In one hand, we've got people who can do a little "snap crack pop and bam" move and then you're dead.... On the other hand, I'm glad I have more *** to focus on in my life than to extensively grind and research useless crap. But hey, hats off to all of you for trying.

Rjizzle09 wrote: »

I still to this day say all of this comes from people thinking skyrim works in this game. Alot of roleplayers or off meta players try to turn this mmo into a single player roleplay experience which i mean yeah you can do that BUT this isnt a single player play how you want game. Its an MMO. You dont have to play with meta builds just make your own BUT at the same time dont whine and complain about not gettin completes on things.

I think that's part of the problem in the meta v.s. non-meta conflict. Not that people are playing an MMO as a "single player roleplay experience", but that other people think that's what anyone who is not a meta-sheep is doing.

The meta-sheep set their standard at doing just under the mathematically maximum possible DPS and look down on anyone who does not meet or strive toward that one particular goal. The game sets the standard at something challenging but not overly restricting and doesn't give a flying *** how you get there.

As a side note, this often leads to odd situations where the meta-sheep think there is only one way to do things and actually forget that there are other ways, which sometimes work even better than the meta.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It's either use this and only this for ur set up. Makes the game boring in variations. I say if u know what u are doing with ur build and u know ur skill rotation. But then again we look at minimax builds cause they pull of 1k DPS or more than the players who does it differently.

Don't use them, you only have to use them if you want to compete for the leaderboard. Other than that, as long as you deal 20k DPS, you are good for vet dungeons HM. If you can deal 25k-30k DPS, you are good for vet trials.

On my sorc I run a stam/mag hybrid dd set up just for the fun of it. Easily pulling 25k. But guess what happens sometimes when Ijoin a pug for a vet dungeon and they see me using a staff and dw?



Altough, this would be such a nice place if people would only care if the content get's done or not. From what I read in this forum many often encounter jerks in pugs, kicking them for not running a FOTM build or being at cp cap. It just doesn't matter if one brings that 20k to the table or if they know the mechanics. Many people just want to get things done as fast as possible and if they see others running a different from the meta build, they incline to kick'em before giving a proper chance to prove their worth.
However, one would be better of to avoid pugs and only play with guild members. But that's the advice people give to both sides, to the "elitists" and the "noobs"/ non-FOTM players. What a sad conclusion.

Take 2 player with exactly the same BiS gear. One pulls 10k more DPS than the other.

Well, one of the guys is missing 50% of his light attacks (4k DPS lost right there), has a few seconds downtime on DoTs, (probably another 4k) and is dying quite often.

DPS is not just gear. Its buff and debuff management, weaving and awareness.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

If the content requires you to pull 30k dps, you better pull 30k dps.

No content whatsoever in ESO requires you to pull 30K DPS. Other players may require it from their group mates, but that's entirely different.

Vet trial does. If you cannot pull 30k DPS, no way you can complete a vet trial.

Integral1900 wrote: »

Because to many players, efficiency does not equal fun and vice versa. For instance, playing distance versus melee is a totally different game experience. If the "meta" requires me to play melee when my fun is distance, there's a conflict (looking at you, stamina bow builds). Inversely, if my fun is to play melee I might struggle to find a group for veteran raids since at the moment they're easier to beat with ranged characters.
Just a few examples.

You can pull 20k DPS with a bow build. It is possible. xD

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It's either use this and only this for ur set up. Makes the game boring in variations. I say if u know what u are doing with ur build and u know ur skill rotation. But then again we look at minimax builds cause they pull of 1k DPS or more than the players who does it differently.

its, because the whole game is dependent upon DPS.the design, was shortsighted. tanking utility CC and for a large part healing is non-existent. Helaing becomes needed in VR trials as well as a tank. the rest of the content is yawn

It's simple: if you don't like PvE progression, don't participate in it. Veteran dungeons are for people who want to do them. If you want to run easy-mode normal dungeons all day, that's up to you. If you want to run crap green gear, run hybrid sorcerer builds as a DPS, and expect to have a chance in any veteran dungeon / trial, don't be surprised about being mysteriously kicked out.

