Vampire VS Werewold visual drawbacks.

Tapio75 · February 2017

I recently changed from WW to Vampire...

I begin to think.. Hmm, the visual drawbacks of being vampire are quite great compared to power gained while Werewold has no cosmetic drawbacks at all plus the WW form looks great.

Being vampire, you lose all the adornments, you lose all the markings and get a white skin and white eyes, at least as a Dunmer. Quite a beautifully made character changes to completely ugly. The stage 1 looks better though but the drawbacks are still there.

Wwhy does anyone need to so clearly see you are a Vampire?

While playing werewolf, i feel invincible, while playing vampire, i see NPC enemies everywhere with flame stuff, i am all too often either in brink of death or spamming drain to heal myself.

As a Magicka build sorc with WW, the werewolf form is still pretty strong, while playing Nightblade vampire wwith stamina build, the vampire is weak.

Are these things in balance considering all aspects, mainly, does the cosmetic drawback on final stage too strong plus the loss on adornments too big in all stages?

idk · February 2017

@Tapio75

The simple answer is both vamps and WWs have benefits at a cost. WWs take more damage poison and Vamps take more fire poison. With both lines it is, and should be clear the person is a vamp or WW for these reasons and probably to know they have access to certain skills.

WWs are not WWs most of the time and as such they are just like normal people until they transform and at that time it is clear and obvious they are a WW. However, they do not get any benefit from the line when they are not a WW.

Vamps on the other hand get constant benefit and constant access to vamp skills. Therefore they should always appear as a vamp.

Tapio75 · February 2017

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Thing with both habving a weakness which i have know from launch is that there are not many poisons users amongst NPC's wwhile fire users seem to be everywhere. This leads to Vampires having a bigger weakness in PVE than Werewolves which feel powerful everywhere while Vampires dont really feel that dangerous anywhere, even the drain is not as strong as it used to be, it does not drain *** of enemys health.

The thing with "Clearly seeing that one is Vampire or WW, is that in PVP where it matters, most people are using helmets, there is not that much time to look at characters faces to determine and threat assess the players character and skill choices. In big batles, you can see WW easily as well as in small batles, but the vampire is always better hidden but that givves no actual advantage.

It would be better to have smaller cosmetic drawbacks, make the bat swarm a weaker version of its current state and move it to be third ability instead, then make Master vampire being the ultimate instead.

Then it would be more in line with WW because WW is only using abilities while in WW form but Vampire is much more fragile due flame weakness than Werewolves poison weakness.

Werewolves are often running bit tanky builds while vampire is supposed to run more magoicka based with less defenses.

And why do i have to lose all the markings and adornments? Thats has nothing to do with anything balance vise.

idk · February 2017

Tapio75 wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Thing with both habving a weakness which i have know from launch is that there are not many poisons users amongst NPC's wwhile fire users seem to be everywhere. This leads to Vampires having a bigger weakness in PVE than Werewolves which feel powerful everywhere while Vampires dont really feel that dangerous anywhere, even the drain is not as strong as it used to be, it does not drain *** of enemys health/

This thought is to limited. PvP is also part of the game. Since NPC WWs and vamps cannot tell we are one of them I do not there mere moral NPCs can either. There is poison in PvP and we should not be able to hide our form as a result.

Tapio75 · February 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Tapio75 wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Thing with both habving a weakness which i have know from launch is that there are not many poisons users amongst NPC's wwhile fire users seem to be everywhere. This leads to Vampires having a bigger weakness in PVE than Werewolves which feel powerful everywhere while Vampires dont really feel that dangerous anywhere, even the drain is not as strong as it used to be, it does not drain *** of enemys health/

This thought is to limited. PvP is also part of the game. Since NPC WWs and vamps cannot tell we are one of them I do not there mere moral NPCs can either. There is poison in PvP and we should not be able to hide our form as a result.

So when a player sees a vampire or werewolf in battlezone, he or she changes his or her abilities accordingly to kill the werewolf or vampire better?

Or is it that someone simply happens to have flame or poison in pvp setting in their action bar and just happen to hit werewolf or vampire with that to kill it faster?

The way i see it, werewolves are in disadvantage here as they are more asily seen while vampire cant really be seen that well, no matter what people state and there are only 10 abilities in total you can use and those both bars are allready predetermined to be best for class, not for killing werewwolves or vampires.

What makes vampire so fangerous in PVP? I dont see that many advantages and naot that many using it there.

