This game bores me with minimax DPS players and set up.

hmsdragonfly

disintegr8 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

Then... don't copy the builds? Don't play with people that demand that of you? I'm not sure what you want. There's soooo many people that complain about this, and all I can wonder is: why don't y'all get together and form a guild? Like, seriously.

Is the complaint that people direct others to optimized min/max builds when they ask for help? If you want there to be guides for not-quite-optimized builds, try making them yourself and share them.

You've got me totally lost, what's the precise thing you dislike?

Sharing a non minimax build will be a joke to meta players. And I don't see any builds now a days or on YouTube. Try to search for the non meta youtubers. But rarely got those rare gem builds now a days. Even with players say magic is better than stam. (But they still say stam is still good but not really this patch cause the substain magicka has.)

Go to Deltia, he's one of the biggest ESO YouTubers and has non meta builds. I literally searched for 5 seconds and found it. Did you even look? Shoot even Alcast, who runs vet trials will put up a non meta build every so often. So again did you even look. Or did you just talk out your sanctum ophida?

Nice wording you use there. Alcast and Deltia are well known guys, so I think it's save to say he knows them.

BTW, if YOU take a look at e.g. Alcast's magicka DD builds you will find BSW and Moondancer, BSW and Moondancer, BSW and Moondancer...

Alcast also has quite a few non-meta builds actually. Those you mentioned are his BiS setups made for vet trials.

http://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-sorcerer-frost-build-pve/
http://alcasthq.com/stamina-dragonknight-burst-build-pvp2/
http://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-sorcerer-heavy-armor-build-pvp1/

Deltia has quite a few non-met builds as well.

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It's either use this and only this for ur set up. Makes the game boring in variations. I say if u know what u are doing with ur build and u know ur skill rotation. But then again we look at minimax builds cause they pull of 1k DPS or more than the players who does it differently.

Don't use them, you only have to use them if you want to compete for the leaderboard. Other than that, as long as you deal 20k DPS, you are good for vet dungeons HM. If you can deal 25k-30k DPS, you are good for vet trials.

On my sorc I run a stam/mag hybrid dd set up just for the fun of it. Easily pulling 25k. But guess what happens sometimes when Ijoin a pug for a vet dungeon and they see me using a staff and dw?



Altough, this would be such a nice place if people would only care if the content get's done or not. From what I read in this forum many often encounter jerks in pugs, kicking them for not running a FOTM build or being at cp cap. It just doesn't matter if one brings that 20k to the table or if they know the mechanics. Many people just want to get things done as fast as possible and if they see others running a different from the meta build, they incline to kick'em before giving a proper chance to prove their worth.
However, one would be better of to avoid pugs and only play with guild members. But that's the advice people give to both sides, to the "elitists" and the "noobs"/ non-FOTM players. What a sad conclusion.

You do know that destro/ dual wield was meta at one point. And is still used on some templars. I used that combo on my sorc for the longest time for OL. That's why spinner/ elegant swords were so expensive.

So I'm sure most people that knew the game didn't think anything of your staff/ dw build.


If you want to compete at end game you need to increase your knowledge/ skill in game. If you just want to run normal dungeons, then do whatever you want. (Play as you want)

I have a toon that is mainly used for crafting but I also keep random builds that I think are neat and every once in awhile I go kill random stuff just because. But I don't go entering group content where I can't pull my own weight. I don't want to be that guy that places a burden on the rest of my team.

Nah, "play the way you want" doesn't mean you have to stick to normal dungeons. "Play the way you want" as long as you do your job. If you can pull 20k DPS, do the content that requires 20k DPS, whatever your build is. If the content requires 30k DPS, go for it as long as you can pull 30k. It doesn't matter if you use flurry and back bar destro. If you can taunt things and provide group support and survive the content, do it, it doesn't matter if you are a BoL using magplar tank or nightblade saptank or shield stacking magsorc tank. if you can keep your group alive and throw orbs, combat prayer, it doesn't matter if you are a nightblade healer or even sorc pet healer.

And where do you find out if something needs 20k or 30k DPS?
I only find other players making the judgement on what is acceptable and not acceptable. If something 'takes too long' but it gets completed, that is not acceptable to some but it is to me - who is right?
You have a couple of wipes on a boss and to some that is unacceptable. To me that is part of learning and improving.

Too mush of this is a matter of opinion.

Target dummy? If you cannot pull 15k-20k DPS, i don't want to participate in vet dungeons HM. Well, technically you can, but you shouldn't, because that will not be fun for you and your groupmates.

anitajoneb17_ESO

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Target dummy? If you cannot pull 15k-20k DPS, i don't want to participate in vet dungeons HM. Well, technically you can, but you shouldn't, because that will not be fun for you and your groupmates.

