sneakymitchell wrote: »

It's either use this and only this for ur set up.

Welcome to MMOs, they're all the same.

This game is totaly unbalanced, stam have only 1 option, vma dagger and dw + bow. Other options are weak.

So, this thread has taken a grand nosedive... I'm still confused, if there is such a population of people who would like to do underperforming builds without being judged, why are y'all not forming a guild right this second?

You can clear pretty much all of the content in the game with 20 or 25k dps, and most of it you only need half that. There's folks out there who've put hours into hitting 30, 40, 50k dps and would rather plow through content with others hitting high like that. There's folks who really couldn't give a rat's arse either way as long as you spend most of the dungeon alive and (taunt, heal, or dps depending on role selected). If you really really want to get into contact with more entirely anti-meta folks, make a guild...

PvP has meta. PvE has BiS.

Meta does not mean it's the best. It means a lot of people use it. Can other builds kill you or outperform it, yes. PvE simply has the best set up and the best set up is the one that has the most dps. You're not being different using a set up because it's non meta, you're using a setup that is weaker.

@IronCrystal by real I mean with wards etc slotted that I would normally use in my rotation. I can replace all with DOT / AOE and hit 21-22k however id never run like that in real world.

I dont do Vet Trials granted. And I think thats part of the confusion with these threas, when the Meta / min max debate comes up its really referring to Vet Trials, which is a very different play style to other content. Likewise a 30k dummy build could be whack at PvP.

Each to their own, as this thread shows. And I think.as long as you can do the content you want to do, how you want then your set / build is cool. However it does seem there is a degree of elitism around Trials with certain groups.

Granted some of that may be justified from HM, speed run no death boys wanting a score however its unlikely they will be taking randoms thru for that.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

Then... don't copy the builds? Don't play with people that demand that of you? I'm not sure what you want. There's soooo many people that complain about this, and all I can wonder is: why don't y'all get together and form a guild? Like, seriously.

Is the complaint that people direct others to optimized min/max builds when they ask for help? If you want there to be guides for not-quite-optimized builds, try making them yourself and share them.

You've got me totally lost, what's the precise thing you dislike?

Sharing a non minimax build will be a joke to meta players. And I don't see any builds now a days or on YouTube. Try to search for the non meta youtubers. But rarely got those rare gem builds now a days. Even with players say magic is better than stam. (But they still say stam is still good but not really this patch cause the substain magicka has.)

Got you covered fam.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6JQhQFfmPFnfA7Zfd3_70A

I'm sorry but I checked his videos. It's mostly PVP. And in open world PVP u can do whatever for ur build cause ur mostly in a 24 man group or in a Zerg. Like I can be in PVP naked if I wanted to and just use siege to be successful in PVP with my 24 group.

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It's either use this and only this for ur set up. Makes the game boring in variations. I say if u know what u are doing with ur build and u know ur skill rotation. But then again we look at minimax builds cause they pull of 1k DPS or more than the players who does it differently.

Don't use them, you only have to use them if you want to compete for the leaderboard. Other than that, as long as you deal 20k DPS, you are good for vet dungeons HM. If you can deal 25k-30k DPS, you are good for vet trials.

On my sorc I run a stam/mag hybrid dd set up just for the fun of it. Easily pulling 25k. But guess what happens sometimes when Ijoin a pug for a vet dungeon and they see me using a staff and dw?



Altough, this would be such a nice place if people would only care if the content get's done or not. From what I read in this forum many often encounter jerks in pugs, kicking them for not running a FOTM build or being at cp cap. It just doesn't matter if one brings that 20k to the table or if they know the mechanics. Many people just want to get things done as fast as possible and if they see others running a different from the meta build, they incline to kick'em before giving a proper chance to prove their worth.
However, one would be better of to avoid pugs and only play with guild members. But that's the advice people give to both sides, to the "elitists" and the "noobs"/ non-FOTM players. What a sad conclusion.

You do know that destro/ dual wield was meta at one point. And is still used on some templars. I used that combo on my sorc for the longest time for OL. That's why spinner/ elegant swords were so expensive.

So I'm sure most people that knew the game didn't think anything of your staff/ dw build.


If you want to compete at end game you need to increase your knowledge/ skill in game. If you just want to run normal dungeons, then do whatever you want. (Play as you want)

I have a toon that is mainly used for crafting but I also keep random builds that I think are neat and every once in awhile I go kill random stuff just because. But I don't go entering group content where I can't pull my own weight. I don't want to be that guy that places a burden on the rest of my team.