In the PVE side, i have only felt all the weaknesses thus far, i dont feel getting any advantage of being a vampire so you might understand why turning a carefully crafted character to silly looking monster is feeling a bit much.

EldritchPenguin · February 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Tapio75

The simple answer is both vamps and WWs have benefits at a cost. WWs take more damage poison and Vamps take more fire poison. With both lines it is, and should be clear the person is a vamp or WW for these reasons and probably to know they have access to certain skills.

WWs are not WWs most of the time and as such they are just like normal people until they transform and at that time it is clear and obvious they are a WW. However, they do not get any benefit from the line when they are not a WW.

Vamps on the other hand get constant benefit and constant access to vamp skills. Therefore they should always appear as a vamp.

But there are several ways to hide vampirism already, between full face helmets, disguises, and hoods. Plus, it's not like you can tell that someone is a vampire before they're pretty much in your face most of the time. 9/10 times I fight a vampire, seeing them use Bat Swarm or Mist Form is exactly how I find out they're a vampire, and at that point, I've been fighting them for a while.

Tapio75 · February 2017

@EldritchPenguin
Yeah, vampires are quite easy to hide, have been always wwith helmets and hoods and only using ability has been sa clue that one is vamp and for me, mainly mistform because in haste, the drain CAN be confused to Swallow soul.

It would be much more in par with WW if master vampire would be the ultimate and bat swarm an ability with bit weaker stats.

I dont do that much PVP but my PVE career mostly seems to suffer from being a vampire which is sad as it could also be fun and immersive.

idk · February 2017

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Tapio75

The simple answer is both vamps and WWs have benefits at a cost. WWs take more damage poison and Vamps take more fire poison. With both lines it is, and should be clear the person is a vamp or WW for these reasons and probably to know they have access to certain skills.

WWs are not WWs most of the time and as such they are just like normal people until they transform and at that time it is clear and obvious they are a WW. However, they do not get any benefit from the line when they are not a WW.

Vamps on the other hand get constant benefit and constant access to vamp skills. Therefore they should always appear as a vamp.

But there are several ways to hide vampirism already, between full face helmets, disguises, and hoods. Plus, it's not like you can tell that someone is a vampire before they're pretty much in your face most of the time. 9/10 times I fight a vampire, seeing them use Bat Swarm or Mist Form is exactly how I find out they're a vampire, and at that point, I've been fighting them for a while.

Yes, I have hoped they would fix the skins hiding vamp. Helms is a different story.

Either way, the design is for a reason and Zos will not and should not change it.

The way I see it is everyone has a choice concerning vamp appearance, cure or feed or live with it. Besides that, i care about peoples opinions, but agree that Zos has a good design concerning the appearance.

Tapio75 · February 2017

The reason is assumably to show people whio is vampire, right? Its not that much of coool as the vampire appearance is badlly designed, it retains so litle about the original character and the disadvantages gameplay vise feel much greater than anu gain.

The skin should somehow reflect the color it once was, not everyone being plain white. EEspecially with Khajit this is problematic as they all will just look the same after vampirism, for them the body and face marking are quite essential characteristics, they should retain some ogf that in vampire form.

What is wwith this ilness that it makes one being unable to wear any jewellery? Its not Van Helsing silver here anyways and thats traditionally more to werewolves anyways.

And the equation is wrong, being Werewolf makes you all powerful in PVE, almost in any build while vampire seems to be lacking in all other but one build where it still is quite fragile to all the fire mages that exist outside PVP, have you noticed, there are pyromancers are all sorts of NPC's wwith fire everywhere.

PVP is not the onl7y side of game.

But what i really want is that they improve the vampirism appearance, so that it retains some of the most important characteristics of character even in stage 4(Other than simple body shape).

Whats with the eyes at stage 4? I remember my last vamp having red eyes at stage 4, this one just has white eyes with small black dot in midle..

Lord-Otto · February 2017

Vampires look and are awesome.
Werewolves smell funny and have bad breath. And those fleas, man!
(>.>)
#teamedward

Tapio75 · February 2017

I wish there be Werecats.. Oh wait there is but they lack a skill line =^.^=

Riejael · February 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

WWs take more damage poison and Vamps take more fire poison.

Werewolves take closer to normal damage from poison. The 25% 'extra damage' is largely mitigated by the resist bonuses.

With that said the visual quality of both need to be revamped:

1. Vampires need fangs.
2. Vampires need customizations to show up (adornments, markings, ect)
3. Werewolves need better textures (they're lower rez, appear to be placeholders)
4. Werewolves need different fur colors, either allow it to be chosen, or match it to hair color.

