Why is every Magicka DPS mostly the same?

Seraphayel · February 2017

srfrogg23 wrote: »

2: I am only playing my character, not everyone else's, so I don't get bored with the builds. I'm more focused on keeping my dps up than anything else, so watching what other people do isn't high on my list of things to do.

Don't you see the same issue here? You can play your class but you are still forced to use 2, 3, 4, 5 skills that you need to use every time just because they are too good. And in the end it results in the same spec with little tweaks and changes. So it really doesn't matter if you're just playing you're class, in the end it's mostly the same. I mean players like Alcast (thanks for the good work by the way) is providing different builds but in the end they tend to be the same. As I said, I don't want to discuss Stamina here, especially not when it's even worse then Magicka.

As I said, I played all of the classes. Sure not all of them in endgame but I can already play their “end game specs“ in lower levels and it really doesn't matter if I play the DK or if I play the Templar, I am using similar skills and the feeling is nearly the same. It doesn't matter if I throw Blazing Spear instead of Eruption, the feeling and the gameplay is identical except the animation.

@Callous2208 I said you can arrange the bars with every class using similar skills so that you don't even need to see or know the bars, you only need to know one layout:

Main Bar:

1. AoE DoT
2. AoE DoT
3. Filler
4. Finisher / Proc
5. Buff
6. Ultimate

So 1. is always Blockade, 5. is always Inner Light, 6. is always Meteor. 2, 3 and 4 might be different skills but doing the exact same thing. Doesn't matter if 2. is Eruption, Liquid Lightning or Blazing Spear, it's all the same playstyle.

So where is the variety? Where are unique (somehow viable) specs? They're non existent.

bulbousb16_ESO · February 2017

Summary of this thread: If you ignore the differences, everything is the same.

KisoValley · February 2017

Stam is much worse lmao

Anti_Virus · February 2017

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

Have you seen stam builds?

This^^^

Seraphayel · February 2017

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Summary of this thread: If you ignore the differences, everything is the same.

What differences? That's what I am asking for. Difference between spamming Force Pulse or Funnel Health? Difference between Eruption or Liquid Lightning? Difference between Meteor and Meteor?

If we don't look at the names of the skills and solely focus on the “build scheme“ it's pretty obvious that the differences are minimal.

hedna123b14_ESO · February 2017

Seraphayel wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

2: I am only playing my character, not everyone else's, so I don't get bored with the builds. I'm more focused on keeping my dps up than anything else, so watching what other people do isn't high on my list of things to do.

Don't you see the same issue here? You can play your class but you are still forced to use 2, 3, 4, 5 skills that you need to use every time just because they are too good. And in the end it results in the same spec with little tweaks and changes. So it really doesn't matter if you're just playing you're class, in the end it's mostly the same. I mean players like Alcast (thanks for the good work by the way) is providing different builds but in the end they tend to be the same. As I said, I don't want to discuss Stamina here, especially not when it's even worse then Magicka.

As I said, I played all of the classes. Sure not all of them in endgame but I can already play their “end game specs“ in lower levels and it really doesn't matter if I play the DK or if I play the Templar, I am using similar skills and the feeling is nearly the same. It doesn't matter if I throw Blazing Spear instead of Eruption, the feeling and the gameplay is identical except the animation.

@Callous2208 I said you can arrange the bars with every class using similar skills so that you don't even need to see or know the bars, you only need to know one layout:

Main Bar:

1. AoE DoT
2. AoE DoT
3. Filler
4. Finisher / Proc
5. Buff
6. Ultimate

So 1. is always Blockade, 5. is always Inner Light, 6. is always Meteor. 2, 3 and 4 might be different skills but doing the exact same thing. Doesn't matter if 2. is Eruption, Liquid Lightning or Blazing Spear, it's all the same playstyle.

So where is the variety? Where are unique (somehow viable) specs? They're non existent.

Please describe a version of the game which would be different. In every rpg whether MMO or otherwise that Ive played the concept is thw same. You reduce mob health from 100% to zero. You use skills that deal damage directly, you use aoes that stay on target or aoes that stay on ground. What is it you are looking for?

GawdSB · February 2017

Except Dk doesn't have an execute so there's that.

