Morrowind: Slaves

srfrogg23 · February 2017

No, Morrowind will not have slaves that i can buy

No, probably not. It's an interesting "moral conundrum" in a single player game, being able to buy digital "slaves" to do your bidding and fight for you, but balancing combat in an MMO is a bit more precarious and MMOs tend to be a bit more prone to criticism from the general public.

I don't see Zenimax taking the risk that they'll be hounded after by a media infested by SJWs that can't wrap their heads around the concept that what people do in a fantasy setting is NOT applicable to their real life feelings about these sorts of moral situations.

AhPook_Is_Here · February 2017

No, Morrowind will not have slaves that i can buy

All of these arguments about lore in future real Morrowind are fine and good; but we won't be in future morrowind we will be in the Shivering Isles version of Morrowind which incidentally, will be going through a renaissance of politically correct ideals targeted towards mores of a far more restrictive other-world culture called "western society". I'm sure Sheo's version of Vivec will be every bit the Thomas Jefferson we always wanted him to be, except without the wig. I never liked the wigs. I guess nobody really did and that's why they vanished!

MercTheMage · February 2017

No, Morrowind will not have slaves that i can buy

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

This is not about lore, more about wanting to fulfill some power fantasy. No thanks!

Yes. I forgot, ESO isn't about fantasy at all.
Chillax homegurl, no one wants to enslave you.
It's just a game.

MythicEmperor · February 2017

Yes, Morrowind will let me have slaves

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

This is not about lore, more about wanting to fulfill some power fantasy. No thanks!

No; it is about successfully roleplaying an established aspect of a race's culture.

Celas_Dranacea · February 2017

No, Morrowind will not have slaves that i can buy

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

This is not about lore, more about wanting to fulfill some power fantasy. No thanks!

No; it is about successfully roleplaying an established aspect of a race's culture.

MercTheMage wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

This is not about lore, more about wanting to fulfill some power fantasy. No thanks!

Yes. I forgot, ESO isn't about fantasy at all.
Chillax homegurl, no one wants to enslave you.
It's just a game.

I'm a dude and personally I don't need ZOS wasting time on coding some "slave" feature for a small minority of people who are interested in some kinda slave-owner RP.

If ZOS wanted to improve ESO's RP value there's many other things they can do that would be more widely popular/useful than making it so you can own slaves.

Yes, Dunmer slavery is a part of the lore. No, expanding on slavery as some kinda feature for players to experience / participate in should not be a priority.

MythicEmperor · February 2017

Yes, Morrowind will let me have slaves

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

This is not about lore, more about wanting to fulfill some power fantasy. No thanks!

No; it is about successfully roleplaying an established aspect of a race's culture.

MercTheMage wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

This is not about lore, more about wanting to fulfill some power fantasy. No thanks!

Yes. I forgot, ESO isn't about fantasy at all.
Chillax homegurl, no one wants to enslave you.
It's just a game.

I'm a dude and personally I don't need ZOS wasting time on coding some "slave" feature for a small minority of people who are interested in some kinda slave-owner RP.

If ZOS wanted to improve ESO's RP value there's many other things they can do that would be more widely popular/useful than making it so you can own slaves.

Yes, Dunmer slavery is a part of the lore. No, expanding on slavery as some kinda feature for players to experience / participate in should not be a priority.

It wouldn't consume much time or energy. Just reskin an assistant and make it able to carry x amount of items. Problem solved. Heck, for those who don't want it, make it a reward for siding with slavers instead of abolitionists, so you won't get it unless you consciously decide that your character is pro-slavery.

Uriel_Nocturne · February 2017

Yes, Morrowind will let me have slaves

By the Three, I hope so.

The dust is starting to get thick in the homestead, and the garden is overgrown... something needs to be done.

And where the hell is that lizard with my tea!?

AlMcFly · February 2017

Yes, Morrowind will let me have slaves

I say YES, but hear me out.

I don't want slaves, and I don't condone slavery. When I'm in a videogame, I role-play the decent guy, as I want him to be a reflection of how I'd like to be in the real world.

HOWEVER, Elder Scrolls is "supposed" to be about CHOICE. Slavery exists in the Elder Scrolls universe during ESO time period. Anyone in Tamriel can become a slaver if they so incline. Allowing the playable character to become a slave is possible because it would be possible in the Elder Scrolls universe.

I don't think it's going to happen though. ZOS will not want to make headlines in the current political-activist happy social atmosphere.