This kind of rubbish again.
Maybe it's not fun to you but it's fun to most of us.
Dungeons, vet, normal, hm or not, even the greatest of them, are boring after the 100th run. Maybe already after the 10th run. Running them with an optimized, experienced group makes them even more boring.
Having people in the group who are new to them, learning, pulling under-average DPS, making mistakes which we have to cover for or find new solutions is what brings fun and diversity.
Please people, don't be shy to join groups and guilds, no matter your level.

Ep1kMalware

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Target dummy? If you cannot pull 15k-20k DPS, i don't want to participate in vet dungeons HM. Well, technically you can, but you shouldn't, because that will not be fun for you and your groupmates.

This kind of rubbish again.
Maybe it's not fun to you but it's fun to most of us.
Dungeons, vet, normal, hm or not, even the greatest of them, are boring after the 100th run. Maybe already after the 10th run. Running them with an optimized, experienced group makes them even more boring.
Having people in the group who are new to them, learning, pulling under-average DPS, making mistakes which we have to cover for or find new solutions is what brings fun and diversity.
Please people, don't be shy to join groups and guilds, no matter your level.

There's a time for fun and a time to be super serial. Hm trials is super serial time. Grinding stupid rng pledges = serial time. Farming gear = serial time. Other than that I can't think of any reason why I care if a dungeon takes a little longer tbh.

Maybe it's just how grindy this game is. Having to do things over and over becomes quantity over quality.

Magdalina

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Target dummy? If you cannot pull 15k-20k DPS, i don't want to participate in vet dungeons HM. Well, technically you can, but you shouldn't, because that will not be fun for you and your groupmates.

This kind of rubbish again.
Maybe it's not fun to you but it's fun to most of us.
Dungeons, vet, normal, hm or not, even the greatest of them, are boring after the 100th run. Maybe already after the 10th run. Running them with an optimized, experienced group makes them even more boring.
Having people in the group who are new to them, learning, pulling under-average DPS, making mistakes which we have to cover for or find new solutions is what brings fun and diversity.
Please people, don't be shy to join groups and guilds, no matter your level.

That actually has a merit of truth and is why I still pug, but there's only one way this can work, and that's if underperforming people are actually willing to listen to advices and attempt to follow them.
Well, okay, two. The second way is if you're able and willing to carry people who contribute pretty much nothing to the group, consistently get other people killed(either by not following mechanics or by not doing their role in the least) and refuse to listen to any advices you give, or hell even to acknowledge them, through a (veteran) dungeon, likely not getting any thanks for it or even getting blamed for the wipes yourself.
Are you?

Sometimes I am and just laugh over it with friends later. Sometimes it's either totally impossible or not something I want to kill a few hours of my life on.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

There's a time for fun and a time to be super serial. Hm trials is super serial time. Grinding stupid rng pledges = serial time. Farming gear = serial time. Other than that I can't think of any reason why I care if a dungeon takes a little longer tbh.
Maybe it's just how grindy this game is. Having to do things over and over becomes quantity over quality.

If you see it that way (which makes sense) then you (or anyone) shouldn't say "Stay away from vet content if you cannot pull your own weight". You should say "Stay away from groups which you know are expecting speed and efficiency".

Groups who want to be quick and efficient should say so when they look for members - rather than expecting everyone to fulfill those expectations and pointing the finger at anyone who doesn't. To which I'dd add that anyone with expectations should not use the group finder.

Non optimized players are entitled to playing vet content, with or without success. Optimized players are not entitled to expect everyone else to be optimized. They should stay away from group finder and state their goals clearly when they look for group members in zone.

That way everyone would be happy and would not always feel the worst from whoever they happen to be pugging with.

GreenhaloX

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Target dummy? If you cannot pull 15k-20k DPS, i don't want to participate in vet dungeons HM. Well, technically you can, but you shouldn't, because that will not be fun for you and your groupmates.

This kind of rubbish again.
Maybe it's not fun to you but it's fun to most of us.
Dungeons, vet, normal, hm or not, even the greatest of them, are boring after the 100th run. Maybe already after the 10th run. Running them with an optimized, experienced group makes them even more boring.
Having people in the group who are new to them, learning, pulling under-average DPS, making mistakes which we have to cover for or find new solutions is what brings fun and diversity.
Please people, don't be shy to join groups and guilds, no matter your level.