Sweetpea704 · February 2017

Well, don't be a sheep, following the meta. I don't use burning spellweave. I do more of an ulti build on one toon and a pet build on another. None of my toons use the thief mundus stone. Only my healer is sort of the meta, with Elegant and SPC. I would rather folks quit encouraging ZOS to fix everything. There will always be a "meta" because folks would rather find a build on YouTube instead of testing things out for themselves. Which is fine. It is good to have choices.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2017

Have you played all 4 magic classes? I assure you, they all play very differently.

You aren't describing an issue with variety among magic builds, you are simply describing how a meta build is created for damage dealers, and then saying it's all the same. Of course the principals are the same.

What set is going to buff my base damage? Well, I need spell damage, and BSW is best at doing that. You then look to jewelry and say, well there are two sets that give me minor slayer, better get one of those (Aether/Moondancer). Then you look to a monster set to fit you playstyle because they are all strong for a 2 piece set, even post nerf. There is variety at least here among classes.

Next you look to how to build a rotation, which you described. Find a spammable (only sorcs and NBs use the same one, and the latter doesnt have to), then you find some buffs, some debuffs, and some DOTs. The only consistencies there are weapon skills, because everyone can access them, and potion or group buffs. Otherwise again, they are all different.

I think you are complaining about a problem that really cant be solved, without creating a whole new type of combat system. Also, stam builds are much more similar. mSorc vs MDK is night and day. NB is prob the most complicated of any of them, and Templar plays completely different than the rest.

srfrogg23 · February 2017

Seraphayel wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

2: I am only playing my character, not everyone else's, so I don't get bored with the builds. I'm more focused on keeping my dps up than anything else, so watching what other people do isn't high on my list of things to do.

Don't you see the same issue here? You can play your class but you are still forced to use 2, 3, 4, 5 skills that you need to use every time just because they are too good. And in the end it results in the same spec with little tweaks and changes. So it really doesn't matter if you're just playing you're class, in the end it's mostly the same. I mean players like Alcast (thanks for the good work by the way) is providing different builds but in the end they tend to be the same. As I said, I don't want to discuss Stamina here, especially not when it's even worse then Magicka.

As I said, I played all of the classes. Sure not all of them in endgame but I can already play their “end game specs“ in lower levels and it really doesn't matter if I play the DK or if I play the Templar, I am using similar skills and the feeling is nearly the same. It doesn't matter if I throw Blazing Spear instead of Eruption, the feeling and the gameplay is identical except the animation.

@Callous2208 I said you can arrange the bars with every class using similar skills so that you don't even need to see or know the bars, you only need to know one layout:

Main Bar:

1. AoE DoT
2. AoE DoT
3. Filler
4. Finisher / Proc
5. Buff
6. Ultimate

So 1. is always Blockade, 5. is always Inner Light, 6. is always Meteor. 2, 3 and 4 might be different skills but doing the exact same thing. Doesn't matter if 2. is Eruption, Liquid Lightning or Blazing Spear, it's all the same playstyle.

So where is the variety? Where are unique (somehow viable) specs? They're non existent.

Well, in my defense, I'm pretty utilitarian about this kind of thing. I don't feel forced to use these things. I choose to use them because they work. I don't see that as an issue.

Calboy · February 2017

Every class is essentially the same just with different names for abilities

Pvp bar
Gap close
Main spam
Execute
Dot
Utility
Same ultimate everyone else uses

Heal
Sorcery
Armor buff
Utility
Utility
Same ultimate everyone else uses

And generally the utility spots either are the same across classes or offer a slightly different flavour.

The only difference are the passives and how effective each class is at doing certain things.

Faulgor · February 2017

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

2: I am only playing my character, not everyone else's, so I don't get bored with the builds. I'm more focused on keeping my dps up than anything else, so watching what other people do isn't high on my list of things to do.

Don't you see the same issue here? You can play your class but you are still forced to use 2, 3, 4, 5 skills that you need to use every time just because they are too good. And in the end it results in the same spec with little tweaks and changes. So it really doesn't matter if you're just playing you're class, in the end it's mostly the same. I mean players like Alcast (thanks for the good work by the way) is providing different builds but in the end they tend to be the same. As I said, I don't want to discuss Stamina here, especially not when it's even worse then Magicka.

As I said, I played all of the classes. Sure not all of them in endgame but I can already play their “end game specs“ in lower levels and it really doesn't matter if I play the DK or if I play the Templar, I am using similar skills and the feeling is nearly the same. It doesn't matter if I throw Blazing Spear instead of Eruption, the feeling and the gameplay is identical except the animation.