@alexkdd99

Yes I do know that it was the meta, but (and here I think I could be more clear) I meant that in context to the hybrid build, really utilizing skills from DW and Staff and not just carrying two swords around to boost spell damage stats. That's what I ment to say.

I agree that nobody cares if you do it for *** and giggles in normal dungeon pugs but even if you carry your own weight with an absurd build in vet pugs some people still tend to kick you just because you could be a minute faster if you'd run a minmax build. The game is already pigeonholding us, even more so with cost reduction cp removal, so I see it with great consternation that some elitists force other players even more into certain builds.

To make it clear this time: I am strongly in favor for everyone carrying their own weight, fullfilling their role and adding something to the group. I just can't stand unnecessary kicks for not playing BiS.

sneakymitchell wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

Then... don't copy the builds? Don't play with people that demand that of you? I'm not sure what you want. There's soooo many people that complain about this, and all I can wonder is: why don't y'all get together and form a guild? Like, seriously.

Is the complaint that people direct others to optimized min/max builds when they ask for help? If you want there to be guides for not-quite-optimized builds, try making them yourself and share them.

You've got me totally lost, what's the precise thing you dislike?

Sharing a non minimax build will be a joke to meta players. And I don't see any builds now a days or on YouTube. Try to search for the non meta youtubers. But rarely got those rare gem builds now a days. Even with players say magic is better than stam. (But they still say stam is still good but not really this patch cause the substain magicka has.)

Go to Deltia, he's one of the biggest ESO YouTubers and has non meta builds. I literally searched for 5 seconds and found it. Did you even look? Shoot even Alcast, who runs vet trials will put up a non meta build every so often. So again did you even look. Or did you just talk out your sanctum ophida?

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

Then... don't copy the builds? Don't play with people that demand that of you? I'm not sure what you want. There's soooo many people that complain about this, and all I can wonder is: why don't y'all get together and form a guild? Like, seriously.

Is the complaint that people direct others to optimized min/max builds when they ask for help? If you want there to be guides for not-quite-optimized builds, try making them yourself and share them.

You've got me totally lost, what's the precise thing you dislike?

Sharing a non minimax build will be a joke to meta players. And I don't see any builds now a days or on YouTube. Try to search for the non meta youtubers. But rarely got those rare gem builds now a days. Even with players say magic is better than stam. (But they still say stam is still good but not really this patch cause the substain magicka has.)

Go to Deltia, he's one of the biggest ESO YouTubers and has non meta builds. I literally searched for 5 seconds and found it. Did you even look? Shoot even Alcast, who runs vet trials will put up a non meta build every so often. So again did you even look. Or did you just talk out your sanctum ophida?

Nice wording you use there. Alcast and Deltia are well known guys, so I think it's save to say he knows them.

BTW, if YOU take a look at e.g. Alcast's magicka DD builds you will find BSW and Moondancer, BSW and Moondancer, BSW and Moondancer...

Alcast also has quite a few non-meta builds actually. Those you mentioned are his BiS setups made for vet trials.

http://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-sorcerer-frost-build-pve/
http://alcasthq.com/stamina-dragonknight-burst-build-pvp2/
http://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-sorcerer-heavy-armor-build-pvp1/

Deltia has quite a few non-met builds as well.

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It's either use this and only this for ur set up. Makes the game boring in variations. I say if u know what u are doing with ur build and u know ur skill rotation. But then again we look at minimax builds cause they pull of 1k DPS or more than the players who does it differently.

Don't use them, you only have to use them if you want to compete for the leaderboard. Other than that, as long as you deal 20k DPS, you are good for vet dungeons HM. If you can deal 25k-30k DPS, you are good for vet trials.

On my sorc I run a stam/mag hybrid dd set up just for the fun of it. Easily pulling 25k. But guess what happens sometimes when Ijoin a pug for a vet dungeon and they see me using a staff and dw?



Altough, this would be such a nice place if people would only care if the content get's done or not. From what I read in this forum many often encounter jerks in pugs, kicking them for not running a FOTM build or being at cp cap. It just doesn't matter if one brings that 20k to the table or if they know the mechanics. Many people just want to get things done as fast as possible and if they see others running a different from the meta build, they incline to kick'em before giving a proper chance to prove their worth.
However, one would be better of to avoid pugs and only play with guild members. But that's the advice people give to both sides, to the "elitists" and the "noobs"/ non-FOTM players. What a sad conclusion.