Acrolas · February 2017

No, Morrowind will not have slaves that i can buy

"Most or possibly all of Vvardenfell did not join the Ebonheart Pact, and thus slavery, especially of Argonians, is still in effect."
http://blog.uesp.net/index.php/2017/02/22/more-eso-morrowind-info

The implication being that the alliances abolished it and continue to forbid it even without Imperial counsel.

And there are no skill lines being added with Morrowind, other than Warden, so any thematic use of slavery in Morrowind is already confirmed to not have a global mechanic or system attached to it. So yes, slavery in a narrative context but not as anything designed for a player's amusement.

ShadowHvo · February 2017

Yes, Morrowind will let me have slaves

Acrolas wrote: »

The implication being that the alliances abolished it and continue to forbid it even without Imperial counsel.

Remember that slavery in the Ebonheart Pact is only illegal against Pact races.

Breton, Orc, Redguard, Altmer (Though a bit frowned upon), Bosmer, Khajiit and Imperial are all still a free market, even within the Ebonheart Pact.

I personally would wish and hope that ESO: Morrowind will stay true to its roots and allow some form of pro-slavery action, rather than forcing the player to be a liberator of slaves, which I have a dreading fear that they will.

Being able to get that extra roleplay option of actually becoming a slave owner, or be the liberator of slaves would be super neet and interesting, and both options could end up with some very good rewards. Slave owners could get.. well, you guessed it, slave NPC assistants. While those that liberate them could get sweet loot in the form of housing, favors and maybe special quests from the slaves they free.

Adding options is the way to go, in my own personal opinion. Let the player themselves decide if their character is for, or against the act of slavery. Forcing us down one path is only really a shame.

Aliyavana · February 2017

Yes, Morrowind will let me have slaves

We should all own a few argonian slaves

MythicEmperor · February 2017

Yes, Morrowind will let me have slaves

ArchMikem wrote: »

[snip]

And becoming Emperor in PvP or running around with your Flawless title isn't acting out your power fantasies?
[edited to remove quote]

Gandrhulf_Harbard · February 2017

No, Morrowind will not have slaves that i can buy

From an RP/Lore point of view, yes it should be there.

From a game PR / moral point of view no it shouldn't.

Which is why I expect you'll be able to "rent" slaves for 250 Crowns a Month via the Crown Store.

All The Best

Alpheu5 · February 2017

MythicEmperor wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

[snip]

And becoming Emperor in PvP or running around with your Flawless title isn't acting out your power fantasies?

Fantasizing about leading a charge to victory of a territory or wearing a badge that signifies great obstacles overcome is not the same as fantasizing about owning a people and viewing them as property.
[edited to remove quote]

Uriel_Nocturne · February 2017

Yes, Morrowind will let me have slaves

Alpheu5 wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

[snip]

And becoming Emperor in PvP or running around with your Flawless title isn't acting out your power fantasies?

Fantasizing about leading a charge to victory of a territory or wearing a badge that signifies great obstacles overcome is not the same as fantasizing about owning a people and viewing them as property.

But they aren't Mer... they're Argonians. They are less than Mer by their very nature, and far less than Dunmer. That's why we own them.

I don't see the issue. Everyone should own at least one or two of them.

It's all roleplaying according to the lore. And in that very same lore, it's not just the Dunmer who have slaves, FYI. I promise, nothing more than the feelings of oversensitive Forum-goers has been hurt by the Dunmeri slavery trade in any Elder Scrolls game. It's just a game, people need to back away from the big red phone that direct-dials the ACLU...

[edited to remove quote]

TheShadowScout · February 2017

Enodoc wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

To tie into lore, ONLY THE NPCS should have them, especially the Houses Redoran and Dres. For morality's sake, no player should be able to.

NPCs having slaves is already pretty much confirmed, I think.

NPCs already have slaves. In Stonefalls, and Deshaan... some just in the background, slaving in the fields or somesuch, others part of a quest... some just implied by the presence of slavecages in houses... Now, why would anyone expect that be any different once we go to Vvardenfell with Morrowind?

Of course, the discussion here is more about -players- participating in slavery-themed activities, is it not?

And that, as evidenced by these discussions here, is quite a bit of a can of worms...

Now, the argumant has been made that its no worse then cold blooded murder, which player characters can already indulge in thanks to the Dark Brotherhood DLC.

Which of course lets me wonder... IF they would make some player slavery stuff, might it be as "Slavers Guild DLC"? You know... let any who wish to go there pay extra?
Then it would come down to... how many -would- pay extra for that, and how many would just feel disgusted and leave it be? I mean, I could see it happening. Both buying "slave" pets they can then have stand around their homes with a serving tray or, dancing for the amusement of their "owner"... just like other assistants. I think I dimly recall seeing some "dancing girl slave" in Age of Conan, back when I played that...

