 options for points and balance the game.
Bosmer Stamina NB
Altmer Magicka TEMP
Dunmer DK both stam/mag (depends what I feel like)
Altmer Magicka NB
Breton Magicka Sorc
Redguard Stam Sorc
Max CP1 -
Dantaria✭✭✭✭✭EldritchPenguin wrote: »There's already a very real cost of high damage builds. My mDK can barely sustain herself for more than a minute. It's only with Magicka Steal and a bunch of orbs (and other synergies in general) where I can sustain myself well enough to burn down a boss.
So no. Max DPS builds don't have sustain at the cost of nothing. They can only sustain in groups where the healer is supplying the sustain for them.
Exactly! *shakes hand*
If you run the high damage build - which does enough damage for end-game content full of enrage mechanics - you always ask heal for ele drain/orbs/shards. There is no sustain. I repeat, there is no sustain. That's a deal you make for high dps. Ele drain from heal or... well, I have to do it myself, gotta swap some skills, I don't need the shield, right?
Without Warlord and Magician... Oh well, you wanted to play non-Templar healer? And you wanted your pledges and trials to not be insane button mashing? Pffffff, too bad.English isn't my native, apologies for any mistakes.4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
27k stam? Really? I'm sorry, but it's like... bad. Very bad. And 4k weapon power isn't going to save you, because max pool is much more important. Your hp, on the other hand, is unnecessary high.
Go and make PvE DD build. With maxed pool and enough damage glyphs to pull at least 20k on your CP. Then we will talk about "infinite" sustain.
Again, this is not a trial DPS setup.
Again, this is not a trial DPS setup.
Again, this is not a trial DPS setup.
It's a solo PvP/PvE setup. I know how to min/max. This is not that.
This is with health/Stam regen food.
Dude. You started this thread of misinformation and these are the results.Edited by idk on March 20, 2017 8:37PM4 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭
So, have you passed vet trial? And not as a carry, but as a fully useful teammember? How was your sustain? Still no problems? *trollface*The level of incomprehension here hurts my head.
It takes me 30 seconds to switch gear, skills and food (not champion points) to make me vet trial ready.
54% is not a good crit for DW setup.bowmanz607 wrote: »It is that easy. Also, pretty easy to hit good crit with medium.
not if your min/maxing sure1 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭bowmanz607 wrote: »
So, have you passed vet trial? And not as a carry, but as a fully useful teammember? How was your sustain? Still no problems? *trollface*The level of incomprehension here hurts my head.
It takes me 30 seconds to switch gear, skills and food (not champion points) to make me vet trial ready.
54% is not a good crit for DW setup.bowmanz607 wrote: »It is that easy. Also, pretty easy to hit good crit with medium.
not if your min/maxing sure
Exactly. I'm running 2 axes. And Impen gear.
Put on daggers and devines and I'm 70% crit.
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bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭For the record, Mooncalf's effect is being reduced in addition to removal of Warlord. And if you're in heavy armour, you already lost some sustain from the nerf to heavy attack regenerating resources, too.
It's nice you're coping, OP, but as others have pointed out, not all builds and players will do so well.
I only have 35 points in Mooncalf, so I'm not sweating it.
There's more than 1 way to skin a skeever.0 -
apostate9✭✭✭✭✭EldritchPenguin wrote: »
There's already a very real cost of high damage builds. My mDK can barely sustain herself for more than a minute. It's only with Magicka Steal and a bunch of orbs (and other synergies in general) where I can sustain myself well enough to burn down a boss.What sets are you running? Damage sets? Sustain? Black rose, amberplasm, etc?
Of course, you can sustain with different sets. The potential issue is universal sustainability, not really "I can sustain, therefore it must not be an issue for most other people".
Why on Earth should sustain be "universal"? You mean high damage builds should have sustain at the cost of...nothing?
That's actually the problem.
So no. Max DPS builds don't have sustain at the cost of nothing. They can only sustain in groups where the healer is supplying the sustain for them.
Odd, my MDK doesn't have that problem. I fixed it with a bunch of cp.
0
a good PvE nerd fight.