I agree! I'm not much of an achievement seeker, i.e. fastest time or no death runs. So, I'm ok with a group wiping a couple or a few times before completion. Short of soloing the vet dungeon, it is interesting and more challenging running in a lowbie group. My most interesting run was vet Elden Hollow 2. I was maxed out CP, but the healer and tank was in the lower 100 CP. The other dps was in the 200 CP. We wiped a few times against the final boss (didn't help that I fell off the side and die during two of the times.. ha ha), but we managed to complete it. I remember the healer saying it was her first vet run and was so exhilarating. Ha ha. Also, for you hardcore nothing is challenging you anymore types, try hitting those vet dungeons while having the Treasure Hunter passive and while your Warlord and Mooncalf (or whatever the majicka one is) are way low. It is a bit more challenging.

idk

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@sneakymitchell

No one has to run any specific build. I've never raided with a group that required specific builds. I have raised with groups that required a minimum dps though not the max possible.

As long as your getting enough dps your fine though I'd suggest always looking to improve.

If you take a look in the class specific forum sections at tamrielfoundry.com you'll see a number of builds that pull solid damage, though not all builds there are equal. You'll find that while there are many similarities there are also differences.

No one needs to run any specific build though we all should have an open mind to considering changes or to find the guild that works well for the playstyle we choose.

In improving u mean that. Using the same set up everyone else is using.

@sneakymitchell

No, mostly because there are several setups, not one, for each class that do great DPS. But what I mean by improve and basically be open to change is you may be trying to use a skill that hurts your dps or basically changing out one skill may help.

The biggest difference with DPS is delivery. Two players can use the exact same build and one can struggle to breach 40k while the other can pull over 50k without issue. It mostly comes down to skill.

However, the issue you have is really a weak point since most MMOs have one or two builds per class with a specific rotation that does good dps and ESO has slightly more variation, though I do mean slightly that still get rock solid dps.

Ozstryker

Glurin wrote: »

Rjizzle09 wrote: »

I still to this day say all of this comes from people thinking skyrim works in this game. Alot of roleplayers or off meta players try to turn this mmo into a single player roleplay experience which i mean yeah you can do that BUT this isnt a single player play how you want game. Its an MMO. You dont have to play with meta builds just make your own BUT at the same time dont whine and complain about not gettin completes on things.

I think that's part of the problem in the meta v.s. non-meta conflict. Not that people are playing an MMO as a "single player roleplay experience", but that other people think that's what anyone who is not a meta-sheep is doing.

As a side note, this often leads to odd situations where the meta-sheep think there is only one way to do things and actually forget that there are other ways, which sometimes work even better than the meta.

So... there's more than one way to skin a Kajit..?

disintegr8

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Target dummy? If you cannot pull 15k-20k DPS, i don't want to participate in vet dungeons HM. Well, technically you can, but you shouldn't, because that will not be fun for you and your groupmates.

This kind of rubbish again.
Maybe it's not fun to you but it's fun to most of us.
Dungeons, vet, normal, hm or not, even the greatest of them, are boring after the 100th run. Maybe already after the 10th run. Running them with an optimized, experienced group makes them even more boring.
Having people in the group who are new to them, learning, pulling under-average DPS, making mistakes which we have to cover for or find new solutions is what brings fun and diversity.
Please people, don't be shy to join groups and guilds, no matter your level.

I agree with this, which is why I don't mind pugging for non DLC vet dungeons. You don't need an optimal group to complete these dungeons and have fun. A wipe or two on a harder dungeon boss doesn't mean the group, or someone in it, is a failure. You get up, dust yourself down and kick the bosses behind, learning from the experience.

I don't PUG DLC vet dungeons because they tend to be the places where you find experienced players who call anyone who does not meet their criteria 'noobs' or 'scrubs'.

Azicah

No one tells you to stick to a meta build. Do whatever the hell you want. Become a mudcrab and lie brain dead in the sand. Kind of like this post.

cyclonus11

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like this game doesn't have as many roles to fill as other MMORPGs (not totally 100% sure since I haven't gotten to endgame in this game yet) which seems to result in a lack of endgame diversity. Where this game has tanking, healing, and DPS, other games might have tanking, healing, DPS, crowd control, and utility roles. And different types of DPS would bring different debuffs to stack, along with the buffs and debuffs from utility roles.

Here, you have meta tanks, meta heals, and meta DPS, and you got all of that covered.

Rev Rielle

GilGalad wrote: »

Atm good weaving and rotation makes a bigger difference than gear. As long as there is more than one possible build there will be an optimal build, even if it is just slightly better than the others.
So what is your point?

I agree.
The player is so much more important than any gear they have on their character.

If you want to compete in leaderboards and similar, yes you need to be on the knife's edge. But just remember that's perhaps 1% of the player base.