And of course, there could be an option for players to set their characters "capture enabled" in cyrodil, and some mechanic where enemy players who defeat them in battle can then capture them and then try to lead their captives to a "goal point" (while the captives convey their location in their alliance chat in hopes of drawing rescuers), to either turn them over to their alliance as PoWs for AP, or sell them to NPC slavers for gold (wheras in both instances the captured heroes unboubtedly would escape, being heroes and all that - meaning a little mini "escape the prison" instance to take back their freedom, likely ending with the NPC guard or slaver as final boss...)

...

But then there is the other side too, players who might want to indulge in abolitionism-themed activities instead... you know, free slaves, start revolts, murder slavers... no reason they shouldn't be allowed to do that, right?
Personally the idea of player-character "slavers" being PvP-killable anywhere by player-character "abolitionists" amuses me, greatly. Especially if they paid for their slaver sins with becoming blade of woe enabled, not like that'd gonna happen, but... it is an thought that brings a smile to my face.

Wrathmane · February 2017

No, Morrowind will not have slaves that i can buy

I feel that there will certainly be no Aragonian Slaves as they were all released due to the Signing of the Ebonheart Pact. I suppose that House Dres would have held on to their Khajiit Slaves as they would technically now be considered enemies as they are part of the Dominion.

AlMcFly · February 2017

Yes, Morrowind will let me have slaves

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Acrolas wrote: »

The implication being that the alliances abolished it and continue to forbid it even without Imperial counsel.

Remember that slavery in the Ebonheart Pact is only illegal against Pact races.

You two are missing the most obvious rebuttal:

It's not like you, the hero, ever get to choose a quest option that breaks current faction law, right? Wait, you mean that happens all the time in current game quests?

Faction law or no faction law, ZOS has already allowed us to break faction law ad nauseum. Quoting current law as warrant for why we shouldn't be allowed to do something, is an insufficient warrant.

Rohamad_Ali · February 2017

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

If they will have any slaves - consider them free already.
If they will have any slavers - consider them dead already.

Shadowscale is coming to Morrowind...

Beat me to it . But yes , we will free the slaves and take moral high ground by training them in our cult of Assasins and killers . Take THAT Dunmer society !

Draconerus · February 2017

Yes, Morrowind will let me have slaves

Technically it is a custom there. I don't see it being allowed for players due to political correctness though.

Uriel_Nocturne · February 2017

Yes, Morrowind will let me have slaves

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

If they will have any slaves - consider them free already.
If they will have any slavers - consider them dead already.

Shadowscale is coming to Morrowind...

Beat me to it . But yes , we will free the slaves and take moral high ground by training them in our cult of Assasins and killers . Take THAT Dunmer society !

Well, in Vvardenfell, we have this thing called the Morag Tong.

Heard of it?

No?

And those pathetic Shadowscales won't hear them coming either.

Tommy_The_Gun · February 2017

No, Morrowind will not have slaves that i can buy

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

If they will have any slaves - consider them free already.
If they will have any slavers - consider them dead already.

Shadowscale is coming to Morrowind...

Beat me to it . But yes , we will free the slaves and take moral high ground by training them in our cult of Assasins and killers . Take THAT Dunmer society !

Sorry for off topic but according to the lore shadowsales are trained for assassins since birth. Training freed slaves for assassins won't work I am afraid. But still... take THAT Dunmer society ! xD

ArchMikem · February 2017

No, Morrowind will not have slaves that i can buy

The fact is you cant have "companions" that fight for you, that would make them the same as summoned combat pets and would imbalance gameplay moreso. And with that out of the way, having one would be pointless other than being a morally heavy topic and nothing else.

scorpiodog · February 2017

No, Morrowind will not have slaves that i can buy

They will NOT risk what some players would do with a Slave system. Imagine if the *** spamming zone chat to get attention could have slaves.

With a single player game you can do what you want and no one is around to tell - you would just be telling on yourself.

But with an MMO you have a bunch of knuckleheads who go out of their way to offend people interacting with people who could be offended by "Slave Play".

Just the ability to name your slave (an why wouldn't you be able to name your slave ...) would open up a can of worms that I don't think ZOS wants to deal with.

FluffyReachWitch · February 2017

Oh for the love of Mara. The writing in the game so far shows that slavery is evil and owning people is not something the Vestige should aspire to. Plenty of quests demonstrate this. Plenty of side stories and dialogue bits indicate this. Heck, slavery is part of Molag Bal's sphere. And it's evil regardless of it being "part of Dunmer culture to own slaves" (when has that ever made it okay? never.). It's one thing for it to exist in the setting or for there to be important commentary about it through the writing; it's another thing entirely to give players that option and then basically condone it.