You do know that destro/ dual wield was meta at one point. And is still used on some templars. I used that combo on my sorc for the longest time for OL. That's why spinner/ elegant swords were so expensive.

So I'm sure most people that knew the game didn't think anything of your staff/ dw build.


If you want to compete at end game you need to increase your knowledge/ skill in game. If you just want to run normal dungeons, then do whatever you want. (Play as you want)

I have a toon that is mainly used for crafting but I also keep random builds that I think are neat and every once in awhile I go kill random stuff just because. But I don't go entering group content where I can't pull my own weight. I don't want to be that guy that places a burden on the rest of my team.

Nah, "play the way you want" doesn't mean you have to stick to normal dungeons. "Play the way you want" as long as you do your job. If you can pull 20k DPS, do the content that requires 20k DPS, whatever your build is. If the content requires 30k DPS, go for it as long as you can pull 30k. It doesn't matter if you use flurry and back bar destro. If you can taunt things and provide group support and survive the content, do it, it doesn't matter if you are a BoL using magplar tank or nightblade saptank or shield stacking magsorc tank. if you can keep your group alive and throw orbs, combat prayer, it doesn't matter if you are a nightblade healer or even sorc pet healer.

I like the new dps dummies precisely because people can fiddle with unusual builds in a non impactful environment.

I like running non BiS, though I do like to use BiS as a benchmark to start with. Not all gold, not all perfect traits, but at least purple gear, possibly blue jewellery and then see what sort of DPS I'm doing.

Then I'll try out my latest brain fart to see how far out my numbers are. So if my non optimised "BiS" setup gets me 17k then I expect my non optimised "test" to get at least 15k or I ditch it as a bad idea.

Unsurprisingly I find most gear sets get fairly close. Automaton vs hundings rage vs sword dancer. Leviathan vs Toothrow. There isn't a lot of difference between these sets.

Something like Morkuldin or briarheart can be a bit harder to quantify however. How often is the briarthorns proc'ing for this build? Is my crit high enough for it to have enough up time? I've just swapped around my stamblade from Leviathan/Briarheart/Sellstrix to Witch-hunter/Briarheart/Sellstrix and I have no idea if the stam/health return on ult will balance out the loss of crit chance. Maybe I need to slot evil hunter on my front bar now for that extra crit chance. Maybe I really don't need that extra health and stam return anyway. I really should get minor heroism into my rotation somehow...

But I'm sure as hell not going into a group until I have worked this out enough to confidently say to other people "I'm not wasting your time with my sub par build".

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

Then... don't copy the builds? Don't play with people that demand that of you? I'm not sure what you want. There's soooo many people that complain about this, and all I can wonder is: why don't y'all get together and form a guild? Like, seriously.

Is the complaint that people direct others to optimized min/max builds when they ask for help? If you want there to be guides for not-quite-optimized builds, try making them yourself and share them.

You've got me totally lost, what's the precise thing you dislike?

Sharing a non minimax build will be a joke to meta players. And I don't see any builds now a days or on YouTube. Try to search for the non meta youtubers. But rarely got those rare gem builds now a days. Even with players say magic is better than stam. (But they still say stam is still good but not really this patch cause the substain magicka has.)

Go to Deltia, he's one of the biggest ESO YouTubers and has non meta builds. I literally searched for 5 seconds and found it. Did you even look? Shoot even Alcast, who runs vet trials will put up a non meta build every so often. So again did you even look. Or did you just talk out your sanctum ophida?

Nice wording you use there. Alcast and Deltia are well known guys, so I think it's save to say he knows them.

BTW, if YOU take a look at e.g. Alcast's magicka DD builds you will find BSW and Moondancer, BSW and Moondancer, BSW and Moondancer...

Alcast also has quite a few non-meta builds actually. Those you mentioned are his BiS setups made for vet trials.

http://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-sorcerer-frost-build-pve/
http://alcasthq.com/stamina-dragonknight-burst-build-pvp2/
http://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-sorcerer-heavy-armor-build-pvp1/

Deltia has quite a few non-met builds as well.

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It's either use this and only this for ur set up. Makes the game boring in variations. I say if u know what u are doing with ur build and u know ur skill rotation. But then again we look at minimax builds cause they pull of 1k DPS or more than the players who does it differently.