No way shape or form do you need to 'mim-max' or 'meta' to complete any of the content in the game.

alexkdd99

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

Then... don't copy the builds? Don't play with people that demand that of you? I'm not sure what you want. There's soooo many people that complain about this, and all I can wonder is: why don't y'all get together and form a guild? Like, seriously.

Is the complaint that people direct others to optimized min/max builds when they ask for help? If you want there to be guides for not-quite-optimized builds, try making them yourself and share them.

You've got me totally lost, what's the precise thing you dislike?

Sharing a non minimax build will be a joke to meta players. And I don't see any builds now a days or on YouTube. Try to search for the non meta youtubers. But rarely got those rare gem builds now a days. Even with players say magic is better than stam. (But they still say stam is still good but not really this patch cause the substain magicka has.)

Go to Deltia, he's one of the biggest ESO YouTubers and has non meta builds. I literally searched for 5 seconds and found it. Did you even look? Shoot even Alcast, who runs vet trials will put up a non meta build every so often. So again did you even look. Or did you just talk out your sanctum ophida?

Nice wording you use there. Alcast and Deltia are well known guys, so I think it's save to say he knows them.

BTW, if YOU take a look at e.g. Alcast's magicka DD builds you will find BSW and Moondancer, BSW and Moondancer, BSW and Moondancer...

Alcast also has quite a few non-meta builds actually. Those you mentioned are his BiS setups made for vet trials.

http://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-sorcerer-frost-build-pve/
http://alcasthq.com/stamina-dragonknight-burst-build-pvp2/
http://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-sorcerer-heavy-armor-build-pvp1/

Deltia has quite a few non-met builds as well.

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It's either use this and only this for ur set up. Makes the game boring in variations. I say if u know what u are doing with ur build and u know ur skill rotation. But then again we look at minimax builds cause they pull of 1k DPS or more than the players who does it differently.

Don't use them, you only have to use them if you want to compete for the leaderboard. Other than that, as long as you deal 20k DPS, you are good for vet dungeons HM. If you can deal 25k-30k DPS, you are good for vet trials.

On my sorc I run a stam/mag hybrid dd set up just for the fun of it. Easily pulling 25k. But guess what happens sometimes when Ijoin a pug for a vet dungeon and they see me using a staff and dw?



Altough, this would be such a nice place if people would only care if the content get's done or not. From what I read in this forum many often encounter jerks in pugs, kicking them for not running a FOTM build or being at cp cap. It just doesn't matter if one brings that 20k to the table or if they know the mechanics. Many people just want to get things done as fast as possible and if they see others running a different from the meta build, they incline to kick'em before giving a proper chance to prove their worth.
However, one would be better of to avoid pugs and only play with guild members. But that's the advice people give to both sides, to the "elitists" and the "noobs"/ non-FOTM players. What a sad conclusion.

You do know that destro/ dual wield was meta at one point. And is still used on some templars. I used that combo on my sorc for the longest time for OL. That's why spinner/ elegant swords were so expensive.

So I'm sure most people that knew the game didn't think anything of your staff/ dw build.


If you want to compete at end game you need to increase your knowledge/ skill in game. If you just want to run normal dungeons, then do whatever you want. (Play as you want)

I have a toon that is mainly used for crafting but I also keep random builds that I think are neat and every once in awhile I go kill random stuff just because. But I don't go entering group content where I can't pull my own weight. I don't want to be that guy that places a burden on the rest of my team.

Nah, "play the way you want" doesn't mean you have to stick to normal dungeons. "Play the way you want" as long as you do your job. If you can pull 20k DPS, do the content that requires 20k DPS, whatever your build is. If the content requires 30k DPS, go for it as long as you can pull 30k. It doesn't matter if you use flurry and back bar destro. If you can taunt things and provide group support and survive the content, do it, it doesn't matter if you are a BoL using magplar tank or nightblade saptank or shield stacking magsorc tank. if you can keep your group alive and throw orbs, combat prayer, it doesn't matter if you are a nightblade healer or even sorc pet healer.

Ummmm that was directed at those who aren't pulling decent numbers and aren't doing there assigned role. Since they seem to be the ones who complain and say play the way you want. If you can't create your own build that allows you to pull your weight then you should use another build or stick to normal dungeons. Hope that clarifies what I was saying.

If you can hold your own, then by all means wear and do whatever. If you can't, maybe you should take advice, use others builds, or play normal dungeons.

Tapio75

I greatly dislike min/max folks as well..

They advocate for builds that really are not necessary to finishing content. many variations and even unorthodox builds are quite viable.. Its just that in their eyes, these builds are too slow and thus should not be allowed or will be kicked.