Those four things are pretty easy to do and would alleviate much of people's issues with both. Not all issues but most. It'd be a good start.

mb10 · February 2017

Because you're a vampire 24/7 and thats not the case for werewolf.

You can see the visual differences when you change to a werewolf... clearly.

idk · February 2017

Tapio75 wrote: »

The reason is assumably to show people whio is vampire, right? Its not that much of coool as the vampire appearance is badlly designed, it retains so litle about the original character and the disadvantages gameplay vise feel much greater than anu gain.

The skin should somehow reflect the color it once was, not everyone being plain white. EEspecially with Khajit this is problematic as they all will just look the same after vampirism, for them the body and face marking are quite essential characteristics, they should retain some ogf that in vampire form.

What is wwith this ilness that it makes one being unable to wear any jewellery? Its not Van Helsing silver here anyways and thats traditionally more to werewolves anyways.

And the equation is wrong, being Werewolf makes you all powerful in PVE, almost in any build while vampire seems to be lacking in all other but one build where it still is quite fragile to all the fire mages that exist outside PVP, have you noticed, there are pyromancers are all sorts of NPC's wwith fire everywhere.

PVP is not the onl7y side of game.

But what i really want is that they improve the vampirism appearance, so that it retains some of the most important characteristics of character even in stage 4(Other than simple body shape).

Whats with the eyes at stage 4? I remember my last vamp having red eyes at stage 4, this one just has white eyes with small black dot in midle..

PvP is not the only part of the game, but it is most certainly part of it.

You want the benefit of being a vampire, which has a few very nice benefits, it comes with tradeoffs.

It is a choice, make yours.

Bobby_V_Rockit · February 2017

Just let facial marking and tattoos show over the top of the vamp skin and I'll be happy. I want my AD tattoos visible and my vampire visible too

LadyLavina · February 2017

Vamp does go from needs-some-sun to Marilyn Manson pretty quick.

Also I feel the need to share this.

Tapio75 · February 2017

What are these great and allmighty benefits in PVP for vampires, that make them so important for everyone to see easily.

(Not that anyone can REALLY see them even if they state so)

The time you see someone is vampire, its usually too late to change anything, you wont certainly go to inventory and change these swords to flame staff and skills from the line :P

lappas · February 2017

I agree that vamp stage 4 looks like *** just a extremely white face they could have done it more appealing Imo.

Pixel_Zealot · February 2017

lappas wrote: »

I agree that vamp stage 4 looks like *** just a extremely white face they could have done it more appealing Imo.

Yeah vamp stage 4 looks terrible. All your markings looks like you grew another few layers of skin over them. Not to mention the badly-made veins. In total you look like you're permanently decomposing.

Tapio75 · February 2017

lappas wrote: »

I agree that vamp stage 4 looks like *** just a extremely white face they could have done it more appealing Imo.

Yes, it looks like that clown from Stephen Kings IT... Its been quite a while since that movie so the decomposing clown look is aproriate i guess >.<

And note also on Werewolves, they should also be improved to somewwhat match the hair colors of characters and have some comparison in size as well so the sliders would also define the werewolf form a bit to make diversity exist, the animations could also be diversified.

FleetwoodSmack · February 2017

Tapio75 wrote: »

What are these great and allmighty benefits in PVP for vampires, that make them so important for everyone to see easily.

(Not that anyone can REALLY see them even if they state so)

The time you see someone is vampire, its usually too late to change anything, you wont certainly go to inventory and change these swords to flame staff and skills from the line :P

It's mostly the regen, Mist form/bats (as if they need something to 'warn' them), and Undeath. Honestly, any reputable PvPer will NOT reslot abilities on the fly to get rid of vampires. They either use Dawnbreaker or they don't. And if you're fumbling around in your menus? You're pretty much ganker fodder. So that argument that vampires need to be 'seen' in PvP? Yeah. Trivial at best. I've played as a vampire on three different characters and I've been against many on characters that aren't vampires. In neither instance did I find myself overpowering, nor them.

Tapio75 · February 2017

Yeah, some åpassives are somewhat nice, otherwise its just like anothe class, you recognoize it when an abbility is used that clearly belongs to that class or skill line.