Min/max is linear in design and will always exist regardless of what you want.

Where are all the guilds that run dungeons and trials just for the completion?
There are people who couldn't care less about Minmaxing.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Ulfgarde wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Ulfgarde wrote: »

It's simple: if you don't like PvE progression, don't participate in it. Veteran dungeons are for people who want to do them. If you want to run easy-mode normal dungeons all day, that's up to you. If you want to run crap green gear, run hybrid sorcerer builds as a DPS, and expect to have a chance in any veteran dungeon / trial, don't be surprised about being mysteriously kicked out.

Min/max is linear in design and will always exist regardless of what you want.

Joke on you hybrid sorcerer is straight up OP because of Dark Conversion. xD

Then you have to waste 1 second on casting an interruptable skill that drains your other resource, which is likely semi-useful as a true "hybrid" sorc. This lowers your DPS. This also leaves you vulnerable.

The fact is that "metas" are strong because of the difference in versatility. You can have a skill that restores magicka / stamina, sure, but there are currently better ways to counter a situation than this, and that would involve removing this skill for the sake of ease of use, so to speak.

Is it fair? No, not really. It's just the way it's designed, whether intended or not. (most likely not :P)

Oh you were talking about PvE. Sorry my bad, I have a PvP mindset.

Here you go: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-first-hybrid-sorcerer-dps-for-pve-content

Ye. I tend to think of things from a more PvP perspective but I also try to think of PvE ways.

Btw, I saw that build earlier as well. Was really interesting to see because one of my mates was talking about it but forgot the link. Thanks Hopefully there can be more effective and unique builds like this.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

Then... don't copy the builds? Don't play with people that demand that of you? I'm not sure what you want. There's soooo many people that complain about this, and all I can wonder is: why don't y'all get together and form a guild? Like, seriously.

Is the complaint that people direct others to optimized min/max builds when they ask for help? If you want there to be guides for not-quite-optimized builds, try making them yourself and share them.

You've got me totally lost, what's the precise thing you dislike?

Sharing a non minimax build will be a joke to meta players. And I don't see any builds now a days or on YouTube. Try to search for the non meta youtubers. But rarely got those rare gem builds now a days. Even with players say magic is better than stam. (But they still say stam is still good but not really this patch cause the substain magicka has.)

I wonder why there aren't any non-meta guides? Could it be that people seek guides to learn how to get better at a game, not worse? Why would anyone need a guide to teach them how to play a game inefficiently?

So much this ^^. Min/maxing is about efficiency. Why do people complain about builds that have a little math behind them? Pve content is so boring that the fun part is combining gear + skill rotations to come up with the most effective build. As for the OP's reference to BiS-only set-ups...I doubt that many people complain if you pull the same numbers using full Oblivion's Foe spamming soul trap (we'd be really impressed actually).

IronCrystal wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

If the content requires you to pull 30k dps, you better pull 30k dps.

No content whatsoever in ESO requires you to pull 30K DPS. Other players may require it from their group mates, but that's entirely different.

Vet Maw would like to have a word with you. Oh you wanted to do vet maw hard mode? That's like minimum 40k per person. Even then you are struggling with that.

Okay. Let's take the 0.01% top difficulty content out of my equation then. But people who pretend that 30K DPS group-wide are required for vet trials in general are wrong because you definitely can beat vHRC, vSO and vAA in their current state with 9x 20K + 1 tank + 2 healers. I'm not saying it's going to be easy or quick or best, all I'm saying is : it's doable. HM and Maw might be a different story, and also no death or speed runs, but we're talking simply completion here.

What I'm fighting against here is not people who pull that kind of DPS : it's good play and ok as such. What I'm fighting against is people who believe that 25-30K is a minimum that anyone can and should require in any vet content. That is not true, and spreading this false idea keeps many "average-ok" players simply out of vet content, for no valid reason at all. That's harmful for the game and the community.