Though the minmax lot is loud in many places, their lot really is quite small in general..

PS: Copying a build from internet never makes you a good player, you also need to know about mechanics and stuff like that..

More importantly, geytting good DPS value never makes you good player, it just means you can execute the commands in order someone told you to do.. While other players pull less DPS on dummy or in a fight, it might just be that there are more in their arsenal than simple damage build, versatility is always good but it cuts a bit off from DPS. Minmax onkly counts if you can mitigrate enough damage, not if you can also contribute in other ways while tanking or can CC tank for example without straining healer so much as traditional standing tank. Minmax healer plans for best healing numbers, perphaps damage absorption, versatile healer does damage and heals at the same time. Versatile DPS can also self heal or absorb damage if needed.. Perphaps have heals on offbar to aid if situation is about to get out of main heal, minmax DPS only does damage.

flguy147ub17_ESO

cyclonus11 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like this game doesn't have as many roles to fill as other MMORPGs (not totally 100% sure since I haven't gotten to endgame in this game yet) which seems to result in a lack of endgame diversity. Where this game has tanking, healing, and DPS, other games might have tanking, healing, DPS, crowd control, and utility roles. And different types of DPS would bring different debuffs to stack, along with the buffs and debuffs from utility roles.

Here, you have meta tanks, meta heals, and meta DPS, and you got all of that covered.

Exactly. Also t

Tapio75 wrote: »

I greatly dislike min/max folks as well..

They advocate for builds that really are not necessary to finishing content. many variations and even unorthodox builds are quite viable.. Its just that in their eyes, these builds are too slow and thus should not be allowed or will be kicked.

Though the minmax lot is loud in many places, their lot really is quite small in general..

PS: Copying a build from internet never makes you a good player, you also need to know about mechanics and stuff like that..

More importantly, geytting good DPS value never makes you good player, it just means you can execute the commands in order someone told you to do.. While other players pull less DPS on dummy or in a fight, it might just be that there are more in their arsenal than simple damage build, versatility is always good but it cuts a bit off from DPS. Minmax onkly counts if you can mitigrate enough damage, not if you can also contribute in other ways while tanking or can CC tank for example without straining healer so much as traditional standing tank. Minmax healer plans for best healing numbers, perphaps damage absorption, versatile healer does damage and heals at the same time. Versatile DPS can also self heal or absorb damage if needed.. Perphaps have heals on offbar to aid if situation is about to get out of main heal, minmax DPS only does damage.

Utility is very minimal in this game. In other games i could see Sorcerors using stuff like Encase in dungeons to root the mobs to control them so they dont run around beating everybody. Also makes laying down AOEs much more effective. But in this game nobody uses stuff like that for dungeons. Its everything on your bar should be straight DPS and max stats and nothing else matters. Its such a DPS focused game imo.

Moiskormoimi

So.. don't go to min/max groups? Found a guild/ group that runs it all regardless where you can be whatever it is you want to run? No, it won't be optimal but at least you won't be bored and you'll have fun?

DragonBound

I have no idea why this topic has gone so long there should be no reason, I do not like the meta either but it exists in a bad way. I think everything should be closer to the meta so we have more options to play how we want to for the most part. However since it is there and clearly in certain things where a certain skills will drastically out perform you still have to choose it, and yea people are right you can play in different ways for example the tank is not the only one who can do cc, and does not mean they should always be the only ones, however in vets and trials you do need a certain number of dps otherwise people might start dying.

And your right it does make the game more boring.

DragonBound

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

KerinKor wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It's either use this and only this for ur set up.

Welcome to MMOs, they're all the same.

Not true, i have raided in other games before and not once did the raid leader ask for what your dps was or your gear. Not once even on hardest content.

@flguy147ub17_ESO Other MMOs let them see your gear score and dps output...
You get asked here because we have a portion of players that find their own statistics and outputs as "private info" that they do not want viewed by others, and ZOS makes it so. So here we ask how someone does, we have weird tests on dummies to prove things in more extreme cases like vet trial teams.

Not many mmorpgs do this, in fact I think it is maybe one or two and most people do not agree with it including me, it is no ones business, if I am under performing you will know.

DragonBound

cpuScientist wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

Then... don't copy the builds? Don't play with people that demand that of you? I'm not sure what you want. There's soooo many people that complain about this, and all I can wonder is: why don't y'all get together and form a guild? Like, seriously.

Is the complaint that people direct others to optimized min/max builds when they ask for help? If you want there to be guides for not-quite-optimized builds, try making them yourself and share them.

You've got me totally lost, what's the precise thing you dislike?

