Trait research times need to be toned down

Aletheion · February 2017

No

The reality is that it takes even longer than the OP is suggesting because when people typically start learning traits, they don't have high enough levels in crafting to do 3 at once, or get the max bonus time reduction. So it's more than 14 months.

Also, it's actually already been reduced by quite a bit. When ESO first came out, the 8th trait was 30 days with max reduction. Now it's 25 or 22 or something like that with max reduction combined with ESO plus.

The 9th trait, when Nirnhoned was introduced, was another 30 days. So it was 60 days just for those two. Now it's more like 53 days or something, which a week per research group shaves a couple of months off the process.

Yeah, it's long. But for an MMO, it's not too bad actually. Check out Eve Online if you want to see hard core long real-time days into the ability to make/use stuff. Years and years and years in that game...

-Aletheion

Lord_Eomer · February 2017

No

Simply "No"

mariskaas · February 2017

Not voting because yes/no is very black and white and I don't think the research times are the problem with crafting at all. The problem with crafting is the tiny reward you get for doing it (and by it I mean getting to 9 traits).
Just look at what you can do if you get to those 9 traits:

1. Charge money for crafting 9 trait sets for people - Well I guess.. But since 99% of the dropped sets are superior to any crafted set and many people are in guilds where guild mates only charge you the mats it is not the best way to make money.
2. Craft sets for yourself? Well again dropped sets are superior. For my stamDK I am just passing the time in NMG and hundings until I can get an opportunity to get VO. NMG and hundings are 6 trait sets which is not so time consuming to get at.
3. Get master writs: Yes sure. You have more chance of getting it when you have more traits, know more recipes etc. Still RNG, no sure thing. I only got one so far am at 7-8 traits for all mediums and heavy armor.

I cannot even think of more than 3 things it might get you and even these are meh. There has to happen something different to make crafting great again..
For instance: Make the 9 trait crafted sets on par with dropped sets or create new ones that are on par. Even if you think it should not be since farming trials requires a lot more effort, researching all these items does require you to have played forever, maybe you should get some type of reward.

Another possibility: If you have all 9 traits researched on all pieces of one sort: like all med armor you have all 9 traits; you get the possibility to change a trait on a piece. It will still cost you a lot of mats but you can do it. This would be huge and make use of crafting to improve farmed sets. I understand it may seem a bit too great of a reward to be able to do it. But just hink about it: to get 9 traits on all those items it does take a very long time and dedication to keep playing the game. So if you have spend all that effort doing that you only need one set drop and just change it (for a lot of mats still) and people who haven't done research spend that time farming.

Another possibility: 9 trait crafters can improve jewels. You don't have to throw away your blue drops anymore of you are a master crafter.

Maybe these rewards seem excessive, and maybe they are. But at the moment I feel like crafting is quite useless even though I like it very much. The current playstyle needs you to farm endlessly and pray to RNG gods. And since so many good sets come from trials.. It's not easy to find a farm group for a trial, for a dung is already a pain. Crafters need something. I don't know what would be the best thing but it's not reduced research.

Pixel_Zealot · February 2017

Yes

Definitely! Specially with 9 trait crafting being inferior now. I mean TBS is useless compared to BSW. Since when does that sound viable? I know it wasn't nerfed directly. Why should I spend so much time on researching 9-trait if it's all a waste of time,.

Cpt_Teemo · February 2017

Traits & Motifs account wide QoL please.

BRogueNZ · February 2017

Yes

deserve.. earned..worked hard for
y'all clicked a button or two

Not really bothered, as long as BiS isn't trapped behind it. People are already fleecing the new players for 6-8 trait gear.
12k an item? please

Sausage · February 2017

No

I think Zen made massive mistake, obviously they thought people will stick to the game because of CP-grind, but we all know that isnt working, its absolutely pointless to grind CP, so offline progression would've been much smarter option. Maybe they can reverse it. Listen to daddy next time, nuff said. Ive supported offline progression since launch.

Titansteele · February 2017

No

It is a right of passage, a simulation of difficulty seeing as there is no real difficulty attached to it.

Tai-Chi · February 2017

No

raj72616a wrote: »

you use monster helm set for head and shoulder, so you dont have to research these two.

research dagger and ignore the other one handed weapons.
research maul and ignore the other two handed weapons.

there. 50% cut to your total research time.

I like your sense of humour.

theher0not · February 2017

Yes

KaiVox22 wrote: »

Yeah not gonna happen or all of us who researched them the long way WILL revolt

That didn't happen when vet ranks got removed. I doubt it will happen if research times get toned down to something realistic.