Don't use them, you only have to use them if you want to compete for the leaderboard. Other than that, as long as you deal 20k DPS, you are good for vet dungeons HM. If you can deal 25k-30k DPS, you are good for vet trials.

On my sorc I run a stam/mag hybrid dd set up just for the fun of it. Easily pulling 25k. But guess what happens sometimes when Ijoin a pug for a vet dungeon and they see me using a staff and dw?



Altough, this would be such a nice place if people would only care if the content get's done or not. From what I read in this forum many often encounter jerks in pugs, kicking them for not running a FOTM build or being at cp cap. It just doesn't matter if one brings that 20k to the table or if they know the mechanics. Many people just want to get things done as fast as possible and if they see others running a different from the meta build, they incline to kick'em before giving a proper chance to prove their worth.
However, one would be better of to avoid pugs and only play with guild members. But that's the advice people give to both sides, to the "elitists" and the "noobs"/ non-FOTM players. What a sad conclusion.

You do know that destro/ dual wield was meta at one point. And is still used on some templars. I used that combo on my sorc for the longest time for OL. That's why spinner/ elegant swords were so expensive.

So I'm sure most people that knew the game didn't think anything of your staff/ dw build.


If you want to compete at end game you need to increase your knowledge/ skill in game. If you just want to run normal dungeons, then do whatever you want. (Play as you want)

I have a toon that is mainly used for crafting but I also keep random builds that I think are neat and every once in awhile I go kill random stuff just because. But I don't go entering group content where I can't pull my own weight. I don't want to be that guy that places a burden on the rest of my team.

Nah, "play the way you want" doesn't mean you have to stick to normal dungeons. "Play the way you want" as long as you do your job. If you can pull 20k DPS, do the content that requires 20k DPS, whatever your build is. If the content requires 30k DPS, go for it as long as you can pull 30k. It doesn't matter if you use flurry and back bar destro. If you can taunt things and provide group support and survive the content, do it, it doesn't matter if you are a BoL using magplar tank or nightblade saptank or shield stacking magsorc tank. if you can keep your group alive and throw orbs, combat prayer, it doesn't matter if you are a nightblade healer or even sorc pet healer.

And where do you find out if something needs 20k or 30k DPS?
I only find other players making the judgement on what is acceptable and not acceptable. If something 'takes too long' but it gets completed, that is not acceptable to some but it is to me - who is right?
You have a couple of wipes on a boss and to some that is unacceptable. To me that is part of learning and improving.

Too mush of this is a matter of opinion.

So, for example, if you (like me) am unsure of your DPS, but have completed vHR a number of times (like me) its safe to assume your deeps is 20k+?

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

KerinKor wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It's either use this and only this for ur set up.

Welcome to MMOs, they're all the same.

Not true, i have raided in other games before and not once did the raid leader ask for what your dps was or your gear. Not once even on hardest content.

@flguy147ub17_ESO Other MMOs let them see your gear score and dps output...
You get asked here because we have a portion of players that find their own statistics and outputs as "private info" that they do not want viewed by others, and ZOS makes it so. So here we ask how someone does, we have weird tests on dummies to prove things in more extreme cases like vet trial teams.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

If the content requires you to pull 30k dps, you better pull 30k dps.

No content whatsoever in ESO requires you to pull 30K DPS. Other players may require it from their group mates, but that's entirely different.

Vet Maw would like to have a word with you. Oh you wanted to do vet maw hard mode? That's like minimum 40k per person. Even then you are struggling with that.

Okay. Let's take the 0.01% top difficulty content out of my equation then. But people who pretend that 30K DPS group-wide are required for vet trials in general are wrong because you definitely can beat vHRC, vSO and vAA in their current state with 9x 20K + 1 tank + 2 healers. I'm not saying it's going to be easy or quick or best, all I'm saying is : it's doable. HM and Maw might be a different story, and also no death or speed runs, but we're talking simply completion here.

What I'm fighting against here is not people who pull that kind of DPS : it's good play and ok as such. What I'm fighting against is people who believe that 25-30K is a minimum that anyone can and should require in any vet content. That is not true, and spreading this false idea keeps many "average-ok" players simply out of vet content, for no valid reason at all. That's harmful for the game and the community.

Don't need 40k per person. 30k per is more than enough. It's harder and takes longer but VMoLH is doable with 30kdps, non hardmodes is easy mode if everyone is pulling 30. You won't have to do a lunar cycle that way.