Sharing a non minimax build will be a joke to meta players. And I don't see any builds now a days or on YouTube. Try to search for the non meta youtubers. But rarely got those rare gem builds now a days. Even with players say magic is better than stam. (But they still say stam is still good but not really this patch cause the substain magicka has.)

Go to Deltia, he's one of the biggest ESO YouTubers and has non meta builds. I literally searched for 5 seconds and found it. Did you even look? Shoot even Alcast, who runs vet trials will put up a non meta build every so often. So again did you even look. Or did you just talk out your sanctum ophida?

I looked at them and it seems to be they are meta since everyone is running most of his builds, sure you see a few rare ones but the majority of unique builds seem to be done in pvp, there is a youtuber who makes really cool pvp builds that I know of.

Shivvies

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

KerinKor wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It's either use this and only this for ur set up.

Welcome to MMOs, they're all the same.

Not true, i have raided in other games before and not once did the raid leader ask for what your dps was or your gear. Not once even on hardest content.

Probably because most other games let you see others' dps as well.

I lead raids in multiple games (not in ESO, I'm pretty new to it and 20Kish is more or less what I can do for now standing still and shooting but it is getting better) and I prefer people I like over people performing better. This does not mean the whole ambiance is not compeltely different due to one simple difference, though.

I can see everyone's breakdown in TSW for insatnce and if the content is getting done, I just suggest, nicely, ways to improve their dps but do not force or require.

If the content is not being done I again nicely, without hurting anyone can say "from the breakdown of our performance last raid I can see that we're lacking in this and that - please all be mindful of this and follow these guides I wrote to be able to perform enough to contribute to killing this thing." Worst case scenario, I ask the whole group to reconsider if they want to do this hardest content in the game because if they do they need to up their game to a predefined level that is clearly backable with data from raid attempts.

I never once called a min/maxer or an elitist in such games.

Although it is a double edged sword and yes, it opens up a problematic elitism tool but I do think not being able to see others' dps breakdowns is contributing to this "pull this much dps or do normals."

It is truly not easy to help people improve wihtout seeing where they are lacking...

Cheers...

flizomica

If you are worried about minmaxing while not doing vet trials, then you are wasting your time.

All but the hardest content in the game can be cleared with an average build. If you can consistently do 20k dps all of the dungeon content will be extremely easy. And that's really not a hard number to achieve, with decent gear and a decent rotation. Whip + light attack weaving on my DK is 20k dps by itself..

IronCrystal

cpuScientist wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

If the content requires you to pull 30k dps, you better pull 30k dps.

No content whatsoever in ESO requires you to pull 30K DPS. Other players may require it from their group mates, but that's entirely different.

Vet Maw would like to have a word with you. Oh you wanted to do vet maw hard mode? That's like minimum 40k per person. Even then you are struggling with that.

Okay. Let's take the 0.01% top difficulty content out of my equation then. But people who pretend that 30K DPS group-wide are required for vet trials in general are wrong because you definitely can beat vHRC, vSO and vAA in their current state with 9x 20K + 1 tank + 2 healers. I'm not saying it's going to be easy or quick or best, all I'm saying is : it's doable. HM and Maw might be a different story, and also no death or speed runs, but we're talking simply completion here.

What I'm fighting against here is not people who pull that kind of DPS : it's good play and ok as such. What I'm fighting against is people who believe that 25-30K is a minimum that anyone can and should require in any vet content. That is not true, and spreading this false idea keeps many "average-ok" players simply out of vet content, for no valid reason at all. That's harmful for the game and the community.

Don't need 40k per person. 30k per is more than enough. It's harder and takes longer but VMoLH is doable with 30kdps, non hardmodes is easy mode if everyone is pulling 30. You won't have to do a lunar cycle that way.

Good luck finding a group that's wants to even attempt vet MoL hard mode where everyone is only doing 30k dps. That would be the most stressful time ever. 30k is very little for that content.

Koensol

LorDrek wrote: »

This game is totaly unbalanced, stam have only 1 option, vma dagger and dw + bow. Other options are weak.

The reason for that is because this game gives every class the freedom to use all abilities in the game, except the class specific ones. So basically you are going to end up with the same 2 styles of cookiecutter builds. One for magicka and one for stamina. There is slight diversity but they all end up being very similar in playstyle.

That is the paradox in this game. It gives a lot of freedom, but in the end it will result in a more more narrow playing field, because there are no limits. If there would be more abilities in the game, classes with their own unique styles, diversity would increase. It's pretty lame to see games such as WoW, SWTOR and Rift having more build diversity than eso. This game just doesn't have enough different options to reach the same result. Each class only offers a couple of viable dps tools for each playstyle. The rest is the standard stuff, i.e. Endless Hail, Flurry, Poison Injection, Rearming Trap, etc etc. A game like this needs much and much more options.