I don't see what the fun is in spending months just waiting for a timer to go down to 0 just to start a new timer over and over again. It feels like something out of a mobile game amd has no place in an MMORPG for PC.

ZunaRoath · February 2017

No

Lol. I've been playing since early access, I'm super lazy for this of traits and researching and I've spent months without researching any traits. In time you get to have them anyways. Currently researching the ones I've left, which are all Light Armour, some from staves and bow, and a few of blacksmithing weapons. I don't think their times should be lowered.

Takes time, but one shouldn't be lazy like I was lol. If you do it everyday like I'm trying to do now it is quite easy and fast, I thought the Light armor would take like a lot, but I'm already half way. Get the TraitBuddy addon, very useful to check when they finish and what you need.

Vipstaakki · February 2017

No

If getting Master blacksmith was easy, everyone would do it.

Danikat · February 2017

Yes

It doesn't bother me much, although it's a bit annoying when I have to double check anything I deconstruct to make sure I don't need the trait.

But it does seem pointless. I'm pretty sure they only did it this way because way back when the game was pay-to-play it was another way of discouraging people from dropping their sub even if they weren't actively playing. If you dropped it then you couldn't log in to progress your crafting research, and then you'd get 'behind' on it. So if you thought you'd only be taking a short break from the game it might seem better to keep paying the sub even if you aren't actually playing.

Now that system is totally obsolete, except for the tiny reduction in research times given to ESO Plus members.

But I suppose at that point it was more work to remove the timers than to leave them in and ZOS were struggling to meet their promises for DLC releases so they didn't have time to look at other QoL improvements.

Slammer99uk · February 2017

No

Damn "want it now" generation

Linaleah · February 2017

Yes

UrQuan wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

After homestead the release of master writs people all of a sudden realize the value in master crafters? Sounds like your wanting to short cut the process that not many people have done....9 traits take a long time for a reason keep it the way it is.

case in point.

UrQuan wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

unfortunately, all the people who had to go through that particular annoyance (and yes, its what it is - an annoyance at this point) are far to bitter to want newer players to have better time catching up.

its the whole "walked up hill, in a snow, both ways, barefoot" mentality. I have suffered, now you should suffer as well.

No. It's more analogous to someone who spent years getting the certification they needed in order to get gainful employment in their chosen field (which doesn't have a lot of paying jobs to begin with), and they don't want the certification to become a quick rubber stamp that requires no time/effort to get because then there'll be too many people competing for too few jobs.

You need to recognize that allowing traits to be researched quickly would actively be taking away one of the ways dedicated master crafters have of making gold. It's not just a silly "I suffered so other people should suffer" mentality, it's something that is actively bad for the people who already put in the time.

Also, as I've already mentioned, the trait research time is the only thing stopping people like me from getting our armies of alts to do tons of writs and have great chances of getting tons of master writs. I mean I already have 8 characters doing max-level writs per day - if I could easily and quickly research traits to increase my chances of having master writs drop I'd increase that to 28 characters.

That would have 2 effects: first the master writ market would be saturated, and those people who put in a ton of time to get their 1 character to be a master crafter would lose their ability to make a decent amount of gold off the master writs they get. Second, the master writ drop rates would get reduced to make up for everyone with lots of alts getting master writ vouchers far quicker than intended. Do you want those things to happen?

oh bullcrap.

speeding up research doesn't equate it to instant master crafter. it equates to people actualy becoming master crafters in forseeable future, having it take OVER A YEAR? is insane.

Is it really so difficult for people to actually read the whole thread? It's only 3 pages long. It's not a big investment in your time, and it can save you from looking foolish.

As I've said multiple times (which you could have found out if you had bothered to read the thread), a moderate decrease in research time wouldn't be a problem. What OP was originally asking for was a major decrease in research time, which would have the effects I noted above. In fact, you were also asking for the rates to be halved at a minimum, which would lead to exactly what I described.

Linaleah wrote: »

moreover. having more master writs out there would be beneficial, because then they would actualy be more accessible to more people. unlike real life training, you are not actualy master at anything other then "I have played this game longer then other people" thing.

*facepalm*

Come back when you have some idea about MMO economies. Or when you realize that more master writs dropping than ZOS intended means they'd nerf the drop rate, and then everyone who didn't have an army of master crafter alts would be getting screwed over.