@Callous2208 I said you can arrange the bars with every class using similar skills so that you don't even need to see or know the bars, you only need to know one layout:

Main Bar:

1. AoE DoT
2. AoE DoT
3. Filler
4. Finisher / Proc
5. Buff
6. Ultimate

So 1. is always Blockade, 5. is always Inner Light, 6. is always Meteor. 2, 3 and 4 might be different skills but doing the exact same thing. Doesn't matter if 2. is Eruption, Liquid Lightning or Blazing Spear, it's all the same playstyle.

So where is the variety? Where are unique (somehow viable) specs? They're non existent.

Please describe a version of the game which would be different. In every rpg whether MMO or otherwise that Ive played the concept is thw same. You reduce mob health from 100% to zero. You use skills that deal damage directly, you use aoes that stay on target or aoes that stay on ground. What is it you are looking for?

Sure, if you break it down to its essentials, it's always the same. The key IMO is how that damage is applied, and I don't see a tremendous amount of variety in that regard in ESO. You have either DoT or direct damage, and single target or AoE, so every build ends up applying 1-2 dots and then weaving a spamable, magicka and stamina alike. I think the only builds that deviate from that are heavy attack builds, and I think those have been nerfed with the last update.

I don't have that much experience with other MMOs, but usually skills have other factors as well. Cast time and resource cost are present in ESO, but wholly underused in terms of build diversity. More reactive play that requires the execution of specific combos would be another possibility, along with more skill- and not gear-based procs (I belive Crystal Fragments is the only skill of that sort), as well as more dedicated pet builds (fingers crossed for Warden). Light and heavy attacks could also be utilized more besides their necessity for weaving.

90% of ESO's combat are spamable weaving and AoE spam. I'm sure there are more areas to explore.

idk · February 2017

Seraphayel wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

2: I am only playing my character, not everyone else's, so I don't get bored with the builds. I'm more focused on keeping my dps up than anything else, so watching what other people do isn't high on my list of things to do.

Don't you see the same issue here? You can play your class but you are still forced to use 2, 3, 4, 5 skills that you need to use every time just because they are too good. And in the end it results in the same spec with little tweaks and changes. So it really doesn't matter if you're just playing you're class, in the end it's mostly the same. I mean players like Alcast (thanks for the good work by the way) is providing different builds but in the end they tend to be the same. As I said, I don't want to discuss Stamina here, especially not when it's even worse then Magicka.

As I said, I played all of the classes. Sure not all of them in endgame but I can already play their “end game specs“ in lower levels and it really doesn't matter if I play the DK or if I play the Templar, I am using similar skills and the feeling is nearly the same. It doesn't matter if I throw Blazing Spear instead of Eruption, the feeling and the gameplay is identical except the animation.

@Callous2208 I said you can arrange the bars with every class using similar skills so that you don't even need to see or know the bars, you only need to know one layout:

Main Bar:

1. AoE DoT
2. AoE DoT
3. Filler
4. Finisher / Proc
5. Buff
6. Ultimate

So 1. is always Blockade, 5. is always Inner Light, 6. is always Meteor. 2, 3 and 4 might be different skills but doing the exact same thing. Doesn't matter if 2. is Eruption, Liquid Lightning or Blazing Spear, it's all the same playstyle.

So where is the variety? Where are unique (somehow viable) specs? They're non existent.

I think you need to find something else to do with your time. It is clear that ESO is not for you and this ludicrous idea you have that the very unique class skills in every builds is the same merely because they do damage.

Apherius · February 2017

Nha i don't like how it is , and it's why i will lock my Chat box in the game ... mute HL players on my ts , and Discover and play the Warden class How i want !

jarydf · February 2017

Unless you are running with a trial group that is relying on you to absolutely max out your dps, you can play whatever build you want to make up. Your dps might be a bit lower but you will clear content just fine. If that means your enjoyment of the game goes up, great. You can also spec out in the meta but have other setups for when you want a change. My mag sorc wears medium night mothers embrace and night terror when doing dark brotherhood and thieves guild content. Sometimes I will forget to change it back and later realise I just soloed craglorn group content in the wrong gear. It might feel a little bit harder but it was probably more fun because I didn't just face roll it. Sometimes I do overland content with no weapons. That is fun too. It is a game. Play with it.

dday3six · February 2017

Build diversity is going to taper at the top. No matter how hard you try, this mythical concept of maximum variety, cannot be hamfisted into top tier.

zaria · February 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Astanphaeus wrote: »

You're playing PvE, of course it is cookie cutter boringness.