Fischblut · February 2017

I have few vampires, but only one character who was created specially to be a vampire (unhealthy skinny, pure white fur, dark circles near eyes). Also khajiit has nice bonus (fangs and claws, I can't imagine a character vampire without those basic features), so I'm 100% satisfied by vampire visuals on her

Savage, scary:

Similar to appearance of old werewolf:

But I agree, overall vampires do not look perfect in this game; and skin textures are not pleasant for viewing when zoomed in too close, on werewolves too

Jamini · February 2017

Werewolves get far fewer bonuses than vampires. That's part of the reason they are easier to hide.

Boons to being a werewolf:

+15% stamina regen *while you have the ult on your bar*
Additional armor, resists, special moves (which are kind of lackluster), and a full heal *when you transform*

Penalties to being a werewolf:

You are vulnerable to Dawnbreaker and Poisons *while transformed*

-
Boons to being a vampire

+10% Stamina and Magicka Regen *while stage 2 or higher*
Reduced damage taken at low health *while at stage 3 or higher*
50% faster stealth speed *while at stage 4 or higher*

Access to Mistform
Access to Bat Swarm

Penalties to being a vampire

Stage 1: 0% Flame Damage taken, 0% Vampire Ability cost reduction, 0% Health Recovery reduction
Stage 2: 15% Flame Damage taken, 7% Vampire Ability cost reduction, 25% Health Recovery reduction
Stage 3: 20% Flame Damage taken, 14% Vampire Ability cost reduction, 50% Health Recovery reduction
Stage 4: 25% Flame Damage taken, 21% Vampire Ability cost reduction, 75% Health Recovery reduction

You take extra damage from dawnbreaker
You look ugly

Frankly, Vampire is objectively significantly better than werewolf and the penalties are weighted as such. Including the ugliness.

Tapio75 · February 2017

Yo be frank as well, those "boons" are quite MEH really compared to downsides.

As far as i am concerned, WW has no downsides at all, the poison damage taken increased in PVE is meaningless compared to every other NPC having some sort of flame abilities.

Jeremy · February 2017

Tapio75 wrote: »

I recently changed from WW to Vampire...

I begin to think.. Hmm, the visual drawbacks of being vampire are quite great compared to power gained while Werewold has no cosmetic drawbacks at all plus the WW form looks great.

Being vampire, you lose all the adornments, you lose all the markings and get a white skin and white eyes, at least as a Dunmer. Quite a beautifully made character changes to completely ugly. The stage 1 looks better though but the drawbacks are still there.

Wwhy does anyone need to so clearly see you are a Vampire?

While playing werewolf, i feel invincible, while playing vampire, i see NPC enemies everywhere with flame stuff, i am all too often either in brink of death or spamming drain to heal myself.

As a Magicka build sorc with WW, the werewolf form is still pretty strong, while playing Nightblade vampire wwith stamina build, the vampire is weak.

Are these things in balance considering all aspects, mainly, does the cosmetic drawback on final stage too strong plus the loss on adornments too big in all stages?

Elemental Defender is almost mandatory as a Vampire. So you have to weigh the benefits against spending 100 champion points to counter its weakness. One reason I have never entertained the idea that Vampires need to be nerfed.

As far as the cosmetic drawback - I think vampires look cool. So I see that it as a bonus. But I do agree with you that it should not erase your adornments if it does that.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · February 2017

Pixel_Zealot wrote: »

lappas wrote: »

I agree that vamp stage 4 looks like *** just a extremely white face they could have done it more appealing Imo.

Yeah vamp stage 4 looks terrible. All your markings looks like you grew another few layers of skin over them. Not to mention the badly-made veins. In total you look like you're permanently decomposing.

That's because you are decomposing...why do you think your healing rate drops as you starve your self? its cause your body will no longer regenerate and when it don't regenerate it starts decomposing.

As a Vampire your Undead so why wouldn't you decay?

purple-magicb16_ESO · February 2017

Vamps can use clothing to hide appearance. They also have double bloody mara that promotes satiety reducing (if not eliminating) the need to feed. But I do feel for them as op pointed out flame spells and weapons are everywhere. Perhaps some counter ability to this, extinguishment, that disrupts and negates fire spells/weapon effects?

AzuraKin · February 2017

vampire primary use: self healing ult that moves iwth you.

ww increased power must take damage to lengthen time in form.

Cadbury · February 2017

I think alot of the issues regarding Vamp/WW could be solved if they'd allow us to become Hybrids like Michael in the Underworld series.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · February 2017

Cadbury wrote: »

I think alot of the issues regarding Vamp/WW could be solved if they'd allow us to become Hybrids like Michael in the Underworld series.

How about No.