Like I've said, if ZOS did something as drastic and stupid as halving research times, I would be the one to benefit the most, along with anyone else with as many alts as me (12 characters at 50 in every craft skill, 16 more well on the way to it - if trait research didn't take so long they'd all be master crafters instead of just 1 having 9 traits in everything, and 2 others having 9 traits in just a single craft each). And it would screw over everyone else. Excuse me if I actually like to look at the big picture rather than just what would be the greatest benefit to me personally.

I understand in game economies just fine. i also understand that current ESO economy is oligarchy where the few keep the stranglehold on aforementioned economy vie combination of monopoly through guild traders and just sheer headstart they got on everything else, including crafting. leaving majority of the players unable to afford much through in game means and unable to earn it in any reasonable time because the catch up mechanics only extend as far as slightly faster rate of earning champion points... up to a point, but nowhere else.

this is not good for long term health of the game. even just halving the rate of time it takes to research - will STILL require at least half a year. which is a VERY long term commitment. but at least its more of a visible goal. but please, do keep holding on to your virtual monopoly.

Once again, I strongly urge you to actually read the thread. The fact that you keep on failing to do so means that you keep saying things that are completely nonsensical. Like me "holding on to my virtual monopoly," when I've said flat-out that I would be the one to benefit the most from a significant reduction in research times (I'd be able to quickly go from 1 master crafter to 28 of them, drastically increasing my master writ drops), and that I don't make any gold at all from crafting because I choose not to ever sell my crafting services. It makes it literally impossible to take anything you say seriously.

you keep mentioning that 9 trait crafting is the only thing crafters have to keep making money. but you are so very much not interested in that being undermined. ok then

god forbid it doesn't take entire year for a newer player to get their crafting leveled up. god forbid high level writs don't go for a mil each. GOD FORBID more people can afford larger homes, or just to upgrade their damn gear. maybe market SHOULD be flooded with more writs so that competition brings down prices to something more people can afford to pay. the disparity between what typical quest reward earns you vs the costs of things in game is NUTS.

I don't know you are so upset about benefiting from being able to have more crafters. I.. don't get it. so you'll get more master writs? what is so WRONG about that? aside from the fact that you are lying and you ARE making money of those and don't want the market to drop down to something manageable by more players.

Tai-Chi · February 2017

No

No; leave research times as they are. Master Writs are supposed to be end-of-game content for Crafters.

My 9-trait crafter (maxed out in all 6 crafts) wants her Sharpened Maelstrom Destro Staff the first time round in the Arena. She has learnt that "I want never gets" and is not prepared to work for it - so, she stays out. Her sharpened gold-encrusted TBS staff serves her purposes just fine.

KerinKor · February 2017

KaiVox22 wrote: »

Yeah not gonna happen or all of us who researched them the long way WILL revolt

This game's history has plenty of evidence that 'revolts' never happen in any meaningful numbers as most players don't care about such things enough to actually stop playing.

One example: just look back at all the "I'll quit" threads when CPs came about and those with large numbers of VR16s gnashed their teeth about the lack of CPs they were getting.

Prof_Bawbag · February 2017

Slammer99uk wrote: »

Damn "want it now" generation

Again, who has actually said they "want it now"? Yet another person that is responding to things that they hoped were posted rather than what was actually posted. I can't speak on behalf of everyone, but if you're gonna trash people's pov at least trash what was said rather than what you hoped was said just so you can appear all condescending and superior to those you disagree with. Most of us are big enough and ugly enough to accept our point isn't always correct, so feel free to disagree with the things we typed.

This is the problem with these types of discussions, many people who come into them from the opposite side of the argument have very little to offer so instead start inventing things so they can appear better than they actually are.

Kneighbors · February 2017

Yes

This is very simple poll, you can tell results from the start:

90% of the people who already finished researching will vote No. They already did it so no reason to nerf it now for others.

90% of the people who still didn't finish it will vote Yes.

Taking into account that most people on forums are devoted ESO players with hundreds of hours in game, the polle result will be 65%-80% for No, and only around 25% wil vote Yes.

KerinKor · February 2017

UrQuan wrote: »

MarkusLiberty wrote: »

How exactly does research time change depending on the order in which you choose to do them? When you stack every trait, you still get the same overall research time, regardless of order. Or is my brain completely useless today?

It's because the maximum number of traits you can research at a time is 3, but the total number of items that you can research traits on is not divisible by 3 (well, not for blacksmithing or clothing anyway). So if you research all 9 traits on 3 items at a time, and then move on to researching all 9 traits on the next 3 items, and continue that way you'll end up wasting 1 of your 3 research slots when you get to the last 2 items that you haven't yet researched any traits on.