And of course there are no cookie-cutter PvP build are there?

Oh, wait....

All The Best

Yes but PvP is way more complex than PvE DD where only issue is to keep practical dps as high as possible, you obviously need to handle the boss mechanic but that is pretty irrelevant for the DD rotation.

dday3six · February 2017

zaria wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Astanphaeus wrote: »

You're playing PvE, of course it is cookie cutter boringness.

And of course there are no cookie-cutter PvP build are there?

Oh, wait....

All The Best

Yes but PvP is way more complex than PvE DD where only issue is to keep practical dps as high as possible, you obviously need to handle the boss mechanic but that is pretty irrelevant for the DD rotation.

Haven't done many Vet Trials, have you?

hedna123b14_ESO · February 2017

Faulgor wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

2: I am only playing my character, not everyone else's, so I don't get bored with the builds. I'm more focused on keeping my dps up than anything else, so watching what other people do isn't high on my list of things to do.

Don't you see the same issue here? You can play your class but you are still forced to use 2, 3, 4, 5 skills that you need to use every time just because they are too good. And in the end it results in the same spec with little tweaks and changes. So it really doesn't matter if you're just playing you're class, in the end it's mostly the same. I mean players like Alcast (thanks for the good work by the way) is providing different builds but in the end they tend to be the same. As I said, I don't want to discuss Stamina here, especially not when it's even worse then Magicka.

As I said, I played all of the classes. Sure not all of them in endgame but I can already play their “end game specs“ in lower levels and it really doesn't matter if I play the DK or if I play the Templar, I am using similar skills and the feeling is nearly the same. It doesn't matter if I throw Blazing Spear instead of Eruption, the feeling and the gameplay is identical except the animation.

@Callous2208 I said you can arrange the bars with every class using similar skills so that you don't even need to see or know the bars, you only need to know one layout:

Main Bar:

1. AoE DoT
2. AoE DoT
3. Filler
4. Finisher / Proc
5. Buff
6. Ultimate

So 1. is always Blockade, 5. is always Inner Light, 6. is always Meteor. 2, 3 and 4 might be different skills but doing the exact same thing. Doesn't matter if 2. is Eruption, Liquid Lightning or Blazing Spear, it's all the same playstyle.

So where is the variety? Where are unique (somehow viable) specs? They're non existent.

Please describe a version of the game which would be different. In every rpg whether MMO or otherwise that Ive played the concept is thw same. You reduce mob health from 100% to zero. You use skills that deal damage directly, you use aoes that stay on target or aoes that stay on ground. What is it you are looking for?

Sure, if you break it down to its essentials, it's always the same. The key IMO is how that damage is applied, and I don't see a tremendous amount of variety in that regard in ESO. You have either DoT or direct damage, and single target or AoE, so every build ends up applying 1-2 dots and then weaving a spamable, magicka and stamina alike. I think the only builds that deviate from that are heavy attack builds, and I think those have been nerfed with the last update.

I don't have that much experience with other MMOs, but usually skills have other factors as well. Cast time and resource cost are present in ESO, but wholly underused in terms of build diversity. More reactive play that requires the execution of specific combos would be another possibility, along with more skill- and not gear-based procs (I belive Crystal Fragments is the only skill of that sort), as well as more dedicated pet builds (fingers crossed for Warden). Light and heavy attacks could also be utilized more besides their necessity for weaving.

90% of ESO's combat are spamable weaving and AoE spam. I'm sure there are more areas to explore.

On the contrary ESO's combat is the most realistic I have encountered without clearly defined roles it is very much like a real fight, where although there is some comparmentalization inbolved there is a ton of self management aggro and skill wise. The dynamic combat tests reaction time, positioning adjustment and a robust theorycrafting system based on mathematical analysis and diversity of choice (could be more choice of course, but is still fairly exciting). To be able to pull off truly record breaking DPas one would need a proper rotation which at time is not as staright forward as one would think and specific sets.

jarydf · February 2017

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

To be able to pull off truly record breaking DPas one would need a proper rotation which at time is not as staright forward as one would think and specific sets.