"But what about the Dark Brotherhood and all the combat in general?" TES is about dungeon crawling and combat. That's it. That's the game. And as for the Dark Brotherhood, most people actually aren't sitting around, fantasizing about creeping around with a murder-knife, and trying to justify it with false information about "why killing people with a murder-knife isn't really that bad" or "murder-knives here aren't so bad compared to other murder-knives throughout history".

Rohamad_Ali · February 2017

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

If they will have any slaves - consider them free already.
If they will have any slavers - consider them dead already.

Shadowscale is coming to Morrowind...

Beat me to it . But yes , we will free the slaves and take moral high ground by training them in our cult of Assasins and killers . Take THAT Dunmer society !

Well, in Vvardenfell, we have this thing called the Morag Tong.

Heard of it?

No?

And those pathetic Shadowscales won't hear them coming either.

Morag Tong ? You mean that girl in Kvatch that needed my help so the Dark Brotherehood didn't hunt her down and kill her ? The one with the long winded speech for her target in his pajamas before killing him ? The one that got down to 25% health while me an Raz were killing the Sweetroll killer NPCs and I had to run over and kill her target while she took a knee ?

Ya I heard of them .

AlwaysOnFire · February 2017

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Most people actually aren't sitting around, fantasizing about creeping around with a murder-knife, and trying to justify it with false information about "why killing people with a murder-knife isn't really that bad" or "murder-knives here aren't so bad compared to other murder-knives throughout history".

Exactly. Nobody is shaking their finger, "if you really wanted to be morally pure, you should have let molag bal kill, torture, enslave you! because fighting or killing is always bad!"

that's why we have combat but not slavery in the game. The game is about "if you try to enslave a bunch of people, they will be like 'not today satan' and come at you with knives."

The game is not going to allow you to do something that its very narrative punishes with either death, or the knowledge of death in 'future' installments of the game universe.

RebornV3x · February 2017

Yes, Morrowind will let me have slaves

I hope so I've always wanted my own little Argonian slave

srfrogg23 · February 2017

No, Morrowind will not have slaves that i can buy

AlwaysOnFire wrote: »

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

Most people actually aren't sitting around, fantasizing about creeping around with a murder-knife, and trying to justify it with false information about "why killing people with a murder-knife isn't really that bad" or "murder-knives here aren't so bad compared to other murder-knives throughout history".

Exactly. Nobody is shaking their finger, "if you really wanted to be morally pure, you should have let molag bal kill, torture, enslave you! because fighting or killing is always bad!"

that's why we have combat but not slavery in the game. The game is about "if you try to enslave a bunch of people, they will be like 'not today satan' and come at you with knives."

The game is not going to allow you to do something that its very narrative punishes with either death, or the knowledge of death in 'future' installments of the game universe.

I don't know about all that. The game clearly tells you murder and stealing are bad things, but it still lets you do it.

Why? There aren't any victims. It's a video game and what you see happening on the screen is a visual representation of a bunch of mathematical formulas working in the background. The characters don't exist.

The topic of "owning slaves" in ESO is a fun thought experiment, but there's no tangible victim and the morality debate is only as applicable as the thought experiment itself.

So, which is worse? Being a slave or being murdered? They both sound terrible to me.

Uriel_Nocturne · February 2017

Yes, Morrowind will let me have slaves

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

If they will have any slaves - consider them free already.
If they will have any slavers - consider them dead already.

Shadowscale is coming to Morrowind...

Beat me to it . But yes , we will free the slaves and take moral high ground by training them in our cult of Assasins and killers . Take THAT Dunmer society !

Well, in Vvardenfell, we have this thing called the Morag Tong.

Heard of it?

No?

And those pathetic Shadowscales won't hear them coming either.

Morag Tong ? You mean that girl in Kvatch that needed my help so the Dark Brotherehood didn't hunt her down and kill her ? The one with the long winded speech for her target in his pajamas before killing him ? The one that got down to 25% health while me an Raz were killing the Sweetroll killer NPCs and I had to run over and kill her target while she took a knee ?

Ya I heard of them .

How adorable.

Assuming that the whole of the Tong is no better than their newest member.

Let those lizard-beasts come. The Tong and the Three will be ready. And House Telvanni. And House Dres.

Shadowscale slaves... that has a nice ring to it, and I would be able to fetch an even higher price in the Tel Ahrun slave markets as well!

Yep, let those dirty lizards come to Vvardenfell. We'll be ready.