Er, I think he's correct.

The fact that the last 'group' only has 2 traits makes no difference to the overall time to learn all 9 .. the time to research one 'group' doesn't depend on the number in that 'group'.

[Deleted User] · February 2017

No

The user and all related content has been deleted.

k9mouse · February 2017

No

Artemiisia wrote: »

tdannay_ESO wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

Hell no, its called Master Crafter for something, its not meant to be easy, and never meant to be something you have on more hen one char.

Now with the master writs, this finally means that the people like me, that has spend that time researching everything, finally gets what we deserve, and small rng chance at getting something more.

I think the OP would be thrilled if it wasn't "easy" but the problem here is that it's extremely easy and nevertheless it takes an artificially long amount of time to complete. A "Master" crafter should actually have to do something to research the traits rather than just waiting. Otherwise completion is not a sign of mastery so much as it is a sign that you logged in several times over a period of many months. Given the original pay structure of the game, forcing a player to spend several months to complete a simple task would have seemed quite profitable. Now, however, there may be better ways that are worth exploring.

The thing is, being able to craft 9 trait sets as a select few, can and is very profitable, so for me, yes this should take long to get.

There is also more to being a master crafter then that
Learn all traits

Learn all motifs styles

Learn all provisioner recipes

Learn all housing recipes

and the only reason this is taken up now, is due to master writs

Being a Grandmaster Crafter is not easy or it should be. It takes a lot of time, coin, and effort to be one. If one is not willing to pay the price, than one should not be one. Research times are fine as they are now.

k9mouse · February 2017

No

Guambodian wrote: »

No way. Everybody wants things to be easier all the time. Some things are just worth the effort. For the longest time people who took the time and spent the gold to complete research on traits, motifs, etc, were undervalued. If everyone else wants what current master crafters have, everyone needs to put in the same time and work. ZOS, please no shortcuts for impatient newer players.

^This

STEVIL · February 2017

Yes

mariskaas wrote: »

Not voting because yes/no is very black and white and I don't think the research times are the problem with crafting at all. The problem with crafting is the tiny reward you get for doing it (and by it I mean getting to 9 traits).
Just look at what you can do if you get to those 9 traits:

1. Charge money for crafting 9 trait sets for people - Well I guess.. But since 99% of the dropped sets are superior to any crafted set and many people are in guilds where guild mates only charge you the mats it is not the best way to make money.
2. Craft sets for yourself? Well again dropped sets are superior. For my stamDK I am just passing the time in NMG and hundings until I can get an opportunity to get VO. NMG and hundings are 6 trait sets which is not so time consuming to get at.
3. Get master writs: Yes sure. You have more chance of getting it when you have more traits, know more recipes etc. Still RNG, no sure thing. I only got one so far am at 7-8 traits for all mediums and heavy armor.

I cannot even think of more than 3 things it might get you and even these are meh. There has to happen something different to make crafting great again..
For instance: Make the 9 trait crafted sets on par with dropped sets or create new ones that are on par. Even if you think it should not be since farming trials requires a lot more effort, researching all these items does require you to have played forever, maybe you should get some type of reward.

Another possibility: If you have all 9 traits researched on all pieces of one sort: like all med armor you have all 9 traits; you get the possibility to change a trait on a piece. It will still cost you a lot of mats but you can do it. This would be huge and make use of crafting to improve farmed sets. I understand it may seem a bit too great of a reward to be able to do it. But just hink about it: to get 9 traits on all those items it does take a very long time and dedication to keep playing the game. So if you have spend all that effort doing that you only need one set drop and just change it (for a lot of mats still) and people who haven't done research spend that time farming.

Another possibility: 9 trait crafters can improve jewels. You don't have to throw away your blue drops anymore of you are a master crafter.

Maybe these rewards seem excessive, and maybe they are. But at the moment I feel like crafting is quite useless even though I like it very much. The current playstyle needs you to farm endlessly and pray to RNG gods. And since so many good sets come from trials.. It's not easy to find a farm group for a trial, for a dung is already a pain. Crafters need something. I don't know what would be the best thing but it's not reduced research.

RE the bold - no!!!

Please, drop sets do not need more improvement in some attempt to "help" crafting. that is the wrong direction. (Well, unless you just want to rename them from "crafting" to alterations and drop the entire idea of making stuff that's useful.)

In their recent morrowind discussion ZoS made noises about looking at doing something about the trait grind for drop sets token whatever and iirc made no serious mention about crafted sets as a serious concern.