That is a good point. You can have the same gear and skill setups but if you can't pull off the rotation, it might be worse dps than a different setup where you can consistently get the rotation off every time.

hedna123b14_ESO · February 2017

jarydf wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

To be able to pull off truly record breaking DPas one would need a proper rotation which at time is not as staright forward as one would think and specific sets.

That is a good point. You can have the same gear and skill setups but if you can't pull off the rotation, it might be worse dps than a different setup where you can consistently get the rotation off every time.

And with eso's different timed abilities the right rotation is extremely important

billp_ESO · February 2017

I tend to agree with the OP. We only really have 5 skills to play with (except everyone needs the mage light skill, and everyone uses blockade from the destro staff, you really only have 3 skills to play with).

This is a direct result of the game being designed around the console controller. It boils down to just a couple of skills that differentiate the classes.

In MMO's, I tend to like to play the utility character; you have a ton of different skills and the fun is picking the right one at the right time. ESO prohibits this kind of play.

raglau · February 2017

There are two key reasons for this.

Firstly, whenever you have variance of components, only a few (or even one) 'build' of those components is viable in a highly functional sense. i.e, we can throw all the components that make a jumbo jet into the air and have a near infinite number of possible assemblies, but only a small handful will fly, and maybe only one or two will fly LHR to JFK in 8 hours without crashing. Or consider all of the extinct variants of human being then compare yourself to all ones natural selection has chosen to live into this generation, you're all pretty similar. ESO builds are really just natural selection with the human as the selecting agent.

Secondly, due to ESO catering for PvP, ZOS always have their eye on balance. It's a lot easier to balance builds when there's only a handful of core skills, but which you disguise with different names and animations. If the game was pure PvE it could have far more variety, but their strategy of 'play the way you want', tends to mean each class needs access to whatever a player may want in terms of skills. And even if this was not the case, you'd still end up with a few viable builds by end-game, because you're always seeking the edge as a player and even just 500 less DPS is something most people won't put up with if they know they can tweak to get more. So they'll tend to gravitate to the same builds.

Whilst there are a huge amount of possibilities, only a handful work when it comes down to it.

dday3six · February 2017

billp_ESO wrote: »

I tend to agree with the OP. We only really have 5 skills to play with (except everyone needs the mage light skill, and everyone uses blockade from the destro staff, you really only have 3 skills to play with).

This is a direct result of the game being designed around the console controller. It boils down to just a couple of skills that differentiate the classes.

In MMO's, I tend to like to play the utility character; you have a ton of different skills and the fun is picking the right one at the right time. ESO prohibits this kind of play.

Don't try to pass it off on consoles. FFXIV was also developed with controllers in mind and has plenty of room for skills.

Krileon · February 2017

I'm a pet build, which actually works. I'm not the same!

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=5898

FloppyTouch · February 2017

Never played an mdk in pve our rotation is one of the hardest to keep and to get the highest lvl of dps due to DoT abilities and there weird cool downs even harder in console bc no buff icons

brandonv516 · February 2017

I exclusively play magicka characters and have never found this play style boring. However, you have successfully made it feel like I am playing a depressing and pointless game. Words hurt.

KingDuncanVII · February 2017

They're all the same because we all share a majority of the skill trees. I wish it was similar to Neverwinter where classes are truly unique: you can't use the same ability another class can use. I like ESO better overall for other reasons but when it comes to class and build diversity they have ESO beat. Not to mention each class on NW has 'paragons' that adds for even more diversity within the class itself and other people also using that class.

Banana · February 2017

That's the balance

S1ipperyJim · February 2017

"Whether it be the sweeping eagle in his flight, or the open apple-blossom, the toiling work-horse, the blithe swan, the branching oak, the winding stream at its base, the drifting clouds, over all the coursing sun, form ever follows function, and this is the law. Where function does not change, form does not change. The granite rocks, the ever-brooding hills, remain for ages; the lightning lives, comes into shape, and dies, in a twinkling.

It is the pervading law of all things organic and inorganic, of all things physical and metaphysical, of all things human and all things superhuman, of all true manifestations of the head, of the heart, of the soul, that the life is recognizable in its expression, that form ever follows function."