Flameheart

You don't need to min/max to do some dps in this game, but you need to accept that their are certain encounters which are influenced by direct and indirect enrage limits, even in 4-men-content. Accepting that and getting the job done - without shifting the responsibility onto other group members - is absolutely sufficient.

In addition it's a difference between using meta builds and doing enough dps. A meta build might be helpful to increase dps, but it's no guarantee. You still have to do your rota, maybe have an idea of attack weaving and avoiding damage/death by knowing onehit mechanics, moving out of red stuff or blocking/shielding stuff at the right time

My expections are low btw, I already appreciate it when a DD does not die that often by own fault and does not just use a twohander and wrecking blow spam for killing adds in DC2 at the netch boss. You know that you can change skills to adapt to certain encounters ?

If you aren't fine with that, please avoid vet dungeons and maybe do a bug report to Zenimax, because it was ZOS' idea to center this game around dps and supporting dps.

Flameheart

disintegr8 wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

Then... don't copy the builds? Don't play with people that demand that of you? I'm not sure what you want. There's soooo many people that complain about this, and all I can wonder is: why don't y'all get together and form a guild? Like, seriously.

Is the complaint that people direct others to optimized min/max builds when they ask for help? If you want there to be guides for not-quite-optimized builds, try making them yourself and share them.

You've got me totally lost, what's the precise thing you dislike?

Sharing a non minimax build will be a joke to meta players. And I don't see any builds now a days or on YouTube. Try to search for the non meta youtubers. But rarely got those rare gem builds now a days. Even with players say magic is better than stam. (But they still say stam is still good but not really this patch cause the substain magicka has.)

Go to Deltia, he's one of the biggest ESO YouTubers and has non meta builds. I literally searched for 5 seconds and found it. Did you even look? Shoot even Alcast, who runs vet trials will put up a non meta build every so often. So again did you even look. Or did you just talk out your sanctum ophida?

Nice wording you use there. Alcast and Deltia are well known guys, so I think it's save to say he knows them.

BTW, if YOU take a look at e.g. Alcast's magicka DD builds you will find BSW and Moondancer, BSW and Moondancer, BSW and Moondancer...

Alcast also has quite a few non-meta builds actually. Those you mentioned are his BiS setups made for vet trials.

http://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-sorcerer-frost-build-pve/
http://alcasthq.com/stamina-dragonknight-burst-build-pvp2/
http://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-sorcerer-heavy-armor-build-pvp1/

Deltia has quite a few non-met builds as well.

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It's either use this and only this for ur set up. Makes the game boring in variations. I say if u know what u are doing with ur build and u know ur skill rotation. But then again we look at minimax builds cause they pull of 1k DPS or more than the players who does it differently.

Don't use them, you only have to use them if you want to compete for the leaderboard. Other than that, as long as you deal 20k DPS, you are good for vet dungeons HM. If you can deal 25k-30k DPS, you are good for vet trials.

On my sorc I run a stam/mag hybrid dd set up just for the fun of it. Easily pulling 25k. But guess what happens sometimes when Ijoin a pug for a vet dungeon and they see me using a staff and dw?



Altough, this would be such a nice place if people would only care if the content get's done or not. From what I read in this forum many often encounter jerks in pugs, kicking them for not running a FOTM build or being at cp cap. It just doesn't matter if one brings that 20k to the table or if they know the mechanics. Many people just want to get things done as fast as possible and if they see others running a different from the meta build, they incline to kick'em before giving a proper chance to prove their worth.
However, one would be better of to avoid pugs and only play with guild members. But that's the advice people give to both sides, to the "elitists" and the "noobs"/ non-FOTM players. What a sad conclusion.

You do know that destro/ dual wield was meta at one point. And is still used on some templars. I used that combo on my sorc for the longest time for OL. That's why spinner/ elegant swords were so expensive.

So I'm sure most people that knew the game didn't think anything of your staff/ dw build.


If you want to compete at end game you need to increase your knowledge/ skill in game. If you just want to run normal dungeons, then do whatever you want. (Play as you want)

I have a toon that is mainly used for crafting but I also keep random builds that I think are neat and every once in awhile I go kill random stuff just because. But I don't go entering group content where I can't pull my own weight. I don't want to be that guy that places a burden on the rest of my team.