Lets not also push for make drop jewels better too.

That said, i do agree the time trait system is out of whack - rewards vs cost/time. Not only with the rest of the system as a whole but within itself.

First seven traits - what? sharp, precise, powered, infused, nirn, impen, training - take a fraction of the time it takes to get charged and prosperous. Little gain for the pain for the few 9 trait sets. Complete the nines for a few pieces here and there maybe. Sure it will factor maybe a little in your master writ percentage but there are a lot of factors there, traits is just one among many. Any sense at all in doing 9s on shoulder and heads? You gonna fill those slots with crafted 9pc sets? The one in many your master writ calls for a 9pc set helm?

thats why i suggest a linear trait scheme - each trait has the same timeframe - or could maybe get behind a quicker-as-you-go scheme.

Azurulia · February 2017

No

Personally, I think it should take a while.

It sets aside those who have the dedication to actually do it from those who do not, or aka "I want it, and I want it now!"

Chrysa1is · February 2017

KaiVox22 wrote: »

Yeah not gonna happen or all of us who researched them the long way WILL revolt

Same thing goes for those who have been here since day one and grinded to get to Vet16. Then they brought champion points. Now you only have to get to level 50 and you're max, if you're other character is CP600

clocksstoppe · February 2017

KaiVox22 wrote: »

Yeah not gonna happen or all of us who researched them the long way WILL revolt

There is no way you are getting your time back anyways so why do you care?

me_ming · February 2017

No

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

KaiVox22 wrote: »

Yeah not gonna happen or all of us who researched them the long way WILL revolt

Things change. Just because I had to do something doesn't mean I would expect others have to do the long wait.

After all, my grandfather used to get up at 4am to work down a mine shaft and not return home until around 8pm. Doesn't mean we all have to do the same *** to earn the same wage. I've no axe to grind as I'm approaching 8 traits on all my crafting other than the woodworking which will all be 9 trait in 7 days.

Well, if you get black lung from research, please be sure to let us know. Alternately, you can do your research on a character, and then, you know, do anything else you want on that character while the research ticks. You can research 9 items simultaneously, which, if you keep track of your research progress, means you can knock it out fairly quickly... okay, yeah, it takes about six or seven months. But, that doesn't mean you can't run content on that character, or you know, play the game. It just means you can't instantly make Twice Born Star sets. (And, really, if you're crafting, most of the good stuff is around 6 traits, so you can get there in under a month, if you know what you want.)

Erm, eh ... way to take it to the extreme. I never once insinuated anyone should be able to make TBS instantly. Nor has anyone within this thread for that matter. A small increase that requires extra skill points would be better. I suppose that's me now wanting TBS in 2 days now, though, huh?

That's the problem with most people who dislike change. They see everything as a case of either or. No in-between. Because waiting over a year is deemed too long, we must want it all INSTANTLY!!!!

Well, then what exactly do you want with this change? To get things done as fast as you can or in other words, instantly, am I right?

mariskaas · February 2017

RE the bold - no!!!

Please, drop sets do not need more improvement in some attempt to "help" crafting. that is the wrong direction. (Well, unless you just want to rename them from "crafting" to alterations and drop the entire idea of making stuff that's useful.)

In their recent morrowind discussion ZoS made noises about looking at doing something about the trait grind for drop sets token whatever and iirc made no serious mention about crafted sets as a serious concern.

Lets not also push for make drop jewels better too.

That said, i do agree the time trait system is out of whack - rewards vs cost/time. Not only with the rest of the system as a whole but within itself.

First seven traits - what? sharp, precise, powered, infused, nirn, impen, training - take a fraction of the time it takes to get charged and prosperous. Little gain for the pain for the few 9 trait sets. Complete the nines for a few pieces here and there maybe. Sure it will factor maybe a little in your master writ percentage but there are a lot of factors there, traits is just one among many. Any sense at all in doing 9s on shoulder and heads? You gonna fill those slots with crafted 9pc sets? The one in many your master writ calls for a 9pc set helm?

thats why i suggest a linear trait scheme - each trait has the same timeframe - or could maybe get behind a quicker-as-you-go scheme.

[/quote]

You're probably right and as I mentioned I also think the things i mentioned might be excessive but the way it is now crafting (In the case of gear) is pretty useless and getting 9 traits is just not really worth it. I feel crafters should be able to get some more reward for their efforts in what shape or form I cannot say.

Karivaa · February 2017

No

No because many of us worked hard to research it. I've played since release and am still researching. I will be upset if Zos nerfs something else due to whining.