Nah, "play the way you want" doesn't mean you have to stick to normal dungeons. "Play the way you want" as long as you do your job. If you can pull 20k DPS, do the content that requires 20k DPS, whatever your build is. If the content requires 30k DPS, go for it as long as you can pull 30k. It doesn't matter if you use flurry and back bar destro. If you can taunt things and provide group support and survive the content, do it, it doesn't matter if you are a BoL using magplar tank or nightblade saptank or shield stacking magsorc tank. if you can keep your group alive and throw orbs, combat prayer, it doesn't matter if you are a nightblade healer or even sorc pet healer.

And where do you find out if something needs 20k or 30k DPS?
I only find other players making the judgement on what is acceptable and not acceptable. If something 'takes too long' but it gets completed, that is not acceptable to some but it is to me - who is right?
You have a couple of wipes on a boss and to some that is unacceptable. To me that is part of learning and improving.

Too mush of this is a matter of opinion.

Install Combat Metrix and if you are a DD in a 4-men-group and you did roughly around 50% of the total group dps and you killed the boss and succeded, usually all is fine. Replace the 50% by 15% in 12-men-trials.

Just for the comparison, I do lots of daylies as a tank (5 seconds waiting time in the queue) and when I get results that I did 30% of the total group dps with my NB tank while running 5k dps max, something is wrong. If the DDs are guys with 300+ CPs I find that even utter wrong.

Ep1kMalware

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

cyclonus11 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like this game doesn't have as many roles to fill as other MMORPGs (not totally 100% sure since I haven't gotten to endgame in this game yet) which seems to result in a lack of endgame diversity. Where this game has tanking, healing, and DPS, other games might have tanking, healing, DPS, crowd control, and utility roles. And different types of DPS would bring different debuffs to stack, along with the buffs and debuffs from utility roles.

Here, you have meta tanks, meta heals, and meta DPS, and you got all of that covered.

Exactly. Also t

Tapio75 wrote: »

I greatly dislike min/max folks as well..

They advocate for builds that really are not necessary to finishing content. many variations and even unorthodox builds are quite viable.. Its just that in their eyes, these builds are too slow and thus should not be allowed or will be kicked.

Though the minmax lot is loud in many places, their lot really is quite small in general..

PS: Copying a build from internet never makes you a good player, you also need to know about mechanics and stuff like that..

More importantly, geytting good DPS value never makes you good player, it just means you can execute the commands in order someone told you to do.. While other players pull less DPS on dummy or in a fight, it might just be that there are more in their arsenal than simple damage build, versatility is always good but it cuts a bit off from DPS. Minmax onkly counts if you can mitigrate enough damage, not if you can also contribute in other ways while tanking or can CC tank for example without straining healer so much as traditional standing tank. Minmax healer plans for best healing numbers, perphaps damage absorption, versatile healer does damage and heals at the same time. Versatile DPS can also self heal or absorb damage if needed.. Perphaps have heals on offbar to aid if situation is about to get out of main heal, minmax DPS only does damage.

Utility is very minimal in this game. In other games i could see Sorcerors using stuff like Encase in dungeons to root the mobs to control them so they dont run around beating everybody. Also makes laying down AOEs much more effective. But in this game nobody uses stuff like that for dungeons. Its everything on your bar should be straight DPS and max stats and nothing else matters. Its such a DPS focused game imo.

Idk, I ran with a sorc tank that used encase/negate. It was op as hell. He had warhorn up like 100% of the time too. I'd keep him around as a pocket tank if I remembered his username ;/

Orbital

Hey guys let's all use non meta builds and get bullied in pvp/pve

SublimeSparo

Beardimus wrote: »

Not browsed the thread, just first post and I have to agree. Since U13 I've felt it's gone more of a maths game for Sorcs at least. Maybe its the introduction of dummies, but it feels very stale, slot all this stuff you wouldn't normally use blast away for Epeen.

I clear vMSA with 16k DPS on a real build in about an hour. Yet I'm told that's a poor stat. I have high burst,

Anyway every update it feels builds are more pigeon holed.

I mean who isn't running BSW now? And how many sorc Pets are about now just cos a streamer said a dummy once said.....

Hey ***.

Done a fair amount of comparisons on sorc between BSW, Scathing Mage and Necropotence, all gold divivnes, all same rotation, single target against the 3M health dummy and BSW is consistently the lowest dps of the 3

Orbital

Yeah necro bangs atm

SublimeSparo

Orbital wrote: »

Yeah necro bangs atm

I'm inclined to believe that necro where pets are useable (which from our experience so far is vHRC, vSO, vAA upto but excluding the Mage, and vMoL excluding the twins)[not sure about HM's yet, serpent meteor might be issue but could bee worked around] is the best option, but was fairly surprised to see Scathing out dps'ing BSW even on pure single target